seeing the other's view
 

About time too!! It's not just cyclists who can benefit from this
opportunity, other road users should take the chance to have a look.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6240140.stm

Lorries highlight cycling danger

The dangers posed by lorries to cyclists and pedestrians are to be
highlighted in a road safety event.

Two lorries will be parked in Trafalgar Square, central London, to allow
other road users to see first hand how limited a lorry driver's vision is.

Metropolitan Police figures show that in 2006 nine cyclists were killed in
London in accidents involving lorries.

The two-day event this week follows a campaign launched in March urging
lorry drivers to look out for cyclists.

Ch Insp Mark Bird said: "Lots of people cycle in London and I'd encourage
people to come along and see first hand just how easy the cause of these
types of collisions can be and how easily avoidable they are.

"I have witnessed first hand the devastating affects that losing a loved one
or family member can have, and we are determined to do all we can to reduce
the risks to cyclists, and all road users."

In 2006 19 cyclists were killed in collisions - nine of which involved a
goods vehicle.

The year before 21 cyclists were killed, nine involved lorries and in 2004
four of eight accidents in which cyclists were killed involved lorries.

seeing the other's view
 

Brimstone wrote:


The year before 21 cyclists were killed, nine involved lorries and in 2004
four of eight accidents in which cyclists were killed involved lorries.




To get a balance here we need to know how many lorry drivers were killed
by cyclists in the same period. :-)

seeing the other's view
 

Brimstone wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6240140.stm

Lorries highlight cycling danger

The dangers posed by lorries to cyclists and pedestrians are to be
highlighted in a road safety event.
Two lorries will be parked in Trafalgar Square, central London, to allow
other road users to see first hand how limited a lorry driver's vision is.
Metropolitan Police figures show that in 2006 nine cyclists were killed in
London in accidents involving lorries.
The two-day event this week follows a campaign launched in March urging
lorry drivers to look out for cyclists.
Ch Insp Mark Bird said: "Lots of people cycle in London and I'd encourage
people to come along and see first hand just how easy the cause of these
types of collisions can be and how easily avoidable they are.
"I have witnessed first hand the devastating affects that losing a loved one
or family member can have, and we are determined to do all we can to reduce
the risks to cyclists, and all road users."
In 2006 19 cyclists were killed in collisions - nine of which involved a
goods vehicle.
The year before 21 cyclists were killed, nine involved lorries and in 2004
four of eight accidents in which cyclists were killed involved lorries.

About time too!! It's not just cyclists who can benefit from this
opportunity, other road users should take the chance to have a look.

A good suggestion, but I think that drivers of motor vehicles fitted
with mirrors are *mostly* already aware of the concept of "blind
spots", etc. The worst risk to cyclists occurs whilst undertaking a
left-turning lorry. If the decision to turn left is made late, the
undertaking cyclist may not be in a position to see when the lorry's
indicators are switched on (all the more reason not to undertake, of
course).

Seen those signs on some lorries: "If you can't see my mirrors, I
can't see you!"?

seeing the other's view
 

In article , NM says...
Brimstone wrote:


The year before 21 cyclists were killed, nine involved lorries and in 2004
four of eight accidents in which cyclists were killed involved lorries.




To get a balance here we need to know how many lorry drivers were killed
by cyclists in the same period. :-)

No idea but I suspect a few had a cardio episode from cycling.

--
Conor

Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright
until you hear them speak.........

seeing the other's view
 

Large HGVs are designed for motorways not the urban environment where
they can be routinely seen to mount pavements and generally fail to
fit into the road space provided.

The RHA is for ever bleating on about 95% of goods being moved by road
but then their competitors would never be allowed to get away with the
**** HGVs do so it's hardly surprising is it.

At every level the aviation and rail industry surpasses the HGV
industry on safety reliability and general adherence to the rules and
a fat lot of good it does them too, when they're undercut on price by
a bunch of cowboys working ninety hours a week on overloaded badly
maintained lorries.

seeing the other's view
 

allan tracy wrote:
Large HGVs are designed for motorways not the urban environment where
they can be routinely seen to mount pavements and generally fail to
fit into the road space provided.

The RHA is for ever bleating on about 95% of goods being moved by road
but then their competitors would never be allowed to get away with the
**** HGVs do so it's hardly surprising is it.

At every level the aviation and rail industry surpasses the HGV
industry on safety reliability and general adherence to the rules and
a fat lot of good it does them too, when they're undercut on price by
a bunch of cowboys working ninety hours a week on overloaded badly
maintained lorries.

What has this got to do with making other road users aware of the limited
sightlines from the driving seat of a lorry?

seeing the other's view
 

allan tracy wrote:


At every level the aviation and rail industry surpasses the HGV
industry on safety reliability and general adherence to the rules and
a fat lot of good it does them too, when they're undercut on price by
a bunch of cowboys working ninety hours a week on overloaded badly
maintained lorries.

What about the vast majority of the time when they are undercut by an
industry working within the law using well maintained lorries (as any
successful haulier needs to do to remain in business). If rail was so
good then the business would flow it's way but in spite of massive
subsidies rail doen't even enter the picture, possibly 1950's mentality,
lack of flexability and **** poor customer satisfaction can be the root
causes of their ineptitude.

seeing the other's view
 

What has this got to do with making other road users aware of the limited
sightlines from the driving seat of a lorry?

My point precisely, they're just not fit to be used in an urban
environment and in any other industry wouldn't be allowed to.

seeing the other's view
 

allan tracy wrote:
What has this got to do with making other road users aware of the limited
sightlines from the driving seat of a lorry?

My point precisely, they're just not fit to be used in an urban
environment and in any other industry wouldn't be allowed to.


So how would you see urban deliveries? A rail head at every supermarket
and high street perhaps?

seeing the other's view
 

NM wrote:
allan tracy wrote:


At every level the aviation and rail industry surpasses the HGV
industry on safety reliability and general adherence to the rules and
a fat lot of good it does them too, when they're undercut on price by
a bunch of cowboys working ninety hours a week on overloaded badly
maintained lorries.

What about the vast majority of the time when they are undercut by an
industry working within the law using well maintained lorries (as any
successful haulier needs to do to remain in business). If rail was so
good then the business would flow it's way but in spite of massive
subsidies rail doen't even enter the picture, possibly 1950's
mentality, lack of flexability and **** poor customer satisfaction
can be the root causes of their ineptitude.

Railborne freight receives no subsidy, unlike lorries.

What were you saying about 1950s mentality?

seeing the other's view
 

On Tue, 26 Jun 2007, NM wrote:

allan tracy wrote:

What has this got to do with making other road users aware of the
limited sightlines from the driving seat of a lorry?

My point precisely, they're just not fit to be used in an urban
environment and in any other industry wouldn't be allowed to.

So how would you see urban deliveries? A rail head at every supermarket
and high street perhaps?

Zeppelins.

Duh.

tom

--
Think logical, act incremental

seeing the other's view
 

NM wrote:
allan tracy wrote:
What has this got to do with making other road users aware of the
limited sightlines from the driving seat of a lorry?

My point precisely, they're just not fit to be used in an urban
environment and in any other industry wouldn't be allowed to.


So how would you see urban deliveries? A rail head at every
supermarket and high street perhaps?

Why not?

seeing the other's view
 

Brimstone wrote:
NM wrote:
allan tracy wrote:
What has this got to do with making other road users aware of the
limited sightlines from the driving seat of a lorry?
My point precisely, they're just not fit to be used in an urban
environment and in any other industry wouldn't be allowed to.


So how would you see urban deliveries? A rail head at every
supermarket and high street perhaps?

Why not?


Been tried in the fifties, didn't work then, won't work now.

seeing the other's view
 

Brimstone wrote:


Railborne freight receives no subsidy, unlike lorries.



Where exactly do I apply for my lorry subsidy?

seeing the other's view
 

"NM" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:
NM wrote:
allan tracy wrote:
What has this got to do with making other road users aware of the
limited sightlines from the driving seat of a lorry?
My point precisely, they're just not fit to be used in an urban
environment and in any other industry wouldn't be allowed to.


So how would you see urban deliveries? A rail head at every
supermarket and high street perhaps?

Why not?
Been tried in the fifties, didn't work then, won't work now.

It's a different world now. Everything is different.

You were saying about the fifties mentality?

seeing the other's view
 

"NM" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:


Railborne freight receives no subsidy, unlike lorries.



Where exactly do I apply for my lorry subsidy?

It's provided automatically, without application.

seeing the other's view
 

Railborne freight receives no subsidy, unlike lorries.

Where exactly do I apply for my lorry subsidy?

Go sniff the hard shoulder because that's about as much as your taxes
run to.

seeing the other's view
 

Brimstone wrote:
"NM" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:
NM wrote:
allan tracy wrote:
What has this got to do with making other road users aware of the
limited sightlines from the driving seat of a lorry?
My point precisely, they're just not fit to be used in an urban
environment and in any other industry wouldn't be allowed to.


So how would you see urban deliveries? A rail head at every
supermarket and high street perhaps?
Why not?
Been tried in the fifties, didn't work then, won't work now.

It's a different world now. Everything is different.

You were saying about the fifties mentality?


see above

seeing the other's view
 

Brimstone wrote:
"NM" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:

Railborne freight receives no subsidy, unlike lorries.


Where exactly do I apply for my lorry subsidy?

It's provided automatically, without application.


In your mind perhaps, dream on, don't let reality get in the way.

seeing the other's view
 

seeing the other's view
 

What about the vast majority of the time when they are undercut by an
industry working within the law using well maintained lorries (as any
successful haulier needs to do to remain in business). If rail was so
good then the business would flow it's way

.... well safety never was a good selling point.

but in spite of massive
subsidies rail doen't even enter the picture,

.... no subsidy for railfreight.

possibly 1950's mentality,
lack of flexability and **** poor customer satisfaction can be the root
causes of their ineptitude.

.... maybe a complete highway network provided at a cost way beyond
anything HGV taxes run to has something to do with it.

Although railfreight has been growing for the last ten years mainly
due to the failure of the road system to deliver reliability. ASDA,
Morrisons, Tesco and Sainsburys have been turning to rail increasingly
for the long stuff.

In fact, the only major loss of custom has been the Post Office even
then not to road but air. Mind you we all know, judging by the balance
sheet, that Post Office management have been well away on the funny
stuff for some time now.

seeing the other's view
 

"NM" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:
"NM" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:

Railborne freight receives no subsidy, unlike lorries.


Where exactly do I apply for my lorry subsidy?

It's provided automatically, without application.
In your mind perhaps, dream on, don't let reality get in the way.

You've obviously forgotton about the rate of VED on lorries when the present
government came into power and what it is now?

seeing the other's view
 

"NM" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Railborne freight receives no subsidy, unlike lorries.
Where exactly do I apply for my lorry subsidy?

Go sniff the hard shoulder because that's about as much as your taxes
run to.


Utter crap.

Good to see that 1950s mentality is still in full slow.

seeing the other's view
 

Brimstone wrote:
"NM" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:
"NM" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:

Railborne freight receives no subsidy, unlike lorries.

Where exactly do I apply for my lorry subsidy?
It's provided automatically, without application.
In your mind perhaps, dream on, don't let reality get in the way.

You've obviously forgotton about the rate of VED on lorries when the present
government came into power and what it is now?


No I havn't, I just realise thet the total amount collected by ved and
fuel tax is more than three times the amount spent on the roads. If my
truck is being subsidised where are the funds coming from, because it
isn't central government?

seeing the other's view
 

On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 18:11:44 +0100, "Brimstone"
wrote:

So how would you see urban deliveries? A rail head at every
supermarket and high street perhaps?

Why not?

Completely unrealistic. However, there may be some mileage in using a
larger number of smaller vehicles for local distribution, be that from
rail or road.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

seeing the other's view
 

seeing the other's view
 

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 18:11:44 +0100, "Brimstone"
wrote:

So how would you see urban deliveries? A rail head at every
supermarket and high street perhaps?

Why not?

Completely unrealistic.

Why?

However, there may be some mileage in using a
larger number of smaller vehicles for local distribution, be that from
rail or road.

Quite.

seeing the other's view
 

"NM" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:
"NM" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:
"NM" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:

Railborne freight receives no subsidy, unlike lorries.

Where exactly do I apply for my lorry subsidy?
It's provided automatically, without application.
In your mind perhaps, dream on, don't let reality get in the way.

You've obviously forgotton about the rate of VED on lorries when the
present government came into power and what it is now?
No I havn't, I just realise thet the total amount collected by ved and
fuel tax is more than three times the amount spent on the roads.

Which fluctuates according to the number of vehicle in use on the road and
may go down as well as up. Until late 2006 Fuel Duty had not been increased
for about three years thus giving a reduction.

If my truck is being subsidised where are the funds coming from, because
it isn't central government?

Evidence?

seeing the other's view
 

On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 12:31:49 +0100,
JNugent wrote:
Brimstone wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6240140.stm

About time too!! It's not just cyclists who can benefit from this
opportunity, other road users should take the chance to have a look.

A good suggestion, but I think that drivers of motor vehicles fitted
with mirrors are *mostly* already aware of the concept of "blind
spots", etc. The worst risk to cyclists occurs whilst undertaking a
left-turning lorry. If the decision to turn left is made late, the
undertaking cyclist may not be in a position to see when the lorry's
indicators are switched on (all the more reason not to undertake, of
course).

And sometimes large vehicles don't signal at all despite their road
positioning suggesting they're not turning.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/bus/bus.mpg

and if you want to view it frame by frame then it's at
http://www.woodall.me.uk/bus/

Unfortuately, I forgot to charge the batteries in my camera last night
otherwise today I'd have had a video of a bus making the same turn from
the LH lane today.

(If you watch carefully you can see that I do actually slow down and
wait behind the bus before it starts to move - I know that a lot of
buses turn here and I wasn't surprised that this one did)

And here is a classic left hook from a car
http://www.woodall.me.uk/journey/20070604/

Sorry, I don't have an mpg for that one.

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/

seeing the other's view
 

"NM" wrote in message
...
wrote:
What about the vast majority of the time when they are undercut by an
industry working within the law using well maintained lorries (as any
successful haulier needs to do to remain in business). If rail was so
good then the business would flow it's way

... well safety never was a good selling point.

but in spite of massive
subsidies rail doen't even enter the picture,

... no subsidy for railfreight.

possibly 1950's mentality,
lack of flexability and **** poor customer satisfaction can be the root
causes of their ineptitude.

... maybe a complete highway network provided at a cost way beyond
anything HGV taxes run to has something to do with it.

Utter bollox. I await the day all the road generated taxes are actually
spent on the road network,

Perhaps you should look at the cost of building the motorway and trunk road
network and the revenue from vehicles that were on the road at the time.

if this ever occured we would have a system second to none, instead the
surplus is frittered away on bottomless pits like the national trainset.

Although railfreight has been growing for the last ten years mainly
due to the failure of the road system to deliver reliability. ASDA,
Morrisons, Tesco and Sainsburys have been turning to rail increasingly
for the long stuff.

Dream on, they send a tiny amount by rail for the PR value. The
reliability of the road system is not an issue especially now with "just
in time" delivery systems. Been working for decades and improving with
time.

In fact, the only major loss of custom has been the Post Office even
then not to road but air. Mind you we all know, judging by the balance
sheet, that Post Office management have been well away on the funny
stuff for some time now.

I agree with the last bit, any business that has a permanant queue of
customers as long as it's open then still can't make a profit is doing
something badly wrong. The loss to air carriers is just failure to adapt,
bit like the railways really.

Say he, still putting his faith in a vehicle that hasn't changed
substantially for eighty or so years.

seeing the other's view
 

... maybe a complete highway network provided at a cost way beyond
anything HGV taxes run to has something to do with it.

Utter bollox. I await the day all the road generated taxes are actually
spent on the road network, if this ever occured we would have a system
second to none, instead the surplus is frittered away on bottomless pits
like the national trainset.


Ahh... naughty naughty do I detect a little sleight of hand here like
including all road generated taxes when we're only discussing HGV
generated taxes.

I own a car and nowhere does it explain that my petrol duty or road
fund licence is to be set at a level that can then provide spending on
accommodating HGVs.

seeing the other's view
 

allan tracy wrote:
... maybe a complete highway network provided at a cost way beyond
anything HGV taxes run to has something to do with it.
Utter bollox. I await the day all the road generated taxes are actually
spent on the road network, if this ever occured we would have a system
second to none, instead the surplus is frittered away on bottomless pits
like the national trainset.


Ahh... naughty naughty do I detect a little sleight of hand here like
including all road generated taxes when we're only discussing HGV
generated taxes.

I own a car and nowhere does it explain that my petrol duty or road
fund licence is to be set at a level that can then provide spending on
accommodating HGVs.

at 8 mpg and heavy ved there is no subsidy, if anything it's the other
way around.

seeing the other's view
 

"NM" wrote in message
...
allan tracy wrote:
... maybe a complete highway network provided at a cost way beyond
anything HGV taxes run to has something to do with it.
Utter bollox. I await the day all the road generated taxes are actually
spent on the road network, if this ever occured we would have a system
second to none, instead the surplus is frittered away on bottomless pits
like the national trainset.


Ahh... naughty naughty do I detect a little sleight of hand here like
including all road generated taxes when we're only discussing HGV
generated taxes.

I own a car and nowhere does it explain that my petrol duty or road
fund licence is to be set at a level that can then provide spending on
accommodating HGVs.

at 8 mpg and heavy ved there is no subsidy, if anything it's the other way
around.

Evidence?

Please don't simply state the anount of VED a lorry pays, it was reduced a
few years ago you may recall.

seeing the other's view
 

Brimstone wrote:
"NM" wrote in message
...
allan tracy wrote:
... maybe a complete highway network provided at a cost way beyond
anything HGV taxes run to has something to do with it.
Utter bollox. I await the day all the road generated taxes are actually
spent on the road network, if this ever occured we would have a system
second to none, instead the surplus is frittered away on bottomless pits
like the national trainset.

Ahh... naughty naughty do I detect a little sleight of hand here like
including all road generated taxes when we're only discussing HGV
generated taxes.

I own a car and nowhere does it explain that my petrol duty or road
fund licence is to be set at a level that can then provide spending on
accommodating HGVs.

at 8 mpg and heavy ved there is no subsidy, if anything it's the other way
around.

Evidence?

Please don't simply state the anount of VED a lorry pays, it was reduced a
few years ago you may recall.


Back of a fag packet calculations show annual tax take from HGV's about
10 billion pounds (VED + Fuel tax) expenditure on UK road system is ???

seeing the other's view
 

"NM" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:
"NM" wrote in message
...
allan tracy wrote:
... maybe a complete highway network provided at a cost way beyond
anything HGV taxes run to has something to do with it.
Utter bollox. I await the day all the road generated taxes are
actually
spent on the road network, if this ever occured we would have a system
second to none, instead the surplus is frittered away on bottomless
pits
like the national trainset.

Ahh... naughty naughty do I detect a little sleight of hand here like
including all road generated taxes when we're only discussing HGV
generated taxes.

I own a car and nowhere does it explain that my petrol duty or road
fund licence is to be set at a level that can then provide spending on
accommodating HGVs.

at 8 mpg and heavy ved there is no subsidy, if anything it's the other
way around.

Evidence?

Please don't simply state the anount of VED a lorry pays, it was reduced
a few years ago you may recall.
Back of a fag packet calculations show annual tax take from HGV's about 10
billion pounds (VED + Fuel tax) expenditure on UK road system is ???

When your working it out (not forgetting the cash spent by local authorities
on loal roads some of which comes from Counil Tax), don't forget all the
associated costs will you?

seeing the other's view
 

Brimstone wrote:
"NM" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:
"NM" wrote in message
...
allan tracy wrote:
... maybe a complete highway network provided at a cost way beyond
anything HGV taxes run to has something to do with it.
Utter bollox. I await the day all the road generated taxes are
actually
spent on the road network, if this ever occured we would have a system
second to none, instead the surplus is frittered away on bottomless
pits
like the national trainset.

Ahh... naughty naughty do I detect a little sleight of hand here like
including all road generated taxes when we're only discussing HGV
generated taxes.

I own a car and nowhere does it explain that my petrol duty or road
fund licence is to be set at a level that can then provide spending on
accommodating HGVs.

at 8 mpg and heavy ved there is no subsidy, if anything it's the other
way around.
Evidence?

Please don't simply state the anount of VED a lorry pays, it was reduced
a few years ago you may recall.
Back of a fag packet calculations show annual tax take from HGV's about 10
billion pounds (VED + Fuel tax) expenditure on UK road system is ???

When your working it out (not forgetting the cash spent by local authorities
on loal roads some of which comes from Counil Tax), don't forget all the
associated costs will you?


What makes you think I'm going to work it out.

seeing the other's view
 

On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 21:44:00 +0100, "Brimstone"
wrote:

Why?

Because it would cost a lot more than using road vehicles.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

seeing the other's view
 

"NM" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:
"NM" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:
"NM" wrote in message
...
allan tracy wrote:
... maybe a complete highway network provided at a cost way beyond
anything HGV taxes run to has something to do with it.
Utter bollox. I await the day all the road generated taxes are
actually
spent on the road network, if this ever occured we would have a
system
second to none, instead the surplus is frittered away on bottomless
pits
like the national trainset.

Ahh... naughty naughty do I detect a little sleight of hand here like
including all road generated taxes when we're only discussing HGV
generated taxes.

I own a car and nowhere does it explain that my petrol duty or road
fund licence is to be set at a level that can then provide spending
on
accommodating HGVs.

at 8 mpg and heavy ved there is no subsidy, if anything it's the other
way around.
Evidence?

Please don't simply state the anount of VED a lorry pays, it was
reduced a few years ago you may recall.
Back of a fag packet calculations show annual tax take from HGV's about
10 billion pounds (VED + Fuel tax) expenditure on UK road system is ???

When your working it out (not forgetting the cash spent by local
authorities on loal roads some of which comes from Counil Tax), don't
forget all the associated costs will you?
What makes you think I'm going to work it out.

You've already started, or like so many in road haulage, you give up when
things get difficult?

seeing the other's view
 

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 21:44:00 +0100, "Brimstone"
wrote:

Why?

Because it would cost a lot more than using road vehicles.

Evidence?

seeing the other's view
 

"Conor" wrote in message
...
In article , NM says...
Brimstone wrote:


The year before 21 cyclists were killed, nine involved lorries and in
2004
four of eight accidents in which cyclists were killed involved lorries.




To get a balance here we need to know how many lorry drivers were killed
by cyclists in the same period. :-)

No idea but I suspect a few had a cardio episode from cycling.

or maybe more had cardio episodes from not cycling ..