On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 17:44:32 +0100, Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote:

Well, if that happens, it will likely be after the transfer of the ELL to
the London Overground brand, and the restructuring of the other sub-surface
lines, so potentially orange and yellow/pink will both be available.

How will the sub-surface lines be restructured?

--
jhk

In article ,
Jarle H Knudsen wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 17:44:32 +0100, Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote:

Well, if that happens, it will likely be after the transfer of the ELL to
the London Overground brand, and the restructuring of the other sub-surface
lines, so potentially orange and yellow/pink will both be available.

How will the sub-surface lines be restructured?

There are many proposals; the last one I heard mooted was to

1) replace the circle and H&C with a 'tea-cup' service
(Hammersmith - Edgeware Road - once round the circle
and terminate at Edgeware Road, and the reverse route)

2) extend the Met to Barking

I suppose it might happen eventually, but don't hold your breath.

--
Shenanigans! Shenanigans! Best of 3!
-- Flash

"Mike Bristow" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jarle H Knudsen wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 17:44:32 +0100, Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote:

Well, if that happens, it will likely be after the transfer of the ELL
to
the London Overground brand, and the restructuring of the other
sub-surface
lines, so potentially orange and yellow/pink will both be available.

How will the sub-surface lines be restructured?

There are many proposals; the last one I heard mooted was to

1) replace the circle and H&C with a 'tea-cup' service
(Hammersmith - Edgeware Road - once round the circle
and terminate at Edgeware Road, and the reverse route)


That's just horrible.

You couldn't travel round the circle from, say, Baker Street to Notting Hill
Gate, but would need to go on a Westbound/Hammersmith bound train, change at
Edgware Road, then get on another (but entirely different)
Westbound/Hammersmith bound train at a much earlier stage of its route.

I'd find the concept confusing; God knows what a visitor would make of it.

BTN

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007, Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote:

"Mike Bristow" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jarle H Knudsen wrote:

How will the sub-surface lines be restructured?

There are many proposals; the last one I heard mooted was to

1) replace the circle and H&C with a 'tea-cup' service
(Hammersmith - Edgeware Road - once round the circle
and terminate at Edgeware Road, and the reverse route)

That's just horrible.

You couldn't travel round the circle from, say, Baker Street to Notting Hill
Gate, but would need to go on a Westbound/Hammersmith bound train, change at
Edgware Road, then get on another (but entirely different)
Westbound/Hammersmith bound train at a much earlier stage of its route.

Yes. It does strike me as quite silly. The only way it would make some
sense is if they also extended the Wimblewares beyond Edgware Road, say to
Aldgate (or maybe Moorgate); you could then get a train from anywhere
along the northern side of the Circle 'round the corner' to as far as High
Street Kensington. You still couldn't do Baker Street to, say, Gloucester
Road that way, but there wouldn't be many station pairs there for which
there wasn't a quicker route across town (touch wood). However, i don't
think there's the capacity for this.

The point of all this would be to make the service simpler to operate and
so more reliable. However, it's been pointed out (by Tubeprune) that it
also involves a lot more trains passing through the Praed Street junction,
so it's far from clear that it would actually improve reliability:

http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/SS...%20Upgrade.htm

The best solution is of course to transfer the Hammersmith branch of the
system to Crossrail!

I'd find the concept confusing; God knows what a visitor would make of it.

I think it's only confusing because you're used to something else: a
suitably-drawn map would make it pretty straightforward.

tom

--
The exact mechanics are unknown, but a recent sound file revealed the
process to go something like this: WONKA WONKA WONKA WONKA DEOO DEOO
DEOO DEOO WOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOW WONKA WONKA WONKA...

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...
On Mon, 23 Jul 2007, Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote:

"Mike Bristow" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jarle H Knudsen wrote:

How will the sub-surface lines be restructured?

There are many proposals; the last one I heard mooted was to

1) replace the circle and H&C with a 'tea-cup' service
(Hammersmith - Edgeware Road - once round the circle
and terminate at Edgeware Road, and the reverse route)

That's just horrible.

You couldn't travel round the circle from, say, Baker Street to Notting
Hill
Gate, but would need to go on a Westbound/Hammersmith bound train, change
at
Edgware Road, then get on another (but entirely different)
Westbound/Hammersmith bound train at a much earlier stage of its route.

Yes. It does strike me as quite silly. The only way it would make some
sense is if they also extended the Wimblewares beyond Edgware Road, say to
Aldgate (or maybe Moorgate); you could then get a train from anywhere
along the northern side of the Circle 'round the corner' to as far as High
Street Kensington. You still couldn't do Baker Street to, say, Gloucester
Road that way, but there wouldn't be many station pairs there for which
there wasn't a quicker route across town (touch wood). However, i don't
think there's the capacity for this.


I'd like to see Wimbleware made a second branch of the H & C (and possibly
also make Olympia a third branch). Seems like that would count for the right
amount of trains on the Western side of the circle, but without any
bi-directional nonsense in the Edgware Road and Paddington areas.

Another option would be for two circle services - Wimbledon-Wimbledon via
the loop, and maybe Barking-Barking. If the problem is they don't want
trains scheduled to go round and round continuously, then how about two or
more services that between them will allow continuous travel around it in
one direction or the other, as happens on the Chicago L loop.


I'd find the concept confusing; God knows what a visitor would make of
it.

I think it's only confusing because you're used to something else: a
suitably-drawn map would make it pretty straightforward.


Well, I've been used to the Victoria and Northern lines going North and
Southbound in the same directions between Euston and Kings X for years.
Being used to it doesn't make it any more straightforward, logical or
elegant.

BTN

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007, Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote:

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...
On Mon, 23 Jul 2007, Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote:

"Mike Bristow" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jarle H Knudsen wrote:

How will the sub-surface lines be restructured?

There are many proposals; the last one I heard mooted was to

1) replace the circle and H&C with a 'tea-cup' service
(Hammersmith - Edgeware Road - once round the circle
and terminate at Edgeware Road, and the reverse route)

That's just horrible.

You couldn't travel round the circle from, say, Baker Street to
Notting Hill Gate, but would need to go on a Westbound/Hammersmith
bound train, change at Edgware Road, then get on another (but entirely
different) Westbound/Hammersmith bound train at a much earlier stage
of its route.

Yes. It does strike me as quite silly. The only way it would make some
sense is if they also extended the Wimblewares beyond Edgware Road, say
to Aldgate (or maybe Moorgate); you could then get a train from
anywhere along the northern side of the Circle 'round the corner' to as
far as High Street Kensington.

I'd like to see Wimbleware made a second branch of the H & C (and possibly
also make Olympia a third branch).

Oh, so it's the Hammersmith, Wimbledon, Olympia & City line? I thought you
meant Hammersmith to Wimbledon for a minute there ...

I'm not sure where you could get the capacity for this from. At the
moment, there isn't room for Wimblewares to go east of Baker Street
Junction; how would you make some? You have to take away Met, Hammersmith
or Circle trains; it pretty much has to be Circles, and you'd need to
completely axe the Circle's 7.5 tph to make room for the Wimbleware's 6
tph, only leaving 1.5 for Olympias anyway. That seems a little drastic.
The tea-cup may get rid of the Circle, but least it maintains a vaguely
circular service.

On the subject, though - how about some suitable points, or even a siding,
at Baker Street, so Wimblewares could reverse there instead of Edgware
Road? That's be vastly more useful for passengers.

Seems like that would count for the right amount of trains on the
Western side of the circle, but without any bi-directional nonsense in
the Edgware Road and Paddington areas.

Stamp out all bi-directional nonsense!

Another option would be for two circle services - Wimbledon-Wimbledon
via the loop, and maybe Barking-Barking. If the problem is they don't
want trains scheduled to go round and round continuously, then how about
two or more services that between them will allow continuous travel
around it in one direction or the other, as happens on the Chicago L
loop.

I've seen that proposed for other hub-and-spoke systems too. Another, i
think better, alternative is to have routes which include half a circle on
the way across town; in London, we'd have four services: two from
Harrow-on-the-Hill to Earl's Court, via Aldgate and via Paddington, and
two from Hammersmith to Upminster, via Baker Street and via Victoria. Any
journey round the circle that doesn't involve going more than halfway
round (which nobody wants to do anyway) is then possible, with half the
trains at any point on the line going that way.

You would need to build new up-to-inner and vice versa curves on the
Hammersmith and Metropolitan branches, though!

tom

--
Ten years on, and there is still nothing like this bizarre tale of
biomechanical space madness.

Steve wrote:

On 22 Jul, 09:41, "John Salmon" wrote:

Interesting - thanks. On Wednesday I gave 'silver' as the colour for
the Jubilee line and this was 'correct', although I see it's
officially 'light grey'.

It's disappointing that it's officially recorded as light grey - given
that the line was named in honour of Her Majesty's Silver Jubilee,
it's fairly obvious what the intent was when choosing the colour. The
fact that it was arguably the best available colour for contrast with
all existing lines was serendipity.

At the time I am sure that I heard that the choice was driven by the
very restricted range of colours available (then?) for enamel signs.

I don't recollect the silver of the Jubilee ever being mentioned in
connection with the line colour.

Cheers,
John

I think a good line would be across south London to Heathrow. This
line, which I call the Charlton-Heston Line, would be coloured deep
purple.

Another line from Croydon to the city (the Shirley-Temple Line) would
be coloured black, and the Northern changed to cyan.

Alan

In message . com,
Offramp writes
I think a good line would be across south London to Heathrow. This
line, which I call the Charlton-Heston Line, would be coloured deep
purple.

Another line from Croydon to the city (the Shirley-Temple Line) would
be coloured black, and the Northern changed to cyan.

Alan


I think the line from Croydon to the city should be strangled
at birth ...
--
Jane
British OO, American and Australian HO, and DCC in the garden
http://www.yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk/railway/railway.html

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
.li...
On Mon, 23 Jul 2007, Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote:

Yes. It does strike me as quite silly. The only way it would make some
sense is if they also extended the Wimblewares beyond Edgware Road, say
to Aldgate (or maybe Moorgate); you could then get a train from anywhere
along the northern side of the Circle 'round the corner' to as far as
High Street Kensington.

I'd like to see Wimbleware made a second branch of the H & C (and
possibly
also make Olympia a third branch).

Oh, so it's the Hammersmith, Wimbledon, Olympia & City line? I thought you
meant Hammersmith to Wimbledon for a minute there ...

I'm not sure where you could get the capacity for this from. At the
moment, there isn't room for Wimblewares to go east of Baker Street
Junction; how would you make some? You have to take away Met, Hammersmith
or Circle trains; it pretty much has to be Circles, and you'd need to
completely axe the Circle's 7.5 tph to make room for the Wimbleware's 6
tph, only leaving 1.5 for Olympias anyway. That seems a little drastic.
The tea-cup may get rid of the Circle, but least it maintains a vaguely
circular service.


How about scrapping the circle as it is, scrapping the Olympia shuttle, and
running Olympia-Olympia via the circle instead?

And maybe fill in the missing SW corner of the circle by running a few H&C
trains to South Ken or Gloucester Road.


On the subject, though - how about some suitable points, or even a siding,
at Baker Street, so Wimblewares could reverse there instead of Edgware
Road? That's be vastly more useful for passengers.


Indeed.

Or what about a Baker Street curve, so that trains can run from Western side
of the circle on to the Met proper? I guess this would require extensive
rebuilding at Baker Street, as it would be way too tight to curve into the
area occupied by the existing met platforms.


You would need to build new up-to-inner and vice versa curves on the
Hammersmith and Metropolitan branches, though!


Exactly, and I'm pretty sure building new infrastructure on cut'n'cover
lines in Central London doesn't come cheap these days!

BTN