Southeastern Railway staving off Oyster PAYG
 

I'm at the end of my tether with my local train operating company,
Southeastern Railway (SER hereafter).

They only took over the franchise 9 months ago but they signed up to it
just before the government decided that all future franchises would
mandate acceptance of Oyster PAYG, which basically means that if SER
won't adopt Oyster voluntarily, they won't be legally compelled to for
something like ten years! (As if we didn't suffer enough through the
Connex years...)

Anyway, on hearing recently of the Mayor's offer of £20m to get Oyster
PAYG off the ground for National Rail operators, and specifically when I
heard that c2c were taking it up, I contacted SER (as I had done during
South Eastern's publicly owned period, to no avail) to ask about their
plans for Oyster PAYG, with specific reference to the offer.

They came back with the most outdated and in places downright dishonest
stream of pathetic arguments against taking up the Mayor's offer you can
imagine. All the golden oldies were the increased risk of fraud at
ungated stations (as if bits of the Tube and the DLR can't cope with
that); a claim that *no* NR operator could possibly take up the offer at
the moment for lots of reasons (ridiculous when c2c had made their
announcement a day or two earlier); and the outright lie that the £20m
was "only a loan" so would have to be "paid back with interest".

I passed the response to TfL for comment, replying in the meantime with
my considered opinions and queries about their laughable response. I
also replied again when Chiltern took up the offer a few days later,
pointing out again that they were wrong about other NR operators; and
finally when TfL replied (saying that they had contacted ATOC to
complain about the misinformation SER were giving their customers -
excellent!) I passed their response to SER too.

My three e-mails were sent on 18, 25 and 27 January, but still no
response was forthcoming today, and the deadline is looming, so tonight
I rang up their customer service line. After being kept on hold for five
to ten minutes, I got through to someone who could basically tell me
absolutely nothing beyond the fact that because my e-mails raised
complicated issues, they were all at "Head Office, in a queue, to be
dealt with in order of receipt". Apparently "they have a lot of stuff"
at Head Office, so they can't tell me when it's likely to be responded
to. I suspect it will be some time after the 31 Jan deadline.

Is there anything I can do to get some action out of this lazy,
unhelpful, irritating company? My wife (she's the commuter, I'm the
leisure traveller) is going to SER's Meet the Managers session on
Thursday to have a rant but that's the day after the deadline has
passed. Why isn't there more publicity for how selfish/greedy/obstinate
the NR operators who aren't taking up this deal are being? How can we
get some? It's so frustrating. Is there anything I can do, either to
help get them to accept the offer, or to get them reprimanded for their
misinformation and unhelpfulness?

Apologies if you've read this whole post hoping it was going to get to a
really interesting point of some sort. I wanted to get this all off my
chest in the vain hope that somehow writing all this down would lead to
me, or someone reading it, having an amazing idea that would guarantee
that SER would accept Oyster PAYG within weeks. I fear I was being a
little optimistic.

*sigh*

Sorry again,

Paul

Southeastern Railway staving off Oyster PAYG
 

On 29 Jan, 19:42, Paul Speller wrote:
I'm at the end of my tether with my local train operating company,
Southeastern Railway (SER hereafter).

They only took over the franchise 9 months ago but they signed up to it
just before the government decided that all future franchises would
mandate acceptance of Oyster PAYG, which basically means that if SER
won't adopt Oyster voluntarily, they won't be legally compelled to for
something like ten years! (As if we didn't suffer enough through the
Connex years...)



Interestingly, their magazine/leaflet thing, published recently,
mentions the zonal fares adoption as 'aiding the future introduction
of Oyster'.

Southeastern Railway staving off Oyster PAYG
 

In ,
Paul Speller typed:

Anyway, on hearing recently of the Mayor's offer of £20m to get Oyster
PAYG off the ground for National Rail operators, and specifically
when I heard that c2c were taking it up, I contacted SER (as I had
done during South Eastern's publicly owned period, to no avail) to
ask about their plans for Oyster PAYG, with specific reference to the
offer.

Southeastern have a little more to organise than c2c do before they can
start Oyster PAYG. They are implementing the zonal fares in the same
timeframe that other companies are. I would be surprised if they lag
behind other similar companies in implementing Oyster PAYG. It may be
that your communications have only been reaching people who do not have
the whole picture on the subject.



--
Bob

Southeastern Railway staving off Oyster PAYG
 

"Paul Speller" wrote in message
...
I'm at the end of my tether with my local train operating company,
Southeastern Railway (SER hereafter).

They only took over the franchise 9 months ago but they signed up to it
just before the government decided that all future franchises would
mandate acceptance of Oyster PAYG, which basically means that if SER
won't adopt Oyster voluntarily, they won't be legally compelled to for
something like ten years! (As if we didn't suffer enough through the
Connex years...)

Question: would someone who currently has an SER annual season ticket issued
for travel between a station within Greater London and 'London Terminals'
only (i.e. no bus or tube travel at all) end up paying more or less for
their weekday only, peak hours only travel to and from London if Oyster were
introduced at SER-served stations?

Southeastern Railway staving off Oyster PAYG
 

On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:42:53 +0000, Paul Speller
wrote:

I'm at the end of my tether with my local train operating company,
Southeastern Railway (SER hereafter).

They only took over the franchise 9 months ago but they signed up to it
just before the government decided that all future franchises would
mandate acceptance of Oyster PAYG, which basically means that if SER
won't adopt Oyster voluntarily, they won't be legally compelled to for
something like ten years! (As if we didn't suffer enough through the
Connex years...)

Anyway, on hearing recently of the Mayor's offer of £20m to get Oyster
PAYG off the ground for National Rail operators, and specifically when I
heard that c2c were taking it up, I contacted SER (as I had done during
South Eastern's publicly owned period, to no avail) to ask about their
plans for Oyster PAYG, with specific reference to the offer.

They came back with the most outdated and in places downright dishonest
stream of pathetic arguments against taking up the Mayor's offer you can
imagine. All the golden oldies were the increased risk of fraud at
ungated stations (as if bits of the Tube and the DLR can't cope with
that); a claim that *no* NR operator could possibly take up the offer at
the moment for lots of reasons (ridiculous when c2c had made their
announcement a day or two earlier); and the outright lie that the £20m
was "only a loan" so would have to be "paid back with interest".

I passed the response to TfL for comment, replying in the meantime with
my considered opinions and queries about their laughable response. I
also replied again when Chiltern took up the offer a few days later,
pointing out again that they were wrong about other NR operators; and
finally when TfL replied (saying that they had contacted ATOC to
complain about the misinformation SER were giving their customers -
excellent!) I passed their response to SER too.

My three e-mails were sent on 18, 25 and 27 January, but still no
response was forthcoming today, and the deadline is looming, so tonight
I rang up their customer service line. After being kept on hold for five
to ten minutes, I got through to someone who could basically tell me
absolutely nothing beyond the fact that because my e-mails raised
complicated issues, they were all at "Head Office, in a queue, to be
dealt with in order of receipt". Apparently "they have a lot of stuff"
at Head Office, so they can't tell me when it's likely to be responded
to. I suspect it will be some time after the 31 Jan deadline.

Is there anything I can do to get some action out of this lazy,
unhelpful, irritating company? My wife (she's the commuter, I'm the
leisure traveller) is going to SER's Meet the Managers session on
Thursday to have a rant but that's the day after the deadline has
passed. Why isn't there more publicity for how selfish/greedy/obstinate
the NR operators who aren't taking up this deal are being? How can we
get some? It's so frustrating. Is there anything I can do, either to
help get them to accept the offer, or to get them reprimanded for their
misinformation and unhelpfulness?

Apologies if you've read this whole post hoping it was going to get to a
really interesting point of some sort. I wanted to get this all off my
chest in the vain hope that somehow writing all this down would lead to
me, or someone reading it, having an amazing idea that would guarantee
that SER would accept Oyster PAYG within weeks. I fear I was being a
little optimistic.

I very much doubt SER could achieve Oyster acceptance within weeks even
if they were willing to do so. The three TOCs who have shown an apparent
willingness to leap on board are those who have shown either the most
enthusiasm for the concept from the early days or who have the smallest
"learning curve" due to other initiatives they have implemented. It is
also worth noting that the TOCs in question are all relatively self
contained.

C2C were always enthusiastic and so were Chiltern. Both were very happy
to implement gating at their stations while Silverlink were less so but
I think they "saw the light" eventually. The impending transfer to TfL
control makes their recent agreement for the Metro lines a no brainer. I
understand C2C and Chiltern have Cubic supplied ticket selling equipment
which will make Oyster integration easier. I don't know whether any
other TIS has been accredited by both TfL and ATOC RSP as being able to
first issue and update Oyster cards.

To be fair to the other TOCs this is a very important issue for them and
for their passengers. Despite the rhetoric that is flying around between
the two "sides" in this great debate it is essential that everyone
participates in Oyster on a basis that is well understood and which does
not contain unacceptable risks. If people rush at this then it is likely
to go wrong with ticket selling staff and passengers being the poor
people who will deal with the consequences of ticket systems not
working, cards not working, ticket gates and validators doing the wrong
thing and passengers being mischarged. It is all too easy to do and
that's before you get to the issues about revenue assumptions in
franchise bids, running costs, installation, commission on sales,
provision of usage information, system security, training and education
and procurement issues for the equipment and whether compatibility can
actually be achieved. The Mayor is presenting Oyster as something that
is incredibly easy to adopt and make happen - I think that is a gross
simplification.

While I'd dearly love to see all the TOCs accepting Oyster inside the
zones and beyond I think everyone is being done a disservice by the
current flurry of misinformation and gross oversimplification of what is
involved and what is at stake. I think all the London TOCs will join in
but we are at the stage of brinkmanship now and it will be interesting
to see who "blinks first" or whether the DfT broker a settlement. I
realise the above doesn't help your "rant" but I think getting cross is
not likely to make things happen any faster. You are owed a sensible and
clear explanation by SER though.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Southeastern Railway staving off Oyster PAYG
 

On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:04:35 -0000, Nautilus wrote:

Question: would someone who currently has an SER annual season ticket issued
for travel between a station within Greater London and 'London Terminals'
only (i.e. no bus or tube travel at all) end up paying more or less for
their weekday only, peak hours only travel to and from London if Oyster were
introduced at SER-served stations?

Either the same or less. You'd have a choice between renewing the
season, or using PAYG each day if that works out cheaper.

Southeastern Railway staving off Oyster PAYG
 

"Paul Speller" wrote in message
...
I'm at the end of my tether with my local train operating company,
Southeastern Railway (SER hereafter).

They only took over the franchise 9 months ago but they signed up to it
just before the government decided that all future franchises would
mandate acceptance of Oyster PAYG, which basically means that if SER
won't adopt Oyster voluntarily, they won't be legally compelled to for
something like ten years! (As if we didn't suffer enough through the
Connex years...)

...

Is there anything I can do to get some action out of this lazy,
unhelpful, irritating company? My wife (she's the commuter, I'm the
leisure traveller) is going to SER's Meet the Managers session on
Thursday to have a rant but that's the day after the deadline has
passed. Why isn't there more publicity for how selfish/greedy/obstinate
the NR operators who aren't taking up this deal are being? How can we
get some? It's so frustrating. Is there anything I can do, either to
help get them to accept the offer, or to get them reprimanded for their
misinformation and unhelpfulness?

Don't believe all that one-sided Mayoral propaganda though. There's a lot
more to implementing PAYG for our TOC than a one-off £20m bribe to adopt the
system.

As a Southeastern commuter from Bexley, I have to say I couldn't care less
whether they implement Oyster PAYG or not. What I do care about, though,
are the outrageous hikes in point-to-point rail fares for Greater London
services in Southeastern's domain to make way for Oyster (60%+ increase in
the rail fare to Sidcup from Bexley, and in Bromley some fares have gone up
by over 70%!). But because these increases are in Bexley and Bromley,
nobody in TfL or central London really gives a damn of course.

Give me non-zonal fares and paper tickets any day! And while we're at it,
give me freedom from TfL and the Mayor of London's interference ;-)

Nick

Southeastern Railway staving off Oyster PAYG
 

"asdf" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:04:35 -0000, Nautilus wrote:

Question: would someone who currently has an SER annual season ticket
issued
for travel between a station within Greater London and 'London Terminals'
only (i.e. no bus or tube travel at all) end up paying more or less for
their weekday only, peak hours only travel to and from London if Oyster
were
introduced at SER-served stations?

Either the same or less. You'd have a choice between renewing the
season, or using PAYG each day if that works out cheaper.

Thanks to the "zonal fares" project though, lots of the Southeastern rail
seasons have been ramped up enormously to match (60/70% increase in
point-to-point seasons in some cases). PAYG would have been a *lot* more
expensive if this hadn't happened. Now the prices will be much closer...

But of course child-rate fares are now much lower, so we can subsidise all
those teenage vandals who wreck the interiors of the trains. Welcome to the
crazy world of TfL.

Nick

Southeastern Railway staving off Oyster PAYG
 

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

To be fair to the other TOCs this is a very important issue for them and
for their passengers. Despite the rhetoric that is flying around between
the two "sides" in this great debate it is essential that everyone
participates in Oyster on a basis that is well understood and which does
not contain unacceptable risks. If people rush at this then it is likely
to go wrong with ticket selling staff and passengers being the poor
people who will deal with the consequences of ticket systems not
working, cards not working, ticket gates and validators doing the wrong
thing and passengers being mischarged. It is all too easy to do and
that's before you get to the issues about revenue assumptions in
franchise bids, running costs, installation, commission on sales,
provision of usage information, system security, training and education
and procurement issues for the equipment and whether compatibility can
actually be achieved. The Mayor is presenting Oyster as something that
is incredibly easy to adopt and make happen - I think that is a gross
simplification.

For the SE TOCs all the other nationally available ticket types still have
to be available for people making long distance journies too. It all looks
quite straightforward if you think only of a journey from Kent to a zonal
destination, where anti-fraud measures over the years have led to the
situation where an overnight return is usually no longer sold, and you have
to have two singles - a bit like LU really. But add all the longer duration
advance purchase stuff into the mix, and first class availability on some
but not all services, and railcards, the ticketing problem is an order of
magnitude more complex. I imagine a major question exercising the TOCs is
where to draw their Oyster boundary - notwithstanding that SWT are to
introduce it throughout - but will it be zonal, payg, all ticket types? Who
can tell...

Paul S

Southeastern Railway staving off Oyster PAYG
 

"Nick" wrote in message
. uk...


Thanks to the "zonal fares" project though, lots of the Southeastern rail
seasons have been ramped up enormously to match (60/70% increase in
point-to-point seasons in some cases). PAYG would have been a *lot* more
expensive if this hadn't happened. Now the prices will be much closer...


Are you sure about season tickets being 'ramped up' due to the introduction
of zonal fares? All the info published so far by NR states the exact
opposite, ie that zonal fare changes only apply to SDS SDR and CDR ticket
types.

Paul

Southeastern Railway staving off Oyster PAYG
 

On 30 Jan, 10:08, "Paul Scott" wrote:
It all looks
quite straightforward if you think only of a journey from Kent to a zonal
destination, where anti-fraud measures over the years have led to the
situation where an overnight return is usually no longer sold, and you have
to have two singles - a bit like LU really. But add all the longer duration
advance purchase stuff into the mix, and first class availability on some
but not all services, and railcards, the ticketing problem is an order of
magnitude more complex. I imagine a major question exercising the TOCs is
where to draw their Oyster boundary - notwithstanding that SWT are to
introduce it throughout - but will it be zonal, payg, all ticket types? Who
can tell...

On SE trains it could be quite easy, I'd have thought. Put Dartford
into Zone 6, and that's most of the Dartford commuter services
immediately included. The Hayes & Orpington services don't go beyond
Zone 6.

Patrick

Southeastern Railway staving off Oyster PAYG
 

wrote in message
ups.com...


On 30 Jan, 10:08, "Paul Scott" wrote:
It all looks
quite straightforward if you think only of a journey from Kent to a zonal
destination, where anti-fraud measures over the years have led to the
situation where an overnight return is usually no longer sold, and you
have
to have two singles - a bit like LU really. But add all the longer
duration
advance purchase stuff into the mix, and first class availability on some
but not all services, and railcards, the ticketing problem is an order
of
magnitude more complex. I imagine a major question exercising the TOCs
is
where to draw their Oyster boundary - notwithstanding that SWT are to
introduce it throughout - but will it be zonal, payg, all ticket types?
Who
can tell...

On SE trains it could be quite easy, I'd have thought. Put Dartford
into Zone 6, and that's most of the Dartford commuter services
immediately included. The Hayes & Orpington services don't go beyond
Zone 6.


But why assume zonal fares and then only concentric from London? What about
the mysterious commuters who don't go into London - SWT have been tasked by
the DfT to provide 'Oyster style' ticketing throughout their area - now
including the Isle of Wight!

Paul

Southeastern Railway staving off Oyster PAYG
 

If people rush at this then it is likely
to go wrong with ticket selling staff and passengers being the poor
people who will deal with the consequences of ticket systems not
working, cards not working, ticket gates and validators doing the wrong
thing and passengers being mischarged. It is all too easy to do and
that's before you get to the issues about revenue assumptions in
franchise bids, running costs, installation, commission on sales,
provision of usage information, system security, training and education
and procurement issues for the equipment and whether compatibility can
actually be achieved.

I think the frustration is around the fact that Oyster has been around
for years now and they are only just starting to work it out. Rushing
it would have been bringing it in 3 or so years ago; by now SER
passengers have a right to the integrated system.

Southeastern Railway staving off Oyster PAYG
 

On 30 Jan 2007 10:40:57 -0800, "whos2091"
wrote:

If people rush at this then it is likely
to go wrong with ticket selling staff and passengers being the poor
people who will deal with the consequences of ticket systems not
working, cards not working, ticket gates and validators doing the wrong
thing and passengers being mischarged. It is all too easy to do and
that's before you get to the issues about revenue assumptions in
franchise bids, running costs, installation, commission on sales,
provision of usage information, system security, training and education
and procurement issues for the equipment and whether compatibility can
actually be achieved.

I think the frustration is around the fact that Oyster has been around
for years now and they are only just starting to work it out. Rushing
it would have been bringing it in 3 or so years ago; by now SER
passengers have a right to the integrated system.

The current management of SER have not been in place for much time. For
whatever reason they opted not to include Oyster in their franchise and
no one else considered it was worth imposing on them. I think it highly
doubtful that the public sector controlled South East trains would have
been able to secure the funding to implement Oyster and I expect it
would have perceived as far too much of a risk if it was part committed
at the time of retendering the franchise.

As I have posted more times than I care to remember (almost all of) the
TOCs were disinterested in Oyster more than 8 years ago and didn't
believe it would happen. To be fair there was some doubt as to whether
LT would proceed with the scheme at that point. Only C2C and Chiltern
showed any real interest in it while Silverlink and SWT were a lukewarm
but were interested in gates from the fraud prevention viewpoint. The
more traditional TOCs on the Eastern and Southern regions were simply
not interested at all. What we then called SVT but is now PAYG was seen
as being a dreadful idea and huge threat to their revenue base. It
wouldn't surprise me at all to know if these fears remained.

In some respects work expended on trying to get Oyster PAYG to work on
NR over the last three years may well have been wasted given that the
introduction of tube - train tickets and now zonal fares for NR only
have greatly simplified matters in terms of fares. As someone else
pointed out there are a load of other issues such as season tickets,
relationships between in zone and out of zone and discounts and ticket
classes to be worked out.

It will be interesting to see what press releases fly around tomorrow
and from whom given the mayoral deadline.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Southeastern Railway staving off Oyster PAYG
 

All the golden oldies were the increased risk of fraud
at
ungated stations (as if bits of the Tube and the DLR can't cope with
that);

I've never really grasped this often seen argument. I just can't see how
Oyster is any different from paper tickets in this respect. What am I
missing?

Southeastern Railway staving off Oyster PAYG
 

"Graham J" wrote in message
...
All the golden oldies were the increased risk of fraud
at
ungated stations (as if bits of the Tube and the DLR can't cope with
that);

I've never really grasped this often seen argument. I just can't see how
Oyster is any different from paper tickets in this respect. What am I
missing?

I get on at gated station and swipe in my Oyster.

I get off at ungated station and if there is someone there
I swipe out with my Oyster. If there isn't, I walk off and pay
the Oyster 'penalty' fare.

Of course, this only works if the actual fare is less than the
penalty but there are some journeys that will be.

tim

Southeastern Railway staving off Oyster PAYG
 

On Jan 31, 7:31 pm, "tim....." wrote:
"Graham J" wrote in message

...

All the golden oldies were the increased risk of fraud
at
ungated stations (as if bits of the Tube and the DLR can't cope with
that);

I've never really grasped this often seen argument. I just can't see how
Oyster is any different from paper tickets in this respect. What am I
missing?

I get on at gated station and swipe in my Oyster.

I get off at ungated station and if there is someone there
I swipe out with my Oyster. If there isn't, I walk off and pay
the Oyster 'penalty' fare.

Of course, this only works if the actual fare is less than the
penalty but there are some journeys that will be.

tim



No no; we are going to find that the price of getting the TOCs to
accept Oyster PAYG is going to be a minimum cash fare for any journey
(eg Bexley to Crayford) of £400.

Southeastern Railway staving off Oyster PAYG
 

"tim....." wrote in message
...

"Graham J" wrote in message
...
All the golden oldies were the increased risk of fraud
at
ungated stations (as if bits of the Tube and the DLR can't cope with
that);

I've never really grasped this often seen argument. I just can't see how
Oyster is any different from paper tickets in this respect. What am I
missing?

I get on at gated station and swipe in my Oyster.

I get off at ungated station and if there is someone there
I swipe out with my Oyster. If there isn't, I walk off and pay
the Oyster 'penalty' fare.

Of course, this only works if the actual fare is less than the
penalty but there are some journeys that will be.

and of course I meant to say more.

tim


tim

Southeastern Railway staving off Oyster PAYG
 

All the golden oldies were the increased risk of fraud at
ungated stations (as if bits of the Tube and the DLR can't cope with
that);

I've never really grasped this often seen argument. I just can't see how
Oyster is any different from paper tickets in this respect. What am I
missing?

I get on at gated station and swipe in my Oyster.

I get off at ungated station and if there is someone there
I swipe out with my Oyster. If there isn't, I walk off and pay
the Oyster 'penalty' fare.

Of course, this only works if the actual fare is less than the
penalty but there are some journeys that will be.

I had considered that (and I acknowledge you meant more, not less) but
arguably the Oyster 'penalty' fare would be set at a level where any
journeys costing more would be very much in the minority. To me it seems
the 'penalty' fare capability of Oyster at worst reduces the financial hit
of fraudulent travel and at best actually reduces the risk, not increases
it. In contrast the ability to deliberately purchase the cheapest possible
paper ticket to enter at a gated station and take ones chances on there not
being any ticket checks on route or at the ungated exit seems to provide
much more scope for fradulent travel.

If both entry and exit are at ungated stations then the risks with paper
tickets and Oyster seem pretty much equal. In theory one could touch in on
exit if ticket checks are seen and take the 'penalty' hit rather than get
caught travelling fraudulently, but in practice RPIs can watch the
validators and see this happening.

Southeastern Railway staving off Oyster PAYG
 

"Graham J" wrote in message
...

If both entry and exit are at ungated stations then the risks with paper
tickets and Oyster seem pretty much equal. In theory one could touch in
on exit if ticket checks are seen and take the 'penalty' hit rather than
get caught travelling fraudulently, but in practice RPIs can watch the
validators and see this happening.

Isn't the amount charged on entry at NR stations such as Marylebone, where
Oyster is in use, already more
than the 'tube' version, and broadly the same as a single NR journey to zone
6?

Paul

Southeastern Railway staving off Oyster PAYG
 

If both entry and exit are at ungated stations then the risks with paper
tickets and Oyster seem pretty much equal. In theory one could touch in
on exit if ticket checks are seen and take the 'penalty' hit rather than
get caught travelling fraudulently, but in practice RPIs can watch the
validators and see this happening.

Isn't the amount charged on entry at NR stations such as Marylebone, where
Oyster is in use, already more
than the 'tube' version, and broadly the same as a single NR journey to
zone 6?

I seem to remember it is £5 but what that equates to I don't know. However
it does seem to suggest that the system is flexible enough to charge
different amounts on entry at different stations and this amount might need
increasing a bit to allow for travel to ungated stations way outside the
zonal area.

Southeastern Railway staving off Oyster PAYG
 

"Graham J" wrote in message
...

I seem to remember it is £5 but what that equates to I don't know.
However it does seem to suggest that the system is flexible enough to
charge different amounts on entry at different stations and this amount
might need increasing a bit to allow for travel to ungated stations way
outside the zonal area.

Don't forget, stations within the zonal area don't need to be gated, just
provided with an Oyster validator - agree however the major problem will be
people travelling 'long' to beyond the Oyster zone - and risking a normal
revenue check by an inspector or a manned barrier somewhere, but this is
also the case at the moment with people taking a punt on the likelihood of a
ticket check at the further outposts, having entered through a gated station
with a normal magnetic ticket to the first stop...

Paul