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Ticket scam
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Ticket scam
Nicks wrote:
Not good if you stocked up.... http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/englan...on/6397239.stm http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent....asp?prID=1069 "The current design will no longer be accepted on London Buses after 30 June 30, and we would advise anyone with spare tickets at home to use them over the next four months as there will be no refund or exchange of tickets." Can this be legal? If there was never any indication that the Bus Savers could expire, then it seems like it would be a violation of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations. -- Michael Hoffman |
Ticket scam
"Michael Hoffman" wrote: Can this be legal? If there was never any indication that the Bus Savers could expire, then it seems like it would be a violation of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations. But did TfL say the tickets would never expire? I bet they didn't. Allowing four months to use up residual stocks doesn't sound like an unfair contract to me, anyway. If anyone does sue TfL successfully on this matter, remind me to let my mum know. She's still walking around with a purse full of Multi Ride tickets and 'scratch panel' One Day Bus Passes! Chris |
Ticket scam
Chris Read wrote:
"Michael Hoffman" wrote: Can this be legal? If there was never any indication that the Bus Savers could expire, then it seems like it would be a violation of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations. But did TfL say the tickets would never expire? I bet they didn't. It doesn't matter. If they didn't provide an expiration date when the contract was made, then the contract should be enforceable at law until the six year statute of limitations runs out. It is unfair for them to be able to unilaterally decide on an expiration date later without providing a refund. This seems to fall under several of the unfair terms: (d) permitting the seller or supplier to retain sums paid by the consumer where the latter decides not to conclude or perform the contract, without providing for the consumer to receive compensation of an equivalent amount from the seller or supplier where the latter is the party cancelling the contract; (f) authorising the seller or supplier to dissolve the contract on a discretionary basis where the same facility is not granted to the consumer, or permitting the seller or supplier to retain the sums paid for services not yet supplied by him where it is the seller or supplier himself who dissolves the contract; (g) enabling the seller or supplier to terminate a contract of indeterminate duration without reasonable notice except where there are serious grounds for doing so; (i) irrevocably binding the consumer to terms with which he had no real opportunity of becoming acquainted before the conclusion of the contract; (j) enabling the seller or supplier to alter the terms of the contract unilaterally without a valid reason which is specified in the contract; (o) obliging the consumer to fulfil all his obligations where the seller or supplier does not perform his; Allowing four months to use up residual stocks doesn't sound like an unfair contract to me, anyway. When it has previously been much longer than four months, even when the price for new savers has gone up, I don't think it is fair or reasonable to change it now without warning. If anyone does sue TfL successfully on this matter, remind me to let my mum know. She's still walking around with a purse full of Multi Ride tickets and 'scratch panel' One Day Bus Passes! If she bought them more than six years ago, then they are worthless. -- Michael Hoffman |
Ticket scam
On Feb 26, 6:09 pm, "Nicks" wrote:
Not good if you stocked up.... http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/englan...on/6397239.stm I'm surprised they've bothered to change them and haven't just discontinued them. They now work out at the same price as Oyster Prepay, and the carnet ticket on the tube has been abolished too. In addition, it would make Bendybus boarding easier - anyone could board by any door. As an aside, how do these tickets work when "revenue protection" boards buses. How do they prove the torn off stub was actually given to the driver and isn't still in your pocket? |
Ticket scam
On Feb 27, 10:07 am, wrote:
As an aside, how do these tickets work when "revenue protection" boards buses. How do they prove the torn off stub was actually given to the driver and isn't still in your pocket? AIUI, RP collect the tickets from the driver first, then match them up with the stubs retained by the pax. -- Rob |
Ticket scam
Rob Hamadi wrote:
AIUI, RP collect the tickets from the driver first, then match them up with the stubs retained by the pax. Correct. I wondered about this too, until the day the inspectors boarded my bus. They simply ask the driver if they've taken any Saver tickets on that journey - usually there aren't many, if any. Then they go through the bus with that ticket in their sticky mitt, looking for the relevant stub. "Oh, it's you, is it, we wondered who had the Saver ticket." And the Oyster cards of course are read by some clever kind of hand held card reading device. -- Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK ================================= |
Ticket scam
On Feb 26, 8:14 pm, "Chris Read" wrote:
Allowing four months to use up residual stocks doesn't sound like an unfair contract to me, anyway. The Dutch typically allow one fare change, which I think basically gives about a year (may be two) for Strippenkaarten. Why not just withdraw Saver tickets completely? Surely Oyster has superceded them to any practical extent? Neil |
Ticket scam
On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:27:40 +0000, Joyce Whitchurch
wrote: Rob Hamadi wrote: AIUI, RP collect the tickets from the driver first, then match them up with the stubs retained by the pax. Correct. I wondered about this too, until the day the inspectors boarded my bus. They simply ask the driver if they've taken any Saver tickets on that journey - usually there aren't many, if any. Then they go through the bus with that ticket in their sticky mitt, looking for the relevant stub. "Oh, it's you, is it, we wondered who had the Saver ticket." And the Oyster cards of course are read by some clever kind of hand held card reading device. I travelled on the RV1 on Saturday from London Bridge to Aldwych. The bus was very busy and it was mildly amusing to watch people variously touch their saver ticket on the Oyster pad, not know to tear their Saver ticket in half along the perforation, show their Oyster card to the driver but upside down and touch a One Day Travelcard on the Oyster pad. I think all of the "victims" were tourists but it made me consider just how confusing our various ticketing options are to them. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Ticket scam
Neil Williams wrote:
Why not just withdraw Saver tickets completely? Surely Oyster has superceded them to any practical extent? Too much faffing about for the occasional visitor, especially tourists. You have to pay 3 quid deposit to get an Oyster in the first place, then claim a refund when you hand it in. -- Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK ================================= Old enough to remember something similar to Saver tickets in Glasgow some twenty-odd years ago |
Ticket scam
On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 05:17:47PM +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:
I travelled on the RV1 on Saturday from London Bridge to Aldwych. The bus was very busy and it was mildly amusing to watch people variously touch their saver ticket on the Oyster pad, not know to tear their Saver ticket in half along the perforation, show their Oyster card to the driver but upside down and touch a One Day Travelcard on the Oyster pad. I think all of the "victims" were tourists but it made me consider just how confusing our various ticketing options are to them. No more confusing, really, than the ticketing options anywhere else. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be fixed, but just you try figgering out the best tickets to get for - say - a group of four people in Dusseldorf who want to stay in the city centre for three days but take one side-trip to the Neanderthal Museum. My solution, by the way, was to not bother. Taxis between Hbf and hotel, walk everywhere in town, return ticket from Hbf to $somewhere, and pay cash for the buses between there and the museum. Much easier. -- David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic You are so cynical. And by "cynical", of course, I mean "correct". -- Kurt Starsinic |
Ticket scam
Joyce Whitchurch wrote:
Neil Williams wrote: Why not just withdraw Saver tickets completely? Surely Oyster has superceded them to any practical extent? Too much faffing about for the occasional visitor, especially tourists. You have to pay 3 quid deposit to get an Oyster in the first place, then claim a refund when you hand it in. Surely going to the ticket stop is faffing about as well. They can just buy the expensive cash fares. Or get an Oyster card. -- Michael Hoffman |
Ticket scam
Chris Read wrote:
Allowing four months to use up residual stocks doesn't sound like an unfair contract to me, anyway. That's a matter of opinion. I bought 4 x 6 tickets when they were 65p a ticket. I still have 2 x 6 left. I'll have to sell most of them - though I suppose I might make a small profit. £5 for 6 tickets including postage, anyone? From email address works. Colin McKenzie -- No-one has ever proved that cycle helmets make cycling any safer at the population level, and anyway cycling is about as safe per mile as walking. Make an informed choice - visit www.cyclehelmets.org. |
Ticket scam
Michael Hoffman wrote:
Surely going to the ticket stop is faffing about as well. They can just buy the expensive cash fares. Or get an Oyster card. Well, you can only buy the expensive cash fares if there's a machine and it's working and you've got the right change. But TBH I'm surprised that Saver tickets ever got off the ground in the first place. They were particularly easy to fiddle when Routemasters ruled the earth - not many conductors could remember who'd given them a ticket and who'd not. -- Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK ================================= |
Ticket scam
On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:44:43 +0000, David Cantrell
wrote: On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 05:17:47PM +0000, Paul Corfield wrote: I travelled on the RV1 on Saturday from London Bridge to Aldwych. The bus was very busy and it was mildly amusing to watch people variously touch their saver ticket on the Oyster pad, not know to tear their Saver ticket in half along the perforation, show their Oyster card to the driver but upside down and touch a One Day Travelcard on the Oyster pad. I think all of the "victims" were tourists but it made me consider just how confusing our various ticketing options are to them. No more confusing, really, than the ticketing options anywhere else. Oh granted. It was the first time I'd really noticed the confusion first hand. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be fixed, but just you try figgering out the best tickets to get for - say - a group of four people in Dusseldorf who want to stay in the city centre for three days but take one side-trip to the Neanderthal Museum. My solution, by the way, was to not bother. Taxis between Hbf and hotel, walk everywhere in town, return ticket from Hbf to $somewhere, and pay cash for the buses between there and the museum. Much easier. I agree some ticket products - particularly group ones - can be rather complex. However I do struggle with the apparent resistance of people not to get an PAYG Oyster card even if it does involve payment of a deposit. I had an Octopus card for HK for many years even though I only visited every 1-2 years. It took seconds to get it checked and re-enabled if it had become blacklisted through lack of use. Similarly I was in Singapore last Christmas and about my first purchase was the E-Z link card for MRT and Buses. You pay for the card *and* a deposit *and* travel value but the convenience factor far outweighs these costs in my view. I didn't surrender it before leaving but will keep it for a return visit. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Ticketing choices (was Ticket scam)
Paul Corfield wrote:
I agree some ticket products - particularly group ones - can be rather complex. However I do struggle with the apparent resistance of people not to get an PAYG Oyster card even if it does involve payment of a deposit. I had an Octopus card for HK for many years even though I only visited every 1-2 years. It took seconds to get it checked and re-enabled if it had become blacklisted through lack of use. Similarly I was in Singapore last Christmas and about my first purchase was the E-Z link card for MRT and Buses. You pay for the card *and* a deposit *and* travel value but the convenience factor far outweighs these costs in my view. I didn't surrender it before leaving but will keep it for a return visit. Once every major city has one it will be pretty difficult to keep up for world travelers. Especially if they are not enthusiasts who enjoy keeping such things. -- Michael Hoffman |
Ticketing choices (was Ticket scam)
Will these cards be able to "roam" in Europe at some point?
"Michael Hoffman" wrote in message ... Paul Corfield wrote: Once every major city has one it will be pretty difficult to keep up for world travelers. Especially if they are not enthusiasts who enjoy keeping such things. -- Michael Hoffman |
Ticket scam
On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:20:55 +0000, Joyce Whitchurch
wrote: But TBH I'm surprised that Saver tickets ever got off the ground in the first place. They were particularly easy to fiddle when Routemasters ruled the earth - not many conductors could remember who'd given them a ticket and who'd not. Not any more than they could remember who they'd sold a cash fare to or seen a Travelcard from, presumably? They're no harder to fiddle than the Strippenkaart is, though the disadvantage of the tear-offs is that you can't allow free transfers. While Oyster is clearly better, the concept would apply well to regional bus operators who aren't planning smartcards any time soon. If MK Metro introduced them, I'd certainly carry a book, even if the price was the same as the regular fare. It's just more convenient. Neil |
Ticketing choices (was Ticket scam)
On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:55:57 +0000, Michael Hoffman
wrote: Once every major city has one it will be pretty difficult to keep up for world travelers. Especially if they are not enthusiasts who enjoy keeping such things. Especially given that some of them (e.g. the EZ-Link) expire. I think you only get a year, so mine's a pure souvenir. Neil |
Ticketing choices (was Ticket scam)
On Fri, 02 Mar 2007 08:00:27 GMT, wrote:
Will these cards be able to "roam" in Europe at some point? Probably not worth the cost. Also, implementing things like capping might be complicated. Probably better that, unless the banks get involved in a general Mondex-style micropayment system, there are easy ways of obtaining and cashing back in such a card in all locations, such as vending machines that are now appearing to sell (but not take back) Oyster. Neil |
Ticket scam
Joyce Whitchurch wrote:
Neil Williams wrote: Why not just withdraw Saver tickets completely? Surely Oyster has superceded them to any practical extent? Too much faffing about for the occasional visitor, especially tourists. You have to pay 3 quid deposit to get an Oyster in the first place, then claim a refund when you hand it in. Or keep it until you next come back. Our wonderful city is worth a return visit you know! ;-) And I think we've said before, a little homework before the start might make it cheaper to loose the £3 deposit vs. the difference between cash fares and prepay. We have two spare Oyster cards at home which we top up & lend to friends and family when they come down to stop with us. -- Phil Richards, London, UK 3,600+ railway photos since 1980 at: http://europeanrail.fotopic.net http://britishrail.fotopic.net |
Ticket scam
Paul Corfield wrote:
I think all of the "victims" were tourists but it made me consider just how confusing our various ticketing options are to them. Probably a good proportion of the tourists from outside of Europe probably never even use public transport (except planes & taxis) back in their home country on a regular basis. -- Phil Richards, London, UK 3,600+ railway photos since 1980 at: http://europeanrail.fotopic.net http://britishrail.fotopic.net |
Ticket scam
Chris Read wrote:
"Michael Hoffman" wrote: Can this be legal? If there was never any indication that the Bus Savers could expire, then it seems like it would be a violation of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations. But did TfL say the tickets would never expire? I bet they didn't. They didn't. For the discontinued Tube Carnet sold before the January 2006 fare change they had to be used up by the expiry period which IIRC was one year after the issue date. That's crystal clear and an example of how one could catch them out up trying to sneak this one through. Suggest anyone who might want to pursue this arms themselves with the current Conditions of Carriage, read page 21 onwards. -- Phil Richards, London, UK 3,600+ railway photos since 1980 at: http://europeanrail.fotopic.net http://britishrail.fotopic.net |
Ticket scam
On Sat, 03 Mar 2007 08:16:32 +0000, Phil Richards
wrote: We have two spare Oyster cards at home which we top up & lend to friends and family when they come down to stop with us. If I lived in London I'd certainly do that. The Strippenkaart is slightly more convenient in that respect as you can let a group travel on one ticket (just stamp it twice) but of course you can't really have that *and* capping, and in the great scheme of things I'd rather have capping. Neil |
Ticket scam
On 26 Feb, 18:44, Michael Hoffman wrote:
Can this be legal? If there was never any indication that the Bus Savers could expire, then it seems like it would be a violation of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations. You could always apply to TfL to have your tickets refunded or replaced. Unless you've been stockpiling the tickets in order to engage in some kind of scam, I don't see why they shouldn't agree to do so. |
Ticket scam
Sherilyn wrote:
On 26 Feb, 18:44, Michael Hoffman wrote: Can this be legal? If there was never any indication that the Bus Savers could expire, then it seems like it would be a violation of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations. You could always apply to TfL to have your tickets refunded or replaced. Unless you've been stockpiling the tickets in order to engage in some kind of scam, I don't see why they shouldn't agree to do so. If I were in that situation, yes, the first thing I would do would be to ask firmly and nicely. But they have already stated publicly that they will not refund or exchange current Savers. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent....asp?prID=1069 -- Michael Hoffman |
Ticket scam
On 3 Mar, 16:50, Michael Hoffman wrote:
But they have already stated publicly that they will not refund or exchange current Savers. I wonder if they simply cannot reliably distinguish counterfeits from real tickets. If so that's unfortunate. I think giving people up to June to use them up seems reasonable, though there may be one or two people with large stockpiles to insure against possible fare rises or something of the sort. |
Ticket scam
On Mar 3, 4:54 pm, "Sherilyn" wrote:
On 3 Mar, 16:50, Michael Hoffman wrote: But they have already stated publicly that they will not refund or exchange current Savers. I wonder if they simply cannot reliably distinguish counterfeits from real tickets. If so that's unfortunate. I think giving people up to June to use them up seems reasonable, though there may be one or two people with large stockpiles to insure against possible fare rises or something of the sort. Contrary to the impression given in the article, there have already been two (or perhaps one and a half) designs of Saver ticket put into circulation. The original ones were as pictured, but at some point an amended design was issued. The newer type are identical to the original version, with the addition of little embossed TFL logos (or Dwarfish mine sign) repeated throughout. AFAIR, no announcement was ever made invalidating the old, un-embossed design. It would be interesting to know whether the majority of counterfeiters have bothered to replicate the embossing on V1.5 tickets, or if they've simply stuck to churning out copies of V1.0. -- Rob |
Ticket scam
"Sherilyn" wrote in message oups.com... On 26 Feb, 18:44, Michael Hoffman wrote: Can this be legal? If there was never any indication that the Bus Savers could expire, then it seems like it would be a violation of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations. You could always apply to TfL to have your tickets refunded or replaced. Unless you've been stockpiling the tickets in order to engage in some kind of scam, I don't see why they shouldn't agree to do so. Because it is adminstratively costly for them to do so. tim |
Ticket scam
"Sherilyn" wrote in message oups.com... On 3 Mar, 16:50, Michael Hoffman wrote: But they have already stated publicly that they will not refund or exchange current Savers. I wonder if they simply cannot reliably distinguish counterfeits from real tickets. If so that's unfortunate. I think giving people up to June to use them up seems reasonable, though there may be one or two people with large stockpiles to insure against possible fare rises or something of the sort. I think a bigger problem is going to be people who have a stock and use 1 or 2 each month o even less frequently (perhaps because they don't actually live in London. It seem unreasonable to expect these people to lose out through no fault of their own. tim |
Ticket scam
tim..... wrote:
"Sherilyn" wrote in message oups.com... On 26 Feb, 18:44, Michael Hoffman wrote: Can this be legal? If there was never any indication that the Bus Savers could expire, then it seems like it would be a violation of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations. You could always apply to TfL to have your tickets refunded or replaced. Unless you've been stockpiling the tickets in order to engage in some kind of scam, I don't see why they shouldn't agree to do so. Because it is adminstratively costly for them to do so. I don't think that changes their legal obligation. -- Michael Hoffman |
Ticket scam
Neil Williams wrote:
On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:20:55 +0000, Joyce Whitchurch wrote: But TBH I'm surprised that Saver tickets ever got off the ground in the first place. They were particularly easy to fiddle when Routemasters ruled the earth - not many conductors could remember who'd given them a ticket and who'd not. Not any more than they could remember who they'd sold a cash fare to or seen a Travelcard from, presumably? They could ask to see the ticket or the Travelcard again though. But if you showed them a Saver ticket, they couldn't remember if they'd already taken the stub or not, short of digging through a pile of stubs in their bag. I suppose that problem lessened as fewer and fewer people used Savers. -- Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK ================================= |
Ticket scam
On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 22:35:50 +0000, Joyce Whitchurch
wrote: They could ask to see the ticket or the Travelcard again though. But if you showed them a Saver ticket, they couldn't remember if they'd already taken the stub or not, short of digging through a pile of stubs in their bag. Fair point, though they could presumably keep the stubs from that journey in a pocket. I wonder why TfL didn't think of the Dutch idea of issuing a rubber stamp to drivers/conductors instead? Quicker boarding? Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
Ticket scam
In message , Joyce Whitchurch
writes They could ask to see the ticket or the Travelcard again though. But if you showed them a Saver ticket, they couldn't remember if they'd already taken the stub or not, short of digging through a pile of stubs in their bag. I suppose that problem lessened as fewer and fewer people used Savers. A clippy eyes everyone getting on the bus before letting the driver drive away, then they head for those people for fares or tickets. -- Clive. |
Ticket scam
On 3 Mar, 08:16, Phil Richards wrote:
We have two spare Oyster cards at home which we top up & lend to friends and family when they come down to stop with us. This makes a lot of sense. I've given my sister an Oyster Prepay that I wasn't using so that she can save money and time by topping up at Kings Cross when she's in town. The alternative would be a huge queue and ridiculous prices. |
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