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In message , John
Hearns writes
Edward Cowling London UK wrote:

Oh, you should get down to the Natural History Museum, then. They've
a very good one there.

I think that's actually made of plaster...

God help us if Boltar ever clocks that - he'll be denying that blue
whales exist.
(They do - don't they? Its not some big joke is it?)

Well I've never actually seen one ;-)

--
Edward Cowling London UK

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On 21 Feb, 17:33, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 20 Feb 2007, Mike Bristow wrote:
In article . com,
Boltar wrote:

I don't use the jubilee much but the times I have been on that section
I've not seen any either. Also I can't see how someone would get on or
off a tube in a wheelchair train in the rush hour without serious
inconvenience to themselves and other people. Its hard enough for
mothers with prams.

Folk in wheelchairs can be more nimble than mothers with prams; some of
them will have been 'wheeling' for years, but mothers stop pushing prams
as soon as they can.

Not sure i'd agree with that - there are plenty of women pushing around
kids who are clearly old enough to walk. A friend of mine has a bee in her
bonnet about it and always points them out, so i know this to be true!

tom


Tom - dare I say that it's sometimes easier to shove them in a buggy
anyway! Little legs get tired quickly.

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On 20 Feb, 15:53, "Boltar" wrote:
On Feb 20, 2:25 pm, John Hearns wrote:

Boltar wrote:

I can't remember when I've ever seen someone in a wheelchair on the
tube. DLR yes , tube no.

Have a ride on the Jubilee Line - the part with the accessible platforms.

I don't use the jubilee much but the times I have been on that section
I've not seen any either. Also I can't see how someone would get on or
off a tube in a wheelchair train in the rush hour without serious
inconvenience to themselves and other people. Its hard enough for
mothers with prams.

B2003


I've seen wheelchair users on the new eastern section of the Jubilee
line several times, though not during rush hour.

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But what about on national rail services, which have manual door operations?
People seem to use them just fine. Same goes for the DLR and Croydon
Tramlink.

Having them is good, particularly in the winter, because it conserves
energy.

I notice that many undergrounds in continental Europe have manual door
opening, and nobody blinks an eye at it.

But newer stock on the Paris Metro has only driver-controlled doors, which
is a departure from the older models, where you had to lift a latch.

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...
I've been trying to find evidence for this unsuccessfully, but I think I
once heard that the passenger door control is not normally used because it
slows the service down, because opening the doors takes longer at
stations. Individuals randomly positioned on the platform aren't lined up
with the doors, and aren't as fast as the driver, who knows exactly 'when'
to operate them...

Paul S

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In message . com,
Boltar writes
On Feb 20, 10:23 pm, Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:
In message .com,
Boltar writes

Perhaps it has something to do with wheelchair users not being
able to reach
them.

I can't remember when I've ever seen someone in a wheelchair on the
tube. DLR yes , tube no.

Sorry to disappoint you but in the past two weeks, I've noticed 3
wheelchair users getting on my train.

Deep level tubes and all (Piccadilly)

I travel on the picc everyday. Never seen a wheelchair user once.
Besides which I can't see how they'd get out at most of the stations
given the drop from the train to the platform and the lack of lifts at
most of them.

You don't always need lifts:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/downloads...uide1-october2
006.pdf

Although I noticed Dagenham Heathway (which I used yesterday) is shown
as being wheelchair accessible and yet there's possibly half a foot
between the train floor height the platform (I'm not sure why some
stations on the same line are better than others, in this respect),
which I would have thought is enough to be challenging. It does have a
disabled toilet and ramp to street level however.

One third of Tube stations to be accessible by 2013:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent...-releases-cont
ent.asp?prID=734

--
Paul G
Typing from Barking

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Paul G wrote:

Although I noticed Dagenham Heathway (which I used yesterday) is shown
as being wheelchair accessible and yet there's possibly half a foot
between the train floor height the platform

George he hump might help the
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/downloads/...gePlatform.pdf

I've never seen one, but the document says there is a prototype at Holborn.

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On Feb 22, 7:24 am, Paul G wrote:
In message . com,
Boltar writes





On Feb 20, 10:23 pm, Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:
In message .com,
Boltar writes

Perhaps it has something to do with wheelchair users not being
able to reach
them.

I can't remember when I've ever seen someone in a wheelchair on the
tube. DLR yes , tube no.

Sorry to disappoint you but in the past two weeks, I've noticed 3
wheelchair users getting on my train.

Deep level tubes and all (Piccadilly)

I travel on the picc everyday. Never seen a wheelchair user once.
Besides which I can't see how they'd get out at most of the stations
given the drop from the train to the platform and the lack of lifts at
most of them.

You don't always need lifts:http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/downloads...ss-guide1-octo...
006.pdf

Although I noticed Dagenham Heathway (which I used yesterday) is shown
as being wheelchair accessible and yet there's possibly half a foot
between the train floor height the platform (I'm not sure why some
stations on the same line are better than others, in this respect),
which I would have thought is enough to be challenging. It does have a
disabled toilet and ramp to street level however.

One third of Tube stations to be accessible by 2013:http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent...ress-releases-...
ent.asp?prID=734

--
Paul G
Typing from Barking-


The platform/train thing is solved by staff with ramps on NR, so I
don't see why not on LU.

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MIG wrote:
On Feb 22, 7:24 am, Paul G wrote:


The platform/train thing is solved by staff with ramps on NR, so I
don't see why not on LU.

That sounds reasonable enough. On NR ramps are located on each platform.
Would definitely have to be padlocked on Tube as some yobbo would throw
them on the tracks. Wouldn't be a good idea on subsurface lines though.
But see above - platform humps are the answer.

Anyway, wheelchairs don't need dead flat access everywhere.
How would people cope with our city streets if they couldn't ?

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On Feb 21, 6:22 pm, John Hearns wrote:
Boltar wrote:

Deep level tubes and all (Piccadilly)

I travel on the picc everyday.

Piccadilly line?
Lifts are Green Park, for interchange with Jubilee.
Hammersmith for interchange with the District.
Earls Court for interchange with the District.
Heathrow terminals.
Caledonian Road.

So thats six stations out of , what , 30 , 40? Are you suggesting
thats actually a useful amount?

B2003

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On Feb 21, 6:27 pm, John Hearns wrote:
Boltar wrote:

I travel on the picc everyday. Never seen a wheelchair user once.
Besides which I can't see how they'd get out at most of the stations
given the drop from the train to the platform and the lack of lifts at
most of them.

Same way your parents with prams do - push them.

How exactly does someone in a wheelchair get out and push? Or are that
always supposed to rely on good samaritans to help or take a friend
along everywhere?

B2003

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John Hearns wrote:


That sounds reasonable enough.

I will make my reply a little clearer, before Boltar starts to moan.
Ramps might be workable on open air stations on the suburban parts, with
trains such as the Met and District Lines. There are large platforms,
and space to store the ramps.

I would say they would be a very bad idea on the deep level Tube
platforms. Hence the idea for platform humps.

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On 22 Feb, 08:40, John Hearns wrote:
Paul G wrote:

Although I noticed Dagenham Heathway (which I used yesterday) is shown
as being wheelchair accessible and yet there's possibly half a foot
between the train floor height the platform

George the hump might help the
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/downloads/...gePlatform.pdf

I've never seen one, but the document says there is a prototype at Holborn.


This, or something very similar to this, can IIRC be seen on all the
platforms of the Waterloo & City line since the renovation of last
year.

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Boltar wrote:


So thats six stations out of , what , 30 , 40? Are you suggesting
thats actually a useful amount?

Yes. You are saying that it isn't?

What if you are taking a flight from Heathrow?
You could (say) change from the Jubilee at Green Park and go straight to
a Heathrow terminal.
I could go on.

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Boltar wrote:


How exactly does someone in a wheelchair get out and push? Or are that
always supposed to rely on good samaritans to help or take a friend
along everywhere?
Many disabled people are accompanied.
If not, tip the chair back and push using the hands.
Or if an electric wheelchair, use the kerb climber on the front.

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Boltar wrote:

How exactly does someone in a wheelchair get out and push? Or are that
always supposed to rely on good samaritans to help or take a friend
along everywhere?

Your replies on this thread really aren't showing you in a good light.
Disabled people get around this city every day - by power of their own
muscles, electric traction or the help of parents, friends or carers.
And they're on your precious Tube system and buses. The very thought of it.

There - has he disapperared in a puff of incandescant rage yet then?

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Boltar wrote:
Lifts are Green Park, for interchange with Jubilee.
Hammersmith for interchange with the District.
Earls Court for interchange with the District.
Heathrow terminals.
Caledonian Road.

So thats six stations out of , what , 30 , 40? Are you suggesting
thats actually a useful amount?

B2003

Green Park - interchange with Jubilee for journeys to Canary Wharf and
points East.

Hammersmith - shopping. Concerts at the Apollo?

Earls Court - jolly handy for exhibitions. And one stop to Olympia for
more exhibitions. Interchange with District, and one stop to points
Circular.

Heathrow terminals - for catching flights

Caledonian Road - not sure

Hounslow - not sure

Uxbridge - shopping. Going to Brunel Uni.

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In message , John
Hearns writes

George he hump might help the
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/downloads/...gePlatform.pdf

I've never seen one, but the document says there is a prototype at Holborn.

I'm pretty certain I saw one at Leicester Square before Christmas -
possibly the Holborn prototype being tried out at different stations, I
guess.
--
Paul Terry

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On Feb 22, 9:58 am, John Hearns wrote:
Yes. You are saying that it isn't?

Is that a babelfish translation from Korean or something?


What if you are taking a flight from Heathrow?
You could (say) change from the Jubilee at Green Park and go straight to
a Heathrow terminal.
I could go on.

Compared to the other combinations of journeys its a very small
amount.

B2003

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On Feb 22, 10:03 am, John Hearns wrote:
Boltar wrote:
How exactly does someone in a wheelchair get out and push? Or are that
always supposed to rely on good samaritans to help or take a friend
along everywhere?

Your replies on this thread really aren't showing you in a good light.

You mean I don't toe the politically correct party line? Tough. You're
confusing me with someone who gives a damn what other people think of
me.

Disabled people get around this city every day - by power of their own
muscles, electric traction or the help of parents, friends or carers.
And they're on your precious Tube system and buses. The very thought of it.

Good luck to them. Though if its such a breeze I'd suggest they try
the southbound northern line at kings X at around 8.30am in the
morning.
No lift? Packed platforms? Full trains that even able bodied can't get
on half the time? Whats the problem?

There - has he disapperared in a puff of incandescant rage yet then?

More like a rolling of the eyes as people ignore reality in
transparently desperate attempts to get right-on brownie points.

B2003

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On Feb 22, 9:58 am, John Hearns wrote:
Boltar wrote:

So thats six stations out of , what , 30 , 40? Are you suggesting
thats actually a useful amount?

Yes. You are saying that it isn't?

Odd , last time I viewed this post it was corrupted, now I can
actually see what you wrote. Anyway , it may be a useful amount if
only need those stations of routes via , but thats hardly a huge
proportion of the possible total.

B2003

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On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, Edward Cowling London UK wrote:

In message , Tom Anderson
writes
On Tue, 20 Feb 2007, John Hearns wrote:

Boltar wrote:

I don't use the jubilee much but the times I have been on that
section I've not seen any either. Also I can't see how someone would
get on or off a tube in a wheelchair

I have never seen a blue whale with my own eyes.

Oh, you should get down to the Natural History Museum, then. They've a very
good one there.

I think that's actually made of plaster...

Yes. As members of suborder koniamidoceti, blue whales are indeed made of
plaster. Hence their not being preyed on by giant squid. SCIENCE FACT.

tom

--
eviscerated by obfuscation

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On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, Mizter T wrote:

On 21 Feb, 17:33, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 20 Feb 2007, Mike Bristow wrote:
In article . com,
Boltar wrote:

I don't use the jubilee much but the times I have been on that section
I've not seen any either. Also I can't see how someone would get on or
off a tube in a wheelchair train in the rush hour without serious
inconvenience to themselves and other people. Its hard enough for
mothers with prams.

Folk in wheelchairs can be more nimble than mothers with prams; some of
them will have been 'wheeling' for years, but mothers stop pushing prams
as soon as they can.

Not sure i'd agree with that - there are plenty of women pushing around
kids who are clearly old enough to walk. A friend of mine has a bee in her
bonnet about it and always points them out, so i know this to be true!

Tom - dare I say that it's sometimes easier to shove them in a buggy
anyway! Little legs get tired quickly.

Yebbut - it's not at all uncommon to see huge big kids strapped into
buggies and struggling to get out, showing no signs of tiredness at all. I
think in a lot of cases it's more about control, and the parent's
convenience - they can make the kid go wherever they want, at good speed,
without the child being able to oppose them. Great for the parent, pretty
horrific for the child. Not a good start on a healthy, exercise-filled
life, either.

tom

--
eviscerated by obfuscation

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Boltar wrote:


More like a rolling of the eyes as people ignore reality in
transparently desperate attempts to get right-on brownie points.

No search for brownie points.
Just pointing out to you that disabled people travel all over the London
transport network - Tube, rail, bus, DLR, taxis every day.
Whether you like it or not, whether or not you personally have seen them,
and whether or not your oh-so-important journey to work means you
wouldn't give them a bit of room at the rush hour.

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Boltar wrote:
On Feb 22, 10:03 am, John Hearns wrote:
Disabled people get around this city every day - by power of their own
muscles, electric traction or the help of parents, friends or carers.
And they're on your precious Tube system and buses. The very thought of it.

Good luck to them. Though if its such a breeze I'd suggest they try
the southbound northern line at kings X at around 8.30am in the
morning.

Why? I really don't understand your insistence that disabled people need
to use the tube at peak hours in the busiest stations or it doesn't
count. The majority (55 percent) of LU journeys are off-peak. Even if it
were impossible for wheelchair users to use the Tube in the peak, which
it isn't, there would still be 102 hours a week they could use the Tube
off-peak.

At least we've progressed from your previous statements that
wheelchair-people don't travel by LU at all.
--
Michael Hoffman

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Boltar wrote:

Odd , last time I viewed this post it was corrupted, now I can
actually see what you wrote. Anyway , it may be a useful amount if
only need those stations of routes via , but thats hardly a huge
proportion of the possible total.
Eight stations is four times the proportion that two is.

And if you are a regular user of the Piccadilly Line, you'll use on
average two stations a day.

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John Hearns wrote:

And if you are a regular user of the Piccadilly Line, you'll use on
average two stations a day.

Has the Moscow Metro still got only one wheelchair accessible station?

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On Feb 22, 5:44 pm, John Hearns wrote:
Boltar wrote:

More like a rolling of the eyes as people ignore reality in
transparently desperate attempts to get right-on brownie points.

No search for brownie points.
Just pointing out to you that disabled people travel all over the London
transport network - Tube, rail, bus, DLR, taxis every day.
Whether you like it or not, whether or not you personally have seen them,
and whether or not your oh-so-important journey to work means you
wouldn't give them a bit of room at the rush hour.

It wouldn't be a case of whether I would , but whether I could. Have
you ever travelled on the tube in the rush hour? For someone in a
wheelchair to get on a packed rush hour train probably about 2 or 3 or
even 4 people would have to get off to make enough room. I can't
really see that happening can you/

B2003

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On Feb 22, 5:58 pm, Michael Hoffman wrote:
Boltar wrote:
On Feb 22, 10:03 am, John Hearns wrote:
Disabled people get around this city every day - by power of their own
muscles, electric traction or the help of parents, friends or carers.
And they're on your precious Tube system and buses. The very thought of it.

Good luck to them. Though if its such a breeze I'd suggest they try
the southbound northern line at kings X at around 8.30am in the
morning.

Why? I really don't understand your insistence that disabled people need
to use the tube at peak hours in the busiest stations or it doesn't

Because if they're using the tube as a daily method of transport and
not as once-a-month day out (in which case why waste money on disabled
access, just pay for a dial-a-ride taxi) then they'll more than likely
be travelling in the rush hour unless they've managed to get special
dispensation from their boss to work different hours to everyone
else.

count. The majority (55 percent) of LU journeys are off-peak. Even if it
were impossible for wheelchair users to use the Tube in the peak, which
it isn't, there would still be 102 hours a week they could use the Tube
off-peak.

I never said it was impossible. I suspect it would be bloody hard in
central london though they'd probably be ok out in the sticks.

At least we've progressed from your previous statements that
wheelchair-people don't travel by LU at all.

I never said they didn't use the tube , I just said I'd not personally
seen them and given I use the tube twice a day 5 days a week I'd have
thought I'd have seen at least one or two in the last few years if
they were as common as you imply.

B2003

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Boltar wrote:

Because if they're using the tube as a daily method of transport and
not as once-a-month day out (in which case why waste money on disabled
access, just pay for a dial-a-ride taxi) then they'll more than likely
be travelling in the rush hour unless they've managed to get special
dispensation from their boss to work different hours to everyone
else.
This argument is going round in a circle.
DLR fully accessible, as is Jubilee Line extension. More and more Tube
stations are becoming accessible as they are refitted.
Which means more and more wheelchair users can use the system - and do.
More stations opened up equals more journeys being made. Its called a
'network'.

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John Hearns wrote:
Boltar wrote:

Because if they're using the tube as a daily method of transport and
not as once-a-month day out (in which case why waste money on
disabled access, just pay for a dial-a-ride taxi) then they'll more
than likely be travelling in the rush hour unless they've managed to
get special dispensation from their boss to work different hours to
everyone else.

This argument is going round in a circle.

Of course, arguments with trolls tend to!

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Boltar wrote:


It wouldn't be a case of whether I would , but whether I could. Have
you ever travelled on the tube in the rush hour?

I heard on the Internet that the rush hour Tubes in London are too
packed with wheelchairs for you to get on.


(And why the hell should I justify myself to you? I've travelled to work
in London via Tube, rail, bus, bike and river boat).

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Boltar wrote:
On Feb 22, 5:58 pm, Michael Hoffman wrote:
I really don't understand your insistence that disabled people need
to use the tube at peak hours in the busiest stations or it doesn't

Because if they're using the tube as a daily method of transport and
not as once-a-month day out (in which case why waste money on disabled
access, just pay for a dial-a-ride taxi) then they'll more than likely
be travelling in the rush hour unless they've managed to get special
dispensation from their boss to work different hours to everyone
else.

Not "everyone" works hours that require traveling in the peaks. Someone
who has difficulty traveling in the peaks would be more likely to seek a
job that did not require it.
--
Michael Hoffman

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On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, John Hearns wrote:

Boltar wrote:

[snip]

(And why the hell should I justify myself to you? I've travelled to work
in London via Tube, rail, bus, bike and river boat).

What, not space hopper?

tom

--
information distribution, vox humana, deviation, handle, feed, l.g. **

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In message .com,
Boltar writes
I never said they didn't use the tube , I just said I'd not personally
seen them and given I use the tube twice a day 5 days a week I'd have
thought I'd have seen at least one or two in the last few years if
they were as common as you imply.

I spot a lot more Bromptons now I've got my own one. Sometimes you don't
spot things you aren't interested in. They definitely exist!

The other thing is, if one is wheelchair-bound and gets on the tube out
in the sticks (where it isn't so busy), it doesn't matter if the train
get busy, as long as others move aside to let the person off - and here
I think that umbrellas could help even if it isn't raining :P

--
Paul G
Typing from Barking

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On Feb 23, 11:15 am, "John Rowland"
wrote:
This argument is going round in a circle.

Of course, arguments with trolls tend to!

Ah , some things never change on usenet. One mans opinion is another
mans trolling. Still , being called a troll is better than something
out of the PC book of "..ist" words.

B2003