keithy ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Of course TfL should abolish Guards on the NLL, who contribute nothing
to passenger safety and stay safely locked in their cabs whilst
travelling through the NLL's many areas of "bandit country". BUT they
should be replaced by permanent in-car roving security/revenue
presence and that's unlikely to happen. It's still not clear just how
gated/staffed some of the smaller NLL stations will be and, without
permanently-staffed gatelines at all stations the rabble are still
going to have unfettered access as at present.

Blad you want TFL to get rid of my job!!!! Does that mean you will be
able to look after me and my wife, pay our rent, pay for our holidays,
pay all our bills, pay for my Arsenal season ticket, For the next 22
that i can still work?

Umm, Keith, dear... I can understand why you have strong feelings on the
issue, but if the most persuasive argument you can find as to why Guards
should be retained is "to pay for your Arsenal season ticket", then please
go right now.

No, I didn't know that "Guards" still existed on London commuter trains,
either. If you think "every" ****ed-off passenger manages to find you, then
you have rose-tinted specs on when it comes to passenger morale.

On 20 Apr, 00:40, keithy wrote:
Of course TfL should abolish Guards on the NLL, who contribute nothing
to passenger safety and stay safely locked in their cabs whilst
travelling through the NLL's many areas of "bandit country". BUT they
should be replaced by permanent in-car roving security/revenue
presence and that's unlikely to happen. It's still not clear just how
gated/staffed some of the smaller NLL stations will be and, without
permanently-staffed gatelines at all stations the rabble are still
going to have unfettered access as at present.

Blad you want TFL to get rid of my job!!!! Does that mean you will be
able to look after me and my wife, pay our rent, pay for our holidays,
pay all our bills, pay for my Arsenal season ticket, For the next 22
that i can still work?

I understand you're annoyed that people want to see your job
abolished. But look at it this way - compare the service on LUL with
the service on Silverlink. The former has no guards, but is far less
threatening, safer (in terms of violence - both are equally safe in
terms of crashing), and better staffed than SS. The staff are better
paid for their grades, as well.

Nobody's suggesting you should be thrown out on the streets - rather,
that moving to a LUL model where senior experienced crew members are
put in charge of stations (including train despatch), rather than
sitting at the back of a train unable to help with passenger comfort
and safety except in emergency situations, is a better way round for
everybody.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On Apr 20, 7:57 am, Adrian wrote:
keithy ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Of course TfL should abolish Guards on the NLL, who contribute nothing
to passenger safety and stay safely locked in their cabs whilst
travelling through the NLL's many areas of "bandit country". BUT they
should be replaced by permanent in-car roving security/revenue
presence and that's unlikely to happen. It's still not clear just how
gated/staffed some of the smaller NLL stations will be and, without
permanently-staffed gatelines at all stations the rabble are still
going to have unfettered access as at present.
Blad you want TFL to get rid of my job!!!! Does that mean you will be
able to look after me and my wife, pay our rent, pay for our holidays,
pay all our bills, pay for my Arsenal season ticket, For the next 22
that i can still work?

Umm, Keith, dear... I can understand why you have strong feelings on the
issue, but if the most persuasive argument you can find as to why Guards
should be retained is "to pay for your Arsenal season ticket", then please
go right now.

No, I didn't know that "Guards" still existed on London commuter trains,
either. If you think "every" ****ed-off passenger manages to find you, then
you have rose-tinted specs on when it comes to passenger morale.


Actually i was being rather ironic in mentioning my Arsenal season
ticket, just thought id put a bit of humour on the topic.
What has passenger morale got to do with me wearing rose tinted
spectacles? For me to get to work i have to use the Sh*tty service
that is Silverlink to get to and from work. Yet you never see me take
out on members of staff when im delayed getting home. I accept the
service is crap. If you think that passenger morale is low, you should
try working for a company like Silverlink. I have been trying for the
past 5 years to get out and join a better company who have better
passengers, however alas despite the fact ive done 27 years on the
railway with a sickness record that is second to none i still cant get
out of this company. Things have got so bad ive even asked my wife for
jobs in her company which is Tescos!!!!!!!!.

In response to John B, You are quite right in that London Underground
has no Guards and is far less threatening, however unlike Silverlink
money comes direct from the Mayors office and is not given to
shareholders before they are first dwindled down to the passenger and
then the staff. The reason why London Underground is better staffed
than Silverlink is down to the fact that trains on the deep level
tubes cant run unless staff are availible. Where as on Silverlink they
couldnt give a toss if the station was open or not. Trains would still
run. Another reason why stations or not better staffed on Silverlink
is money. If you worked in a ticket office on London Underground you
will get a salary of around £24,500, yet you do the same job on
Silverlink and you get £12,600. I bet no one on here would work for
that amount of money, whilst living in surburbia.

From a passenger and member of staff point of view what is meant by
Passenger comfort? I am not sure what that entails for some it could
be the train running on time, for some it could mean getting a seat,
having refreshments, helping with enquires for some it could be all of
those and more. How would one do that on the 08.07 from Sratford
every morning?

It would be nice moving to the LUL model however that will never
happen on Silverlink, All that is happening is control of the service
is going from DfT to TfL so any staff who thinks they will get the
same salries as on the tube is badly mistaken, the same goes for the
passenger who thinks that the service and passenger comfort will
improve. The new trains planned have far fewer seats then the current
1970s 313s. So you will be standing more and for longer, and they will
still be only three coaches long. On the new trains you will have all
the information you need loud messages every few seconds and a dot
matrix screen letting you know where you are. So you are all quite
right i need not be a Guard on the railways anymore, but as for
holding a batton at stations like Dalston kingsland , Hackney Central,
Highbury and Islington, Brondesbury Kensal rise in fact all of them.
you are badly mistaken id rather be on the dole.



keithy

I *was* a Guard on LT/LU - from 78 until 80, then a Guard-Motorman
from 80 to 85 and then a Train Operator from 85 to 92 (unlike the then
BR this promotional process was possible). I contributed to the
belated campaign to save Guards on LU in the mid-80s Unfortunately the
unions - both of them - had effectively given up on the fight before
it had started (ditto the T&G in the last ten years of conductors on
London's buses) and could only see £££s for their driver members.
Personally I still think it sensible to have an extra pair of eyes and
ears at the rear end of a train. Vandalism on the District Line went
through the roof after Guards were abolished with rear cabs repeatedly
broken into - fire extinguishers let off, detonators stolen, cabs used
as toilets (more for devilment than need I suspect), windows etched,
interiors tagged etc etc etc. Could a Guard have prevented all of this
damage? Maybe not. But he/she would have detered a hell of a lot of
it. The NLL (and SLL) are the only two lines in London where I have
felt under threat even in daytime when travelling. Whoever takes over
the NLR franchise will abolish Guards whatever happens, my thought is
that when that occurs, the financial saving should be directed to an
in-carriage security/revenue presence as opposed to going straight
into the shareholders' pockets. I'm not suggesting that the same
people who were Guards be forcibly directed to this work - it must
take a very strong-willed person I suspect to take on some of the
NLL's "regulars" I imagine - but at least a job would be created in
London for every one lost. I've suspected for quite a while now that
the whole NL*R* operation (NLL,WLL,ELR, GobLin etc) is actually going
to turn out as "LUL-lite". Superficially looking like the Undergeround
in livery, station branding (to a degree), ticketing, but actually
being a poor imitation. Will we really see places like Cally Rd &
Barnsbury gated throughout traffic hours, and with a least two members
of staff at all times when open, which would be the case on LU-proper?
I really hope so, but remain to be convinced. As an aside I was amazed
at the Silverlink on-train presence when the last service train left
North Woolwich. Presumably in case a bunch of middle-aged anoraks (me
included!) were tempted to run amuk!

On 19 Apr 2007 16:40:31 -0700, keithy
wrote:

I am also glad that Neil Williams thinks its also a good idea for me
to out of a job, however not even he can be that naive that any money
saved will go into having a 10 minute train service.

You might note that the way I proposed to do that was to have some
guards train as drivers and others become RPIs in order to effectively
operate the increased service frequency. I don't think you'd see a
significant staffing drop, though you would see some changes of role.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On 18 Apr, 12:33, whos2091 wrote:
http://www.hackneygazette.co.uk/cont.../news/story.as...

Just saw this story which talks about TfL asking potential bidders for
the operation of the North London Line to consider the possibility of
removing guards from this line (ie running driver-only trains) -
apparently there are more than 100 of them.

Wonder if Br'er Crow has started squawking about this yet?

--
gordon

keithy ): "I have been trying for the
past 5 years to get out and join a better company who have better
passengers..."

That tells you everything you need to know about Silverlink staff's
opinion of its passengers. The line has more than its fair share of
dubious characters but I am hoping that gating the stations will
remove some of the worst (many of whom are obviously non-payers).

I'm sorry to hear that patrolling the trains through Dalston etc. to
try to keep them safe is not part of the responsibility of the train
operator (public or private). Supermarkets, pubs, private housing
estates seem to manage it OK.

That tells you everything you need to know about Silverlink staff's
opinion of its passengers. The line has more than its fair share of
dubious characters but I am hoping that gating the stations will
remove some of the worst (many of whom are obviously non-payers).

I'm sorry to hear that patrolling the trains through Dalston etc. to
try to keep them safe is not part of the responsibility of the train
operator (public or private). Supermarkets, pubs, private housing
estates seem to manage it OK.


I dont know, If your honest and dont bull**** you get shot down. If
you lie and tell bull**** you get shot down. Now what if i said all
the passengers are honest, they all pay their fare, they never abuse a
member of staff or another passenger, they never put their ****ty feet
on the seats, they are all polite, they will say thank you when youve
delayed the train for them, they dont use the pass comm in the middle
of stations just for a laugh and then NO ONE ELSE sees them do it when
you ask. No i thought you wouldnt belive that amount of rubbish. You
know that none of this goes on. Or does it? You tell me.

Actually it doesnt tell you everything you need to know about what
silverlinks staff actually think about its passengers. It is actually
MY OWN opinion, As i cant possibly coment on what other people think.
I mean some of the staff think that most of the passengers are
Angels!!!

I would like to know how i would patrol a train in the middle of the
peak period, as passengers of the line you know exactly what its like
so perhaps you can enlighten me on how thats done. It is also very
worrying that passengers are concernered about secruity at stations
like Dalston and a few others when the BTP and PCSOs are stationed
their. I would also be surprised if no one on here has seen the POLICE
on the trains and late at night which belive it or not is not when
most violence on trains takes place. If a Police officer on a train
isnt going to allivate peoples fears about travelling on trains, me
being a presence on one with no power of arrest isnt going to help
either.

To Gordon, What is meant when you say ' Wonder if Br'er Crow has
started squawking about this yet ?' What do you actually mean? Is
'Br'er Crow' a new specis of bird? i mean only Crows
squawrk..............Oh i get it its a joke.....such a shame i missed
it the first time round, perhaps you was trying to be clever and fool
me but alas i saw through it. In the end.

I think that what will happen though (or what you would want to see)
is that the RMT will say absolutley nothing and let the new company
(the favorite is GOVIA by the way) get rid of at least 100 Guards, Oh
yes this is the same company who want to make loads of station staff
surplus to requirments on South Eastern trains i wonder what secruity
the passengers have over their on there DOO trains? But no doubt that
is the unions fault, as it will be the unions fault when they get rid
of the Guards on the NLL. Then it will be what did the union do about
this? why didnt they stop it from going ahead? You see that you
wouldnt want the staff from taking industrial action to prevent it
either would you? So how does one without harming the service keep
staff in employment? perhaps someone out their can enlighten me.


Keithy