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Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
A friend went to Goodmayes station on Friday morning and asked for a single
to Southall, for which he was charged £5.10. He set off via Liverpool Street and Paddington but when he got to Southall he was told his ticket was invalid and he would have to pay again - £3.10. He explained that he had asked for a ticket to Southall and pointed out that the ticket included zone 4 (both Goodmayes and Southall being in zone 4.) No, he was told, it was only valid on the underground and he would have to pay again - £3.10 please! In that case, he asked, could he just pay from Ealing Broadway and was told that, as he had already admitted travelling from Paddington, the suggestion could trigger a £20 penalty charge! £20 or £3.10 - take your pick, he was told! He elected for the £3.10 option and, to add insult to injury, a comment from another passenger as he left the station made it clear that, in that person's eyes at least, he had been caught for fraudulently evading his fare! He is understandably livid and, when he told me about it, was going to take it up with 'one', who issued the ticket. However, I am not sure that this is the right way to go. His ticket is a Standard Day Single to U1234, valid by any available route and, on checking the NR website for details of the new zonal fare structure, I note that £5.10 is the correct fare for his journey, including the underground. I am assuming that the U in U1234 means that the ticket is also valid on the underground (to differentiate it from the £3.10 ticket which isn't) but, presumably, at Southall it is taken to mean that it is ONLY valid on the underground! Unless there is a way that he could have been sold the wrong ticket for the correct fare at Goodmayes, I feel he has been the victim of First Great Western incompetence and that it is to FGW that he should complain. Is my assumption correct? Terry |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
On Feb 25, 2:20 pm, "Terry Casey" wrote:
I am assuming that the U in U1234 means that the ticket is also valid on the underground (to differentiate it from the £3.10 ticket which isn't) but, presumably, at Southall it is taken to mean that it is ONLY valid on the underground! Unless there is a way that he could have been sold the wrong ticket for the correct fare at Goodmayes, I feel he has been the victim of First Great Western incompetence and that it is to FGW that he should complain. Is my assumption correct? Terry But you can't get to Southall by underground! So unless the inspector was saying your friend should have taken the bus from Ealing Broadway he seems to have been spouting nonsense. I don't think it's 'one's' fault. |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:20:00 GMT, "Terry Casey"
wrote: A friend went to Goodmayes station on Friday morning and asked for a single to Southall, for which he was charged £5.10. He set off via Liverpool Street and Paddington but when he got to Southall he was told his ticket was invalid and he would have to pay again - £3.10. He explained that he had asked for a ticket to Southall and pointed out that the ticket included zone 4 (both Goodmayes and Southall being in zone 4.) No, he was told, it was only valid on the underground and he would have to pay again - £3.10 please! In that case, he asked, could he just pay from Ealing Broadway and was told that, as he had already admitted travelling from Paddington, the suggestion could trigger a £20 penalty charge! £20 or £3.10 - take your pick, he was told! He elected for the £3.10 option and, to add insult to injury, a comment from another passenger as he left the station made it clear that, in that person's eyes at least, he had been caught for fraudulently evading his fare! He is understandably livid and, when he told me about it, was going to take it up with 'one', who issued the ticket. However, I am not sure that this is the right way to go. His ticket is a Standard Day Single to U1234, valid by any available route and, on checking the NR website for details of the new zonal fare structure, I note that £5.10 is the correct fare for his journey, including the underground. I am assuming that the U in U1234 means that the ticket is also valid on the underground (to differentiate it from the £3.10 ticket which isn't) but, presumably, at Southall it is taken to mean that it is ONLY valid on the underground! Unless there is a way that he could have been sold the wrong ticket for the correct fare at Goodmayes, I feel he has been the victim of First Great Western incompetence and that it is to FGW that he should complain. Is my assumption correct? Not 100% certain but from the details given and what I've read I would say he's been charged the right fare by "one" but issued the wrong ticket. At present prices are zonal but tickets are issued from "a to b" which means it should have said Goodmayes to Southall on it and not U1234. This ticket only gives validity to Liv St and then onto the LU network as far as zone 4. I think the FGW ticket person did the right thing (in terms of challenging the incorrectly issued ticket) based on the ticket description but was obviously not prepared to listen or show any discretion or even call up Goodmayes to ask if they had issued the ticket in question. I think the complaint goes to "one" re ticket issuing error and possibly to FGW if your friend considers his treatment to be rude or ill mannered. I'm not sure either company comes out of this very well. I also suspect the training on how to issue these revised tickets is not what it should be but then the whole thing is a complex nightmare - I could never do the job of a NR booking clerk. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
"Terry Casey" wrote in message ... A friend went to Goodmayes station on Friday morning and asked for a single to Southall, for which he was charged £5.10. He set off via Liverpool Street and Paddington but when he got to Southall he was told his ticket was invalid and he would have to pay again - £3.10. He explained that he had asked for a ticket to Southall and pointed out that the ticket included zone 4 (both Goodmayes and Southall being in zone 4.) No, he was told, it was only valid on the underground and he would have to pay again - £3.10 please! In that case, he asked, could he just pay from Ealing Broadway and was told that, as he had already admitted travelling from Paddington, the suggestion could trigger a £20 penalty charge! £20 or £3.10 - take your pick, he was told! He elected for the £3.10 option and, to add insult to injury, a comment from another passenger as he left the station made it clear that, in that person's eyes at least, he had been caught for fraudulently evading his fare! He is understandably livid and, when he told me about it, was going to take it up with 'one', who issued the ticket. However, I am not sure that this is the right way to go. His ticket is a Standard Day Single to U1234, valid by any available route and, on checking the NR website for details of the new zonal fare structure, I note that £5.10 is the correct fare for his journey, including the underground. I am assuming that the U in U1234 means that the ticket is also valid on the underground (to differentiate it from the £3.10 ticket which isn't) but, presumably, at Southall it is taken to mean that it is ONLY valid on the underground! Unless there is a way that he could have been sold the wrong ticket for the correct fare at Goodmayes, I feel he has been the victim of First Great Western incompetence and that it is to FGW that he should complain. Is my assumption correct? The correct ticket is a SDS Goodmayes - Southall for £5.10. A SDS Goodmayes - Zone U1234 is £4.40 and would only be valid at Underground stations in zone 4. So it seems that One sold the cheaper ticket at the more expensive price for some reason and they are at fault (although FGW probably should have given your friend the benefit of the doubt). Peter Smyth |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
"Terry Casey" wrote in message ... A friend went to Goodmayes station on Friday morning and asked for a single to Southall, for which he was charged £5.10. He set off via Liverpool Street and Paddington but when he got to Southall he was told his ticket was invalid and he would have to pay again - £3.10. He explained that he had asked for a ticket to Southall and pointed out that the ticket included zone 4 (both Goodmayes and Southall being in zone 4.) No, he was told, it was only valid on the underground and he would have to pay again - £3.10 please! In that case, he asked, could he just pay from Ealing Broadway and was told that, as he had already admitted travelling from Paddington, the suggestion could trigger a £20 penalty charge! £20 or £3.10 - take your pick, he was told! He elected for the £3.10 option and, to add insult to injury, a comment from another passenger as he left the station made it clear that, in that person's eyes at least, he had been caught for fraudulently evading his fare! He is understandably livid and, when he told me about it, was going to take it up with 'one', who issued the ticket. However, I am not sure that this is the right way to go. His ticket is a Standard Day Single to U1234, valid by any available route and, on checking the NR website for details of the new zonal fare structure, I note that £5.10 is the correct fare for his journey, including the underground. I am assuming that the U in U1234 means that the ticket is also valid on the underground (to differentiate it from the £3.10 ticket which isn't) but, presumably, at Southall it is taken to mean that it is ONLY valid on the underground! Unless there is a way that he could have been sold the wrong ticket for the correct fare at Goodmayes, I feel he has been the victim of First Great Western incompetence and that it is to FGW that he should complain. Is my assumption correct? IMHO the fault lies with 'one'. The Goodmayes ticket office sold him the wrong ticket, though at the right fare. His ticket should have been a Goodmayes to Southall single, priced as including LUL, and should have had the maltese cross to show LUL validity (and encoded to work LUL ticket gates). Perhaps the ticket clerk thought Sothall was an LUL station, or perhaps he had not been trained as to how to issue a zonal fare ticket to a specified National Rail station where the journey also involved LUL travel. The information about zonal fares is he http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...onalFares.html Peter |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
On Feb 25, 2:34�pm, wrote:
On Feb 25, 2:20 pm, "Terry Casey" wrote: I am assuming that the U in U1234 means that the ticket is also valid on the underground (to differentiate it from the £3.10 ticket which isn't) but, presumably, at Southall it is taken to mean that it is ONLY valid on the underground! Unless there is a way that he could have been sold the wrong ticket for the correct fare at Goodmayes, I feel he has been the victim of First Great Western incompetence and that it is to FGW that he should complain. Is my assumption correct? Terry But you can't get to Southall by underground! So unless the inspector was saying your friend should have taken the bus from Ealing Broadway he seems to have been spouting nonsense. I don't think it's 'one's' fault. It depends what was asked for. If he asked for "a single to Southall" at Goodmayes, the ticket should have said "From GOODMAYES To SOUTHALL Route + Any Permitted", and would have cost �5.10. If the final destination is an NR station then the actual station (or, occasionally station group, eg Croydon) must be shown on the ticket. What the purchaser was sold was a ticket to U1234, ie from Goodmayes to a final destination on the Underground in zone 4, involving an Underground journey through zones 1-4, for example Goodmayes to Perivale. Since the introduction of Zonal fares, the cost is the same, but the validity is different. FGW do not get any money from the U1234 ticket, so, quite rightly, they refused the ticket. As I don't know what exactly was asked for, although the OP did say the words "Underground" and "Zone 4" were mentioned, it's difficult to know who was at fault. I suspect, however, that the booking clerk, on hearing the words "Southall in Zone 4", assumed that Southall was on the Underground and sold that ticket. Incidentally, if it was after 0930, a zone 1-4 ODTC at �5.70 may have been a better value option. Moral of the story: Keep it simple. If you want a single to Southall, say so. Don't confuse matters by mentioning zones or the Underground. If an Underground transfer is required, the ticket issuing system will know this. Ken |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
"Peter Smyth" wrote in message ... "Terry Casey" wrote in message ... A friend went to Goodmayes station on Friday morning and asked for a single to Southall, for which he was charged £5.10. He set off via Liverpool Street and Paddington but when he got to Southall he was told his ticket was invalid and he would have to pay again - £3.10. He explained that he had asked for a ticket to Southall and pointed out that the ticket included zone 4 (both Goodmayes and Southall being in zone 4.) No, he was told, it was only valid on the underground and he would have to pay again - £3.10 please! In that case, he asked, could he just pay from Ealing Broadway and was told that, as he had already admitted travelling from Paddington, the suggestion could trigger a £20 penalty charge! £20 or £3.10 - take your pick, he was told! He elected for the £3.10 option and, to add insult to injury, a comment from another passenger as he left the station made it clear that, in that person's eyes at least, he had been caught for fraudulently evading his fare! He is understandably livid and, when he told me about it, was going to take it up with 'one', who issued the ticket. However, I am not sure that this is the right way to go. His ticket is a Standard Day Single to U1234, valid by any available route and, on checking the NR website for details of the new zonal fare structure, I note that £5.10 is the correct fare for his journey, including the underground. I am assuming that the U in U1234 means that the ticket is also valid on the underground (to differentiate it from the £3.10 ticket which isn't) but, presumably, at Southall it is taken to mean that it is ONLY valid on the underground! Unless there is a way that he could have been sold the wrong ticket for the correct fare at Goodmayes, I feel he has been the victim of First Great Western incompetence and that it is to FGW that he should complain. Is my assumption correct? The correct ticket is a SDS Goodmayes - Southall for £5.10. A SDS Goodmayes - Zone U1234 is £4.40 and would only be valid at Underground stations in zone 4. So it seems that One sold the cheaper ticket at the more expensive price for some reason and they are at fault (although FGW probably should have given your friend the benefit of the doubt). Peter Smyth I took the details off the ticket itself and it definitely shows the price as £5.10 - surely it would be impossible to issue the wrong ticket at the correct price (unless there is a software problem or programming error.) Terry |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:20:00 GMT, "Terry Casey"
wrote: A friend went to Goodmayes station on Friday morning and asked for a single to Southall, for which he was charged £5.10. He set off via Liverpool Street and Paddington but when he got to Southall he was told his ticket was invalid and he would have to pay again - £3.10. He explained that he had asked for a ticket to Southall and pointed out that the ticket included zone 4 (both Goodmayes and Southall being in zone 4.) No, he was told, it was only valid on the underground and he would have to pay again - £3.10 please! In that case, he asked, could he just pay from Ealing Broadway and was told that, as he had already admitted travelling from Paddington, the suggestion could trigger a £20 penalty charge! £20 or £3.10 - take your pick, he was told! He elected for the £3.10 option and, to add insult to injury, a comment from another passenger as he left the station made it clear that, in that person's eyes at least, he had been caught for fraudulently evading his fare! He should have refused. If any action was taken he should have sued. He is understandably livid and, when he told me about it, was going to take it up with 'one', who issued the ticket. However, I am not sure that this is the right way to go. His ticket is a Standard Day Single to U1234, valid by any available route and, on checking the NR website for details of the new zonal fare structure, I note that £5.10 is the correct fare for his journey, including the underground. I am assuming that the U in U1234 means that the ticket is also valid on the underground (to differentiate it from the £3.10 ticket which isn't) but, presumably, at Southall it is taken to mean that it is ONLY valid on the underground! Unless there is a way that he could have been sold the wrong ticket for the correct fare at Goodmayes, I feel he has been the victim of First Great Western incompetence and that it is to FGW that he should complain. Is my assumption correct? I would think so. Which is why he would have won his case - with costs. Terry |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
"Ken" wrote in message oups.com... On Feb 25, 2:34?pm, wrote: As I don't know what exactly was asked for, although the OP did say the words "Underground" and "Zone 4" were mentioned, it's difficult to know who was at fault. I suspect, however, that the booking clerk, on hearing the words "Southall in Zone 4", assumed that Southall was on the Underground and sold that ticket. Incidentally, if it was after 0930, a zone 1-4 ODTC at ?5.70 may have been a better value option. Moral of the story: Keep it simple. If you want a single to Southall, say so. Don't confuse matters by mentioning zones or the Underground. If an Underground transfer is required, the ticket issuing system will know this. Ken ------------------------------ My friend asked for a single to Southall, nothing more (at 0720). It was the inspector at Southall who first used the word "Underground" and only then did my friend refer to the zones printed on the ticket, so there was no customer confusion at the Goodmayes end! Terry |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
Terry Casey wrote:
A friend went to Goodmayes station on Friday morning and asked for a single to Southall, for which he was charged £5.10. He set off via Liverpool Street and Paddington but when he got to Southall he was told his ticket was invalid and he would have to pay again - £3.10. snip Unless there is a way that he could have been sold the wrong ticket for the correct fare at Goodmayes, I feel he has been the victim of First Great Western incompetence and that it is to FGW that he should complain. Is my assumption correct? The trouble here is the introduction of zonal ticketing within the Travelcard Area and an associated lack of training. There are two different types of zonal fares that apply now. First up, you have the "rail only" zonal fares, and then there are the "Train-Tube" fares. The latter are the only variety valid on the tube and are issued from the origin station to the appropriate zonal combination (or vice versa). So, in this example, your friend was issued precisely the correct ticket (namely Goodmayes to U1234), and the member of staff at Southall was talking through his backside. Other examples: Surbiton to Maryland would be issued as Surbiton to U1256 Selhurst to Holborn as Selhurst to U1234 Victoria to Morden via Balham as London Terminals to U1234 It's covered in Section L of the National Fares Manual, which can be downloaded via the ATOC site. [1] HTH, Barry [1] https://www.atoc.org/retail/_downloads/NFM95/NFM95_Common_L.pdf |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
On Feb 25, 3:28?pm, Barry Salter wrote:
the So, in this example, your friend was issued precisely the correct ticket (namely Goodmayes to U1234), and the member of staff at Southall was talking through his backside. Incorrect. Southall is an NR station and a ticket to U1234 is not valid. See other posts. Other examples: Surbiton to Maryland would be issued as Surbiton to U1256 No, Surbiton to Maryland (with a + in the routeing). Note the italicised wording "point-to-point" before that example in the NFM. Selhurst to Holborn as Selhurst to U1234 Victoria to Morden via Balham as London Terminals to U1234 Agreed, because the final destination is on LU. Ken |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
Southall is not a ZONAL Destination unless travel is using a
Travelcard. A Point to Point Ticket should have been issued. Appeal against the Penalty Fare on the basis of the wrong ticket being issued. RT |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
On 25 Feb 2007 07:57:50 -0800, "Hertsman" wrote:
Southall is not a ZONAL Destination unless travel is using a Travelcard. A Point to Point Ticket should have been issued. Appeal against the Penalty Fare on the basis of the wrong ticket being issued. And make one heck of a fuss. RT |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
In article ,
Terry Casey wrote: I took the details off the ticket itself and it definitely shows the price as £5.10 - surely it would be impossible to issue the wrong ticket at the correct price (unless there is a software problem or programming error.) Or the two different tickets have the same price. -- David Wild using RISC OS on broadband |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
"Christopher A.Lee" wrote in message ... On 25 Feb 2007 07:57:50 -0800, "Hertsman" wrote: Southall is not a ZONAL Destination unless travel is using a Travelcard. A Point to Point Ticket should have been issued. Appeal against the Penalty Fare on the basis of the wrong ticket being issued. Or re-read the OP properly - he wasn't given a PF, he was 'allowed' to buy a Paddington - Southall ticket. Paul |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
On 25 Feb, 15:14, Christopher A.Lee wrote:
He should have refused. If any action was taken he should have sued. What a world we live in! Yes, he could have taken the penalty, appealed, sued, gone to court and maybe one day got his costs back. OR, he could have paid the £3.10 extra and then visited the station that issued the ticket and got his £3.10 back after explaining that they issued the wrong ticket. Bearing in mind that he wouldn't be awarded any damages (what is the actual loss beyond £3.10?), this could be solved in a matter of days - depending on when he is next at the station. OR, he could write to One and possibly find they'll give some rail vouchers as a gesture of goodwill. Jonathan |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
Terry Casey wrote:
A friend went to Goodmayes station on Friday morning and asked for a single to Southall, for which he was charged £5.10. He set off via Liverpool Street and Paddington but when he got to Southall he was told his ticket was invalid and he would have to pay again - £3.10. He explained that he had asked for a ticket to Southall and pointed out that the ticket included zone 4 (both Goodmayes and Southall being in zone 4.) Wouldn't this be a case for a zero fare excess since the train-tube fare is the same whether the destination is Zone U1234 or Southall? -- Michael Hoffman |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
On 25 Feb, 21:31, Michael Hoffman wrote:
Terry Casey wrote: A friend went to Goodmayes station on Friday morning and asked for a single to Southall, for which he was charged £5.10. He set off via Liverpool Street and Paddington but when he got to Southall he was told his ticket was invalid and he would have to pay again - £3.10. He explained that he had asked for a ticket to Southall and pointed out that the ticket included zone 4 (both Goodmayes and Southall being in zone 4..) Wouldn't this be a case for a zero fare excess since the train-tube fare is the same whether the destination is Zone U1234 or Southall? -- Michael Hoffman Should have taken the £20 PF and then told the inspector that the Penalty Fare guidelines as issued by the SRA (as was), state not to PF passengers from other TOCS or off route. |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
On Feb 25, 9:31 pm, Michael Hoffman wrote:
Terry Casey wrote: A friend went to Goodmayes station on Friday morning and asked for a single to Southall, for which he was charged £5.10. He set off via Liverpool Street and Paddington but when he got to Southall he was told his ticket was invalid and he would have to pay again - £3.10. He explained that he had asked for a ticket to Southall and pointed out that the ticket included zone 4 (both Goodmayes and Southall being in zone 4..) Wouldn't this be a case for a zero fare excess since the train-tube fare is the same whether the destination is Zone U1234 or Southall? Someone did point out that the revenue would be divided differently, and FGW wouldn't get any of it, which was why they would have objected. Looked at that way, it's not much different, logically, from paying in advance for a Ryanair flight and trying to use your booking on a train to Southall because it's the same price. Or handing over your money in one shop and taking goods out of another on the grounds that the price was the same. It's not just a product of the privatised railway, because London Underground was separate before then. BUT I don't think it would be a good idea to pay either a penalty fare or the extra £3.10. The company losing out and the company making the mistake should fight it out amongst themselves. I think there would be zero chance of being prosecuted, and almost zero chance of seeing the money again if one handed it over and tried to claim back later. |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
MIG wrote:
Someone did point out that the revenue would be divided differently, and FGW wouldn't get any of it, which was why they would have objected. Looked at that way, it's not much different, logically, from paying in advance for a Ryanair flight and trying to use your booking on a train to Southall because it's the same price. Or handing over your money in one shop and taking goods out of another on the grounds that the price was the same. It's very different. It's more like if you handed over your money in one shop so you could collect at another location, and then when you got to the location they said you had never paid for the goods. (Not so far-fetched--for example it is possible to pay at the John Lewis in Cambridge and then pick up your items at a remote collection spot several miles away.) -- Michael Hoffman |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
On Feb 25, 11:04 pm, Michael Hoffman wrote:
MIG wrote: Someone did point out that the revenue would be divided differently, and FGW wouldn't get any of it, which was why they would have objected. Looked at that way, it's not much different, logically, from paying in advance for a Ryanair flight and trying to use your booking on a train to Southall because it's the same price. Or handing over your money in one shop and taking goods out of another on the grounds that the price was the same. It's very different. It's more like if you handed over your money in one shop so you could collect at another location, and then when you got to the location they said you had never paid for the goods. (Not so far-fetched--for example it is possible to pay at the John Lewis in Cambridge and then pick up your items at a remote collection spot several miles away.) Let's not confuse the issue of the mistake made here by One, who seem to have sold the wrong ticket, and your point about it being in general a zero excess if you buy a ticket to one place and go to another place where it's the same price, and where there are different companies involved. The ticket would seem to have been to Underground Zone 4, and this is not the same place as Southall, and the trains that go there are not run by the same company (although they should be a nationalised network of course). |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
MIG wrote:
On Feb 25, 11:04 pm, Michael Hoffman wrote: MIG wrote: Someone did point out that the revenue would be divided differently, and FGW wouldn't get any of it, which was why they would have objected. Looked at that way, it's not much different, logically, from paying in advance for a Ryanair flight and trying to use your booking on a train to Southall because it's the same price. Or handing over your money in one shop and taking goods out of another on the grounds that the price was the same. It's very different. It's more like if you handed over your money in one shop so you could collect at another location, and then when you got to the location they said you had never paid for the goods. (Not so far-fetched--for example it is possible to pay at the John Lewis in Cambridge and then pick up your items at a remote collection spot several miles away.) Let's not confuse the issue of the mistake made here by One, who seem to have sold the wrong ticket, and your point about it being in general a zero excess if you buy a ticket to one place and go to another place where it's the same price, and where there are different companies involved. And let's not confuse the issue of the economics from the train company's point of view with my question of whether the inspector could have instead issued a zero fare excess. This would have resulted in the companies dealing with the problem themselves rather than bothering the poor passenger. The ticket would seem to have been to Underground Zone 4, and this is not the same place as Southall, and the trains that go there are not run by the same company (although they should be a nationalised network of course). They're a national (not nationalized) network until it's inconvenient--then they can blame the other company for selling the wrong ticket. -- Michael Hoffman |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:01:12 -0000, Peter Smyth wrote:
The correct ticket is a SDS Goodmayes - Southall for £5.10. A SDS Goodmayes - Zone U1234 is £4.40 and would only be valid at Underground stations in zone 4. How did you arrive at £4.40? I reckon £5.10 is the correct price for a Goodmayes - U1234 ticket. |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:44:54 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:
Not 100% certain but from the details given and what I've read I would say he's been charged the right fare by "one" but issued the wrong ticket. At present prices are zonal but tickets are issued from "a to b" which means it should have said Goodmayes to Southall on it and not U1234. After a close reading of the NFM (and though at first I got the same impression as Barry Salter) I think you're right here. Both tickets are Train Tube Singles, but such a ticket issued to U1234 is only valid for journeys that end at an LU/DLR station. This ticket only gives validity to Liv St and then onto the LU network as far as zone 4. To be pedantic, I don't think this is true, strictly speaking. I reckon it would be valid for a journey such as: 'one' to Liverpool Street; Tube to Victoria; Southern to Balham; Tube to Morden. (Basically, by any combination of LU and NR within the zones on the ticket, as long as you end up at an LU/DLR station. It may or may not be hidden somewhere in some Conditions of Carriage that your route also has to be "reasonable".) However, if your ticket started from a station outside the zones (e.g. Chelmsford to U1234) then it *wouldn't* be a Train Tube Single, and the usual pre-Jan-2006 rules apply, i.e. you *would* be restricted to the LU/DLR network (and interavailable routes) once you got to Liverpool Street (or Stratford, if you changed there). |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
"asdf" wrote in message ... On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:01:12 -0000, Peter Smyth wrote: The correct ticket is a SDS Goodmayes - Southall for £5.10. A SDS Goodmayes - Zone U1234 is £4.40 and would only be valid at Underground stations in zone 4. How did you arrive at £4.40? I reckon £5.10 is the correct price for a Goodmayes - U1234 ticket. £4.40 is the price listed in the National Fares Manual. Peter Smyth |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 05:17:16 +0000, asdf
wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:44:54 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote: Not 100% certain but from the details given and what I've read I would say he's been charged the right fare by "one" but issued the wrong ticket. At present prices are zonal but tickets are issued from "a to b" which means it should have said Goodmayes to Southall on it and not U1234. After a close reading of the NFM (and though at first I got the same impression as Barry Salter) I think you're right here. Both tickets are Train Tube Singles, but such a ticket issued to U1234 is only valid for journeys that end at an LU/DLR station. Having read the NFM details I'm sure I am correct. This ticket only gives validity to Liv St and then onto the LU network as far as zone 4. To be pedantic, I don't think this is true, strictly speaking. I reckon it would be valid for a journey such as: 'one' to Liverpool Street; Tube to Victoria; Southern to Balham; Tube to Morden. Sorry but I think you are wrong with this example. Victoria to Balham is not interavailable so is in effect another TOC journey. I doubt very much that the ticket would work the gates on the interchange at Victoria or at Balham. I appreciate the NFM cites the above link in an example but only for tickets issued from London Terminals to U1234 - this is fine as it covers Southern to Balham and then a continuation on LU to Morden. A ticket purchaser would have to decide whether they wished to use NR and then only LU to reach Balham or else buy a ticket from their origin to Balham (NR) and then rebook to Morden. Other than a One Day Travelcard I do not think there is a ticket that allows NR - LU - NR - LU as a set of journey legs where the NR legs are not interavailable with a LU service. (Basically, by any combination of LU and NR within the zones on the ticket, as long as you end up at an LU/DLR station. It may or may not be hidden somewhere in some Conditions of Carriage that your route also has to be "reasonable".) The rules say "any permitted" route but subject to the differing basic availabilities of NR Zonal and Train Tube Zonal products. However, if your ticket started from a station outside the zones (e.g. Chelmsford to U1234) then it *wouldn't* be a Train Tube Single, and the usual pre-Jan-2006 rules apply, i.e. you *would* be restricted to the LU/DLR network (and interavailable routes) once you got to Liverpool Street (or Stratford, if you changed there). You'd be restricted to the TfL rail network within the zones requested on your ticket. The NFM extract also says you could effectively ask for a London terminals to "U" combination where there was not a through fare to "U" defined in the ticketing system. I think I'm glad I'm not a booking clerk! -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
There are two different types of zonal fares that apply now. First up, you
have the "rail only" zonal fares, and then there are the "Train-Tube" fares. The latter are the only variety valid on the tube and are issued from the origin station to the appropriate zonal combination (or vice versa). So, in this example, your friend was issued precisely the correct ticket (namely Goodmayes to U1234), and the member of staff at Southall was talking through his backside. My reading of the NFM section quoted was that the ticket price was based on the zonal fares but that it should still be issued as a point to point ticket. I often used to buy a single from East Croydon to Edmonton Green. The ticket office staff at East Croydon invariably looked up Edmonton Green in a big book and then issued me with an East Croydon to U1234 ticket. It used to annoy me because it cost more than the correct single ticket. I never realised I was also travelling on an invalid ticket. G. |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
On 26 Feb, 20:28, "Graham J" wrote:
I often used to buy a single from East Croydon to Edmonton Green. *The ticket office staff at East Croydon invariably looked up Edmonton Green in a big book and then issued me with an East Croydon to U1234 ticket. *It used to annoy me because it cost more than the correct single ticket. *I never realised I was also travelling on an invalid ticket. G. IMX both as a booking clerk, sorry Customer Service Officer, and as a passenger, is that the procedure, especially at stations outside or on the other side of London, goes like this: Pax: Single to (eg) Streatham Hill please. Clerk: (1) Looks up Travelcard/london Fare Area map and sees SRH is in Zone 3, OR (to colleague), "What zone's Streatham Hill in, Dave?") (2) Issues SDS to U123. Many staff simply don't understand the difference, as the original Goodmayes example, and now East Croydon, show. Adequate training is the only answer. My advice to colleagues was always if you were unsure, try to issue as a point-to point. If this doesn't work, then it's more than likely on the Underground, so then check the Travelcard map and issue a U-zone ticket. There is always the possibility that it is a non-existent place, though - I was recently asked for a single to "Bell Common Green". Turned out it was Bush Hill Park (Enfield) he wanted. Ken |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
"Ken" wrote There is always the possibility that it is a non-existent place, though - I was recently asked for a single to "Bell Common Green". Turned out it was Bush Hill Park (Enfield) he wanted. There is also the possibility that the passenger gives the name of a station, but actually wants to go somewhere entirely different. The Southern Region's prime example was Grove Park. The passenger may want the junction for the Bromley North branch, but he might possibly really want Chiswick (as Chiswick station is in the area known as Grove Park). Peter |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:17:54 -0000, "Peter Masson"
wrote: "Ken" wrote There is always the possibility that it is a non-existent place, though - I was recently asked for a single to "Bell Common Green". Turned out it was Bush Hill Park (Enfield) he wanted. There is also the possibility that the passenger gives the name of a station, but actually wants to go somewhere entirely different. The Southern Region's prime example was Grove Park. The passenger may want the junction for the Bromley North branch, but he might possibly really want Chiswick (as Chiswick station is in the area known as Grove Park). And there are the AMerican tourists used to dropping "Street", "Road" etc. When they ask for "Baker" it's obvious, but "Oxford"? Even "Edgware"? Peter |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 18:13:34 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:
This ticket only gives validity to Liv St and then onto the LU network as far as zone 4. To be pedantic, I don't think this is true, strictly speaking. I reckon it would be valid for a journey such as: 'one' to Liverpool Street; Tube to Victoria; Southern to Balham; Tube to Morden. Sorry but I think you are wrong with this example. Victoria to Balham is not interavailable so is in effect another TOC journey. Yes, I deliberately chose an example that was not interavailable. A ticket purchaser would have to decide whether they wished to use NR and then only LU to reach Balham or else buy a ticket from their origin to Balham (NR) and then rebook to Morden. Other than a One Day Travelcard I do not think there is a ticket that allows NR - LU - NR - LU as a set of journey legs where the NR legs are not interavailable with a LU service. OK, I couldn't see any reason why you couldn't do NR-LU-NR-LU within the zones on your ticket, but I suppose it doesn't explicitly say you *can* either, so you'd be taking your chances with what the RPIs would accept. |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
On 27 Feb, 19:22, Christopher A.Lee wrote:
And there are the AMerican tourists used to dropping "Street", "Road" etc. When they ask for "Baker" it's obvious, but "Oxford"? Even "Edgware"? I once spent ages as a new booking clerk explaining to an American lady how to change stations in London to Paddington, change again at Swindon, and then, after several hours, you'll get to Gloucester. I printed off her itinerary, showed her on the map, and told her the fare was about GBP50. And then she said "That's near the Kensington High Street, right?". "Aaagh! You want Gloucester ROAD!". And of course when CT ran through to Liverpool (Lime St) you got, every day, "this the Liverpool train?". "No, do you want the City of Liverpool, or London Liverpool Street?" "Liverpool, Liverpool. I want go Liverpool station". And so it went on. Not to mention Ely vs. Ealing, or, my favourite, a Nigerian lady plus 2 kids who asked me for a ticket (in London) to "Te'fo'd". So I sold her SVRs to Telford and sent her off to Euston, telling her "Change at Wolverhampton". Two hours later she came back. "I wanted a ticket to "TEHT-ford, T-H-E-T-F-O-R-D". Oops. Ken |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
"Ken" wrote Not to mention Ely vs. Ealing, or, my favourite, a Nigerian lady plus 2 kids who asked me for a ticket (in London) to "Te'fo'd". So I sold her SVRs to Telford and sent her off to Euston, telling her "Change at Wolverhampton". Two hours later she came back. "I wanted a ticket to "TEHT-ford, T-H-E-T-F-O-R-D". Oops. Bill Hayles has a lovely story of confusion between Oval and Yeovil. ;-) Peter Ken |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 08:32:32 -0000, Peter Smyth wrote:
The correct ticket is a SDS Goodmayes - Southall for £5.10. A SDS Goodmayes - Zone U1234 is £4.40 and would only be valid at Underground stations in zone 4. How did you arrive at £4.40? I reckon £5.10 is the correct price for a Goodmayes - U1234 ticket. £4.40 is the price listed in the National Fares Manual. That's odd - I don't have the printed NFM (and therefore the main fares tables), but the text in Section L says that the fare for this ticket is determined by Table 2 on page L4, which says £5.10. |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
"asdf" wrote in message ... On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 08:32:32 -0000, Peter Smyth wrote: The correct ticket is a SDS Goodmayes - Southall for £5.10. A SDS Goodmayes - Zone U1234 is £4.40 and would only be valid at Underground stations in zone 4. How did you arrive at £4.40? I reckon £5.10 is the correct price for a Goodmayes - U1234 ticket. £4.40 is the price listed in the National Fares Manual. That's odd - I don't have the printed NFM (and therefore the main fares tables), but the text in Section L says that the fare for this ticket is determined by Table 2 on page L4, which says £5.10. On the TfL site http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...sh-singles.asp it says Tube/DLR - Train fares cover through-journeys between the Tube/DLR and National Rail and from National Rail to National Rail via the Tube/DLR. They are the maximum that you will pay for a single journey in the London zonal area. So I think the fares in Table 2 are only maximums and TOCs are free to set prices for specific journeys lower if they so wish. Peter Smyth |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:32:30 -0000, "Peter Masson"
wrote: "Ken" wrote Not to mention Ely vs. Ealing, or, my favourite, a Nigerian lady plus 2 kids who asked me for a ticket (in London) to "Te'fo'd". So I sold her SVRs to Telford and sent her off to Euston, telling her "Change at Wolverhampton". Two hours later she came back. "I wanted a ticket to "TEHT-ford, T-H-E-T-F-O-R-D". Oops. Bill Hayles has a lovely story of confusion between Oval and Yeovil. ;-) I'll never forget that one, mainly because of the good humour on the part of the lady who wanted the ticket - much better to have a good laugh than get annoyed. One confusion that happened on several occasions was people arriving at Hayes (Kent) wanting Hayes (Middlesex). It probably happened with Ashford to Ashford (for which I remember seeing a ticket from one to the other) and Gillingham to Gillingham, but I can't recall a real life example. I remember meny years ago as a teenager trying to get a ticket to Chelsfield (where I lived) and being issued with one to Chestfield, which I'm sure occasionally gets confused with Chesterfield and so life goes on. -- Bill Hayles http://www.rossrail.com |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
In message , Bill Hayles
writes It probably happened with Ashford to Ashford (for which I remember seeing a ticket from one to the other) and Gillingham to Gillingham, but I can't recall a real life example. I've certainly suffered the Gillingham confusion, although not by train. A couple of years ago I was working in Canterbury for a client for a week, and was told that I'd need to pop up the road to Gillingham one afternoon. Despite being pronounced with a soft G it turned out to be a return drive to Dorset :( -- Paul Terry |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
In message , at 11:11:51 on Wed, 28 Feb
2007, Paul Terry remarked: It probably happened with Ashford to Ashford (for which I remember seeing a ticket from one to the other) and Gillingham to Gillingham, but I can't recall a real life example. I've certainly suffered the Gillingham confusion, although not by train. A couple of years ago I was working in Canterbury for a client for a week, and was told that I'd need to pop up the road to Gillingham one afternoon. Despite being pronounced with a soft G it turned out to be a return drive to Dorset :( I've had the Ashford problem. Invited to meet a client by a third party, who was convinced it was the Middx one, and only at the very last minute changed his mind to Kent. -- Roland Perry |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
In message
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 11:11:51 on Wed, 28 Feb 2007, Paul Terry remarked: It probably happened with Ashford to Ashford (for which I remember seeing a ticket from one to the other) and Gillingham to Gillingham, but I can't recall a real life example. I've certainly suffered the Gillingham confusion, although not by train. A couple of years ago I was working in Canterbury for a client for a week, and was told that I'd need to pop up the road to Gillingham one afternoon. Despite being pronounced with a soft G it turned out to be a return drive to Dorset :( I've had the Ashford problem. Invited to meet a client by a third party, who was convinced it was the Middx one, and only at the very last minute changed his mind to Kent. I've been sent to Farnham when the interviewee was in Fareham. Oh how we laffed! We had a sub-editor who was renowned for these sort of mistakes by the name of Mark Bayliss. One good one was being sent to cover the Orient Express visiting Weymouth. I'd actually covered the story the previous week so we had a gentle drive down to Weymouth, a good lunch and then phoned into the office to find where the train had got to. The girl in the newsroom looked on her computer and came back with 'You've been Baylissed!' Apparently he was sat behind her at the time. -- Graeme Wall This address is not read, substitute trains for rail. Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html |
Southall - Zonal fare rip-off?
Bill Hayles typed
One confusion that happened on several occasions was people arriving at Hayes (Kent) wanting Hayes (Middlesex). I saw that when I travelled to Orpington Hospital, where I worked at the time. Very unhappy passenger, very late for appointment... I remember meny years ago as a teenager trying to get a ticket to Chelsfield so close to my old workplace... (where I lived) and being issued with one to Chestfield, which I'm sure occasionally gets confused with Chesterfield and so life goes on. -- Helen D. Vecht: Edgware. |
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