Fare evasion
 

I was caught using someone elses freedom pass instead of my own oyster on London Underground. My details were taken but I wasn't given an on the spot fine. I was told that I could be cautioned or prosecuted. How long does it take before I hear from them? In what cases are people more likely to be prosecuted as opposed to being cautioned? Do they look for CCTV evidence and use the history of travel on the freedom pass as evidence against you? I've also read that you could go to prison and have a criminal record, how likely is this? What happens if you're taken to court? I don't know what to do, I'm absolutely terrfied of what could happen to me. Any answers or advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

Fare evasion
 

On Feb 19, 3:39 pm, Michelle
wrote:
I was caught using someone elses freedom pass instead of my own oyster
on London Underground. My details were taken but I wasn't given an on
the spot fine. I was told that I could be cautioned or prosecuted.
How long does it take before I hear from them? In what cases are
people more likely to be prosecuted as opposed to being cautioned? Do
they look for CCTV evidence and use the history of travel on the
freedom pass as evidence against you? I've also read that you could go
to prison and have a criminal record, how likely is this? What happens
if you're taken to court? I don't know what to do, I'm absolutely
terrfied of what could happen to me. Any answers or advice would be
appreciated. Thanks.



I can't answer all the questions about prosecution, although I would
guess that a caution was likely if you admit to everything and it's a
first offence, but to clarify one point, by "on the spot fine" I take
it that you mean a penalty fare.

A penalty fare is not a fine, and it should not be issued in a case
where fare evasion is suspected. It seems that the staff concerned
acted correctly and did not issue one in this case, because there was
suspicion of fare evasion.

It would have been wrong to issue penalty fare if fare evasion was
suspected, because it would make systematic evasion worthwhile (free
travel and the occasional £20 when caught).

Fare evasion
 

MIG wrote:

A penalty fare is not a fine, and it should not be issued in a case
where fare evasion is suspected. It seems that the staff concerned
acted correctly and did not issue one in this case, because there was
suspicion of fare evasion.

It would have been wrong to issue penalty fare if fare evasion was
suspected, because it would make systematic evasion worthwhile (free
travel and the occasional £20 when caught).

Pardon my ignorance, but when is a penalty fare appropriate if not for
suspected fare evasion?
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Fare evasion
 

"David of Broadway" wrote in message
...
MIG wrote:

A penalty fare is not a fine, and it should not be issued in a case
where fare evasion is suspected. It seems that the staff concerned
acted correctly and did not issue one in this case, because there was
suspicion of fare evasion.

It would have been wrong to issue penalty fare if fare evasion was
suspected, because it would make systematic evasion worthwhile (free
travel and the occasional £20 when caught).

Pardon my ignorance, but when is a penalty fare appropriate if not for
suspected fare evasion?

IANAL but... The penalty fare scheme was brought in because in UK, fare
evasion is prosecuted under the theft act, which requires a certain level of
proof of intent, therefore anyone offering to pay when challenged could not
realistically be taken to court for theft. A penalty fare is offered to
someone travelling without an appropriate ticket only in a defined penalty
fare area.

Someone who attempts to defraud the railway by presenting someone elses
pass, or a fake ticket, or by doing a runner - is clearly intending not to
pay, therefore would be likely to face a prosecution.

Paul

Fare evasion
 

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:39:02 +0000, Michelle
wrote:


I was caught using someone elses freedom pass instead of my own oyster
on London Underground.

Which was a rather stupid thing to do if you don't mind me saying.

My details were taken but I wasn't given an on
the spot fine. I was told that I could be cautioned or prosecuted.

Yes - because the use of someone's freedom pass is not something that is
accidental or unintentioned. Penalty fares do not apply in these cases.
Misuse of a freedom pass is a serious issue in terms of fare evasion.

How long does it take before I hear from them? In what cases are
people more likely to be prosecuted as opposed to being cautioned? Do
they look for CCTV evidence and use the history of travel on the
freedom pass as evidence against you? I've also read that you could go
to prison and have a criminal record, how likely is this? What happens
if you're taken to court? I don't know what to do, I'm absolutely
terrfied of what could happen to me. Any answers or advice would be
appreciated. Thanks.

If you were given details as to the procedure or who is handling the
case then I would call them. Failing that contact the customer services
centre - details on the LU bit of the TfL website. I don't know how
prosecutions use the Oyster card journey data in support of a case but
needless to say the information will be available in the system.

No one here can give you a detailed explanation about your particular
case as we not party to the details. Ring customer services to get an
update - this may not be immediate as they will need to track down the
particular case but this is your best way of obtaining more info.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/contacts/
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Fare evasion
 

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...

"David of Broadway" wrote in message
...
MIG wrote:

A penalty fare is not a fine, and it should not be issued in a case
where fare evasion is suspected. It seems that the staff concerned
acted correctly and did not issue one in this case, because there was
suspicion of fare evasion.

It would have been wrong to issue penalty fare if fare evasion was
suspected, because it would make systematic evasion worthwhile (free
travel and the occasional £20 when caught).

Pardon my ignorance, but when is a penalty fare appropriate if not for
suspected fare evasion?

IANAL but... The penalty fare scheme was brought in because in UK, fare
evasion is prosecuted under the theft act, which requires a certain level
of
proof of intent, therefore anyone offering to pay when challenged could
not
realistically be taken to court for theft.

That is incorrect analysis.

Offering to pay when challenged can easily be proof of guilt.
A genuine reason for not having a ticket is required for there
to be no chance of a prosecution and offering to pay when
challenged suggest that the passenger knows that they
didn't have an appropriate excuse.

tim

Fare evasion
 

On Feb 19, 5:14 pm, David of Broadway
wrote:
MIG wrote:
A penalty fare is not a fine, and it should not be issued in a case
where fare evasion is suspected. It seems that the staff concerned
acted correctly and did not issue one in this case, because there was
suspicion of fare evasion.

It would have been wrong to issue penalty fare if fare evasion was
suspected, because it would make systematic evasion worthwhile (free
travel and the occasional £20 when caught).

Pardon my ignorance, but when is a penalty fare appropriate if not for
suspected fare evasion?


Absolutely nothing.

I utterly deny the appropriateness of penalty fares in any
circumstances, but that's another thread ...

Fare evasion
 

On Feb 19, 7:00 pm, "tim....." wrote:
"Paul Scott" wrote in message

...







"David of Broadway" wrote in message
...
MIG wrote:

A penalty fare is not a fine, and it should not be issued in a case
where fare evasion is suspected. It seems that the staff concerned
acted correctly and did not issue one in this case, because there was
suspicion of fare evasion.

It would have been wrong to issue penalty fare if fare evasion was
suspected, because it would make systematic evasion worthwhile (free
travel and the occasional £20 when caught).

Pardon my ignorance, but when is a penalty fare appropriate if not for
suspected fare evasion?

IANAL but... The penalty fare scheme was brought in because in UK, fare
evasion is prosecuted under the theft act, which requires a certain level
of
proof of intent, therefore anyone offering to pay when challenged could
not
realistically be taken to court for theft.

That is incorrect analysis.

Offering to pay when challenged can easily be proof of guilt.
A genuine reason for not having a ticket is required for there
to be no chance of a prosecution and offering to pay when
challenged suggest that the passenger knows that they
didn't have an appropriate excuse.

tim


I don't know; given that the only way that they are legal is because
they are claimed to be a standard fare that you pay if you don't get a
ticket before getting on the train, it's conceivable that someone in a
hurry could fully intend to pay the higher penalty fare on the train
rather than queue at the ticket office.

Fare evasion
 

On 19 Feb, 18:35, Paul Corfield wrote:
I was caught using someone elses freedom pass instead of my own oyster
on London Underground.

Which was a rather stupid thing to do if you don't mind me saying.

I can see it could possibly be an accident (your s.o. has freedom
pass, and you picked up the wrong wallet by mistake, and you didn't
look at the card (I assume it has a photo on)) -- this is especially
reasonable if you otherwise have a travelcard anyway! You should
hopefully get off with an informal warning if this was the case.

Certainly my fiancee and myself have unintentionally swapped oysters a
couple of times, and while they are unregistered, they could easilly
be registered and one have a travelcard while the other doesnt.

Yes - because the use of someone's freedom pass is not something that is
accidental or unintentioned. Penalty fares do not apply in these cases.
Misuse of a freedom pass is a serious issue in terms of fare evasion.

And its great news that TFL crack down on this kind of thing. It's
like the blue-badge abuse, it's a system designed to help the less
fortunate -- abusing it is worse than normal fare evasion in my book.
Aside from the fine/prison, I think offenders should be banned from
public transport for a few years.

One also wonders about the source of the freedom pass. Was it stolen
and the old dear just hadn't realised, or are they willing
collaberators in a crime? Would this person be investigated?

Fare evasion
 

"tim....." wrote in message
...

IANAL but... The penalty fare scheme was brought in because in UK, fare
evasion is prosecuted under the theft act, which requires a certain level
of
proof of intent, therefore anyone offering to pay when challenged could
not
realistically be taken to court for theft.

That is incorrect analysis.

Offering to pay when challenged can easily be proof of guilt.
A genuine reason for not having a ticket is required for there
to be no chance of a prosecution and offering to pay when
challenged suggest that the passenger knows that they
didn't have an appropriate excuse.


It may have been mistaken re the Theft Act, but here is a section of the
DfT's background reasoning:

A penalty fares system was first developed in the late 1980s by the Network
SouthEast sector of British Rail (BR), as a way to protect revenue in its
particular circumstances. As well as reducing the expense of inspecting
tickets at ticket barriers, BR also wanted to reduce the number of cases
that were referred to the courts. Before penalty fares were introduced, the
only way to deter people from travelling without a ticket was to prosecute
them under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. This was time-consuming,
costly and often ineffective. For a prosecution to be successful, it had to
be proved that the passenger intended to avoid paying. This was often
difficult as most passengers without tickets were willing to pay if they
were challenged, but did not pay if they were not challenged.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legis...policya?page=2

Paul

Fare evasion
 

On 19 Feb, 19:00, "tim....." wrote:
Offering to pay when challenged can easily be proof of guilt.
A genuine reason for not having a ticket is required for there
to be no chance of a prosecution and offering to pay when
challenged suggest that the passenger knows that they
didn't have an appropriate excuse.

When I lived in Tunbridge Wells I normally bought a day return (£16
with YP) to London. One day I only bought a single as I planned to be
working past 11PM and get a taxi home. As it turns out I didn't work
that late, so when I arrived after a 12 hour shift at unbarriered
Waterloo East from Southwark station, I completely forgot to buy a
ticket (~£7.50).

When the guard came into the carrage after London Bridge I looked in
my wallet and realised I didn't have one! I explained and apologised,
and with the fact I still had a lot of old tickets so he could see it
was a one-off meant I even got my YP discount (and a warning)!

So I offered to pay, but wasn't guilty of deliberate fare evasion (IME
that line is well-staffed anyway, it was rare for my ticket not to be
checekd, even on the non-stop fast trains in the morning from High
Brooms to Cannon Street (completely barriered)

It's annoying as two singles is actually cheaper than a return, but
the risk of forgetting (and the hastle of buying when you do remember)
doesn't make it worthwhile.

Fare evasion
 

On 19 Feb, 19:15, "MIG" wrote:
I don't know; given that the only way that they are legal is because
they are claimed to be a standard fare that you pay if you don't get a
ticket before getting on the train, it's conceivable that someone in a
hurry could fully intend to pay the higher penalty fare on the train
rather than queue at the ticket office.

Indeed, and it's often advertised at that. When I lived in Twyford and
was in a rush to get in, missing the train mean't losing out on more
than tha £12 extra the ticket cost. Advetrs clearly state that if you
don't have a ticket, you will be charged a £20 fare. That implies a
choice, like the "only SOS and SOR on long distance trains when
there's ticket purchasing facilities available"

Either the adverts are misleading, or a penalty fare must always be
accepted, if anything proving fare evasion is harder -- travelling to
an unmanned station from a manned station, you may decide to follow
the advert's offer, and buy (for £20) on the train. If there's noone
to buy from on the train, and no ticket facilities at the other end,
what can you do?

Fare evasion
 

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:39:02 +0000, Michelle
wrote:


I was caught using someone elses freedom pass instead of my own oyster
on London Underground.

Which was a rather stupid thing to do if you don't mind me saying.

My details were taken but I wasn't given an on
the spot fine. I was told that I could be cautioned or prosecuted.

Yes - because the use of someone's freedom pass is not something that is
accidental or unintentioned. Penalty fares do not apply in these cases.
Misuse of a freedom pass is a serious issue in terms of fare evasion.

How long does it take before I hear from them? In what cases are
people more likely to be prosecuted as opposed to being cautioned? Do
they look for CCTV evidence and use the history of travel on the
freedom pass as evidence against you? I've also read that you could go
to prison and have a criminal record, how likely is this? What happens
if you're taken to court? I don't know what to do, I'm absolutely
terrfied of what could happen to me. Any answers or advice would be
appreciated. Thanks.

If you were given details as to the procedure or who is handling the
case then I would call them. Failing that contact the customer services
centre - details on the LU bit of the TfL website. I don't know how
prosecutions use the Oyster card journey data in support of a case but
needless to say the information will be available in the system.

No one here can give you a detailed explanation about your particular
case as we not party to the details. Ring customer services to get an
update - this may not be immediate as they will need to track down the
particular case but this is your best way of obtaining more info.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/contacts/


Perhaps someone who's familiar with the law can clarify what the
penalties are - if found guilty by a court then a person would
obviously end up with a criminal record and most likely a fine in
addition to paying some courts costs, but I'd have thought it would
take a pretty serious offence to end up with a custodial sentence for
fare evasion (for example ticket forgery).

Fare evasion
 

On 19 Feb 2007 11:58:47 -0800, "Mizter T" wrote:

Perhaps someone who's familiar with the law can clarify what the
penalties are - if found guilty by a court then a person would
obviously end up with a criminal record and most likely a fine in
addition to paying some courts costs, but I'd have thought it would
take a pretty serious offence to end up with a custodial sentence for
fare evasion (for example ticket forgery).

It is entirely dependent upon the legislation that forms the basis of
prosecution. There are various choices from what I can recall but I do
know that the approach to prosecution changed a few years ago. As said
in another post there is also the possibility (and again we don't know
the facts) that other offences *may* have been committed.

As a LU employee I think I need to shut up now as it really is not
appropriate for me to comment further on what may become a prosecution.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Fare evasion
 

David of Broadway wrote:
MIG wrote:

A penalty fare is not a fine, and it should not be issued in a case
where fare evasion is suspected. It seems that the staff concerned
acted correctly and did not issue one in this case, because there was
suspicion of fare evasion.

It would have been wrong to issue penalty fare if fare evasion was
suspected, because it would make systematic evasion worthwhile (free
travel and the occasional £20 when caught).

Pardon my ignorance, but when is a penalty fare appropriate if not for
suspected fare evasion?

Only time I ever paid one was when I forgot my pass had expired - I
started from the DLR so no gate - of course I could not get out. I went
to the desk as soon as I realised my card was out-of-date. Given I tried
the card and only then did I know it had expired then it was hardly
evasion. I even forgot to argue that as I had only travelled on the DLR
I should have had a £5 penalty not a £10 one (it was some time ago).

Fare evasion
 

"Paul Weaver" wrote in message
oups.com...
On 19 Feb, 19:00, "tim....." wrote:
Offering to pay when challenged can easily be proof of guilt.
A genuine reason for not having a ticket is required for there
to be no chance of a prosecution and offering to pay when
challenged suggest that the passenger knows that they
didn't have an appropriate excuse.

When I lived in Tunbridge Wells I normally bought a day return (£16
with YP) to London. One day I only bought a single as I planned to be.
working past 11PM and get a taxi home. As it turns out I didn't work
that late, so when I arrived after a 12 hour shift at unbarriered
Waterloo East from Southwark station, I completely forgot to buy a
ticket (~£7.50).

When the guard came into the carrage after London Bridge I looked in
my wallet and realised I didn't have one! I explained and apologised,
and with the fact I still had a lot of old tickets so he could see it
was a one-off meant I even got my YP discount (and a warning)!

So I offered to pay, but wasn't guilty of deliberate fare evasion (IME
that line is well-staffed anyway, it was rare for my ticket not to be
checekd, even on the non-stop fast trains in the morning from High
Brooms to Cannon Street (completely barriered)

You offered to pay after you had claimed your excuse.

This is not the same as offering to pay as soon as the guard
challenges you.

tim

Fare evasion
 

Michelle wrote in
:


I was caught using someone elses freedom pass instead of my own oyster
on London Underground. My details were taken but I wasn't given an on
the spot fine. I was told that I could be cautioned or prosecuted.
How long does it take before I hear from them? In what cases are
people more likely to be prosecuted as opposed to being cautioned? Do
they look for CCTV evidence and use the history of travel on the
freedom pass as evidence against you? I've also read that you could go
to prison and have a criminal record, how likely is this? What happens
if you're taken to court? I don't know what to do, I'm absolutely
terrfied of what could happen to me. Any answers or advice would be
appreciated. Thanks.


With all due respect, Michelle, this is the wrong place to ask. A lot of
people work for TFL and will have absolutely no interest in helping you at
all.

To be honest, I'm not brimming over with sympathy either, so all I am going
to say is that you are going to find a better reaction on somewhere like
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/

Although be warned, Deputy Assistant Commissioner of the Met, Brian
Paddick, is a regular :-))

Fare evasion
 

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:36:37 -0600, "Tristán White"
wrote:

Michelle wrote in
:


I was caught using someone elses freedom pass instead of my own oyster
on London Underground. My details were taken but I wasn't given an on
the spot fine. I was told that I could be cautioned or prosecuted.
How long does it take before I hear from them? In what cases are
people more likely to be prosecuted as opposed to being cautioned? Do
they look for CCTV evidence and use the history of travel on the
freedom pass as evidence against you? I've also read that you could go
to prison and have a criminal record, how likely is this? What happens
if you're taken to court? I don't know what to do, I'm absolutely
terrfied of what could happen to me. Any answers or advice would be
appreciated. Thanks.


With all due respect, Michelle, this is the wrong place to ask. A lot of
people work for TFL and will have absolutely no interest in helping you at
all.

And what sort of answer is that? Only people who are familiar with the
detail of the case can actually provide useful help. I have pointed the
poster towards getting that help.

For people to wildly speculate about all sorts of outcomes will do the
poster no good whatsoever.

To be honest, I'm not brimming over with sympathy either, so all I am going
to say is that you are going to find a better reaction on somewhere like
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/

Really? that's full of revenue control officials and prosecution
department members is it?

Although be warned, Deputy Assistant Commissioner of the Met, Brian
Paddick, is a regular :-))

I can't imagine he'd care one way or the other. Transport revenue
prosecutions are not the concern of the Met Police.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Fare evasion
 

Paul Scott wrote:
"David of Broadway" wrote in message
...
MIG wrote:

A penalty fare is not a fine, and it should not be issued in a case
where fare evasion is suspected. It seems that the staff concerned
acted correctly and did not issue one in this case, because there was
suspicion of fare evasion.

It would have been wrong to issue penalty fare if fare evasion was
suspected, because it would make systematic evasion worthwhile (free
travel and the occasional £20 when caught).
Pardon my ignorance, but when is a penalty fare appropriate if not for
suspected fare evasion?

IANAL but... The penalty fare scheme was brought in because in UK, fare
evasion is prosecuted under the theft act, which requires a certain level of
proof of intent, therefore anyone offering to pay when challenged could not
realistically be taken to court for theft. A penalty fare is offered to
someone travelling without an appropriate ticket only in a defined penalty
fare area.

Ah. So if I'm understanding correctly, fare evasion is a technical
term; without the proper intent, it isn't fare evasion.

The penalty fare, being merely a type of fare, is paid by people who
might have evaded the fare in the nontechnical sense but can't be
legally charged with fare evasion.

Am I close?
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Fare evasion
 

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 23:26:00 -0500, David of Broadway
wrote:

Ah. So if I'm understanding correctly, fare evasion is a technical
term; without the proper intent, it isn't fare evasion.

The penalty fare, being merely a type of fare, is paid by people who
might have evaded the fare in the nontechnical sense but can't be
legally charged with fare evasion.

Am I close?

That's how I understand it.

The penalty fare is known in some places[1] as the "standard fare",
perhaps to stress the "fare" nature, rather than the implications of a
fine.

[1] e.g. (from personal experience - of travelling, not of paying it!)
Manchester Metrolink and (certainly previously, not sure if it still
exists as such) buses in the Manchester area.

Fare evasion
 

On Feb 20, 7:56 am, James Farrar wrote:
On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 23:26:00 -0500, David of Broadway

wrote:
Ah. So if I'm understanding correctly, fare evasion is a technical
term; without the proper intent, it isn't fare evasion.

The penalty fare, being merely a type of fare, is paid by people who
might have evaded the fare in the nontechnical sense but can't be
legally charged with fare evasion.

Am I close?

That's how I understand it.

The penalty fare is known in some places[1] as the "standard fare",
perhaps to stress the "fare" nature, rather than the implications of a
fine.

[1] e.g. (from personal experience - of travelling, not of paying it!)
Manchester Metrolink and (certainly previously, not sure if it still
exists as such) buses in the Manchester area.



It's a bit more cunning than that I think. A penalty fare can be
issued to someone who can't be charged with fare evasion (and unlike
the implications above, I think that there could be a good reason why
they can't be charged, not just a technical loophole), but if they
dispute the issue of the penalty fare and don't pay it, they can then
be charged for evasion of the penalty fare, for which there obviously
is evidence.

Thank you for all your replies advice and otherwise. The freedom pass belongs to a relative who knew I had it, but didn't know I used it that day until now. I didn't give a full explanation of what happened because I didn't want people to think it was a sob story, but this is roughly what happened on my part. I had both my oyster and freedom pass which is normal for me, and yes I used the freedom pass to get through the first set of barriers. I did this because I was sure I didn't have enough money on my oyster card for the entire journey. I was in a rush and I didn't have a means to pay either. I stupidly thought just to use the freedom pass for part of the journey and the oyster for the other part. I'm fully aware that this is a poor excuse, seeing as there isn't any real good excuse, but it wasn't like I woke up that day and planned break the law, it was a split second decision, a very stupid one I now regret. Does this make any difference to the outcome? I'm so scared of whats going to happen especially the idea of prison. Any further advice or comments will be appreicated. Thank you again.

Fare evasion
 

James Farrar wrote:

The penalty fare is known in some places[1] as the "standard fare",
perhaps to stress the "fare" nature, rather than the implications of a
fine.

Interesting.

In a sense, we have something similar here on our commuter rail systems.

Except at the new Secaucus Junction station, mainly used for transfers,
our commuter rail stations are ungated. Tickets can be purchased in
advance (from a ticket machine, a ticket window, or the web) or on the
train, but there is a surcharge (typically in the area of $5 these days)
if a ticket /could/ have been purchased at the station (from a machine
or window) but wasn't. However, buying the ticket on-board isn't in any
way akin to fare evasion or theft -- if you're running late and you
don't have time to buy the ticket in the station, there's nothing wrong
with boarding without a ticket and paying a few bucks extra when the
conductor comes around.

By now, most systems (around here, at least) have installed ticket
machines at each station, so the on-board surcharge is generally
collected everywhere. (Previously, many outlying stations didn't have
machines, and their ticket windows were only open in the morning rush
hour.) The one major exception is SEPTA, Philadelphia's transit agency,
which very recently (within the past month) /removed/ all of its ticket
machines (which were problematic -- they didn't accept the latest forms
of currency let alone credit and debit cards) and officially stopped
charging the on-board surcharge for anybody boarding outside Center City
(from what I hear, the practice had been unofficially stopped a long
time ago).

I'm afraid this is how these policies sometimes work out:
http://www.badtransit.com/index.php?...s_we_go_along/
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Fare evasion
 

Michelle wrote:
I stupidly
thought just to use the freedom pass for part of the journey and the
oyster for the other part.

I don't understand how that would work. But it's not really important.

I'm fully aware that this is a poor excuse,
seeing as there isn't any real good excuse, but it wasn't like I woke up
that day and planned break the law, it was a split second decision, a
very stupid one I now regret. Does this make any difference to the
outcome?

Well, if you are prosecuted, you could always tell this to the
magistrates who should consider it as a mitigating factor in passing
sentence.

I'm so scared of whats going to happen especially the idea of
prison.

It seems pretty unlikely you would be thrown in prison for such a minor
offence on the first conviction. I don't think that would fit with the
sentencing guidelines unless you had some aggravating factors you
haven't told us about. Don't worry about it.
--
Michael Hoffman

Fare evasion
 

On 20-Feb-2007, Michelle wrote:

I'm so scared of whats going to happen especially the idea of
prison. Any further advice or comments will be appreicated.

It's extremely unlikely you'd be sent to jail. You'll get a summons
that will tell you when and where you are to appear, and what
law you have broken. You'll stand in front of a magistrate where
you will feel really stoopid, and get a fine, and if prosecuted for
theft, you'll have a record too. If so, the offence will stay on record
for five years. I'm not condoning it, but on the scale of things,
your offence is very minor, so keep things in perspective.

When the summons arrives, take advice from a solicitor.

Fare evasion
 

In message , David of Broadway
writes
By now, most systems (around here, at least) have installed ticket
machines at each station,
About two years ago, both myself and wife were on holiday in NY and
decided to get the Subway from Times Sq. We walked down this little
stairway and was confronted with two full height turnstiles one in, one
out and a wall mounted machine to buy tickets from. We got two tickets
from the machine, my wife went through the turnstile but when I went to
go through the gate just said ticket invalid. So my wife came out.
At the next Subway ticket office we came to I presented both tickets and
an explanation of what had happened, the man on the other side ran the
through a machine and said "They've both been used" and refused a
refund. All he would say was you now got souvenirs to take back with
you. I was not impressed.
--
Clive.

Fare evasion
 

Paul Corfield wrote in
:

And what sort of answer is that? Only people who are familiar with
the detail of the case can actually provide useful help. I have
pointed the poster towards getting that help.


Sorry - that's what I meant. I was kind of paraphrasing what you wrote.
She's asking for advice in the wrong place, as either people here work for
TfL so it would be inappropriate for them to comment on a case that may go
to prosecution; OR they are going to be more concerned about her semantics
and her use of the word "fine" instead of "penalty fare" - you know who you
are ;-)

All she needs to know, whether you agree or not - and I'm not saying that I
do - is:

Assuming she's done this before (and I'm guessing she has)...
(a) should she come clean about it, beg forgiveness etc and if so would she
just be given a caution for her honesty; or
(b) should be say it was a one-off, and hope that they won't check CCTV
cameras against freedom card usage and end up prosecuting her for sure.

IE what's the likelihood that they do (b) and is it a risk worth taking.

I'm sure you'll agree that the chances of there being ANYONE here who is
likely to answer that question with any degree of impartiality is zilch.

And even those here who feel sympathy for her are not going to want to
contribute on UTL for fear of being flamed to **** by some of the more
aggressive types here (again, you know who you are!)

So I just politely hinted that she'd be better off getting a response from
a group that is less connected with either transport staff or transport
enthusiasts.

Whichever option she chooses, I think she learnt her lesson and by her own
admission is scared ****less.

Fare evasion
 

Michelle wrote in
:

SNIP
seeing as there isn't any real good excuse, but it wasn't like I woke up
that day and planned break the law, it was a split second decision, a
SNIP


Ahh - ignore my other post then - I sent that before I read your story.

Fare evasion
 

Paul Weaver wrote

It's annoying as two singles is actually cheaper than a return, but
the risk of forgetting (and the hastle of buying when you do remember)
doesn't make it worthwhile.

Why not buy the two singles at the same time ?

In the old days there were cases when a return was cheaper than a
single (evening Nightrider from Bletchley to London).

--
Mike D

Fare evasion
 

On Feb 21, 4:21 am, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:

In the old days there were cases when a return was cheaper than a
single (evening Nightrider from Bletchley to London).

There still are, on a very similar route. CDR Milton Keynes to London
or vice-versa, Silverlink only is gbp12.90. There is no routed cheap
day single.

The GMPTE Cheap Evening Returns spring to mind as another example.

Neil

Fare evasion
 

(Responding to an old post...)

Clive Coleman. wrote:
In message , David of Broadway
writes
By now, most systems (around here, at least) have installed ticket
machines at each station,
About two years ago, both myself and wife were on holiday in NY and
decided to get the Subway from Times Sq. We walked down this little
stairway and was confronted with two full height turnstiles one in, one
out and a wall mounted machine to buy tickets from. We got two tickets
from the machine, my wife went through the turnstile but when I went to
go through the gate just said ticket invalid. So my wife came out. At
the next Subway ticket office we came to I presented both tickets and an
explanation of what had happened, the man on the other side ran the
through a machine and said "They've both been used" and refused a
refund. All he would say was you now got souvenirs to take back with
you. I was not impressed.

I don't blame you.

Since the only fare checks are at entry (passengers aren't required to
keep their MetroCards once they enter), the only opportunity to verify
that the fare has been paid is at entry. Since you had no way of
backing up your claim, the station agent wasn't willing to believe you
-- for all he knew, you had picked up two used cards off the floor.

Your wife should have stayed inside fare control and walked to another
booth there -- that might have made your story more believable,
especially if you had produced a card whose serial number differed from
hers by 1.

For future reference, a single pay-per-ride MetroCard can be shared by
up to four people. If you'll be taking more than a few trips, a card
purchased with a balance of $10 or more gets an automatic 20% bonus.
And pay-per-ride MetroCards are valid on PATH and AirTrain as well as
the subways and buses. (They're NOT valid on commuter rail, however.)
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

I don't know if anyone can help, but any further advice will be much appreciated. I recieved the letter from london underground saying legal proceedings may be initiated against me. I'm supposed to send the letter back within 10 days with my full details and if I want to write any comments I can, but it will be used as evidence. I don't know what to do or what to say. I'm still scared as to what is going to happen. I keep thinking I'm going to prison because I was using a freedom pass as opposed to not having a ticket. Is this likely? If I'm fined, how much is likely in a case like mine? Would it make a difference if I write how sorry I am and how frightened I've been? Or should I write nothing? What happens if I don't send the letter back? Also someone here said if I get a criminal record for this it'll last for 5 years, is this true I thought it was for life? I honestly don't know what to do anymore. I feel so stupid for being in a rush that day and not thinking things through. I think someone suggested I seek help from a solicitor, how do I go about this? Sorry I have no idea how this works.

Fare evasion
 

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 20:40:20 +0000, Michelle
wrote:


I don't know if anyone can help, but any further advice will be much
appreciated. I recieved the letter from london underground saying
legal proceedings may be initiated against me. I'm supposed to send
the letter back within 10 days with my full details and if I want to
write any comments I can, but it will be used as evidence. I don't
know what to do or what to say. I'm still scared as to what is going
to happen. I keep thinking I'm going to prison because I was using a
freedom pass as opposed to not having a ticket. Is this likely? If
I'm fined, how much is likely in a case like mine? Would it make a
difference if I write how sorry I am and how frightened I've been? Or
should I write nothing? What happens if I don't send the letter back?
Also someone here said if I get a criminal record for this it'll last
for 5 years, is this true I thought it was for life? I honestly don't
know what to do anymore. I feel so stupid for being in a rush that day
and not thinking things through. I think someone suggested I seek help
from a solicitor, how do I go about this? Sorry I have no idea how
this works.

Personally I would tell the truth by way of response. The very important
word in your second sentence is "may" - it is possible this will not
lead to a prosecution. However given you are clearly very upset /
concerned then I think you must seek some independent professional
advice to help you get a clear position.

First port of call should be your local Citizens Advice Bureau - their
location and number will be in the phone book. Judging from what I see
of my local office it will be busy and you may need to queue or try to
get an appointment. The advice will be free and they may well be able to
point you towards an appropriate solicitor if you decide that is
something you want to do.

If you would prefer to contact a solicitor directly then again your
local phone book / Yellow Pages will have a listing. The alternative is
simply to pop into a number of local offices - they tend to congregate
not far away from banks and estate agencies - and ask if they offer a
service to advise you on your case or represent you and don't forget to
ask for indicative costs. An initial consultation may be free but again
ask.

This link may also help as a starting point.

http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/choosingandusing.law

As I am a LU employee it would not be appropriate for me to offer any
further technical advice about the offence or the process.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Fare evasion
 

In message , Michelle
writes
I don't know if anyone can help, but any further advice will be much

appreciated. I recieved the letter from london underground saying

legal proceedings may be initiated against me. I'm supposed to send

the letter back within 10 days with my full details and if I want to

write any comments I can, but it will be used as evidence. I don't

know what to do or what to say. I'm still scared as to what is going

to happen. I keep thinking I'm going to prison because I was using a

freedom pass as opposed to not having a ticket. Is this likely? If

I'm fined, how much is likely in a case like mine? Would it make a

difference if I write how sorry I am and how frightened I've been? Or

should I write nothing? What happens if I don't send the letter back?

Also someone here said if I get a criminal record for this it'll last

for 5 years, is this true I thought it was for life? I honestly don't

know what to do anymore. I feel so stupid for being in a rush that day

and not thinking things through. I think someone suggested I seek help

from a solicitor, how do I go about this? Sorry I have no idea how

this works.

Didn't you post this about three weeks ago? Try uk.legal you're more
likely to find someone in the "know" there.
--
Clive.

Fare evasion
 

In message , Michelle
writes

I keep thinking I'm going to prison because I was using a

freedom pass as opposed to not having a ticket. Is this likely?

First of all, you shouldn't necessarily assume that there will be a
prosecution. It depends on how you respond to the letter (see below) -
but if you ignore it, then a prosecution will be much more likely. If
the charge is fare evasion and it's a first offence, you will NOT go to
prison unless you subsequently fail to pay the court's fine.

If I'm fined, how much is likely in a case like mine?

The limit is £1000 but for a first offence it is likely to be around
£100 (depending on circumstances) plus costs. If you decide to plead
guilty, you will probably be able to do so by post and will not have to
appear in court, and costs are likely to be around £25.

should I write nothing? What happens if I don't send the letter back?

As Paul C has suggested, it would be best if you sought advice on what
to write. The Citizen's Advice Bureau is an excellent suggestion and
they will help you collect your thoughts and present your reply in the
best way. If you are advised to use a solicitor to draft your response,
the cost will be quite modest since no court appearance is likely. And,
as Clive has suggested, you may get better expert advice from the
uk.legal newsgroup.

Also someone here said if I get a criminal record for this it'll
last
for 5 years, is this true I thought it was for life?

A conviction that results in a fine is considered "spent" after five
years. This means that after five years, it doesn't normally need to be
mentioned if you are applying for a job, for insurance, for credit or
similar, unless you are specifically requested to reveal ALL past
convictions (which may be required if you apply to join certain
professions, such as teaching, the police and prison services, etc).
Although a conviction should never be taken lightly, a small fine for a
single silly mistake is not really going to be a significant barrier
unless it becomes part of a chain of offending.

But DO seek one-to-one advice - you may hopefully avoid prosecution, and
if you don't, the C.A.B. and/or a solicitor, will help you collect your
thoughts and show you how best to proceed.

--
Paul Terry

Fare evasion
 

On 24-Mar-2007, Michelle wrote:

I'm fined, how much is likely in a case like mine? Would it make a
difference if I write how sorry I am and how frightened I've been? Or
should I write nothing?

You should tell them you were in a hurry, you made a really stupid
mistake, and you're very, very, very sorry. Personally I think not
replying is a bad option. Keep it simple, and and don't say too much.

What happens if I don't send the letter back?
Also someone here...

....that would be me.

said if I get a criminal record for this it'll last
for 5 years, is this true I thought it was for life?

It's a thing called the "Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974"

Read about it he http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/rehabact.htm

I honestly don't
know what to do anymore. I feel so stupid for being in a rush that day
and not thinking things through. I think someone suggested I seek help
from a solicitor, how do I go about this? Sorry I have no idea how
this works.

As the others have said, CAB, Yellow Pages.

You're not going to prison, take it easy.

Fare evasion
 

On 27 Mar, 02:07, wrote:
You do keep the record for life and
the police can mention it is court if you commit another offence

ITYM "are tried for another offence"?

In any case, it is only permissible to mention prior convictions if
the defendant raises a defence of previous good character, or if the
new offence is sufficiently similar in nature to a previous one for it
to be directly relevant - the judge has to decide in advance whether
the latter is the case.

Otherwise, the policeman who mentioned it would be in contempt of
court (and the case would be dismissed, either for retrial or not).

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Fare evasion
 

John B wrote:
On 27 Mar, 02:07, wrote:
You do keep the record for life and
the police can mention it is court if you commit another offence

ITYM "are tried for another offence"?

In any case, it is only permissible to mention prior convictions if
the defendant raises a defence of previous good character, or if the
new offence is sufficiently similar in nature to a previous one for it
to be directly relevant - the judge has to decide in advance whether
the latter is the case.

Can't it be mentioned in sentencing though if you are convicted?
--
Michael Hoffman

Fare evasion
 

On 27 Mar, 11:32, Michael Hoffman wrote:
You do keep the record for life and
the police can mention it is court if you commit another offence

ITYM "are tried for another offence"?

In any case, it is only permissible to mention prior convictions if
the defendant raises a defence of previous good character, or if the
new offence is sufficiently similar in nature to a previous one for it
to be directly relevant - the judge has to decide in advance whether
the latter is the case.

Can't it be mentioned in sentencing though if you are convicted?

Yes - after conviction, the judge reviews the defendant's criminal
record and takes that into account as one of the factors determining
sentence. It's not really "mentioning", though...

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Fare evasion
 

"Michelle" wrote in message
...

I don't know if anyone can help, but any further advice will be much
appreciated. I recieved the letter from london underground saying
legal proceedings may be initiated against me. I'm supposed to send
the letter back within 10 days with my full details and if I want to
write any comments I can, but it will be used as evidence. I don't
know what to do or what to say. I'm still scared as to what is going
to happen. I keep thinking I'm going to prison because I was using a
freedom pass as opposed to not having a ticket. Is this likely? If
I'm fined, how much is likely in a case like mine? Would it make a
difference if I write how sorry I am and how frightened I've been? Or
should I write nothing? What happens if I don't send the letter back?
Also someone here said if I get a criminal record for this it'll last
for 5 years, is this true I thought it was for life? I honestly don't
know what to do anymore. I feel so stupid for being in a rush that day
and not thinking things through. I think someone suggested I seek help
from a solicitor, how do I go about this? Sorry I have no idea how
this works.




--
Michelle

How old are you Michelle?

--
Viddlêr Sêllbøê