Central Line Timetable
 

On Monday morning, an entertaining driver on the central line informed
us that this was "the 09:18 from Woodford, calling all stations to
West Ruislip, due to Stratford at 09:xx, Liverpool street at 09:yy,
and Holborn at 09:zz"

While this is guessable (Epping to White City takes bang on an hour on
most trips), I am dimly ware that there are working timetables for
tube lines. How often to trains run to these times, and is it possible
to get a copy of these? With a 10-15 minute wait at the extremeties,
even at 9AM, it would be nice to see when trains are due. Some lines
have a live ETA, but the central line doesn't. The WAP service at
http://wap.tfl.gov.uk/tfldepboard/ tends to break down whenever I try
and use it in anger :(

Central Line Timetable
 

"Paul Weaver" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Monday morning, an entertaining driver on the central line informed
us that this was "the 09:18 from Woodford, calling all stations to
West Ruislip, due to Stratford at 09:xx, Liverpool street at 09:yy,
and Holborn at 09:zz"

While this is guessable (Epping to White City takes bang on an hour on
most trips), I am dimly ware that there are working timetables for
tube lines. How often to trains run to these times, and is it possible
to get a copy of these? With a 10-15 minute wait at the extremeties,
even at 9AM, it would be nice to see when trains are due. Some lines
have a live ETA, but the central line doesn't. The WAP service at
http://wap.tfl.gov.uk/tfldepboard/ tends to break down whenever I try
and use it in anger :(

They don't advertise it but working timetables are obtainable under the
Freedom of Information Act. Just fill in the form at
https://www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/foi/contacts.asp

Peter Smyth

Central Line Timetable
 

On 13 Mar 2007 11:18:41 -0700, "Paul Weaver"
wrote:

On Monday morning, an entertaining driver on the central line informed
us that this was "the 09:18 from Woodford, calling all stations to
West Ruislip, due to Stratford at 09:xx, Liverpool street at 09:yy,
and Holborn at 09:zz"

While this is guessable (Epping to White City takes bang on an hour on
most trips), I am dimly ware that there are working timetables for
tube lines.

All lines have working timetables measured to the ½ minute for timing
purposes.

How often to trains run to these times, and is it possible
to get a copy of these?

It's certainly the case that trains should run to these times as closely
as possible. In the mornings the Vic Line certainly runs in the right
sequence and usually to time when I'm catching it. Obviously if there is
a delay or failure then it can all go up the spout.

We have printed copies for each line but they are private. Old ones
sometimes appear at transport fairs. We also have a fantastic *intra*net
timetable facility which allows you to select line, date / day, location
and direction and it will bring up the times, train numbers and
destination. Very neat and includes temporary timetable info for those
days when there is engineering work and planned service alterations.

With a 10-15 minute wait at the extremeties,
even at 9AM, it would be nice to see when trains are due. Some lines
have a live ETA, but the central line doesn't. The WAP service at
http://wap.tfl.gov.uk/tfldepboard/ tends to break down whenever I try
and use it in anger :(

I think the argument is that services are typically so frequent that you
don't need a timetable. I don't agree with that myself and feel that at
places like Epping the minutes past the hour that trains are due to
leave should be provided on posters / leaflets.

Journey Planner has some information for Epping but it's far from ideal
- look under the timetables part and make the appropriate selections.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Central Line Timetable
 

Peter Smyth wrote:
"Paul Weaver" wrote in message
ups.com...

While this is guessable (Epping to White City takes bang on an hour on
most trips), I am dimly ware that there are working timetables for
tube lines. How often to trains run to these times, and is it possible
to get a copy of these? With a 10-15 minute wait at the extremeties,
even at 9AM, it would be nice to see when trains are due.

They don't advertise it but working timetables are obtainable under the
Freedom of Information Act.

The TfL website has extracts of the public timetable, which the OP might
find more useful. Go to http://www.journeyplanner.org/im/SI-T.html to
find the interactive Tube map. Click on a station, then click on the
timetable for the line (and direction) that interests you. The summaries
give you the times of first and last trains, headways for various times
of day and off peak journey times to each station along the line.
--
Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
=================================

Central Line Timetable
 

In message . com, Paul
Weaver writes
On Monday morning, an entertaining driver on the central line informed
us that this was "the 09:18 from Woodford, calling all stations to
West Ruislip, due to Stratford at 09:xx, Liverpool street at 09:yy,
and Holborn at 09:zz"

While this is guessable (Epping to White City takes bang on an hour on
most trips), I am dimly ware that there are working timetables for
tube lines. How often to trains run to these times, and is it possible
to get a copy of these? With a 10-15 minute wait at the extremeties,
even at 9AM, it would be nice to see when trains are due. Some lines
have a live ETA, but the central line doesn't. The WAP service at
http://wap.tfl.gov.uk/tfldepboard/ tends to break down whenever I try
and use it in anger :(

When I worked down there, both Central and Northern were timetabled to
the half minute and on the Northern if you were more than seven minutes
late you were turned early to keep in sequence for the programme machine
on Kennington platform.
--
Clive.

Central Line Timetable
 

"Joyce Whitchurch" wrote in message
...
Peter Smyth wrote:
"Paul Weaver" wrote in message
ups.com...

While this is guessable (Epping to White City takes bang on an hour on
most trips), I am dimly ware that there are working timetables for
tube lines. How often to trains run to these times, and is it possible
to get a copy of these? With a 10-15 minute wait at the extremeties,
even at 9AM, it would be nice to see when trains are due.

They don't advertise it but working timetables are obtainable under the
Freedom of Information Act.

The TfL website has extracts of the public timetable, which the OP might
find more useful. Go to http://www.journeyplanner.org/im/SI-T.html to
find the interactive Tube map. Click on a station, then click on the
timetable for the line (and direction) that interests you. The summaries
give you the times of first and last trains, headways for various times of
day and off peak journey times to each station along the line.

Unfortunately those timetables have a major flaw as they don't give the
destination of each train. For example the timetable at Finchley Central
northbound shows all trains to High Barnet and Mill Hill East mixed together
with no indication of which is which.

Peter Smyth

Central Line Timetable
 

Peter Smyth wrote:

Unfortunately those timetables have a major flaw as they don't give the
destination of each train. For example the timetable at Finchley Central
northbound shows all trains to High Barnet and Mill Hill East mixed together
with no indication of which is which.

Good point. I can't help feeling that the timetables on that site used
to be much more informative. Were they ever actual timetables, akin to
the ones on National Rail? They would have been big files mind.
--
Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
=================================

Central Line Timetable
 

"Clive Coleman." wrote in message
...
In message . com, Paul
Weaver writes
On Monday morning, an entertaining driver on the central line informed
us that this was "the 09:18 from Woodford, calling all stations to
West Ruislip, due to Stratford at 09:xx, Liverpool street at 09:yy,
and Holborn at 09:zz"

While this is guessable (Epping to White City takes bang on an hour on
most trips), I am dimly ware that there are working timetables for
tube lines. How often to trains run to these times, and is it possible
to get a copy of these? With a 10-15 minute wait at the extremeties,
even at 9AM, it would be nice to see when trains are due. Some lines
have a live ETA, but the central line doesn't. The WAP service at
http://wap.tfl.gov.uk/tfldepboard/ tends to break down whenever I try
and use it in anger :(

When I worked down there, both Central and Northern were timetabled to the
half minute and on the Northern if you were more than seven minutes late
you were turned early to keep in sequence for the programme machine on
Kennington platform.
--
Clive.
Clive

The half minute timing accuracy was down to the programme (sequence)
machines stepping every half minute. The timetables on the machines ran in
half-minute time (from 0300 to 0300 the next day) with 0 at midday - half
minute time was the most you could do within the limits of a computer
integer (8 bit - +/-32767 IIRC).

The Central Line computer control ran internally to quarter minute timings,
but the Timetable software used in developing and printing of the published
timetables (and also the computer control timetables) could only cope with
half minute resolution.

Peter
--
Peter & Elizabeth Corser
Leighton Buzzard, UK



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Central Line Timetable
 

On 13 Mar, 22:29, "Peter Corser" wrote:
The half minute timing accuracy was down to the programme (sequence)
machines stepping every half minute. The timetables on the machines ran in
half-minute time (from 0300 to 0300 the next day) with 0 at midday - half
minute time was the most you could do within the limits of a computer
integer (8 bit - +/-32767 IIRC).

8 bit would give you +-127, 16 bit is needed for 32767

The Central Line computer control ran internally to quarter minute timings,
but the Timetable software used in developing and printing of the published
timetables (and also the computer control timetables) could only cope with
half minute resolution.

From noon until 3AM needs a signed integer capable of storing upto
1800 values for a half minute resolution, 3600 for quarter minute. 12
bits would do -2048 to +2047, capable of half minute, but not third or
quarter. 12 bits is 3, 4 bit words.

Nowadays of course 64bit time_t is the way to go, although I think
some libraries do 128 bit, which is a little extreme, although some
may say it doesn't go far enough. I think* a 256 bit time_t would be
capable of representing any measurable point in time, and then some.

*
seconds in creation (50 billion years): -- (86400*365.25*50000000000)
Measurable Units of time (plank time) in a second -- 1/(3.3 x 10^-44)
Measurable Units of time in creation (a*b)
~ 4.8 * 10^61
ln(4.8 * 10^61)/ln(2) == 205

Central Line Timetable
 

Paul Corfield wrote:

All lines have working timetables measured to the ½ minute for timing
purposes.


The Waterloo and City line timetable (and maybe others - I think the
Central line is one) measures to the nearest 1/4 of a second. Things
like platform numbers and paths for empty stock are also all in there.

Cheers

Steve M

Central Line Timetable
 

The Waterloo and City line timetable (and maybe others - I think the
Central line is one) measures to the nearest 1/4 of a second. Things
like platform numbers and paths for empty stock are also all in there.

Did you mean 1/4 of a *minute* ? :-O

Central Line Timetable
 

alex_t wrote:
The Waterloo and City line timetable (and maybe others - I think the
Central line is one) measures to the nearest 1/4 of a second. Things
like platform numbers and paths for empty stock are also all in there.

Did you mean 1/4 of a *minute* ? :-O


Of course not, I meant second.

Ahem...

:)

Central Line Timetable
 

Peter Corser wrote:

The half minute timing accuracy was down to the programme (sequence)
machines stepping every half minute. The timetables on the machines ran in
half-minute time (from 0300 to 0300 the next day) with 0 at midday - half
minute time was the most you could do within the limits of a computer
integer (8 bit - +/-32767 IIRC).

A good job they didn't have computers back in the 1920s then - the
Central London Railway used to run its off-peak trains at intervals of
one and seven-eighths of a minute. (Or 32 trains an hour.)
--
Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
=================================

Central Line Timetable
 

Well, good luck to the Central line then - I'm pretty sure that trains
will miss 99,9% of all scheduled times by at least 1 second :-)

Central Line Timetable
 

In message , Peter Corser
writes

The half minute timing accuracy was down to the programme (sequence)
machines stepping every half minute. The timetables on the machines ran in
half-minute time (from 0300 to 0300 the next day) with 0 at midday - half
minute time was the most you could do within the limits of a computer
integer (8 bit - +/-32767 IIRC).

The Central Line computer control ran internally to quarter minute timings,
but the Timetable software used in developing and printing of the published
timetables (and also the computer control timetables) could only cope with
half minute resolution.
Thank you I've saved that.
--
Clive.

Central Line Timetable
 

"Paul Weaver" wrote in message
roups.com...
On 13 Mar, 22:29, "Peter Corser" wrote:
The half minute timing accuracy was down to the programme (sequence)
machines stepping every half minute. The timetables on the machines ran
in
half-minute time (from 0300 to 0300 the next day) with 0 at midday - half
minute time was the most you could do within the limits of a computer
integer (8 bit - +/-32767 IIRC).

8 bit would give you +-127, 16 bit is needed for 32767

The Central Line computer control ran internally to quarter minute
timings,
but the Timetable software used in developing and printing of the
published
timetables (and also the computer control timetables) could only cope
with
half minute resolution.

From noon until 3AM needs a signed integer capable of storing upto
1800 values for a half minute resolution, 3600 for quarter minute. 12
bits would do -2048 to +2047, capable of half minute, but not third or
quarter. 12 bits is 3, 4 bit words.

Nowadays of course 64bit time_t is the way to go, although I think
some libraries do 128 bit, which is a little extreme, although some
may say it doesn't go far enough. I think* a 256 bit time_t would be
capable of representing any measurable point in time, and then some.

*
seconds in creation (50 billion years): -- (86400*365.25*50000000000)
Measurable Units of time (plank time) in a second -- 1/(3.3 x 10^-44)
Measurable Units of time in creation (a*b)
~ 4.8 * 10^61
ln(4.8 * 10^61)/ln(2) == 205

Paul

Thanx for corrections - my memory was slightly befuddled & confused! It's a
long time since I did programme machine design for the original Heathrow
extension!

Programme machines (correctly known as sequence machines in most cases)
stepped in 30 second granularity. The whole system ran in two second time.
It is the two second time which requires the 16-bit width.

Bearing in mind that this system was designed in a railway signalling
pre-computer age using some relays and an individually designed set of
controls accomplished with electronic cards reducing the bit width was
always a necessity. The sequence machines ran on the plastic pianola roll
with mechanical fingers principle.

As an aside you may be aware that the train running numbers (set numbers)
shown in the time table were the direct digital equivalent of a hex number -
477 digital was stored as 477 hex and 477 was the highest number normally
used (there was also nothing between x78 and x99) which also saved bits (ot
sequence machine fingers).

Peter
--
Peter & Elizabeth Corser
Leighton Buzzard, UK



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Central Line Timetable
 

On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:41:39 -0000, Peter Corser wrote:

As an aside you may be aware that the train running numbers (set numbers)
shown in the time table were the direct digital equivalent of a hex number -
477 digital was stored as 477 hex and 477 was the highest number normally
used (there was also nothing between x78 and x99) which also saved bits (ot
sequence machine fingers).

ITYM octal rather than hex...

Central Line Timetable
 

On 13 Mar, 19:01, Paul Corfield wrote:
On 13 Mar 2007 11:18:41 -0700, "Paul Weaver"
wrote:

(snip)

With a 10-15 minute wait at the extremeties,
even at 9AM, it would be nice to see when trains are due. Some lines
have a live ETA, but the central line doesn't. The WAP service at
http://wap.tfl.gov.uk/tfldepboard/tends to break down whenever I try
and use it in anger :(

I think the argument is that services are typically so frequent that you
don't need a timetable. I don't agree with that myself and feel that at
places like Epping the minutes past the hour that trains are due to
leave should be provided on posters / leaflets.

(snip)


In the past I've picked up leaflets containing timetables for the
Metropolitan line, though I can't remember what stretches of the Met
they have covered - I suspect it was just the extremities, though they
also helpfully contained a line diagram that showed the pattern of
stopping, semi-fast and fast trains - something I can't find on the
TfL website.

Journeyplanner will display the exact timetable for Amersham, whilst
for Harrow-on-the-Hill it shows the exact times for an hour of morning
peak time and also late night trains, and Watford only has a selection
of exact times shown.

Central Line Timetable
 

Mizter T wrote:

In the past I've picked up leaflets containing timetables for the
Metropolitan line, though I can't remember what stretches of the Met
they have covered - I suspect it was just the extremities, though they
also helpfully contained a line diagram that showed the pattern of
stopping, semi-fast and fast trains - something I can't find on the
TfL website.

I'm not sure about south of Baker Street, but I recall in the mid to late
1990s the Met used timetables on the boards not the "time between stations"
posters used for other lines. I think they also incorporated Chiltern.

Central Line Timetable
 

In article , Peter Corser
writes
As an aside you may be aware that the train running numbers (set numbers)
shown in the time table were the direct digital equivalent of a hex number -
477 digital was stored as 477 hex and 477 was the highest number normally
used (there was also nothing between x78 and x99) which also saved bits (ot
sequence machine fingers).

Actually, I think you'll find that numbers on programme machine
controlled lines only went up to 377 - there were 8 bits for train
number.

The PM data I've seen wasn't organised by 8-bit byte, but simply had a
number of bits for each field. I thought that there were 6 minute bits,
5 hour bits, and a half-minute bit, but I could be misremembering here.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Central Line Timetable
 

"Peter Corser" wrote in message
...
....
As an aside you may be aware that the train running numbers (set numbers)
shown in the time table were the direct digital equivalent of a hex
number - 477 digital was stored as 477 hex and 477 was the highest number
normally used (there was also nothing between x78 and x99) which also
saved bits (ot sequence machine fingers).

You may mean octal, not hex?
--
David Biddulph

Central Line Timetable
 

"David Biddulph" groups [at] biddulph.org.uk wrote in message
...
"Peter Corser" wrote in message
...
...
As an aside you may be aware that the train running numbers (set numbers)
shown in the time table were the direct digital equivalent of a hex
number - 477 digital was stored as 477 hex and 477 was the highest number
normally used (there was also nothing between x78 and x99) which also
saved bits (ot sequence machine fingers).

You may mean octal, not hex?
--
David Biddulph

David

Oh Dear - brain still not in gear! Yes.

Peter
--
Peter & Elizabeth Corser
Leighton Buzzard, UK



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Central Line Timetable
 

"Peter Corser" wrote in message
...

The half minute timing accuracy was down to the programme (sequence)
machines stepping every half minute. The timetables on the machines ran
in half-minute time (from 0300 to 0300 the next day) with 0 at midday -
half minute time was the most you could do within the limits of a computer
integer (8 bit - +/-32767 IIRC).

The Central Line computer control ran internally to quarter minute
timings, but the Timetable software used in developing and printing of the
published timetables (and also the computer control timetables) could only
cope with half minute resolution.

Peter
--
Peter & Elizabeth Corser
Leighton Buzzard, UK

Think of the problems 'extended hours' is causing on programe machine sites.
(ok it not huge but running a train pass 3am is not that simple)
Andy

Central Line Timetable
 

Joyce

Good point, but the time tables were still only half minute resolution even
though printed paper!.

The working timetables are prepared partly to attempt to run trains to a
specific timing (which allows crews to be rostered and train maintenance to
be planned), but also to inform the operator which trains had specific
priority over a junction. Timings were usually only given for sites with
signal cabins (later Interlocking Machine Rooms) where there was a specific
choice of route. This was usually at a station, but some "country"
junctions (e.g. Woodford Junction on the Central) also had timings. The
rest of the line would be worked by, in LUL terms, automatic signals
actuated purely by the passage of trains (some signal cabins were left with
their frames almost permanently in King Lever and unmanned). LUL practice
was to signal a station platform (and have a cabin if there was a junction)
using basically 2 aspect signals with repeaters as required. The layout was
somewhat different to main line practice with every signal having a
calculated (if nominal in real life) sighting point and overlap. At the
time of the 32 train service it is likely that the sighting points and
overlaps were calculated to the same "average performance" (nominal rush
hour traction voltage - it varies depending on the number of trains in
section and sub station settings and full load) curve which was a "perfect
driver" curve - full acceleration to max speed, maintain max speed and a
full, single brake application to rest in the platform.

The nominal signalled headway of the Central Line was always stated as 90
seconds which in normal LUL experience should allow running of a 2 minute
service taking into account service variations - normal driving rather than
perfect, traction voltage variations, station stops longer than the defined
value - usually 30 seconds allowed, but Bank & Liverpool Street "may" have
been 40 & 45 seconds). As long as the timetable stated that a train was due
it was telling the signalman to clear the signals - simply reduce the
interval between trains in the timetable to 90 seconds several times in an
hour at each point (not necessarily the same trains at every point) and you
have solved the problem. I suspect (without doing the sums) that 6 off 90
second intervals per hour would suffice. 32 tph was probably pushing it a
bit, in reality, if time was to be kept.

I was heavily involved (from the LUL end) in the resignalling of the Central
Line in the 1990s and, as part of deciding the strategy for the interim
signalling I did a survey of the headways on the whole of the Central Line
and found that a nominal 90 second did apply although most of the inner
areas were closer to 80 second and St Pauls and Liverpool Street were more
like 70 seconds with 30 second station stops. There were, however, several
section without station stops, which calculated to well in excess of 100
seconds (the max was 114 OTOMH) whic was probably due to permanent speed
restriction being imposed subsequent to th signalling and the latter not
being modified. We did the interim signalling with a max headway of 100
secs (although we usually achieved much less) through the "Central London"
area. The result amazed the Operating Department - running a full service
before we did the interim would usually result in late running of 30 to 45
mins at the end of the peak (they relied on cancellations to be anywehere
near time!), but our revisions allowed a full service to run pretty much to
time (and had most trains stopped in platforms if there was a problem), We
decided that this was probably due to our design holding trains in the
platform longer and then getting a clean, unchecked run to the next station
which prevented or reduced the cascading delays which could easily occur
with the earlier layout. I have since simulated it (on a non LUL simulator)
which tended to prove this.

The resignalled Central Line computers were set to receive timetable data in
15 second resolution (although the computer, themselves, ran on a much
faster set of clock cycles), but the timetables were still printed in half
minute resolution! The system worked in roughly the same way as the old
system with trains only being held to time at specific positions (e.g.
junctions) with the "automatic" signalling working on track occupancy in
between.

Peter
PS Clive Feather has a pretty good description of the CL resignalling on his
site.
--
Peter & Elizabeth Corser
Leighton Buzzard, UK
"Joyce Whitchurch" wrote in message
...
Peter Corser wrote:

The half minute timing accuracy was down to the programme (sequence)
machines stepping every half minute. The timetables on the machines ran
in half-minute time (from 0300 to 0300 the next day) with 0 at midday -
half minute time was the most you could do within the limits of a
computer integer (8 bit - +/-32767 IIRC).

A good job they didn't have computers back in the 1920s then - the Central
London Railway used to run its off-peak trains at intervals of one and
seven-eighths of a minute. (Or 32 trains an hour.)
--
Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
=================================



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Central Line Timetable
 

On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:11:01 -0000, Tim Roll-Pickering
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

In the past I've picked up leaflets containing timetables for the
Metropolitan line, though I can't remember what stretches of the Met
they have covered - I suspect it was just the extremities, though they
also helpfully contained a line diagram that showed the pattern of
stopping, semi-fast and fast trains - something I can't find on the
TfL website.

I'm not sure about south of Baker Street, but I recall in the mid to late
1990s the Met used timetables on the boards not the "time between
stations"
posters used for other lines. I think they also incorporated Chiltern.


I concur. I've seen leaflets specific to Met stations West of Rayner's
Lane, but only ever seen them available at the stations concerned. They
are quite detailed about train times and destinations served. I also
think, though, that the Met is probably an anomaly, combining the sparsest
and most varied service. I think.

--
Fig

Central Line Timetable
 

On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:11:01 -0000, Tim Roll-Pickering
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

In the past I've picked up leaflets containing timetables for the
Metropolitan line, though I can't remember what stretches of the Met
they have covered - I suspect it was just the extremities, though they
also helpfully contained a line diagram that showed the pattern of
stopping, semi-fast and fast trains - something I can't find on the
TfL website.

I'm not sure about south of Baker Street, but I recall in the mid to late
1990s the Met used timetables on the boards not the "time between
stations"
posters used for other lines. I think they also incorporated Chiltern.

I would also like to confirm that I have seen "proper" Met timetables at
Wembley Park post 2004/5 modernisation

--
Fig

Central Line Timetable
 

"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message
...
In article , Peter Corser
writes
As an aside you may be aware that the train running numbers (set numbers)
shown in the time table were the direct digital equivalent of a hex
number -
477 digital was stored as 477 hex and 477 was the highest number normally
used (there was also nothing between x78 and x99) which also saved bits
(ot
sequence machine fingers).

Actually, I think you'll find that numbers on programme machine controlled
lines only went up to 377 - there were 8 bits for train number.

The PM data I've seen wasn't organised by 8-bit byte, but simply had a
number of bits for each field. I thought that there were 6 minute bits, 5
hour bits, and a half-minute bit, but I could be misremembering here.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
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Clive

You are right on the 4xx series numbers - some lines did have them for empty
trains, etc. but not on PM controlled lines.

The train numbers were octal (what's the correct term fo 2 bits giving
0-3?), but displayed as decimal using the same numerals, so 377 would be 8
bits overall.

It was 2 second time I was thinking about with the byte format. Your bit
numbering for the half minute time held on the machine seems familiar. I
think my brain is definitely getting addled - it's a long time since I
actuall did PM design (original Heathrow Extension), computer control system
with PM monitoring (Cobourg Street), LUL style computer control (Met,
Jubilee & Bakerloo) and Central Line. I think things have got a little
confused and blended with time!

Even when LUL had moved to computer control there was a tendency to to
define data structures using bit masks on the data - the GEC (later GPT)
4xxx series central control computers had their own data laid out like this.
I remember that the date information internally within the machine was based
on 0 in 1972 (I think Jan 1st) and included a year field which counted up -
this was a 6 bit field. We all thought that 5 bits would probably have been
enough!

Peter
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Peter & Elizabeth Corser
Leighton Buzzard, UK




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Central Line Timetable
 

In uk.transport.london message , Wed,
14 Mar 2007 23:12:08, Andy posted:

Think of the problems 'extended hours' is causing on programe machine sites.
(ok it not huge but running a train pass 3am is not that simple)

Have you a reference for the use of days ending at 03:00 ?

--
(c) John Stockton, Surrey, UK. Turnpike v6.05 IE 6.
Web URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/ - w. FAQish topics, links, acronyms
PAS EXE etc : URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/programs/ - see 00index.htm
Dates - miscdate.htm moredate.htm js-dates.htm pas-time.htm critdate.htm etc.

Central Line Timetable
 

"Dr J R Stockton" wrote in message
. invalid...
In uk.transport.london message , Wed,
14 Mar 2007 23:12:08, Andy posted:

Think of the problems 'extended hours' is causing on programe machine
sites.
(ok it not huge but running a train pass 3am is not that simple)

Have you a reference for the use of days ending at 03:00 ?

--
(c) John Stockton, Surrey, UK. Turnpike v6.05 IE
6.
Web URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/ - w. FAQish topics, links,
acronyms
PAS EXE etc : URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/programs/ - see
00index.htm
Dates - miscdate.htm moredate.htm js-dates.htm pas-time.htm critdate.htm
etc.

John

No - It was like that whilst I was working in LUL (actually did programme
machine design and circuits, had a go at converting programme machines to
site computers, but couldn't get my head round it, did centralised computer
control for Northern, Vic, Met Main, Jubilee and Bakerloo plus major
involvement in Central Line resignalling). The logic was that all scheduled
services should be in depot by then and none of the next days scheduled
services should have started.

I left LUL signalling design in 1995 (after 25 years) and have no real
knowledge how things have changed since, but suspect that major changes
would be unlikely until lines have been resignalled by current contractors
with their own systems.

Working days have to end at some point in time (think also about ticket
availability not ending at midnight), but where the sweet point is is a
matter for conjecture - some lines did have trains starting from depot not
much after 4 am. It was possible to run extra trains with programme
machines using the normal controls, but I doubt if many programme machine
sites are still in use - spares were becoming extremely difficult to source
(most of the electronic cards used in the circuitry were originall hand
wired using discrete components of an earlier era and the machines
themselves were a throwback to an even earlier period) and they were being
replaced by simple electronic interlockings when I left.

Peter
--
Peter & Elizabeth Corser
Leighton Buzzard, UK




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Central Line Timetable
 

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 11:21:57 -0000, Peter Corser wrote:

The train numbers were octal (what's the correct term fo 2 bits giving
0-3?),

Quaternary.

Central Line Timetable
 

Fig wrote:
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:11:01 -0000, Tim Roll-Pickering
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

In the past I've picked up leaflets containing timetables for the
Metropolitan line, though I can't remember what stretches of the Met
they have covered - I suspect it was just the extremities, though they
also helpfully contained a line diagram that showed the pattern of
stopping, semi-fast and fast trains - something I can't find on the
TfL website.

I'm not sure about south of Baker Street, but I recall in the mid to late
1990s the Met used timetables on the boards not the "time between
stations"
posters used for other lines. I think they also incorporated Chiltern.


I concur. I've seen leaflets specific to Met stations West of Rayner's
Lane, but only ever seen them available at the stations concerned. They
are quite detailed about train times and destinations served. I also
think, though, that the Met is probably an anomaly, combining the
sparsest and most varied service. I think.

Olympia gets a "proper" timetable given the rather odd frequency of
service (about every 17 minutes, except in the morning peak where there
are gaps of 34 minutes). It's shown prominently at Olympia, and at the
front of the westbound platform at Earl's Court. However, the online
version comes out rather oddly - it shows the full timetable *except*
for between 10pm and 11pm where it says "every 14-15 minutes"... I think
that's some issue with the software that auto-generates the timetables.


--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Central Line Timetable
 

On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 10:36:14 +0000, Dave A wrote:

However, the online
version comes out rather oddly - it shows the full timetable *except*
for between 10pm and 11pm where it says "every 14-15 minutes"... I think
that's some issue with the software that auto-generates the timetables.

Some issue?

rant mode

More like the thing is completely rubbish and simply finds the narrowest
and widest intervals and then uses that to state the service frequency.
It's appalling and given that the system has the underlying detail for
every line and every bus route I utterly fail to see what that cannot be
made available to those who need it while a more sensible and intuitive
approach is found for those who prefer "simpler" information.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Central Line Timetable
 

On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:11:01 -0000, Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

In the past I've picked up leaflets containing timetables for the
Metropolitan line, though I can't remember what stretches of the Met
they have covered - I suspect it was just the extremities, though they
also helpfully contained a line diagram that showed the pattern of
stopping, semi-fast and fast trains - something I can't find on the
TfL website.

I have a couple of these that I picked up a year or so ago. They are
dated "from 8 January until 10 June 2006". There's a leaflet for the
Uxbridge branch (which includes an almost-complete list of departure
times, both Met and Picc, for Uxbridge station) and a booklet for the
Amersham branch (which includes a full timetable for
Amersham/Chesham/Chiltern services, even showing the times for all
stations to Aldgate).

Central Line Timetable
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
oups.com...
On 13 Mar, 19:01, Paul Corfield wrote:
On 13 Mar 2007 11:18:41 -0700, "Paul Weaver"
wrote:

(snip)

With a 10-15 minute wait at the extremeties,
even at 9AM, it would be nice to see when trains are due. Some lines
have a live ETA, but the central line doesn't. The WAP service at
http://wap.tfl.gov.uk/tfldepboard/tends to break down whenever I try
and use it in anger :(

I think the argument is that services are typically so frequent that you
don't need a timetable. I don't agree with that myself and feel that at
places like Epping the minutes past the hour that trains are due to
leave should be provided on posters / leaflets.

(snip)


In the past I've picked up leaflets containing timetables for the
Metropolitan line, though I can't remember what stretches of the Met
they have covered - I suspect it was just the extremities, though they
also helpfully contained a line diagram that showed the pattern of
stopping, semi-fast and fast trains - something I can't find on the
TfL website.

Journeyplanner will display the exact timetable for Amersham, whilst
for Harrow-on-the-Hill it shows the exact times for an hour of morning
peak time and also late night trains, and Watford only has a selection
of exact times shown.

The full Amersham/Chesham timetable is on the LU website at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/travelinf...e=metropolitan

Peter Smyth

Central Line Timetable
 

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 10:36:14 +0000, Dave A wrote:

However, the online
version comes out rather oddly - it shows the full timetable *except*
for between 10pm and 11pm where it says "every 14-15 minutes"... I think
that's some issue with the software that auto-generates the timetables.

Some issue?

rant mode

More like the thing is completely rubbish and simply finds the narrowest
and widest intervals and then uses that to state the service frequency.
It's appalling and given that the system has the underlying detail for
every line and every bus route I utterly fail to see what that cannot be
made available to those who need it while a more sensible and intuitive
approach is found for those who prefer "simpler" information.

Hah! As long as it's not just me. I thought I was being picky. But I
think it's control freakery/madness when independent websites such as
http://www.busmap.org/ are no longer able to produce the timetables?

Unless I'm misunderstanding the message: "Important Message. London
Buses no longer produce timetables for the main bus network.
Unfortunately therefore I am unable to display a current timetable for
this route. Please contact London Buses for further information."

Luckily http://www.londonbusroutes.net/routes.htm still has the
information (though not as prettily displayed! [1]), just a shame no one
produces similar for the Underground. Thank goodness for enthusiasts!!


[1] but possible more accessible for visually impaired users.
--
Paul G
Typing from Barking

Central Line Timetable
 

On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 18:35:20 +0000, Paul G
wrote:

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 10:36:14 +0000, Dave A wrote:

However, the online
version comes out rather oddly - it shows the full timetable *except*
for between 10pm and 11pm where it says "every 14-15 minutes"... I think
that's some issue with the software that auto-generates the timetables.

Some issue?

rant mode

More like the thing is completely rubbish and simply finds the narrowest
and widest intervals and then uses that to state the service frequency.
It's appalling and given that the system has the underlying detail for
every line and every bus route I utterly fail to see what that cannot be
made available to those who need it while a more sensible and intuitive
approach is found for those who prefer "simpler" information.

Hah! As long as it's not just me. I thought I was being picky. But I
think it's control freakery/madness when independent websites such as
http://www.busmap.org/ are no longer able to produce the timetables?

I accept it is one of those issues that gets me cross so I'm not always
very rational on this subject.

Mike Harris who runs the busmap website works for TfL and was, AIUI,
close to the production process for the panel timetables. I agree it is
utterly bizarre that they are produced for things like coach services
but not for any TfL bus services. We used to be able to get the panel
timetables via a special part of the intranet - it's now virtually
redundant. For a while Mike used the Freedom of Information process to
get panels that were still being produced after timetable changes but
not formally published. TfL then stopped the production process which
shut off the FOI route. Having to go to those lengths to obtain
*passenger* information is frankly barking mad.

The stop specific stuff is woeful in its accuracy, relevance and layout.
My local stop information is just plain wrong - even when it shows
specific times such as early morning / evening. That is just
unacceptable.

I have no issue with the concept of stop specific info if it shows ALL
departures and other helpful information such as peak and off peak
running times with an explanation to show which running times apply to
what departures. Many European cities can do this without great
problems so why London can't I simply don't know. TfL will probably
argue that market research shows information needs to be "simple" - the
problem is that the info they now provide is beyond simple, it's of no
use. I have watched far too many people look at the info at my local
stop to see what time the bus will arrive and all they get is an
interval shown. I happen to have the detailed info from Mr Munster's
site in my bag and I go out typically to get a specific departure so my
waiting time is minimised. Doesn't always work if the service is shot to
pieces but most times I have little or no waiting time. If public
transport is to be attractive then I think detailed info should be
available to those who need it. After all if cars have GPS to talk the
driver to their exact destination then why on earth do bus users have to
rely on vacuous nonsense to be able to get about.

Unless I'm misunderstanding the message: "Important Message. London
Buses no longer produce timetables for the main bus network.
Unfortunately therefore I am unable to display a current timetable for
this route. Please contact London Buses for further information."

Luckily http://www.londonbusroutes.net/routes.htm still has the
information (though not as prettily displayed! [1]), just a shame no one
produces similar for the Underground. Thank goodness for enthusiasts!!

The pdfs that are set up to print off the back of the web displayed info
are not at all bad. I have them for my local route and have printed off
and handed out copies for people I know are regular users of the
service.

London Bus Routes is excellent but only really works because of the
connections that the owner of the site has by virtue of his job. Long
may his site continue as it's an unique resource.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Central Line Timetable
 

In article , Clive D. W. Feather
writes
Actually, I think you'll find that numbers on programme machine
controlled lines only went up to 377 - there were 8 bits for train
number.

The PM data I've seen wasn't organised by 8-bit byte, but simply had a
number of bits for each field. I thought that there were 6 minute bits,
5 hour bits, and a half-minute bit, but I could be misremembering here.

Reading through an IRSE booklet, it shows 8 bits for train number (hence
000 to 377). Some machines had a 5 bit "time to next event" field,
giving times from 0.5 to 15.5 minutes. Others had an 11 bit time field
(4 hour, 6 minute, plus half-minute). The timer device recorded time in
the form day (0 to 15), am/pm, hour (4 bits), minutes (6 bits), and
half-minute, with the last 11 bits being compared against the 11 bits on
the punched roll.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
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