"John Rowland" typed


wrote:

Here is the detail of the formal complaint I have lodged at the
Disability Rights Commission about Mr. Edwards: may I suggest others
who see the idiocy of his comments do likewise?

Don't bother. I contacted the DRC about a policy change which was not
widely
known but would have a negative impact on the mobility of wheelchair
users... I was told that since I was not disabled myself, they had no
interest in anything I had to say!


What a load of RUBBISH!

Able-bodied people have plenty of valid comments to make if they act as
wheelchair-pushers, companions, drivers or rail staff with/of disabled
people. This speaks of chipped-shoulder discrimination which makes me
HATE some radical disabled groups.

Not all disabilities are equal, not all disabled people are equal, not
all are wheelchair users. For some people with disabilities, a
Routemaster is wonderful as there is a good chance that a seat will be
available and there's a conductor to help. Finding a seat on a
buggy-cluttered low-floor bus isn't always easy...

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

"The Commission's policy in relation to Routemaster buses on Heritage
routes derives from recent changes made to disability discrimination
law. These changes require TfL to ensure that all its buses are fully
accessible by 2017. During the interview Mr Edwards did no more than
express disappointment that the very significant progress which TfL
had already made in replacing inaccessible buses (well ahead of the
statutory timetable) had not gone a bit further. Furthermore, he
correctly stated the legal position: if TfL continue to run
Routemasters beyond 2017 then any disabled person who is not able to
access a bus of that sort will have a cause of action in the county
court. I cannot see how Mr Edwards can be criticized for stating in
plain terms what the law is and what the consequences might be if TfL
ignore it. But I reiterate: the Commission is emphatically not saying
that all Routemasters must be withdrawn immediately. There is no legal
basis for such a policy position. The really serious point in all
this is that TfL have invested a very substantial amount of capital
expenditure to make travelling for disabled people so much easier. We
applaud that because of the transforming effect it has had and will
continue to have on disabled people's lives. We may have a slight
quibble with TfL about the remaining Routemasters but this does not
disguise the fact that we are delighted with the huge progress already
made which surpasses anything being done in the transport field in any
other part of the country."

Are these Routemasters actually going to be made 'illegal' - given the
fact there is an accessible alternative? What if they make sure a RM and
a 'Modern' bus run together in tandem?

If/when these heritage routes are withdrawn, people will surely be at a
disadvantage, - TfL aren't going to replace what were the RM diagrams
with modern bus ones.
--
The presence of this signature shows that this message has been scanned
for misplaced apostrophes by the common sense scanner. However, some
apostrophes may not be included where required due to boredom, gross
negligence, budget cuts, incompetence, stupidity or just plain laziness.
http://www.railwaysonline.co.uk

In message , Helen Deborah
Vecht writes
"John Rowland" typed


wrote:

Here is the detail of the formal complaint I have lodged at the
Disability Rights Commission about Mr. Edwards: may I suggest others
who see the idiocy of his comments do likewise?

Don't bother. I contacted the DRC about a policy change which was not
widely
known but would have a negative impact on the mobility of wheelchair
users... I was told that since I was not disabled myself, they had no
interest in anything I had to say!


What a load of RUBBISH!

I was given a really quite brusque brush-off when I contacted them a
year or so ago for clarification about someone who was blind and who
came on some of my walking tours. He refused a helper (who would have
been accommodated free of charge) and I didn't want him to undertake a
particular walk because it involved going via a canal lock gate. Their
initial reply was that I should re-route the walk but - as it was a
canal walk - this really removed the principal or intrinsic interest of
the tour.

When I pressed the point for advice about how to deal with this or what
my rights v responsibilities were, they took the same line outlined
above by John Rowland. When pressed further, they said that it would
be up to a court to decide what the law meant. In interpreted this as
I needed to get myself charged with a possible offence to see whether or
not I would be breaking the law. Given that I was seeking advice, I
was disappointed and c0oncerned about the whole matter and I confess
it's coloured my view of the subject considerably.

Able-bodied people have plenty of valid comments to make if they act as
wheelchair-pushers, companions, drivers or rail staff with/of disabled
people.
And in my case, someone who is pretty much able-bodied trying to do the
right thing, by ensuring that no-one was put in danger or at risk.

This speaks of chipped-shoulder discrimination which makes me
HATE some radical disabled groups.

Not all disabilities are equal, not all disabled people are equal, not
all are wheelchair users.
And thereby hangs the crux of this matter. "Disability" tends always
to conjure up images of people in wheelchair when it can cover so many
other things. A person with hearing or sight problems is better served
by a bus with a conductor, for example. There is no "one size fits
all" solution and attempts to find one will fail.

For some people with disabilities, a
Routemaster is wonderful as there is a good chance that a seat will be
available and there's a conductor to help.
In the latter days of RM operation, I found such help from conductors
sadly lacking. However, the conductors on the Heritage Routes seem to
take this part of their duties very seriously.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

In message .com,
" writes
Here is the reply received from the D.R.C. today, and my reply to it:-

"Dear Mr Maitland,



"Thank you for your email. The remarks attributed to Mr Edwards have
been taken out of context.
Which, to be fair, reported remarks often are. However.......

The DRC is not calling for the removal of
all existing Routemasters.
Do they mean now, in 2017 or ever, I wonder?

We are not killjoys or destroyers of
London's heritage.

"His main point, which has gone unreported, is that if we are serious
about promoting the inclusion of disabled people into all areas of
life (employment, social activities etc), then a prerequisite for that
is an accessible public transport system.
I think we'd all agree with that.

"Many disabled people have reported to us that the new fleet of London
buses has had a transforming effect on their lives, enabling them to
get out and about in a way that was impossible on the Routemaster
fleet.
If they are wheelchair users, yes. Possibly not for other
disabilities. Again, "however".......
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

In message .com,
" writes
Clearly, they are having their feathers ruffled, because within
minutes of my reply above, I have just received the following:-

"Dear Mr Maitland

"The Commission's policy in relation to Routemaster buses on Heritage
routes derives from recent changes made to disability discrimination
law. These changes require TfL to ensure that all its buses are fully
accessible by 2017. During the interview Mr Edwards did no more than
express disappointment that the very significant progress which TfL
had already made in replacing inaccessible buses (well ahead of the
statutory timetable) had not gone a bit further. Furthermore, he
correctly stated the legal position: if TfL continue to run
Routemasters beyond 2017 then any disabled person who is not able to
access a bus of that sort will have a cause of action in the county
court.
I wonder if they actually understand the basic issue, that the
Routemasters run as "extras" on routes already totally covered by
accessible buses? I reckon they think that the Heritage rotes somehow
don't come with an alternative.

I cannot see how Mr Edwards can be criticized for stating in
plain terms what the law is and what the consequences might be if TfL
ignore it. But I reiterate: the Commission is emphatically not saying
that all Routemasters must be withdrawn immediately. There is no legal
basis for such a policy position.
And in 2017?

This speaks of if everyone can't have something, then no-one can.

The really serious point in all
this is that TfL have invested a very substantial amount of capital
expenditure to make travelling for disabled people so much easier. We
applaud that because of the transforming effect it has had and will
continue to have on disabled people's lives. We may have a slight
quibble with TfL about the remaining Routemasters
Well, they aren't "remaining" Routemasters, really, are they? They are
an extra heritage service superimposed on top of an existing accessible
service.

I will formulate a reply and post a copy of it here, and it will be
along the lines of "Miss Patel states that you are not killjoys and do
not require the removal of Routemasters - which is clearly
contradictory to what you are now saying"! Three people all employed
by the D.R.C. saying different things!
I think they haven't really thought about this, don't you? :-)

Seriously, I do feel they've not grasped the "extra" nature of these
services.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

"Helen Deborah Vecht" wrote in message
...
"John Rowland" typed


wrote:

Here is the detail of the formal complaint I have lodged at the
Disability Rights Commission about Mr. Edwards: may I suggest others
who see the idiocy of his comments do likewise?

Don't bother. I contacted the DRC about a policy change which was not
widely
known but would have a negative impact on the mobility of wheelchair
users... I was told that since I was not disabled myself, they had no
interest in anything I had to say!


What a load of RUBBISH!

Able-bodied people have plenty of valid comments to make if they act as
wheelchair-pushers, companions, drivers or rail staff with/of disabled
people. This speaks of chipped-shoulder discrimination which makes me
HATE some radical disabled groups.

Not all disabilities are equal, not all disabled people are equal, not
all are wheelchair users. For some people with disabilities, a
Routemaster is wonderful as there is a good chance that a seat will be
available and there's a conductor to help. Finding a seat on a
buggy-cluttered low-floor bus isn't always easy...

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

We will be in London in October and will be definitely travelling on one of
the heritage routes.
It is a great tourist experience, and is essentially "London" from a
foreigners point of view.

cheers
Peter
Sydney

In message , peter
writes
We will be in London in October and will be definitely travelling on
one of the heritage routes.
I'm glad to hear it. The more people that use the heritage routes the
better. Pity they don't run on the 11, too, which is an even better
"sightseeing" route in my view.

It is a great tourist experience, and is essentially "London" from a
foreigners point of view.

They are like the cable cars of San Francisco or the trams of Blackpool,
Melbourne or Hong Kong.

Enjoy your visit.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 07:00:24 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote:


It is a great tourist experience, and is essentially "London" from a
foreigners point of view.

They are like the cable cars of San Francisco or the trams of Blackpool,
Melbourne or Hong Kong.

Enjoy your visit.

I don't really see all those as very much alike.

The London heritage routes are a deliberate (and possibly reluctant)
preservation of a few vehicles in service.

San Francisco cable cars are a complete system and a protected
national monument.

Blackpool trams are a 1-route survival helped to survive by having
some heritage value.

Melbourne trams have always been a major part of the city's transport
system - there are currently 450 of them operating on 24 routes.

I don't know about Hong Kong.

I suppose one thing that makes them all different from the London
Routemasters is that as a tourist you can't miss them.

On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 21:01:30 +0000, Eric wrote:

On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 07:00:24 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote:


It is a great tourist experience, and is essentially "London" from a
foreigners point of view.

They are like the cable cars of San Francisco or the trams of Blackpool,
Melbourne or Hong Kong.

Enjoy your visit.

I don't really see all those as very much alike.

The London heritage routes are a deliberate (and possibly reluctant)
preservation of a few vehicles in service.

San Francisco cable cars are a complete system and a protected
national monument.

Blackpool trams are a 1-route survival helped to survive by having
some heritage value.

Melbourne trams have always been a major part of the city's transport
system - there are currently 450 of them operating on 24 routes.

I don't know about Hong Kong.

I suppose one thing that makes them all different from the London
Routemasters is that as a tourist you can't miss them.

I suspect the point Ian is making is that the trams / cable cars are an
intrinsic part of the "experience" of the town or city they are in. They
are featured in guide books as "a thing you must do" and they feature
prominently on postcards or as souvenirs. Their precise status as
you've defined it hardly matters. In all cases they also form an
important part of the transport network - I've travelled on all of them
and even commuted on a San Francisco cable car and I wasn't the only
person doing it. A red London bus and particularly a Routemaster is
something that is in the guide book, tourists love to ride on them and
you fall over postcards and toy versions of them at every step. See how
money the LT Museum makes out of them!

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Wed, Mar 21, 2007 at 02:55:03PM +0000, Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

Not all disabilities are equal, not all disabled people are equal, not
all are wheelchair users. For some people with disabilities, a
Routemaster is wonderful as there is a good chance that a seat will be
available and there's a conductor to help. Finding a seat on a
buggy-cluttered low-floor bus isn't always easy...

Precisely. Travelling by bus with my mother was easier on Routemasters
than on the bendy buses that replaced them on the only routes we use
together. The reasons being that there were more seats, and that there
was a nice chap with a ticket machine, who was far easier for her to use
than the roadside vending machines that replaced him. It's kinda hard
to buy a ticket from a machine when you can't see it.

--
David Cantrell | Nth greatest programmer in the world

Good advice is always certain to be ignored,
but that's no reason not to give it -- Agatha Christie