Northern line near collision
 

On Jun 14, 11:17 pm, " wrote:
Have there not also been "incredibly rare"
cases of trains "running away" in the "wrong" direction unchecked
because trainstop devices are set up on the premise that if trains are
going to do something naughty they'll always have the courtesy to do
it whilst proceeding forwards in the correct direction of travel?

Which is why all trains are being installed (or possibly have been by
now, not sure) with rollback protection devices that will apply the
emergency brakes if they roll backwards too far. Doesn't help if it's
being driven from the wrong end, mind.

U

Northern line near collision
 

Paul Scott wrote:
From RAIB web site:

"At approx 17:35 hrs a northbound Northern Line train was
incorrectly signalled into the High Barnet platform at Camden Town
when it was scheduled to go to Edgware. To minimise passenger
delay the following High Barnet train was signalled into the
Edgware platform, and arrangements were made to exchange passengers
and crews between the two trains. When the train in the High
Barnet platform was ready to depart it set off in a southerly
direction for a short distance; the driver saw the lights of the
next northbound train, which was standing at a signal, and stopped
the train."

I'm interested in the arrangements for exchanging passengers and crews
between the two trains. Were the doors left open on both trains during
this time? If so, are drivers allowed to leave their trains
unsupervised while they carry out the swap? I didn't think so, in which
case wouldn't it need a member of the station staff to "look after" the
train, and hand over to the new driver when he arrived?

Also, wouldn't the train have been left in northbound mode, with red
lights to the rear and white lights at the front? Would it need a
conscious change of that directional set-up to be able to drive
southbound from the rear cab?
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Northern line near collision
 

In article ,
Ben wrote:
Nick Leverton wrote:

1(9) Accidents or incidents

Hints and allegations?


Watch out for that boy ... no, the one in the bubble over there ...

But have you noticed the way the camera follows you in slo-mo?

I'll be with you in a minute - this is a long distance call.

Nick
--
http://www.leverton.org/blosxom ... So express yourself

Northern line near collision
 

What did he do, see there was no signal at all and just thought
"ooh, that must mean green"?

Um, no signal *does* mean green. Unlit signal - not the same thing -
means red.

Um, actually, no signal means that whatever the last signal meant is
still in effect. Like, y'know, yellow.

Not if it is in the opposite direction!

Ah, good point!
--
Mark Brader, Toronto Premature generalization is
the square root of all evil.

Northern line near collision
 

On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:27:32 +0100, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

From RAIB web site:

"At approx 17:35 hrs a northbound Northern Line train was incorrectly
signalled into the High Barnet platform at Camden Town when it was scheduled
to go to Edgware. To minimise passenger delay the following High Barnet
train was signalled into the Edgware platform, and arrangements were made to
exchange passengers and crews between the two trains. When the train in the
High Barnet platform was ready to depart it set off in a southerly direction
for a short distance; the driver saw the lights of the next northbound
train, which was standing at a signal, and stopped the train."

A nice clear explanation for the layman

Does that mean the driver got in the cab at the wrong end of the
train?

Northern line near collision
 

Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
In article .com,
BRB Class 465 writes
However, railway signalling is designed to prevent *unsafe*
situations from arising. A train ending up on the wrong route isn't
really unsafe, merely inconvenient (with certain exceptions, for
example if the train is too large to fit into a tunnel).

And that sort of exception *is* catered for by the signalling (e.g.
with height detectors connected to the signals).

Has a height detector ever stopped a train?

Northern line near collision
 

In article , Mark Brader
writes
Um, no signal *does* mean green. Unlit signal - not the same thing -
means red.
Um, actually, no signal means that whatever the last signal meant is
still in effect. Like, y'know, yellow.

Okay. I was thinking in terms of LU two aspect signalling, where yellow
simply means "the signal you can't see yet is red" and doesn't give an
instruction of its own.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Northern line near collision
 

In article .com,
writes
Um, no signal *does* mean green. Unlit signal - not the same thing -
means red.
Does it?
No signal when there should be one, as you pointed out = unlit signal
= red.

I'll have to think about this. There is no "where there should be one"
in railway signalling, but if a driver's route knowledge leads him to
think that there should be a signal at some landmark (in this case, the
headwall) then he should treat its absence as a danger.

I'm reminded of the Nuneaton derailment, where the driver took the lack
of a TSR warning to mean that the TSR had been removed.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Northern line near collision
 

On Jun 14, 11:49 pm, "Richard J." wrote:
Paul Scott wrote:
From RAIB web site:

"At approx 17:35 hrs a northbound Northern Line train was
incorrectly signalled into the High Barnet platform at Camden Town
when it was scheduled to go to Edgware. To minimise passenger
delay the following High Barnet train was signalled into the
Edgware platform, and arrangements were made to exchange passengers
and crews between the two trains. When the train in the High
Barnet platform was ready to depart it set off in a southerly
direction for a short distance; the driver saw the lights of the
next northbound train, which was standing at a signal, and stopped
the train."

I'm interested in the arrangements for exchanging passengers and crews
between the two trains. Were the doors left open on both trains during
this time? If so, are drivers allowed to leave their trains
unsupervised while they carry out the swap? I didn't think so, in which
case wouldn't it need a member of the station staff to "look after" the
train, and hand over to the new driver when he arrived?

Also, wouldn't the train have been left in northbound mode, with red
lights to the rear and white lights at the front? Would it need a
conscious change of that directional set-up to be able to drive
southbound from the rear cab?
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)


So long as the train is secured and the keys removed this is okay and
both Train Operators can swap over, after all the customers would want
to be following the driver.

Station staff probably were requested to attend, to assit the
passengers. In the past during a stock and crew, especially at an
unusual location send station staff to make sure that the Train
Operator doesn't go wandering off the long way round, causing a much
bigger delay!

Northern line near collision
 

On 14 Jun, 21:37, chunky munky wrote:
On Jun 14, 9:20 pm, "Clive D. W. Feather" c...@on-the-





train.demon.co.uk wrote:
In article .com,
Boltar writes

One wonders why the motorman didn't notice there was no signal at that
end of the platform.
You'd think he might have noticed something like that. What did he
do , see there was no signal at all and just thought "ooh , that must
mean green"?

Um, no signal *does* mean green. Unlit signal - not the same thing -
means red.

Having said that, I can't offhand think of any LU station that doesn't
have a starting signal at the end of the platform.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

There is a rumour that there was a Fixed Red Light but this was
"bagged" over. Dont know about the associated train stop but within
the past few months contractors working for Tube Lines have concreted
one over in error that caused delays to the train service.

Stations without station starters are Croxley (Southbound) and
Chesham, some others do have them a fair way out of the platform.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sounds like a good old fashioned misunderstanding - motorman thought
he had been told to take the train back south and assumed therefore it
was a valid movement and that he had been given permission to depart.

A similar incident happened a few years ago at somewhere like Euston,
told to reverse his train (via shunt move) he simply walked to the
opposite end cab and was already to head off wrong line - can't
remember what stopped him. As a result fixed reds were hurriedly
installed at all platform 'wrong' ends presumably with trainstops, but
before starting in other direction they must check the tripcock is
correctly primed, in this case it evidently wasn't.

There would seem to be a gap in driver training.

Rob