Well I've now done three weeks on the North London Line and it's been an
experience. I did travel on it from Highbury and Islington to
Gunnersbury in the early 90, when it was affectionately known as the
hair lip and club foot line. But nothing really prepares you for it in
2007.

Firstly there is the stuff people take on it. I'm not talking about the
rucksack with all their worldly goods that people in their 20's seem
obliged by law to carry everywhere. We're talking truly weird stuff. The
sort of stuff that makes the guy who went round Ireland with a fridge
look like an amateur.

1. Two guys with the best part of a flat packed bedroom. They had four
boxes so big they had to tilt them to get them on. There is a kind of
frontier express spirit on the NLL, so people actually helped them get
it all on board.
2. A guy on his own with a large and very old 26 inch TV.
3. A guy with a bamboo summer house in bits.
4. Bikes of all shapes and sizes jammed into soft knees and shins.
Despite the frontier express spirit I do worry about the health and
safety aspect of so much rusty metal packed onto a crowded train. A
minor accident could lead to lots of broken bones.

It has to be said the people on the NLL could teach City Gents a thing
or two about manners and tolerance and all this is treated with a smile.

Then there is Highbury & Islington ! You can hear people on mobiles
telling friends, "We're at Highbury and Islington, there'll be trouble,
there always is." The train pulls in and the people on the platform are
so packed in that they can't make a gap for the people getting off. A
sort of scrum develops and people moan at each other. The frontier
express spirit would still mean nothing serious would happen, but the
staff at Highbury & Islington then play their trump card. They start
shouting at people through megaphones (honest) and of course that gets
things nicely heated up and trouble ensues. Eventually a lone police
woman comes down the stairs, uses a bit of common sense, stops the staff
shouting and order is restored.

If you think your line is congested, or your journey is bad. Travel on
the NLL for a few days. You'll meet some of the nicest people you could
hope to meet, who are subjected to intolerable conditions on a daily
basis.

So come on Ken, if you want a third term, give London some decent
transport. Filling the roads with busses isn't good enough.

--
Edward Cowling London UK

On 15 Mar, 19:14, Edward Cowling London UK
wrote:
Well I've now done three weeks on the North London Line and it's been an
experience. I did travel on it from Highbury and Islington to
Gunnersbury in the early 90, when it was affectionately known as the
hair lip and club foot line. But nothing really prepares you for it in
2007.

Firstly there is the stuff people take on it. I'm not talking about the
rucksack with all their worldly goods that people in their 20's seem
obliged by law to carry everywhere. We're talking truly weird stuff. The
sort of stuff that makes the guy who went round Ireland with a fridge
look like an amateur.

1. Two guys with the best part of a flat packed bedroom. They had four
boxes so big they had to tilt them to get them on. There is a kind of
frontier express spirit on the NLL, so people actually helped them get
it all on board.
2. A guy on his own with a large and very old 26 inch TV.
3. A guy with a bamboo summer house in bits.
4. Bikes of all shapes and sizes jammed into soft knees and shins.
Despite the frontier express spirit I do worry about the health and
safety aspect of so much rusty metal packed onto a crowded train. A
minor accident could lead to lots of broken bones.

It has to be said the people on the NLL could teach City Gents a thing
or two about manners and tolerance and all this is treated with a smile.

Then there is Highbury & Islington ! You can hear people on mobiles
telling friends, "We're at Highbury and Islington, there'll be trouble,
there always is." The train pulls in and the people on the platform are
so packed in that they can't make a gap for the people getting off. A
sort of scrum develops and people moan at each other. The frontier
express spirit would still mean nothing serious would happen, but the
staff at Highbury & Islington then play their trump card. They start
shouting at people through megaphones (honest) and of course that gets
things nicely heated up and trouble ensues. Eventually a lone police
woman comes down the stairs, uses a bit of common sense, stops the staff
shouting and order is restored.

If you think your line is congested, or your journey is bad. Travel on
the NLL for a few days. You'll meet some of the nicest people you could
hope to meet, who are subjected to intolerable conditions on a daily
basis.

So come on Ken, if you want a third term, give London some decent
transport. Filling the roads with busses isn't good enough.

--
Edward Cowling London UK


A splendid little snippet there of life on the NLL, where gong from A
to B is always a journey!

Off-peak the NLL is busy, but from my experience at peak times it is
perhaps a little harder to take it all lightly - that said, it can get
so packed laughing at the absurdity is perhaps the best remedy. I've
several friends on the line who would use it for their daily commutes
but for the fact it is so packed, so they find other ways to get to
work and back.

I've personally no objection to people using the NLL to lug stuff
around, off-peak - after all they're letting the train take the strain
whereas otherwise they might be another car owner or car driver
clogging the roads up. Let the frontier spirit continue!

I've seen your comments regarding buses before and I do quite disagree
with you, but I don't want to get this thread sidetracked (I'll leave
it for another time). But two quick points on that...

(1) the buses are probably already carrying a number of passengers on
journeys that could be done on the NLL, thus relieving a bit of the
strain on the route

(2) railways are so much more expensive than buses - diverting funding
away from the buses would only make a minor impact

TfL is to take control of the NLL (and other lines) in November - new
trains are on order for delivery in 2009, though they are only three
car too but should hopefully use the space a bit better. Upgrading
some of the stations to take longer trains is however a big job and
one that will need funds from central government - TfL could not do it
off it's own back.

I absolutely agree that it looks like it needs to be done, but I think
TfL will want to get their feet under the table first before they
start making demands for more money from the government - I'm sure
this explains the silence on this issue from TfL so far. Be certain
though that the bods at TfL Rail - and indeed the Mayor - are aware of
the state of the NLL, and are laying out their plans as we speak.

In message om, Mizter
T writes


I've personally no objection to people using the NLL to lug stuff
around, off-peak - after all they're letting the train take the strain
whereas otherwise they might be another car owner or car driver
clogging the roads up. Let the frontier spirit continue!

I don't travel on it off peak, all my experiences are between
8 and 9 in the morning and 5.30 to 7(ish) of an evening. The
guys with the flat packs were on already crowded trains. Plus despite it
being Eco friendly the mix of flesh and push bikes is an accident
waiting to happen.

(1) the buses are probably already carrying a number of passengers on
journeys that could be done on the NLL, thus relieving a bit of the
strain on the route

The problem is that despite raising the congestion charge and enlarging
the area, all most of us can see from Ken in the way of transport
improvement is buses.... buses the numbers of which even God hasn't seen
before :-) Then Ken made it 2 quid to get on them !


I absolutely agree that it looks like it needs to be done, but I think
TfL will want to get their feet under the table first before they
start making demands for more money from the government - I'm sure
this explains the silence on this issue from TfL so far. Be certain
though that the bods at TfL Rail - and indeed the Mayor - are aware of
the state of the NLL, and are laying out their plans as we speak.

Will the public be that patient and understanding ? Or will it be an
acolyte of Mr Cameron trying to sort the mess out ?

--
Edward Cowling London UK

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
In message om,
Mizter T writes


I've personally no objection to people using the NLL to lug stuff
around, off-peak - after all they're letting the train take the
strain whereas otherwise they might be another car owner or car
driver clogging the roads up. Let the frontier spirit continue!

I don't travel on it off peak, all my experiences are between
8 and 9 in the morning and 5.30 to 7(ish) of an evening. The
guys with the flat packs were on already crowded trains. Plus
despite it being Eco friendly the mix of flesh and push bikes is an
accident waiting to happen.

(1) the buses are probably already carrying a number of passengers
on journeys that could be done on the NLL, thus relieving a bit of
the strain on the route

The problem is that despite raising the congestion charge and
enlarging the area, all most of us can see from Ken in the way of
transport improvement is buses.... buses the numbers of which even
God hasn't seen before :-) Then Ken made it 2 quid to get on them
!

Don't be silly; it's £1 with Oyster.

I absolutely agree that it looks like it needs to be done, but I
think TfL will want to get their feet under the table first before
they start making demands for more money from the government - I'm
sure
this explains the silence on this issue from TfL so far. Be certain
though that the bods at TfL Rail - and indeed the Mayor - are
aware of the state of the NLL, and are laying out their plans as
we speak.
Will the public be that patient and understanding ? Or will it be an
acolyte of Mr Cameron trying to sort the mess out ?

New trains ordered August 2006. Also see:
http://www.alwaystouchout.com/projec...ceImprovements

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent...t.asp?prID=886

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

In message , Richard J.
writes

The problem is that despite raising the congestion charge and
enlarging the area, all most of us can see from Ken in the way of
transport improvement is buses.... buses the numbers of which even
God hasn't seen before :-) Then Ken made it 2 quid to get on them
!

Don't be silly; it's £1 with Oyster.

I know it's away from the thread, but I really think Oyster isn't the
solution for many people who Ken should be helping. The out of work off
to the odd interview, granny on a special trip.... they just aren't
catered for, and of course it can hit tourists hard if they aren't
prepared for it.

Mind you aren't the Venezuelans taking pity on poor old third world
London and helping out with a few bob ? :-)

--
Edward Cowling London UK

On 15 Mar, 20:49, Edward Cowling London UK
wrote:
In message om,
Mizter T writes

I've personally no objection to people using the NLL to lug stuff
around, off-peak - after all they're letting the train take the strain
whereas otherwise they might be another car owner or car driver
clogging the roads up. Let the frontier spirit continue!

I don't travel on it off peak, all my experiences are between
8 and 9 in the morning and 5.30 to 7(ish) of an evening. The
guys with the flat packs were on already crowded trains. Plus despite it
being Eco friendly the mix of flesh and push bikes is an accident
waiting to happen.

Agreed - it would be better for people to avoid bringing loads of
stuff on at peak times, though I suppose that some people's busy lives
could make it difficult to avoid.

Bikes definitely shouldn't be allowed on at peak times - and I speak
not as a bicycle hater but as a keen cyclist - when it's busy the
space available should be for people! Bizarrely I note that Silverlink
don't appear to have any policy banning bikes on the NLL at peak times
[1], which is pretty silly.


(1) the buses are probably already carrying a number of passengers on
journeys that could be done on the NLL, thus relieving a bit of the
strain on the route

The problem is that despite raising the congestion charge and enlarging
the area, all most of us can see from Ken in the way of transport
improvement is buses.... buses the numbers of which even God hasn't seen
before :-) Then Ken made it 2 quid to get on them !

Please understand that the following comment isn't me trying to be
belligerent, it really isn't, but if someone is paying £2 for a bus
fare on more than a few occasions then they're being a bit of a mug.
£1 with Oyster, or £1 with a Bus Saver ticket (sold as a carnet of 6
for £6).

And they really have improved significantly - a significant
improvement that was much needed, and as the rising passenger numbers
suggest that it has been much appreciated.

Buses are of course only one part the transport mix - in a way they
are a quick win, improving rail services (both under and overground
ones) is a much harder ask. However so far I've been fairly impressed
with the Mayor's efforst on both these fronts, given the limitations
he has - the PPP was unwillingly foisted upon him, and the Mayor only
has limited powers with regards to overground rail - but he's pushed
hard to get involved anyway, and has funded improvements all over
London to stations and will be taking direct control of the NLL and
other passenger services come November.

Also bear in mind that the bulk of TfL's funding doesn't come from the
Congestion Charge, nor from the GLA's council tax levy, but from a
grant from central government.


I absolutely agree that it looks like it needs to be done, but I think
TfL will want to get their feet under the table first before they
start making demands for more money from the government - I'm sure
this explains the silence on this issue from TfL so far. Be certain
though that the bods at TfL Rail - and indeed the Mayor - are aware of
the state of the NLL, and are laying out their plans as we speak.

Will the public be that patient and understanding ? Or will it be an
acolyte of Mr Cameron trying to sort the mess out ?

Ha! Mr Cameron's Mayor Idol style selection process didn't appear to
be a great success did it. We shall see, though at present I find it
hard to see the winner of the next Mayoral election wearing a blue
rosette, though of course the voters might be up for a change from Ken
next time. Of course it's not unfeasible for a future successful
candidate to be an independent, or at least allied to neither of the
two parties - after all that's what happened the first time round! I'd
still put my money on Ken winning it again though - my half baked and
completely unoriginal theory is that his objectors make a lot of
noise, whilst his supporters are far quieter - his rebelliousness and
outsider status appeal to many Londoners.

The really interesting potential future development is what will
happen when the Mayor and the central government are of a different
political hue - for example a Cameron government and a Mayor Ken.
There's an awful lot of interplay between central government and the
Mayor/GLA, not least in terms of flows of money. However I'd say it
would be unlikely that a Cameron government would squeeze TfL's grant
significantly in anything like a similar manner to how Thatcher
squeezed the GLC.

Going back to your point as to whether the public will be
understanding - bear in mind that the Mayor has no real power over the
NLL at this point in time anyway. Direct control starts in November. I
imagine that improvements will be seen pretty quickly, and over time
the Mayor will make clear that he is fighting for a better deal for
NLL passengers by trying to get extra funding from the government for
major NLL improvements.

Of course in a sense this is in part a mess of Livingstone's own
making - but one he might even be proud of. In the 1980's the GLC,
under Ken, pushed for better utilisation of rail routes around Greater
London, at the time of course all under the control of British Rail.
One of the GLC's pet projects, to which they committed funding, was
the creation of the present day North London Line - of course it's not
a new railway, but the through orbital passenger service from
Stratford to Richmond was a new creation. This created the modern day
NLL, the very NLL that is now a victim of its own success.


-----
[1] Silverlink Cycle Policy
http://www.silverlink-trains.com/tem...ic.aspx?id=489

"Mizter T" wrote in message
ps.com...

TfL is to take control of the NLL (and other lines) in November - new
trains are on order for delivery in 2009, though they are only three
car too but should hopefully use the space a bit better. Upgrading
some of the stations to take longer trains is however a big job and
one that will need funds from central government - TfL could not do it
off it's own back.

I absolutely agree that it looks like it needs to be done, but I think
TfL will want to get their feet under the table first before they
start making demands for more money from the government - I'm sure
this explains the silence on this issue from TfL so far. Be certain
though that the bods at TfL Rail - and indeed the Mayor - are aware of
the state of the NLL, and are laying out their plans as we speak.


I feel there is a real risk that the shiny new trains will attract even more
new passengers than they have space for - its a pity the planned service
frequency increases can't be guaranteed to be delivered at the same time as
the trains...

Paul

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
Well I've now done three weeks on the North London Line and it's been an
experience. I did travel on it from Highbury and Islington to
Gunnersbury in the early 90, when it was affectionately known as the
hair lip and club foot line. But nothing really prepares you for it in
2007.

Firstly there is the stuff people take on it. I'm not talking about the
rucksack with all their worldly goods that people in their 20's seem
obliged by law to carry everywhere. We're talking truly weird stuff. The
sort of stuff that makes the guy who went round Ireland with a fridge
look like an amateur.

1. Two guys with the best part of a flat packed bedroom. They had four
boxes so big they had to tilt them to get them on. There is a kind of
frontier express spirit on the NLL, so people actually helped them get
it all on board.
2. A guy on his own with a large and very old 26 inch TV.
3. A guy with a bamboo summer house in bits.
4. Bikes of all shapes and sizes jammed into soft knees and shins.
Despite the frontier express spirit I do worry about the health and
safety aspect of so much rusty metal packed onto a crowded train. A
minor accident could lead to lots of broken bones.

It has to be said the people on the NLL could teach City Gents a thing
or two about manners and tolerance and all this is treated with a smile.

Then there is Highbury & Islington ! You can hear people on mobiles
telling friends, "We're at Highbury and Islington, there'll be trouble,
there always is." The train pulls in and the people on the platform are
so packed in that they can't make a gap for the people getting off. A
sort of scrum develops and people moan at each other. The frontier
express spirit would still mean nothing serious would happen, but the
staff at Highbury & Islington then play their trump card. They start
shouting at people through megaphones (honest) and of course that gets
things nicely heated up and trouble ensues. Eventually a lone police
woman comes down the stairs, uses a bit of common sense, stops the staff
shouting and order is restored.

If you think your line is congested, or your journey is bad. Travel on
the NLL for a few days. You'll meet some of the nicest people you could
hope to meet, who are subjected to intolerable conditions on a daily basis.

I was reliably informed today that trains arriving at Highbury &
Islington on the NLL are (officially) the most crowded in London. I'm
sure that's no surprise to you (but it usually is to everyone else who
thinks their trains are the most packed in London, and can't understand
how trains on a line that doesn't even go *into* central London can be
more crowded)!!

So come on Ken, if you want a third term, give London some decent
transport. Filling the roads with busses isn't good enough.

There are significant improvements planned for the North London Line, I
can assure you. The only problem is the time it takes to implement the
plans.

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
In message ,
Richard J. writes

The problem is that despite raising the congestion charge and
enlarging the area, all most of us can see from Ken in the way of
transport improvement is buses.... buses the numbers of which even
God hasn't seen before :-) Then Ken made it 2 quid to get on
them !

Don't be silly; it's £1 with Oyster.

I know it's away from the thread, but I really think Oyster isn't
the solution for many people who Ken should be helping. The out of
work off to the odd interview,

Ah, yes, the mythical scenario where the unemployed person goes to only
one interview and never makes any other journeys by bus. I don't believe
it.

granny on a special trip

Between 04:30 and 09:00? (It's free with her Freedom Pass at other
times!)

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:

2. A guy on his own with a large and very old 26 inch TV.

Loot Rail!