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Northern line near collision
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Christopher A.Lee wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:39:16 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote: On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Roland Perry wrote: In message .com, at 04:42:05 on Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Kev remarked: It seems odd that on reaching the HB platform he didn't think to turn back on the direction he had headed from the train in the Edgware platfom. How many times had this driver driven a train through Camden. I conclude that the driver thought he had been told to reverse. Is that possible? Is there a crossover he could have been heading for? Our survey (of Tubeprune's Northern line signalling diagrams): http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Ca...wn-lct5-10.gif Says yes - there's one just north of Mornington Crescent; does that fit with the description of the incident? If it was a shunting move to get him onto the correct route, this wouldn't be necessary. But if the driver thought he was turning that train and taking it south again, he might have been heading for the crossover. That isn't what he was told to do, but there could have been a communications breakdown. tom -- The idiots are winning. |
Northern line near collision
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, BRB Class 465 wrote:
On 15 Jun, 12:52, Roland Perry wrote: I conclude that the driver thought he had been told to reverse. It's possible, and there is a crossover at Mornington Crescent - though not accessible from Camden Town, something the driver should have known from line knowledge. No? I assume you mean the crossover between signals E29 and E31 shown he http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Ca...wn-lct5-10.gif What makes it not accessible? A genuine question - i know nothing about this stuff. If it can't be got to from Camden, where can it? tom -- The idiots are winning. |
Northern line near collision
On 15 Jun, 16:19, Tom Anderson wrote:
But if the driver thought he was turning that train and taking it south again, he might have been heading for the crossover. That isn't what he was told to do, but there could have been a communications breakdown. Like most incidents, this was a combination of errors - Driver given wrong route; Driver accepted wrong route; Driver set off in wrong direction. It's also worth remembering that two drivers were at fault (assuming that the driver given the wrong rout wasn't told to take it) - the driver who set off in the wrong direction was the driver who had swapped to the wrongly routed train. |
Northern line near collision
So many opinions, so few facts. Why don't we discuss how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? |
Northern line near collision
Tom Anderson wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, BRB Class 465 wrote: On 15 Jun, 12:52, Roland Perry wrote: I conclude that the driver thought he had been told to reverse. It's possible, and there is a crossover at Mornington Crescent - though not accessible from Camden Town, something the driver should have known from line knowledge. No? I assume you mean the crossover between signals E29 and E31 shown he http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Ca...wn-lct5-10.gif What makes it not accessible? A genuine question - i know nothing about this stuff. If it can't be got to from Camden, where can it? From a shunt manoeuvre from Mornington Crescent, I should think. From that diagram, you can see that there are no signals permitting wrong-way working except at the points controlling the crossover itself. There is also, as I discovered this afternoon, an unilluminated STOP sign (white letters on a red disc) on the left-hand tunnel wall at the south end of the High Barnet northbound platform at Camden Town. If the driver entered the rear cab by mistake, he must have been mightily confused. The main passageway linking the two northbound platforms is straight and level. As you enter the High Barnet platform from the passageway, the starter repeater on the platform is clearly visible. Even if he had, for some reason, used the small passageway at the southern end of the platforms which is full of steps and bends, he should immediately have recognised that he was at the wrong end of the train. The High Barnet platform is a short one, and the rear set of passenger doors do not open there. He would have had to squeeze past those en route to the rear cab. -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Northern line near collision
"Tom Anderson" wrote in message h.li... On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, BRB Class 465 wrote: On 15 Jun, 12:52, Roland Perry wrote: I conclude that the driver thought he had been told to reverse. It's possible, and there is a crossover at Mornington Crescent - though not accessible from Camden Town, something the driver should have known from line knowledge. No? I assume you mean the crossover between signals E29 and E31 shown he http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Ca...wn-lct5-10.gif What makes it not accessible? A genuine question - i know nothing about this stuff. If it can't be got to from Camden, where can it? That crossover allows trains to go Camden Town SB - Mornington Crescent SB (reverse) - Camden Town NB. It also allows Mornington Crescent NB - Signal E4 (reverse) - Mornington Crescent SB. Although physically possible, there are no signals allowing a move from Camden Town NB - Mornington Crescent SB via that crossover. Peter Smyth |
Northern line near collision
On 15 Jun, 18:08, "Richard J." wrote:
From a shunt manoeuvre from Mornington Crescent, I should think. From that diagram, you can see that there are no signals permitting wrong-way working except at the points controlling the crossover itself. Arrangements for reversing at Mornington Crescent are as follows:- Reversing north to south:- Detrain customers and close the doors (there is currently no Limit of Shunt board). When signal E2 clears, proceed but DO NO GO PAST signal E4. Shut down, fully secure and change ends. When shunt signal E29 clears proceed over crossover into the southbound platform. Reversing south to North:- Detrain customers and close the doors in the platform. Shut down, fully secure and station starting signal E3 clears, proceed northbound over crossover. BRB Class 465. |
Northern line near collision
On 15 Jun, 12:42, Kev wrote:
Then that is really scarey that a highly professional, well paid driver can't follow the simple signs that all the rest of us have to follow. Isn't the driver responsible for the safety of the passenger or does that only extend from the train to the platform where somebody else is responsible for evacuation in an emergency. (Snipped Text above) The driver made a mistake because he is a human, like you (maybe) and I. Unfortunately mistakes are made and just becuase his job is more safety critical role does not reduce the fact that he is going to make a mistake. The best they can do is find out what lead the driver to make the mistake and try and prevent it in the future. How do your comments really help? |
Northern line near collision
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 16:19:01 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote: On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Christopher A.Lee wrote: On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:39:16 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote: On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Roland Perry wrote: In message .com, at 04:42:05 on Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Kev remarked: It seems odd that on reaching the HB platform he didn't think to turn back on the direction he had headed from the train in the Edgware platfom. How many times had this driver driven a train through Camden. I conclude that the driver thought he had been told to reverse. Is that possible? Is there a crossover he could have been heading for? Our survey (of Tubeprune's Northern line signalling diagrams): http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Ca...wn-lct5-10.gif Says yes - there's one just north of Mornington Crescent; does that fit with the description of the incident? If it was a shunting move to get him onto the correct route, this wouldn't be necessary. But if the driver thought he was turning that train and taking it south again, he might have been heading for the crossover. That isn't what he was told to do, but there could have been a communications breakdown. Shouldn't either have these have required a wrong line order? tom |
Northern line near collision
On Jun 15, 4:00 pm, Christopher A.Lee wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:39:16 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote: On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Roland Perry wrote: In message .com, at 04:42:05 on Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Kev remarked: It seems odd that on reaching the HB platform he didn't think to turn back on the direction he had headed from the train in the Edgware platfom. How many times had this driver driven a train through Camden. Isn't it simpler than that? 1) The drivers switched trains, and unless they both left them in some nondirectional state with red lights at both ends, the new driver would have had to reverse the trains "direction" in that respect. 2) The driver's end of the platforms have either CCTV monitors or large mirrors. These are very easy to recognise. Plus, the guy is a Northern line driver, and so presumably knows the whole thing like the back of his hand. Any explanation which involves him not being sure where he was strikes me as highly dubious. I conclude that the driver thought he had been told to reverse. Is that possible? Is there a crossover he could have been heading for? Our survey (of Tubeprune's Northern line signalling diagrams): http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Ca...wn-lct5-10.gif Says yes - there's one just north of Mornington Crescent; does that fit with the description of the incident? If it was a shunting move to get him onto the correct route, this wouldn't be necessary. Both trains would have to reverse through the junction and wait for the correct routes. But the story is the were taking the simpler option. to swap the crew and passengers between each train. After which they would both have continues each others' journeys.- They wouldn't though, would they. They'd be continuing their own journey. That is, driver due to end up at Edgware goes into the Barnet platform, so swaps trains so that he will still end up in Edgware, and vice versa. That would make sense. If the driver thought he was meant to reverse the train to get back to the correct route, there would be no reason for the drivers to swap trains. |
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