How about having the non-stop line go past the circle altogether? Like:

Actually that's just what I did last night. It does curve the Jubilee
more then I'd like, but I have to make some compromises...
Hopefully the updated map will be online tonight.


Yes. this requires a little geographical deviation, but your map is a map
of lines, which are conceptual entities defined by service patterns of
trains, not a map of tracks, which are those long, thin bits of metal.

True! (and I'll save that in my quotes archive ;-)

In article .com, MIG
writes
So it will go to: Euston - west of MC - Camden Town - ... -
Edgware?
This was the reason why, after the derailment on the crossover at
Camden Town, the service was simplified so that all Bank branch went
to the Edgware branch, and all Charing Cross branch went to the Barnet
branch.

No, the junctions can allow either branch to connect to either branch,
and at various times the restricted service has worked either way.

IIRC, after the derailment they picked the pairing that didn't use the
failed points.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
. li...
On Tue, 8 May 2007, John Rowland wrote:

Mr Thant wrote:

http://tinyurl.com/238mn2

Excellent!

Anyone else have a map of the tube et al they'd like to share? I propose
we collect them all together and have a MAP SHOWDOWN. Winner to receive
the Beck Cup and be crowned KING OF MAPS.

I vote for this one

http://www.colourcountry.net/colourc...aces/media.pdf

Peter Smyth

On May 9, 7:11 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 8 May 2007, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

In article .com, alex_t
writes

Well west.

So it will go to: Euston - west of MC - Camden Town - ... -
Edgware?

At Euston the two branches of the Northern Line are approximately at
right angles. The CX branch runs along Eversholt Street,

Whereabouts does it head over to Tottenham Court Road, if i may ask?


I think it must run under Drummond Street and then turn south at the
junction with Hampstead Road, although the old entrance is at the
corner of Euston Street, but I don't see how it can be that far south,
given how far under the main concourse the platforms are.



while the Bank branch takes a large loop, converging with the CX branch
just south of Camden Town. There are then the complex junctions, after
which the two branches follow along the two main roads northwards.

idle-speculation

I was wondering, as i was sat on it this morning, whether it would be
possible to construct a connector between the Bank and CX branches around
about Euston, so that they could act as two arms of a loop, with trains
running Kennington - Bank - Euston - Charing Cross - Kennington and vice
versa. Based on what you say, perhaps not.

If so, though, it could be a useful way of focusing trains on the
termini-to-town section of the line, which i assume is the most heavily
loaded, either for extra trains during the peaks (which wouldn't need to
negotiate the delay-inducing Camden Town chicanery) or off-peak (when
demand to the suburbs is less). I don't know where you'd put the
platforms, how much worse the extra set of junctions would make the line's
reliability, or how confusing it would be for passengers.


They are at quite different levels though.



Looking at tis map of Euston on John's site:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...9/lteuston.gif

... it seems that it might be plausible. For the clockwise route, drive a
tunnel from the northbound Charing Cross branch some way south of the
platform, drop down to the level between the two branches, run along under
the branch, then dive to join the southbound Bank branch just 'north' of
the platform, perhaps exploiting the old northbound alignment. For the
anticlockwise route, start your tunnel from the northbound Bank branch at
what remains of the northbound alignment, and is now a reversing siding,
to the 'south' of the platforms; climb over the southbound Bank platform,
turn north, and loop round to join the southbound Charing Cross branch
just north of its platform. Provided there's as much vertical separation
between the branches as i hope there is, and provided there's nothing
awkward underground to the north of the Bank branch platforms (er, Euston
station itself?), this would avoid some of the major complaints - all
trains to Bank and Charing Cross would go from the same platform (IYSWIM),
and there would be enough track in 'limbo' between the main routes of the
branches to hold a train or two, so helping avoid head-of-line blocking -
rendering this idea merely bad, rather than terrible.


Wouldn't that mean two separate platforms for trains to Charing Cross
though, depending on whether looping or coming from Camden?



/idle-speculation

Hmm. That map implies that the northbound City track passes *under* the
Victoria line, whereas this cut-away drawing:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...9/lteusmod.jpg

Shows it passing *over* it. Anyone know which is right?



Quail agrees that the Northern City goes over the Victoria.



tom

--
The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid
are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell

On May 9, 8:49 pm, "Clive D. W. Feather" c...@on-the-
train.demon.co.uk wrote:
In article .com, MIG
writes

So it will go to: Euston - west of MC - Camden Town - ... -
Edgware?
This was the reason why, after the derailment on the crossover at
Camden Town, the service was simplified so that all Bank branch went
to the Edgware branch, and all Charing Cross branch went to the Barnet
branch.

No, the junctions can allow either branch to connect to either branch,
and at various times the restricted service has worked either way.

IIRC, after the derailment they picked the pairing that didn't use the
failed points.



Looking at it now, I can't see where there's any set of points that
could be avoided by any option, although they could avoid changing the
points and treat them as plain rail in a fixed direction.

Hi Alex.
What an interesting map / thread-about-the-map this is.

It would be interesting to see a series of how your various repositionings
and re-workings have progressed, maybe.

Now, I don't know much about where the lines go and that sort of thing, but
I do know that Willesden Green station is actually due north of Kensal
Green station (I used to live around there, and wandered around a bit), and
they're actually pretty close to each other. This is pretty easy to see on
Google Maps (or, I imagine, an A-Z or similar ;-).

I'm not sure how you'd be able to cram all those Bakerloo Line stations in
next to the Metropolitan line if you moved everything back towards the
east, but I guess that would be for you to work out, and the rest of us to
nitpick over...

Keep up the good work!

--
Adam

In article , Tom
Anderson writes
At Euston the two branches of the Northern Line are approximately at
right angles.

This turns out to be wrong - see below.

The CX branch runs along Eversholt Street,
Whereabouts does it head over to Tottenham Court Road, if i may ask?

It runs under Drummond Street.

while the Bank branch takes a large loop, converging with the CX
branch just south of Camden Town.

It runs roughly in a straight line from the junction of Stanhope Street
and Granby Terrace northish to Camden Town.

I was wondering, as i was sat on it this morning, whether it would be
possible to construct a connector between the Bank and CX branches
around about Euston, so that they could act as two arms of a loop, with
trains running Kennington - Bank - Euston - Charing Cross - Kennington
and vice versa. Based on what you say, perhaps not.

Not really, since it would have to miss Euston.

If so, though, it could be a useful way of focusing trains on the
termini-to-town section of the line, which i assume is the most heavily
loaded,

I'm not totally convinced it's enough busier, though there's a fair
number get off at KXSP northbound in the evening peak.

either for extra trains during the peaks (which wouldn't need to
negotiate the delay-inducing Camden Town chicanery)

Why "delay-inducing"? The junctions are designed so that all possible
non-conflicting moves can be done simultaneously.

... it seems that it might be plausible.
[...]

I've now dug out more detailed material. The northbound CX branch under
Drummond Street is almost exactly in line with the southbound Bank
branch under Euston itself.

The Bank branch platforms are centered on Eversholt Street. The
southbound is under Doric Way and the northbound is 60m away, under the
southern edge of the main Euston station (almost mid-way between Doric
Way and Grafton Place). The CX platforms are at about 20 degrees to
them. Their western end is under Cardington Street and the eastern under
under Euston, about 100m north of the southern edge of the main
building. The southbound Bank crosses under these platforms about 40m
from their western end at about 30 degrees to them; the northbound
crosses about 20m west of that end at about 45 degrees. The two tunnels
converge under the intersection of Coburg Street and Star Street.

The CX branch runs under Drummond Street to North Gower Street, then in
a curve radius 170m to meet Hampstead Road at the northern edge of
Euston Road. [The Victoria Line crosses Coburg Street 20m north of
Euston Street and then runs in a straight line to the point where
Hampstead Road crosses the Euston Road underpass.

Running east, the Bank branch southbound is straight for 220m from the
platforms to Ossulston Street, then curves for 80m to a point under the
middle of the northern edge of the British Library; the northbound
leaves the Euston Loop at the same point, crossing under the Victoria at
Chalton Street, 40m south of the southbound. It then runs 90m east and
crosses Midland Road about 180m north of Euston Road; this is where the
King's Cross Loop comes off it. It's then 110m to the western end of the
KXSP platforms, which is 20m west of the east edge and 70m/50m north of
the southern edge of St.Pancras main building. The southbound platform
and track is in a straight line to run under Pentonville Road; the two
platforms end about 80m west of York Road, almost directly under the
northbound Piccadilly. The northbound platform is about 20m south of the
southbound; the two tunnels converge about 160m east of the station.

Hmm. That map implies that the northbound City track passes *under* the
Victoria line, whereas this cut-away drawing:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...9/lteusmod.jpg

Shows it passing *over* it. Anyone know which is right?

I'm sure it goes under - look at the escalators and work out what the
gradient would have to be for it to go over.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

On May 9, 11:16 pm, "Clive D. W. Feather" c...@on-the-
train.demon.co.uk wrote:
In article , Tom
Anderson writes

At Euston the two branches of the Northern Line are approximately at
right angles.

This turns out to be wrong - see below.

The CX branch runs along Eversholt Street,
Whereabouts does it head over to Tottenham Court Road, if i may ask?

It runs under Drummond Street.

while the Bank branch takes a large loop, converging with the CX
branch just south of Camden Town.

It runs roughly in a straight line from the junction of Stanhope Street
and Granby Terrace northish to Camden Town.

I was wondering, as i was sat on it this morning, whether it would be
possible to construct a connector between the Bank and CX branches
around about Euston, so that they could act as two arms of a loop, with
trains running Kennington - Bank - Euston - Charing Cross - Kennington
and vice versa. Based on what you say, perhaps not.

Not really, since it would have to miss Euston.

If so, though, it could be a useful way of focusing trains on the
termini-to-town section of the line, which i assume is the most heavily
loaded,

I'm not totally convinced it's enough busier, though there's a fair
number get off at KXSP northbound in the evening peak.

either for extra trains during the peaks (which wouldn't need to
negotiate the delay-inducing Camden Town chicanery)

Why "delay-inducing"? The junctions are designed so that all possible
non-conflicting moves can be done simultaneously.

... it seems that it might be plausible.

[...]

I've now dug out more detailed material. The northbound CX branch under
Drummond Street is almost exactly in line with the southbound Bank
branch under Euston itself.

The Bank branch platforms are centered on Eversholt Street. The
southbound is under Doric Way and the northbound is 60m away, under the
southern edge of the main Euston station (almost mid-way between Doric
Way and Grafton Place). The CX platforms are at about 20 degrees to
them. Their western end is under Cardington Street and the eastern under
under Euston, about 100m north of the southern edge of the main
building. The southbound Bank crosses under these platforms about 40m
from their western end at about 30 degrees to them; the northbound
crosses about 20m west of that end at about 45 degrees. The two tunnels
converge under the intersection of Coburg Street and Star Street.

The CX branch runs under Drummond Street to North Gower Street, then in
a curve radius 170m to meet Hampstead Road at the northern edge of
Euston Road. [The Victoria Line crosses Coburg Street 20m north of
Euston Street and then runs in a straight line to the point where
Hampstead Road crosses the Euston Road underpass.

Running east, the Bank branch southbound is straight for 220m from the
platforms to Ossulston Street, then curves for 80m to a point under the
middle of the northern edge of the British Library; the northbound
leaves the Euston Loop at the same point, crossing under the Victoria at
Chalton Street, 40m south of the southbound. It then runs 90m east and
crosses Midland Road about 180m north of Euston Road; this is where the
King's Cross Loop comes off it. It's then 110m to the western end of the
KXSP platforms, which is 20m west of the east edge and 70m/50m north of
the southern edge of St.Pancras main building. The southbound platform
and track is in a straight line to run under Pentonville Road; the two
platforms end about 80m west of York Road, almost directly under the
northbound Piccadilly. The northbound platform is about 20m south of the
southbound; the two tunnels converge about 160m east of the station.

Hmm. That map implies that the northbound City track passes *under* the
Victoria line, whereas this cut-away drawing:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...9/lteusmod.jpg

Shows it passing *over* it. Anyone know which is right?

I'm sure it goes under - look at the escalators and work out what the
gradient would have to be for it to go over.



I am not so sure about this last bit. Apart from the fact that Quail
shows the Northern City going over the Victoria, it also has to level
with the Charing Cross branch at Camden, whereas the Victoria has to
go under the Charing Cross branch. Maybe the Victoria also dives down
a bit to make it possible.

On Wed, 9 May 2007, Peter Smyth wrote:

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
. li...
On Tue, 8 May 2007, John Rowland wrote:

Mr Thant wrote:

http://tinyurl.com/238mn2

Excellent!

MAP SHOWDOWN

I vote for this one

http://www.colourcountry.net/colourc...aces/media.pdf

Oh, that is not right. That is really so very not right at all.

tom

--
ready to open a Wal-Mart that only sells ball-stomp

At Euston the two branches of the Northern Line are approximately at
right angles. The CX branch runs along Eversholt Street, while the Bank
branch takes a large loop, converging with the CX branch just south of
Camden Town. There are then the complex junctions, after which the two
branches follow along the two main roads northwards.

I reworked the area around Camden Town. Also moved Euston and
Mornington Crescent (did I win?).
http://www.fxfp.com/lib/tube/