Northern line near collision
 

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 00:53:41 -0700, wrote:

Sounds like a good old fashioned misunderstanding - motorman thought
he had been told to take the train back south and assumed therefore it
was a valid movement and that he had been given permission to depart.

A similar incident happened a few years ago at somewhere like Euston,
told to reverse his train (via shunt move) he simply walked to the
opposite end cab and was already to head off wrong line - can't
remember what stopped him. As a result fixed reds were hurriedly
installed at all platform 'wrong' ends presumably with trainstops, but
before starting in other direction they must check the tripcock is
correctly primed, in this case it evidently wasn't.

There would seem to be a gap in driver training.

Don't they have wrong line orders any more?

Rob

Northern line near collision
 

On 14 Jun, 21:20, "Clive D. W. Feather" c...@on-the-
train.demon.co.uk wrote:
In article .com,
Boltar writes

One wonders why the motorman didn't notice there was no signal at that
end of the platform.
You'd think he might have noticed something like that. What did he
do , see there was no signal at all and just thought "ooh , that must
mean green"?

Um, no signal *does* mean green.

I very much doubt that rule applies at a station.

B2003

Northern line near collision
 

On Jun 14, 6:52 pm, Boltar wrote:
On Jun 14, 4:34 pm, Christopher A.Lee wrote:



One wonders why the motorman didn't notice there was no signal at that
end of the platform.

You'd think he might have noticed something like that. What did he
do , see there was no signal at all and just thought "ooh , that must
mean green"? What a dick. I hope he's fired just like any bus or truck
driver would be if they drove the wrong way down a main road though
I'm sure Bob Crowe will crawl out from under his rock at some point
and try and blame LU or Metronet for it.

B2003

Something doesn't ring true here. I am an occassional user of Camden
but I think that even I would know which platform I was on and if I
was about set off in the wrong direction. Some how a driver gets out
of a train in the Edgware platform but then gets in the back of a
train in the HB platform and drives off SB. Wouldn't he have noticed
something odd about the directions he took on foot. We are not talking
a non underground savvy tourist here.

Kevin

Northern line near collision
 

wrote in message
oups.com...
On 14 Jun, 21:37, chunky munky wrote:
On Jun 14, 9:20 pm, "Clive D. W. Feather" c...@on-the-





train.demon.co.uk wrote:
In article .com,
Boltar writes

One wonders why the motorman didn't notice there was no signal at
that
end of the platform.
You'd think he might have noticed something like that. What did he
do , see there was no signal at all and just thought "ooh , that must
mean green"?

Um, no signal *does* mean green. Unlit signal - not the same thing -
means red.

Having said that, I can't offhand think of any LU station that doesn't
have a starting signal at the end of the platform.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web:
http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

There is a rumour that there was a Fixed Red Light but this was
"bagged" over. Dont know about the associated train stop but within
the past few months contractors working for Tube Lines have concreted
one over in error that caused delays to the train service.

Stations without station starters are Croxley (Southbound) and
Chesham, some others do have them a fair way out of the platform.- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sounds like a good old fashioned misunderstanding - motorman thought
he had been told to take the train back south and assumed therefore it
was a valid movement and that he had been given permission to depart.

A similar incident happened a few years ago at somewhere like Euston,
told to reverse his train (via shunt move) he simply walked to the
opposite end cab and was already to head off wrong line - can't
remember what stopped him. As a result fixed reds were hurriedly
installed at all platform 'wrong' ends presumably with trainstops, but
before starting in other direction they must check the tripcock is
correctly primed, in this case it evidently wasn't.

There would seem to be a gap in driver training.

AIUI the fixed reds were installed, followingv earlier incidents, at
stations where a reversing move is possible - in one direction this would be
via a shunt move, while in the other direction the reversal is directly from
the platform. As these moves are comaparatively uncommon, for any driver at
a particular station, it must be easy to confuse whether or not a shunt move
is needed.

However, in the warren of passageways at a station like Camden Town (or even
Warren Street ;-) ) it is easy to get disoriented and lose all sense of
direction - perhaps this is what happened to the driver or Sunday evening.

Peter

Northern line near collision
 

However, in the warren of passageways at a station like Camden Town (or even
Warren Street ;-) ) it is easy to get disoriented and lose all sense of
direction - perhaps this is what happened to the driver or Sunday evening.

Camden has to be one of the easiest stations to negotiate, unless you
were using the short interchange at the southern end and lets face it
the driver of a northbound train wouldn't have been usung that tunnel.

What I don't understand is anybody with a little knowledge of Camden,
let alone a driver, would know that on the HB platform the platform
would have been on the LHS. Why didn't the driver think that there was
something odd about the platform on his RHS. Or did he think he was
driving a southbound train heading for Euston.

Kevin

Northern line near collision
 

Kev wrote:

Something doesn't ring true here. I am an occassional user of Camden
but I think that even I would know which platform I was on and if I
was about set off in the wrong direction. Some how a driver gets out
of a train in the Edgware platform but then gets in the back of a
train in the HB platform and drives off SB. Wouldn't he have noticed
something odd about the directions he took on foot. We are not talking
a non underground savvy tourist here.

He might never set foot on the station.

Northern line near collision
 

On Jun 15, 12:25 pm, "John Rowland"
wrote:
Kev wrote:

Something doesn't ring true here. I am an occassional user of Camden
but I think that even I would know which platform I was on and if I
was about set off in the wrong direction. Some how a driver gets out
of a train in the Edgware platform but then gets in the back of a
train in the HB platform and drives off SB. Wouldn't he have noticed
something odd about the directions he took on foot. We are not talking
a non underground savvy tourist here.

He might never set foot on the station.

Then that is really scarey that a highly professional, well paid
driver can't follow the simple signs that all the rest of us have to
follow. Alternatively if he was that lost could he have asked one of
the passengers that just got off his/her own train to hold his/her
hand. Camden is quite simple, from the front of the train walk to the
centre of the station and follow the signs for the HB platform,
basically turn left then walk straight then turn left again to head
back the way you came. It seems odd that on reaching the HB platform
he didn't think to turn back on the direction he had headed from the
train in the Edgware platfom. How many times had this driver driven a
train through Camden.
Isn't the driver responsible for the safety of the passenger or does
that only extend from the train to the platform where somebody else is
responsible for evacuation in an emergency.

Northern line near collision
 

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 12:25:02 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:

Kev wrote:

Something doesn't ring true here. I am an occassional user of Camden
but I think that even I would know which platform I was on and if I
was about set off in the wrong direction. Some how a driver gets out
of a train in the Edgware platform but then gets in the back of a
train in the HB platform and drives off SB. Wouldn't he have noticed
something odd about the directions he took on foot. We are not talking
a non underground savvy tourist here.

He might never set foot on the station.

However he would have known the platforms from the cab.

Northern line near collision
 

In message .com, at
04:42:05 on Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Kev remarked:
It seems odd that on reaching the HB platform
he didn't think to turn back on the direction he had headed from the
train in the Edgware platfom. How many times had this driver driven a
train through Camden.

Isn't it simpler than that?

1) The drivers switched trains, and unless they both left them in some
nondirectional state with red lights at both ends, the new driver would
have had to reverse the trains "direction" in that respect.

2) The driver's end of the platforms have either CCTV monitors or large
mirrors. These are very easy to recognise.

I conclude that the driver thought he had been told to reverse.
--
Roland Perry

Northern line near collision
 

Christopher A.Lee wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 12:25:02 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:

Kev wrote:

Something doesn't ring true here. I am an occassional user of Camden
but I think that even I would know which platform I was on and if I
was about set off in the wrong direction. Some how a driver gets out
of a train in the Edgware platform but then gets in the back of a
train in the HB platform and drives off SB. Wouldn't he have noticed
something odd about the directions he took on foot. We are not
talking a non underground savvy tourist here.

He might never set foot on the station.

However he would have known the platforms from the cab.

Passengers who use the station know that the northbound platforms are at the
same depth as each other, and the southbound platforms are at the same depth
as each other. I don't expect a driver would necessarily know that.

Northern line near collision
 

On 15 Jun, 12:52, Roland Perry wrote:
Isn't it simpler than that?
1) The drivers switched trains, and unless they both left them in some
nondirectional state with red lights at both ends, the new driver would
have had to reverse the trains "direction" in that respect.

To the best of my knowledge, that is exactly how the trains would have
been left.

2) The driver's end of the platforms have either CCTV monitors or large
mirrors. These are very easy to recognise.

Not on the Northern Line, as on this line the trains have in-cab
monitors. AFAIK these *will* function in the wrong direction,
certainly in some locations.


I conclude that the driver thought he had been told to reverse.

It's possible, and there is a crossover at Mornington Crescent -
though not accessible from Camden Town, something the driver should
have known from line knowledge. However, I think it is more likely the
driver simply became disorientated, or confused for some other reason.
It's probably an easier mistake to make than you would think.

BRB Class 465.

Northern line near collision
 

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Roland Perry wrote:

In message .com, at
04:42:05 on Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Kev remarked:

It seems odd that on reaching the HB platform he didn't think to turn
back on the direction he had headed from the train in the Edgware
platfom. How many times had this driver driven a train through Camden.

Isn't it simpler than that?

1) The drivers switched trains, and unless they both left them in some
nondirectional state with red lights at both ends, the new driver would have
had to reverse the trains "direction" in that respect.

2) The driver's end of the platforms have either CCTV monitors or large
mirrors. These are very easy to recognise.

Plus, the guy is a Northern line driver, and so presumably knows the whole
thing like the back of his hand. Any explanation which involves him not
being sure where he was strikes me as highly dubious.

I conclude that the driver thought he had been told to reverse.

Is that possible? Is there a crossover he could have been heading for? Our
survey (of Tubeprune's Northern line signalling diagrams):

http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Ca...wn-lct5-10.gif

Says yes - there's one just north of Mornington Crescent; does that fit
with the description of the incident?

tom

--
Let us learn to dream, gentlemen, and then perhaps we will learn the
truth. -- Friedrich Kekule

Northern line near collision
 

On 15 Jun, 13:02, "John Rowland"
wrote:
Passengers who use the station know that the northbound platforms are at the
same depth as each other, and the southbound platforms are at the same depth
as each other. I don't expect a driver would necessarily know that.

He should know that edgware and barnet are in the same direction
however. No matter how many excuses people make for this guy he made a
fundamental mistake which a regular commuter wouldn't have made ,
never mind a driver who should know better, and he could have caused a
major crash. Ergo he should get the boot. Though knowing what the
unions are like I expect he won't. Maybe he'll just be sent on Squash
leave or something.

B2003

Northern line near collision
 

Boltar wrote:

No matter how many excuses people make for this guy he made a
fundamental mistake which a regular commuter wouldn't have made ,
never mind a driver who should know better, and he could have caused a
major crash. Ergo he should get the boot. Though knowing what the
unions are like I expect he won't. Maybe he'll just be sent on Squash
leave or something.

Put him on the W&C!

Northern line near collision
 

On Jun 15, 12:52 pm, Roland Perry wrote:
1) The drivers switched trains, and unless they both left them in some
nondirectional state with red lights at both ends, the new driver would
have had to reverse the trains "direction" in that respect.

I'd imagine once a cab is locked the train is in a non-directional
state.

2) The driver's end of the platforms have either CCTV monitors or large
mirrors. These are very easy to recognise.

Not on the Northern which has in-cab CCTV monitors, and would
presumably have been working even at the wrong end. And since the
cameras can point either direction, it wouldn't have been obvious the
image was the wrong way round.

We also don't know how much time elapsed between getting out of his
train and getting in the other one. He could conceivably have been
dragged upstairs to talk to the station manager, or been being hassled
by all the passengers on the platform, or many other things that made
him lose his bearings.

U

Northern line near collision
 

In ,
John Rowland typed:
Boltar wrote:

No matter how many excuses people make for this guy he made a
fundamental mistake which a regular commuter wouldn't have made ,
never mind a driver who should know better, and he could have caused
a major crash. Ergo he should get the boot. Though knowing what the
unions are like I expect he won't. Maybe he'll just be sent on Squash
leave or something.

Put him on the W&C!

Perhaps he had just been to the WC and that was what made him forget
what he was supposed to be doing!





--
Bob

Northern line near collision
 

In message . com, at
12:19:03 on Fri, 15 Jun 2007, BRB Class 465
remarked:
I think it is more likely the driver simply became disorientated, or
confused for some other reason. It's probably an easier mistake to make
than you would think.

Yes, I am prepared to believe that, if as you say there's no cctv/mirror
furniture on the platforms.
--
Roland Perry

Northern line near collision
 

On 15 Jun, 14:38, Roland Perry wrote:
In message . com, at
12:19:03 on Fri, 15 Jun 2007, BRB Class 465
remarked:

I think it is more likely the driver simply became disorientated, or
confused for some other reason. It's probably an easier mistake to make
than you would think.

Yes, I am prepared to believe that, if as you say there's no cctv/mirror
furniture on the platforms.

Theres a signal at one end of the platform but not the other. Which
way should the train go? Hmm , tricky one....

B2003

Northern line near collision
 

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:02:49 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:

Christopher A.Lee wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 12:25:02 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:

Kev wrote:

Something doesn't ring true here. I am an occassional user of Camden
but I think that even I would know which platform I was on and if I
was about set off in the wrong direction. Some how a driver gets out
of a train in the Edgware platform but then gets in the back of a
train in the HB platform and drives off SB. Wouldn't he have noticed
something odd about the directions he took on foot. We are not
talking a non underground savvy tourist here.

He might never set foot on the station.

However he would have known the platforms from the cab.

Passengers who use the station know that the northbound platforms are at the
same depth as each other, and the southbound platforms are at the same depth
as each other. I don't expect a driver would necessarily know that.

That's not what I meant.

He would have seen all the platforms from the cab ever since he had
been driving on the Northern Line. Even if he did not know the details
the same way a passenger would, by the time he got into the wrong cab
he should have known something was wrong because it didn't look like
what he expected to see.

There have been suggestions it could have been a shunting move, which
doesn't make sense unless both trains were being reversed, which is
possible if the previous blocks on each route to the rear were clear.
But they weren't.

And in any case, shouldn't this require some kind of wrong line order?
The signalling certainly doesn't permit this.

It's my guess he was disoriented and confused. Especially if the
subway took him to that end of the train. But he should have realised
when he didn't see what he would have expected.

Northern line near collision
 

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:39:16 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Roland Perry wrote:

In message .com, at
04:42:05 on Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Kev remarked:

It seems odd that on reaching the HB platform he didn't think to turn
back on the direction he had headed from the train in the Edgware
platfom. How many times had this driver driven a train through Camden.

Isn't it simpler than that?

1) The drivers switched trains, and unless they both left them in some
nondirectional state with red lights at both ends, the new driver would have
had to reverse the trains "direction" in that respect.

2) The driver's end of the platforms have either CCTV monitors or large
mirrors. These are very easy to recognise.

Plus, the guy is a Northern line driver, and so presumably knows the whole
thing like the back of his hand. Any explanation which involves him not
being sure where he was strikes me as highly dubious.

I conclude that the driver thought he had been told to reverse.

Is that possible? Is there a crossover he could have been heading for? Our
survey (of Tubeprune's Northern line signalling diagrams):

http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Ca...wn-lct5-10.gif

Says yes - there's one just north of Mornington Crescent; does that fit
with the description of the incident?

If it was a shunting move to get him onto the correct route, this
wouldn't be necessary.

Both trains would have to reverse through the junction and wait for
the correct routes.

But the story is the were taking the simpler option. to swap the crew
and passengers between each train.

After which they would both have continues each others' journeys.

Northern line near collision
 

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Christopher A.Lee wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:39:16 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Roland Perry wrote:

In message .com, at
04:42:05 on Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Kev remarked:

It seems odd that on reaching the HB platform he didn't think to turn
back on the direction he had headed from the train in the Edgware
platfom. How many times had this driver driven a train through
Camden.

I conclude that the driver thought he had been told to reverse.

Is that possible? Is there a crossover he could have been heading for? Our
survey (of Tubeprune's Northern line signalling diagrams):

http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Ca...wn-lct5-10.gif

Says yes - there's one just north of Mornington Crescent; does that fit
with the description of the incident?

If it was a shunting move to get him onto the correct route, this
wouldn't be necessary.

But if the driver thought he was turning that train and taking it south
again, he might have been heading for the crossover. That isn't what he
was told to do, but there could have been a communications breakdown.

tom

--
The idiots are winning.

Northern line near collision
 

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, BRB Class 465 wrote:

On 15 Jun, 12:52, Roland Perry wrote:

I conclude that the driver thought he had been told to reverse.

It's possible, and there is a crossover at Mornington Crescent - though
not accessible from Camden Town, something the driver should have known
from line knowledge.

No? I assume you mean the crossover between signals E29 and E31 shown
he

http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Ca...wn-lct5-10.gif

What makes it not accessible? A genuine question - i know nothing about
this stuff. If it can't be got to from Camden, where can it?

tom

--
The idiots are winning.

Northern line near collision
 

On 15 Jun, 16:19, Tom Anderson wrote:


But if the driver thought he was turning that train and taking it south
again, he might have been heading for the crossover. That isn't what he
was told to do, but there could have been a communications breakdown.

Like most incidents, this was a combination of errors - Driver given
wrong route; Driver accepted wrong route; Driver set off in wrong
direction.

It's also worth remembering that two drivers were at fault (assuming
that the driver given the wrong rout wasn't told to take it) - the
driver who set off in the wrong direction was the driver who had
swapped to the wrongly routed train.

Northern line near collision
 

So many opinions, so few facts. Why don't we discuss how many angels can
dance on the head of a pin?

Northern line near collision
 

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, BRB Class 465 wrote:

On 15 Jun, 12:52, Roland Perry wrote:

I conclude that the driver thought he had been told to reverse.

It's possible, and there is a crossover at Mornington Crescent -
though not accessible from Camden Town, something the driver
should have known from line knowledge.

No? I assume you mean the crossover between signals E29 and E31
shown he

http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Ca...wn-lct5-10.gif

What makes it not accessible? A genuine question - i know nothing
about this stuff. If it can't be got to from Camden, where can it?

From a shunt manoeuvre from Mornington Crescent, I should think. From
that diagram, you can see that there are no signals permitting wrong-way
working except at the points controlling the crossover itself.

There is also, as I discovered this afternoon, an unilluminated STOP
sign (white letters on a red disc) on the left-hand tunnel wall at the
south end of the High Barnet northbound platform at Camden Town.

If the driver entered the rear cab by mistake, he must have been
mightily confused. The main passageway linking the two northbound
platforms is straight and level. As you enter the High Barnet platform
from the passageway, the starter repeater on the platform is clearly
visible. Even if he had, for some reason, used the small passageway at
the southern end of the platforms which is full of steps and bends, he
should immediately have recognised that he was at the wrong end of the
train. The High Barnet platform is a short one, and the rear set of
passenger doors do not open there. He would have had to squeeze past
those en route to the rear cab.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Northern line near collision
 

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, BRB Class 465 wrote:

On 15 Jun, 12:52, Roland Perry wrote:

I conclude that the driver thought he had been told to reverse.

It's possible, and there is a crossover at Mornington Crescent - though
not accessible from Camden Town, something the driver should have known
from line knowledge.

No? I assume you mean the crossover between signals E29 and E31 shown
he

http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Ca...wn-lct5-10.gif

What makes it not accessible? A genuine question - i know nothing about
this stuff. If it can't be got to from Camden, where can it?

That crossover allows trains to go Camden Town SB - Mornington Crescent SB
(reverse) - Camden Town NB. It also allows Mornington Crescent NB - Signal
E4 (reverse) - Mornington Crescent SB.

Although physically possible, there are no signals allowing a move from
Camden Town NB - Mornington Crescent SB via that crossover.

Peter Smyth

Northern line near collision
 

On 15 Jun, 18:08, "Richard J." wrote:
From a shunt manoeuvre from Mornington Crescent, I should think. From
that diagram, you can see that there are no signals permitting wrong-way
working except at the points controlling the crossover itself.

Arrangements for reversing at Mornington Crescent are as follows:-

Reversing north to south:-
Detrain customers and close the doors (there is currently no Limit of
Shunt board). When signal E2 clears, proceed but DO NO GO PAST signal
E4. Shut down, fully secure and change ends. When shunt signal E29
clears proceed over crossover into the southbound platform.

Reversing south to North:-
Detrain customers and close the doors in the platform. Shut down,
fully secure and
station starting signal E3 clears, proceed northbound over crossover.


BRB Class 465.

Northern line near collision
 

On 15 Jun, 12:42, Kev wrote:

Then that is really scarey that a highly professional, well paid
driver can't follow the simple signs that all the rest of us have to
follow.
Isn't the driver responsible for the safety of the passenger or does
that only extend from the train to the platform where somebody else is
responsible for evacuation in an emergency.

(Snipped Text above)

The driver made a mistake because he is a human, like you (maybe) and
I.
Unfortunately mistakes are made and just becuase his job is more
safety critical role does not reduce the fact that he is going to make
a mistake.

The best they can do is find out what lead the driver to make the
mistake and try and prevent it in the future.

How do your comments really help?

Northern line near collision
 

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 16:19:01 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Christopher A.Lee wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:39:16 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Roland Perry wrote:

In message .com, at
04:42:05 on Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Kev remarked:

It seems odd that on reaching the HB platform he didn't think to turn
back on the direction he had headed from the train in the Edgware
platfom. How many times had this driver driven a train through
Camden.

I conclude that the driver thought he had been told to reverse.

Is that possible? Is there a crossover he could have been heading for? Our
survey (of Tubeprune's Northern line signalling diagrams):

http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Ca...wn-lct5-10.gif

Says yes - there's one just north of Mornington Crescent; does that fit
with the description of the incident?

If it was a shunting move to get him onto the correct route, this
wouldn't be necessary.

But if the driver thought he was turning that train and taking it south
again, he might have been heading for the crossover. That isn't what he
was told to do, but there could have been a communications breakdown.

Shouldn't either have these have required a wrong line order?

tom

Northern line near collision
 

On Jun 15, 4:00 pm, Christopher A.Lee wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:39:16 +0100, Tom Anderson





wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Roland Perry wrote:

In message .com, at
04:42:05 on Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Kev remarked:

It seems odd that on reaching the HB platform he didn't think to turn
back on the direction he had headed from the train in the Edgware
platfom. How many times had this driver driven a train through Camden.

Isn't it simpler than that?

1) The drivers switched trains, and unless they both left them in some
nondirectional state with red lights at both ends, the new driver would have
had to reverse the trains "direction" in that respect.

2) The driver's end of the platforms have either CCTV monitors or large
mirrors. These are very easy to recognise.

Plus, the guy is a Northern line driver, and so presumably knows the whole
thing like the back of his hand. Any explanation which involves him not
being sure where he was strikes me as highly dubious.

I conclude that the driver thought he had been told to reverse.

Is that possible? Is there a crossover he could have been heading for? Our
survey (of Tubeprune's Northern line signalling diagrams):

http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Ca...wn-lct5-10.gif

Says yes - there's one just north of Mornington Crescent; does that fit
with the description of the incident?

If it was a shunting move to get him onto the correct route, this
wouldn't be necessary.

Both trains would have to reverse through the junction and wait for
the correct routes.

But the story is the were taking the simpler option. to swap the crew
and passengers between each train.

After which they would both have continues each others' journeys.-



They wouldn't though, would they. They'd be continuing their own
journey.

That is, driver due to end up at Edgware goes into the Barnet
platform, so swaps trains so that he will still end up in Edgware, and
vice versa.

That would make sense. If the driver thought he was meant to reverse
the train to get back to the correct route, there would be no reason
for the drivers to swap trains.

Northern line near collision
 

On Jun 15, 3:55 pm, Christopher A.Lee wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:02:49 +0100, "John Rowland"





wrote:
Christopher A.Lee wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 12:25:02 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:

Kev wrote:

Something doesn't ring true here. I am an occassional user of Camden
but I think that even I would know which platform I was on and if I
was about set off in the wrong direction. Some how a driver gets out
of a train in the Edgware platform but then gets in the back of a
train in the HB platform and drives off SB. Wouldn't he have noticed
something odd about the directions he took on foot. We are not
talking a non underground savvy tourist here.

He might never set foot on the station.

However he would have known the platforms from the cab.

Passengers who use the station know that the northbound platforms are at the
same depth as each other, and the southbound platforms are at the same depth
as each other. I don't expect a driver would necessarily know that.

That's not what I meant.

He would have seen all the platforms from the cab ever since he had
been driving on the Northern Line. Even if he did not know the details
the same way a passenger would, by the time he got into the wrong cab
he should have known something was wrong because it didn't look like
what he expected to see.

There have been suggestions it could have been a shunting move, which
doesn't make sense unless both trains were being reversed, which is
possible if the previous blocks on each route to the rear were clear.
But they weren't.

And in any case, shouldn't this require some kind of wrong line order?
The signalling certainly doesn't permit this.

It's my guess he was disoriented and confused. Especially if the
subway took him to that end of the train. But he should have realised
when he didn't see what he would have expected



One thing about this, on the Barnet Branch, the platform is to the
left of the train if you are facing the front, and on the Edgware
branch it's to the right.

So it is true that if the driver left the train from a platform where
the platform was to one side of the train and got in the cab on the
other platform where it appeared to be to the same side of the train,
he would be going the other way.

Northern line near collision
 

On Jun 14, 5:12 pm, Christopher A.Lee wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 15:57:44 GMT, "Jack Taylor"
wrote:

Christopher A.Lee wrote:

This was in the evening rush hour so it was potentially disastrous.

On a Sunday? ;-)

You're right, I didn't check the day.



Camden Town is rather busy on a Sunday.

Northern line near collision
 

In message
"John Rowland" wrote:


So many opinions, so few facts. Why don't we discuss how many angels can
dance on the head of a pin?



42

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

Northern line near collision
 

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 10:38:34 -0700, MIG
wrote:

On Jun 15, 4:00 pm, Christopher A.Lee wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:39:16 +0100, Tom Anderson





wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Roland Perry wrote:

In message .com, at
04:42:05 on Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Kev remarked:

It seems odd that on reaching the HB platform he didn't think to turn
back on the direction he had headed from the train in the Edgware
platfom. How many times had this driver driven a train through Camden.

Isn't it simpler than that?

1) The drivers switched trains, and unless they both left them in some
nondirectional state with red lights at both ends, the new driver would have
had to reverse the trains "direction" in that respect.

2) The driver's end of the platforms have either CCTV monitors or large
mirrors. These are very easy to recognise.

Plus, the guy is a Northern line driver, and so presumably knows the whole
thing like the back of his hand. Any explanation which involves him not
being sure where he was strikes me as highly dubious.

I conclude that the driver thought he had been told to reverse.

Is that possible? Is there a crossover he could have been heading for? Our
survey (of Tubeprune's Northern line signalling diagrams):

http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Ca...wn-lct5-10.gif

Says yes - there's one just north of Mornington Crescent; does that fit
with the description of the incident?

If it was a shunting move to get him onto the correct route, this
wouldn't be necessary.

Both trains would have to reverse through the junction and wait for
the correct routes.

But the story is the were taking the simpler option. to swap the crew
and passengers between each train.

After which they would both have continues each others' journeys.-



They wouldn't though, would they. They'd be continuing their own
journey.

Sorry, I phrased that badly - that's what I meant.

That is, driver due to end up at Edgware goes into the Barnet
platform, so swaps trains so that he will still end up in Edgware, and
vice versa.

That would make sense. If the driver thought he was meant to reverse
the train to get back to the correct route, there would be no reason
for the drivers to swap trains.

Northern line near collision
 

On 15 Jun, 18:20, The Jinx wrote:

The driver made a mistake because he is a human, like you (maybe) and
I.
Unfortunately mistakes are made and just becuase his job is more
safety critical role does not reduce the fact that he is going to make
a mistake.

Theres a difference between a mistake and a complete cock-up. We're
not talking about him overshooting a shation by a few metres , he
almost caused a head on collision by driving the wrong way when it
should have been bloody obvious he was going the wrong way. He might
be human but he's also supposed to be trained and if he can't get
something as fundamental as the direction correct he shouldn't be in
the job.

B2003

Northern line near collision
 

On 15 Jun, 21:40, Boltar wrote:
Theres a difference between a mistake and a complete cock-up. We're
not talking about him overshooting a shation by a few metres , he
almost caused a head on collision by driving the wrong way when it
should have been bloody obvious he was going the wrong way. He might
be human but he's also supposed to be trained and if he can't get
something as fundamental as the direction correct he shouldn't be in
the job.

What are you going to do about it?

Northern line near collision
 

chunky munky wrote:
On Jun 14, 9:20 pm, "Clive D. W. Feather" c...@on-the-
train.demon.co.uk wrote:
In article .com,
Boltar writes

One wonders why the motorman didn't notice there was no signal
at that end of the platform.
You'd think he might have noticed something like that. What did he
do , see there was no signal at all and just thought "ooh , that
must mean green"?

Um, no signal *does* mean green. Unlit signal - not the same thing
- means red.

Having said that, I can't offhand think of any LU station that
doesn't have a starting signal at the end of the platform.

There is a rumour that there was a Fixed Red Light but this was
"bagged" over.

In a post elsewhere in this thread, I said that there is a "STOP" disc
on the tunnel wall at the southbound end of the High Barnet northbound
platform at Camden Town. When I looked more carefully at the photo I
took this afternoon, I noticed that there is indeed an object just north
of the Stop disc that seems to have a plastic bag over it. Is this
perhaps the fixed red light that you mentioned? Anyone know how long it
has been like that?

Photo at http://rjnews.fotopic.net/p42305755.html

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Northern line near collision
 

On Jun 15, 10:03 pm, "Richard J." wrote:
chunky munky wrote:
On Jun 14, 9:20 pm, "Clive D. W. Feather" c...@on-the-
train.demon.co.uk wrote:
In article .com,
Boltar writes

One wonders why the motorman didn't notice there was no signal
at that end of the platform.
You'd think he might have noticed something like that. What did he
do , see there was no signal at all and just thought "ooh , that
must mean green"?

Um, no signal *does* mean green. Unlit signal - not the same thing
- means red.

Having said that, I can't offhand think of any LU station that
doesn't have a starting signal at the end of the platform.

There is a rumour that there was a Fixed Red Light but this was
"bagged" over.

In a post elsewhere in this thread, I said that there is a "STOP" disc
on the tunnel wall at the southbound end of the High Barnet northbound
platform at Camden Town. When I looked more carefully at the photo I
took this afternoon, I noticed that there is indeed an object just north
of the Stop disc that seems to have a plastic bag over it. Is this
perhaps the fixed red light that you mentioned? Anyone know how long it
has been like that?

Photo athttp://rjnews.fotopic.net/p42305755.html

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)


There was a rumour going round that a FRL had indeed been bagged over
(probably a wiring fault that is too expensive for Tube Lines - who
are worse than Metromess- to repair). I wonder if there was a
trainstop to go with the FRL?????

Hopefully the Train Operator won't be sacked but either put on a
Corrective Action Plan or at very worst reduced in grade.

Northern line near collision
 

chunky munky wrote:
On Jun 15, 10:03 pm, "Richard J."
wrote:
chunky munky wrote:

There is a rumour that there was a Fixed Red Light but this was
"bagged" over.

In a post elsewhere in this thread, I said that there is a "STOP"
disc on the tunnel wall at the southbound end of the High Barnet
northbound platform at Camden Town. When I looked more carefully
at the photo I took this afternoon, I noticed that there is indeed
an object just north of the Stop disc that seems to have a plastic
bag over it. Is this perhaps the fixed red light that you
mentioned? Anyone know how long it has been like that?

Photo athttp://rjnews.fotopic.net/p42305755.html

There was a rumour going round that a FRL had indeed been bagged
over (probably a wiring fault that is too expensive for Tube Lines
- who are worse than Metromess- to repair). I wonder if there was
a trainstop to go with the FRL?????

Sorry, I forgot to look. The original photo is very grainy when
enhanced, but I can't see any sign of a trainstop (it would be on the
other side of the track to the bagged "signal" of course).

Hopefully the Train Operator won't be sacked but either put on a
Corrective Action Plan or at very worst reduced in grade.

Is that comment based on knowledge that hasn't been revealed here of why
he did what he did? If not, then surely at the very worst he was
grossly negligent and would need to be sacked. I'm not saying that is
the case, as there might be mitigating circumstances, but there are
serious issues of public safety here that override any considerations of
sympathy with an individual's career.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Northern line near collision
 

Graeme Wall wrote:
In message
"John Rowland"
wrote:


So many opinions, so few facts. Why don't we discuss how many angels
can dance on the head of a pin?



42

In a 9 * 6 formation?