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St Pancras Thameslink Platforms (Midland Rd)
Tom Anderson wrote:
Thus, my point that the frequency at the suburban stations is too low to be useful as a tube line stands, and moreover, Jon Morris's point, which you've helpfully snipped, that "the service frequency from King's Cross to Blackfriars makes it almost as good as any other tube line" is also shown to be an outrageous lie - 8 tph is barely a turn-up-and-go frequency, and not what i call tube frequency. Perhaps if you've been unlucky enough to grow up out in the western branches of the Magical District Line Tree, you might think so, but as someone who lives at Finsbury Park, i don't. Just as a point of comparison - several NYC subway routes run less frequently than 8 tph during rush hours. And midday timetables on many (most?) routes call for 6 tph. To be fair, what's considered a single route in NYC might in many cases be considered one branch of a line in London. -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
St Pancras Thameslink Platforms (Midland Rd)
On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 07:25:38 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote: Contrast with somewhere like Manchester Piccadilly where two of the platforms are in a completely different place - and the icing on the cake is that when you stand on the concourse the platform numbers go 1-10, 13-14 [1], 11-12; although I'm not claiming that 11-12 are a different set from 1-10. http://www.networkrail.co.uk/documen...Piccadilly.pdf [1] The distant ones. But looking at the platforms themselves, 13 & 14 are physically to the right of 11 & 12. It's just the access route that uses the old cartway between 10 & 11. And the lift access from Fairfield Street stops at Platform 12 before going up to the link bridge for 13 & 14 (the shortest way of getting there from the taxi rank or metrolink). I can just about remember the ticket office on Fairfield Street - now an emergency exit only - was this ever a separate station or was it always part of the former London Road? |
St Pancras Thameslink Platforms (Midland Rd)
In message , at 21:33:35 on
Tue, 12 Jun 2007, G remarked: On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 07:25:38 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: Contrast with somewhere like Manchester Piccadilly where two of the platforms are in a completely different place - and the icing on the cake is that when you stand on the concourse the platform numbers go 1-10, 13-14 [1], 11-12; although I'm not claiming that 11-12 are a different set from 1-10. http://www.networkrail.co.uk/documen...Piccadilly.pdf [1] The distant ones. But looking at the platforms themselves, 13 & 14 are physically to the right of 11 & 12. It's just the access route that uses the old cartway between 10 & 11. Yes, but it really looks odd when you look up at the signs ! And the lift access from Fairfield Street stops at Platform 12 before going up to the link bridge for 13 & 14 (the shortest way of getting there from the taxi rank or metrolink). I can just about remember the ticket office on Fairfield Street - now an emergency exit only - was this ever a separate station or was it always part of the former London Road? I visited recently, but that was the first time for over 25 years and I don't remember much about it from then. -- Roland Perry |
St Pancras Thameslink Platforms (Midland Rd)
On 12 Jun, 18:40, Tom Anderson wrote:
Jon Morris's point, which you've helpfully snipped, that "the service frequency from King's Cross to Blackfriars makes it almost as good as any other tube line" is also shown to be an outrageous lie - 8 tph is barely a turn-up-and-go frequency, and not what i call tube frequency. I think a train every 7.5 minutes - or twice that if you need go to stations that aren't covered by the fast trains) - is quite frequent and certainly a lot better than alternative ways of cutting through town in a straight line. You can certainly turn up and go most of the time, although colleagues at work do look at the timetable. Now, at Farringdon where I work, you should also use a timetable for the tube lines - but I bet few people do, even though there is obviously a set pattern for H&C, Circle and Met line trains. Rest assured, if you need one specific service you'll potentially wait just as long as for a TL train. Perhaps if you've been unlucky enough to grow up out in the western branches of the Magical District Line Tree, you might think so, but as someone who lives at Finsbury Park, i don't. ....As someone who used to use Finsbury Park every day (but now goes through it), I can agree that the Victoria line is certainly better - but many - or most - other lines (especially in the outer reaches - such as Oakwood and Cockfosters which were other stations I used a lot) are anything up to 10 minutes apart or more at certain times of the day. It's certainly not just the District Line which I've never understood properly. :) Remember, if you're after the Piccadilly Line from Finsbury Park in the off peak period and want to go to beyond the centre of town then you'll need to divide up the service frequency between trains going to different destinations. Lord knows how I used to manage getting to Oakwood when so many trains suddenly changed to be turned back at Arnos Grove with about one stations notice! Jonathan |
St Pancras Thameslink Platforms (Midland Rd)
On 12 Jun, 18:40, Tom Anderson wrote:
My apologies. I was thinking of the post-TLnK plan, where there should be 24 tph through the core, but only 6 tph suburban trains. Where'd you get that from? The various sample timetables floating around are pretty vague, but they all seem to imply minimal changes to the existing routes, with everything else added around them. "the service frequency from King's Cross to Blackfriars makes it almost as good as any other tube line" is also shown to be an outrageous lie - 8 tph is barely a turn-up-and-go frequency, and not what i call tube frequency. The Circle Line, the only other direct service, has a frequency of 7 tph. U |
St Pancras Thameslink Platforms (Midland Rd)
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St Pancras Thameslink Platforms (Midland Rd)
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St Pancras Thameslink Platforms (Midland Rd)
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St Pancras Thameslink Platforms (Midland Rd)
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St Pancras Thameslink Platforms (Midland Rd)
Mr Thant wrote:
On 12 Jun, 18:40, Tom Anderson wrote: "the service frequency from King's Cross to Blackfriars makes it almost as good as any other tube line" is also shown to be an outrageous lie - 8 tph is barely a turn-up-and-go frequency, and not what i call tube frequency. The Circle Line, the only other direct service, has a frequency of 7 tph. But it's a direct service in either direction, so that gives you 14 tph! -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
St Pancras Thameslink Platforms (Midland Rd)
On Jun 13, 2:59 am, David of Broadway
wrote: Mr Thant wrote: On 12 Jun, 18:40, Tom Anderson wrote: "the service frequency from King's Cross to Blackfriars makes it almost as good as any other tube line" is also shown to be an outrageous lie - 8 tph is barely a turn-up-and-go frequency, and not what i call tube frequency. The Circle Line, the only other direct service, has a frequency of 7 tph. But it's a direct service in either direction, so that gives you 14 tph! -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA I think the Circle Line is generally accepted to be a myth. The mystery to me is where all the trains go (I suppose not that many) every time the service stops running in one direction or other. Diverted to the H & C? |
St Pancras Thameslink Platforms (Midland Rd)
On Tue, 12 Jun 2007, David of Broadway wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote: Thus, my point that the frequency at the suburban stations is too low to be useful as a tube line stands, and moreover, Jon Morris's point, which you've helpfully snipped, that "the service frequency from King's Cross to Blackfriars makes it almost as good as any other tube line" is also shown to be an outrageous lie - 8 tph is barely a turn-up-and-go frequency, and not what i call tube frequency. Perhaps if you've been unlucky enough to grow up out in the western branches of the Magical District Line Tree, you might think so, but as someone who lives at Finsbury Park, i don't. Just as a point of comparison - several NYC subway routes run less frequently than 8 tph during rush hours. And midday timetables on many (most?) routes call for 6 tph. To be fair, what's considered a single route in NYC might in many cases be considered one branch of a line in London. Quite so. The New Yorkist idea of a 'line' is different to ours, in that it's wrong. ;) But presumably, that does mean that out in the suburbs, where the lines/branches go their separate ways, the frequency really is down to 6-8 tph. There are places where that's the case in London (or even less - there are some places with sub-4 tph off-peak service) too, although it's rare, and they really are at the fringes of the network. Jon's example of Oakwood is unfortunately one. tom -- We must perform a quirkafleeg |
St Pancras Thameslink Platforms (Midland Rd)
On Tue, 12 Jun 2007, Mr Thant wrote:
On 12 Jun, 18:40, Tom Anderson wrote: My apologies. I was thinking of the post-TLnK plan, where there should be 24 tph through the core, but only 6 tph suburban trains. Where'd you get that from? Reading between the lines at: http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/23 Not authoritative, of course. The various sample timetables floating around are pretty vague, but they all seem to imply minimal changes to the existing routes, with everything else added around them. Right - and all the added services are long-distance ones which are very unlikely to call at Kentish Town, and won't go anyhwere near Elephant. "the service frequency from King's Cross to Blackfriars makes it almost as good as any other tube line" is also shown to be an outrageous lie - 8 tph is barely a turn-up-and-go frequency, and not what i call tube frequency. The Circle Line, the only other direct service, has a frequency of 7 tph. If you actually want to go from KX to Blackfriars, then i would certainly agree that Thameslink is probably your best bet. However, if you want to go from somewhere-north-of-KX to somewhere-south-of-Blackfriars, it probably isn't part of your route of choice. tom -- We must perform a quirkafleeg |
St Pancras Thameslink Platforms (Midland Rd)
On Jun 13, 3:09 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
Reading between the lines at: http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/23 Which part are you looking at? The list under "service pattern" includes: # Bedford - London Bridge - Brighton (4tph) # Luton - Elephant & Castle - Sutton, Wimbledon (4tph) clockwise via Sutton then Wimbledon (2tph) anticlockwise via Wimbledon then Sutton (2tph) Which I believe is the same as the current basic service pattern, although without seeing calling patterns it's hard to say. Right - and all the added services are long-distance ones which are very unlikely to call at Kentish Town, and won't go anyhwere near Elephant. The "St Albans - Elephant & Castle - Sevenoaks" train is new, and could conceivably call at both. If you actually want to go from KX to Blackfriars, then i would certainly agree that Thameslink is probably your best bet. However, if you want to go from somewhere-north-of-KX to somewhere-south-of-Blackfriars, it probably isn't part of your route of choice. No. Especially if you're trying get to Kentish Town and you board a St Albans express, which I've obviously never done. U |
St Pancras Thameslink Platforms (Midland Rd)
In message , at
15:09:11 on Wed, 13 Jun 2007, Tom Anderson remarked: If you actually want to go from KX to Blackfriars, then i would certainly agree that Thameslink is probably your best bet. I used it quite often between City Thameslink (which is very close to Blackfriars of course) and KX. However, if you want to go from somewhere-north-of-KX to somewhere-south-of-Blackfriars, it probably isn't part of your route of choice. I did LAP-Gatwick a few months ago :) And next week I'll probably do Blackfriars-LAP (unless I convince myself that WestminsterLUL-WestHampstedLUL-LAP is quicker). -- Roland Perry |
St Pancras Thameslink Platforms (Midland Rd)
On Tue, 12 Jun 2007, jonmorris wrote:
On 12 Jun, 18:40, Tom Anderson wrote: Jon Morris's point, which you've helpfully snipped, that "the service frequency from King's Cross to Blackfriars makes it almost as good as any other tube line" is also shown to be an outrageous lie - 8 tph is barely a turn-up-and-go frequency, and not what i call tube frequency. I think a train every 7.5 minutes - or twice that if you need go to stations that aren't covered by the fast trains) - is quite frequent Okay. I don't. You can certainly turn up and go most of the time, although colleagues at work do look at the timetable. Now, at Farringdon where I work, you should also use a timetable for the tube lines - but I bet few people do, even though there is obviously a set pattern for H&C, Circle and Met line trains. Rest assured, if you need one specific service you'll potentially wait just as long as for a TL train. True - relying on specific services on the shallow lines is also something i've learned not to do. Perhaps if you've been unlucky enough to grow up out in the western branches of the Magical District Line Tree, you might think so, but as someone who lives at Finsbury Park, i don't. ...As someone who used to use Finsbury Park every day (but now goes through it), I can agree that the Victoria line is certainly better - but many - or most - other lines (especially in the outer reaches - such as Oakwood and Cockfosters which were other stations I used a lot) are anything up to 10 minutes apart or more at certain times of the day. It's certainly not just the District Line which I've never understood properly. :) Â Remember, if you're after the Piccadilly Line from Finsbury Park in the off peak period and want to go to beyond the centre of town then you'll need to divide up the service frequency between trains going to different destinations. Lord knows how I used to manage getting to Oakwood when so many trains suddenly changed to be turned back at Arnos Grove with about one stations notice! If you're heading into the branches off-peak, no, things are not so hot. But that "other lines [...] are anything up to 10 minutes apart or more at certain times of the day"? If by "anything up to 10 minutes apart or more" (which as it stands covers rather a range of times!) you mean "10 minutes apart or more", and you're referring to the major service on a piece of track (ie not counting the Piccadilly service beyond Rayner's Lane), and by "certain times" you don't meen right before the trains go to bed, then i think the number of places where this is true is very small indeed. tom -- We must perform a quirkafleeg |
St Pancras Thameslink Platforms (Midland Rd)
On Jun 13, 3:02 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
But presumably, that does mean that out in the suburbs, where the lines/branches go their separate ways, the frequency really is down to 6-8 tph. There are places where that's the case in London [...] too, although it's rare On the SSL, the service on the Watford, Richmond, Ealing Broadway (District), and Hammermisth (H&C) branches is 7tph. The tube lines I'm not sure about, but you don't have to go that far out to find 10 tph frequencies, especially in the middle of the day. U |
St Pancras Thameslink Platforms (Midland Rd)
On Jun 13, 3:09 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
If you actually want to go from KX to Blackfriars, then i would certainly agree that Thameslink is probably your best bet. However, if you want to go from somewhere-north-of-KX to somewhere-south-of-Blackfriars, it probably isn't part of your route of choice. tom -- We must perform a quirkafleeg Two routes where thameslink seems to compete with the tube are from elephant and castle or london bridge to kings cross. In each case the thameslink route looks shorter and has fewer intermediate stations, but thameslink takes longer, in my experience and according to the TfL journey planner. The trains often wait for 5 - 10 minutes at blackfriars. Presumably this is to give a robust timetable, but it surely won't be possible if they want 24tph - what will happen then? |
St Pancras Thameslink Platforms (Midland Rd)
"brixtonite" wrote in message oups.com... Two routes where thameslink seems to compete with the tube are from elephant and castle or london bridge to kings cross. In each case the thameslink route looks shorter and has fewer intermediate stations, but thameslink takes longer, in my experience and according to the TfL journey planner. The trains often wait for 5 - 10 minutes at blackfriars. Presumably this is to give a robust timetable, but it surely won't be possible if they want 24tph - what will happen then? Presumably they will manage 24 tph as predicted - don't forget the whole line will have been resignalled, the Moorgate branch will be closed, Blackfriars and Farringdon stations completely rebuilt, the lines to London Bridge quadrupled, London Bridge completely rebuilt, various flyovers constructed, Blackfriars terminating platforms moved etc. I've wondered though, what will be the average speed of successive trains between St Pancras and Blackfriars, given station dwell times etc, and how far apart will they be? Paul |
St Pancras Thameslink Platforms (Midland Rd)
On Wed, 13 Jun 2007, Mr Thant wrote:
On Jun 13, 3:02 pm, Tom Anderson wrote: But presumably, that does mean that out in the suburbs, where the lines/branches go their separate ways, the frequency really is down to 6-8 tph. There are places where that's the case in London [...] too, although it's rare On the SSL, the service on the Watford, Richmond, Ealing Broadway (District), and Hammermisth (H&C) branches is 7tph. Watford and Richmond are the kind of fringey case i was thinking of. Ealing Broadway also has at least 9 tph of Central line trains. Hammersmith, though, is an excellent example, and one i'd forgotten about; a fairly central area with a low frequency service even in the peaks, and without another service along the same tracks. The tube lines I'm not sure about, but you don't have to go that far out to find 10 tph frequencies, especially in the middle of the day. You know, what we need is a map which shows lines with their frequencies somehow. tom -- intelligence, purity, the potential freedom of space, and the potential aesthetics of mathematical computations |
St Pancras Thameslink Platforms (Midland Rd)
On Wed, 13 Jun 2007, Mr Thant wrote:
On Jun 13, 3:09 pm, Tom Anderson wrote: Reading between the lines at: http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/23 Which part are you looking at? The list under "service pattern". The list under "service pattern" includes: # Bedford - London Bridge - Brighton (4tph) # Luton - Elephant & Castle - Sutton, Wimbledon (4tph) clockwise via Sutton then Wimbledon (2tph) anticlockwise via Wimbledon then Sutton (2tph) Which I believe is the same as the current basic service pattern, although without seeing calling patterns it's hard to say. I assumed as much. Right - and all the added services are long-distance ones which are very unlikely to call at Kentish Town, and won't go anyhwere near Elephant. The "St Albans - Elephant & Castle - Sevenoaks" train is new, and could conceivably call at both. I assumed it would, given that existing St Albans trains are local, and Sevenoaks is a similar sort of distance to Sutton. That service is 2 tph, so we get 6 tph total local trains; the other 18 tph are express. If you actually want to go from KX to Blackfriars, then i would certainly agree that Thameslink is probably your best bet. However, if you want to go from somewhere-north-of-KX to somewhere-south-of-Blackfriars, it probably isn't part of your route of choice. No. Especially if you're trying get to Kentish Town and you board a St Albans express, which I've obviously never done. Splendid, glad to hear it. Even if you had made that entirely hypothetical mistake, it could be worse - you could have done so and then fallen asleep ... tom -- intelligence, purity, the potential freedom of space, and the potential aesthetics of mathematical computations |
St Pancras Thameslink Platforms (Midland Rd)
On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 10:25:46 -0700, D7666 wrote:
On Jun 12, 12:45 pm, Neil Williams wrote: Muenchen Hbf It was in fact München Hbf I was thinking of in relation to SPI (as I shall now call St Pancras International) as the overall footprint is similar - a deeper train shed in the centre with two wings one on each side. IIRC, Muenchen Hbf was originally 3 separate stations. Certainly one wing is still known as the Holzkirchner bahnhof. Another station with the same layout is Budapest Keleti Palyaudvar, as I discovered when trying to change from a late running arrival to an on-time starter there once. That cost me a serious on-train supplement, and the conductor claimed not to speak English or German, so I couldn't even argue with him about it! -- mikedotroebuckatgmxdotnet posted from Cheb (Eger), CZ |
St Pancras Thameslink Platforms (Midland Rd)
"Arthur Figgis" wrote in message ... Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 18:29:53 on Mon, 11 Jun 2007, Matt Wheeler remarked: London Victoria with 3 sets ? South Eastern Side, then, two sets of "south central" platforms, the "middle" ones where Gatwick Express is located, and then the high-numbered ones for longer distance Southern services to the coast which are down past the escalators to Victoria Place. No, you can stand at the entrance to the concourse and see all the platforms at once, and they are numbers intuitively from left to right. Pedantically, can you see them all from one point, or would either WHS (Chatham side) or the escalators up (high numbers) be in the way? Heading for any of them is simply a case of going a bit left, right or straight ahead. It gets more complicated if a Royal Train is leaving from platform 2 (or, in the past, when the Night Ferry occupied that platform) and access to platform 1 was from outside the station Peter |
St Pancras Thameslink Platforms (Midland Rd)
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 16:11:50 on Mon, 11 Jun 2007, Sky Rider remarked: On a side note the new Thameslink station will (like the station above) be called St Pancras International. Will there be any other station in the UK with four distinct sets of platforms (not counting LUL platforms)? Waterloo perhaps has three: Main concourse, East (or is that different station altogether) and Eurostar (even post E* they might be entered separately). Manchester Piccadilly has two, as does London Bridge; any other offers for three or more? Four for Stratford? The NLL platforms (for the time being), the Electric Lines (with cross-platform interchange to the Central Line, the Main Line platforms 9, 10, 10a, and the Lea Valley platform(s). And it has, separately, Central Line, Jubilee Line, and DLR platforms. peter |
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