At the junction of Swandon Way and the east end of Smugglers Way, I believe
the traffic engineers have screwed up the signs which you see when
approaching from the east. The left hand lane has its own slip road for
turning left (which isn't relevant). The right hand lane has its own traffic
light with red, amber and green right arrow, and a blue forced right turn
sign beneath. Next to this is a light for the centre two lanes, which has a
normal red-amber-green with a banned *left* turn sign beneath - I believe
this is supposed to be a red-amber-green forward arrow with blue
forward-only arrow beneath. There is no physical barrier between the
right-hand lane and the other lanes, although the right hand lane tarmac
bears a right-turn arrow and the central lane has a forward arrow.

Aerial phot here
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=...2009&encType=1

In the longest traffic light phase, you have a red light over the
force-right turn sign, and a green light above the banned left turn sign.
This means that if you want to turn right, you can either obey the red light
over the forced right turn blue arrow, in which case you wait - or you can
obey the green light over the banned-left-turn sign, which means driving
down the middle lane, undertaking the queue of cars waiting to turn right,
cutting across several metres in front of them, and waiting for a gap in the
oncoming traffic and then turning right. It has just occurred to me that
this might cause you to come into conflict with a possible green man phase
for pedestrians crossing Smugglers Way... or might not, but there are few
pedestrians here.

So, is it legal for someone turning right to obey the green light over the
banned left turn sign and ignore the red light over the forced right turn
sign? The fact that you are turning right from a lane with a forward arrow
on the tarmac cannot in itself be illegal, because junctions with
*part-time* right turn bans usually have a forward arrow painted on the
rightmost lane, and you ignore this road marking whenever you legally turn
right. Or could the police nab you for dangerous driving anyway?

John Rowland wrote:
At the junction of Swandon Way and the east end of Smugglers Way, I
believe the traffic engineers have screwed up the signs which you see
when approaching from the east. The left hand lane has its own slip
road for turning left (which isn't relevant). The right hand lane has
its own traffic light with red, amber and green right arrow, and a
blue forced right turn sign beneath. Next to this is a
light for the centre two lanes, which has a normal red-amber-green
with a banned *left* turn sign beneath - I believe this is supposed
to be a red-amber-green forward arrow with blue forward-only arrow
beneath. There is no physical barrier between the right-hand lane and
the other lanes, although the right hand lane tarmac bears a
right-turn arrow and the central lane has a forward arrow.

Aerial phot here
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=...2009&encType=1

In the longest traffic light phase, you have a red light over the
force-right turn sign, and a green light above the banned left turn
sign. This means that if you want to turn right, you can either obey
the red light over the forced right turn blue arrow, in which case you
wait - or you can obey the green light over the b
banned-left-turn sign, which means driving down the middle lane,
undertaking the queue of cars waiting to turn right, cutting across
several metres in front of them, and waiting for a gap in the oncoming
traffic and then turning right. It has just occurred to me
that this might cause you to come into conflict with a possible green
man phase for pedestrians crossing Smugglers Way... or might not, but
there are few pedestrians here.

So, is it legal for someone turning right to obey the green light
over the banned left turn sign and ignore the red light over the
forced right turn sign? The fact that you are turning right from a
lane with a forward arrow on the tarmac cannot in itself be illegal,
because junctions with *part-time* right turn bans usually have a
forward arrow painted on the rightmost lane, and you ignore this road
marking whenever you legally turn right. Or could the police nab you
for dangerous driving anyway?

If it's a full green light rather than a green arrow, then regulation
36(1)(d) of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002
says "the green signal shall indicate that vehicular traffic may proceed
beyond the stop line and proceed straight on or to the left or to the
right" (though the no-left-turn sign would override that.)

But this is contradicted by the red light above the right-turn sign.
The signal installation is clearly wrong and should be reported to TfL
Street Management. The green light should be a green arrow.

The police might well stop you if you attempted a right turn from the
middle lane, but you might win the subsequent court case in view of the
badly specified signals.

I believe that the arrows on the carriageway are only advisory. However,
is there a sign in advance of the junction showing the allocation of
lanes, like the one at http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/images/signs172.gif
? Someone told me that these have to be obeyed, but I can't find
anything in the regulations that says so.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Richard J. wrote:

I believe that the arrows on the carriageway are only advisory.
However, is there a sign in advance of the junction showing the
allocation of lanes, like the one at
http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/images/signs172.gif ? Someone told me
that these have to be obeyed, but I can't find anything in the
regulations that says so.

It seems unlikely that that particular one would have to be obeyed, since
these commonly appear on roads where the bus lane can also be used by taxis,
and it would seem unlikely that taxis would not be allowed to travel forward
in the left hand lane when they are allowed to use the bus lane.

On Jul 22, 1:55?pm, "John Rowland"
wrote:
Richard J. wrote:

I believe that the arrows on the carriageway are only advisory.
However, is there a sign in advance of the junction showing the
allocation of lanes, like the one at
http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/images/signs172.gif? Someone told me
that these have to be obeyed, but I can't find anything in the
regulations that says so.

It seems unlikely that that particular one would have to be obeyed, since
these commonly appear on roads where the bus lane can also be used by taxis,
and it would seem unlikely that taxis would not be allowed to travel forward
in the left hand lane when they are allowed to use the bus lane.

When I had a storage unit in Smugglers Way, this was a turn I had to
make very often!

Although I did not analyse it as carefully as John has done above, I
always thought there was something "wrong" about the traffic lights,
vis-a-vis the right-hand turn.

John, I think you are right: there would be nothing to stop you from
travelling beyond the stop line in the middle lane when the main light
was green, and then edging over to the right (effectively undertaking
the filter-queue there) and waiting for the right-hand turn light to
turn green. You might get a few hoots from the cars which have been
queueing patiently, but legally I don't think you would be doing
anything wrong.

Clearly, the lights need remedying, and the forward green light ought
to be replaced by a forward arrow light.

Marc.

wrote:

John, I think you are right: there would be nothing to stop you from
travelling beyond the stop line in the middle lane when the main light
was green, and then edging over to the right (effectively undertaking
the filter-queue there) and waiting for the right-hand turn light to
turn green.

Why wait for that? The green light gives you permission to turn right
immediately, so long as there is a gap in the oncoming traffic.

You might get a few hoots from the cars which have been
queueing patiently,

I do it often, and I never get hooted. After all, I'm not holding them up.
I'm just concerned that I might end up having an argument with the boys in
blue at an inconvenient time.

but legally I don't think you would be doing anything wrong.

Clearly, the lights need remedying, and the forward green light ought
to be replaced by a forward arrow light.

Bunch o' spoilports!

wrote:

Clearly, the lights need remedying, and the forward green light ought
to be replaced by a forward arrow light.

Marc and Richard,
I'll be there on Tuesday and I'll check if turning right traffic does indeed
conflict with a green pedestrian phase crossing Smugglers Way. If it does,
it's dangerous and I'll report it to the council. If it doesn't, I won't
report it and I'd rather no-one else did either. I spend a significant part
of my life staring at pointless red lights in filter lanes in the small
hours of the morning when there is no traffic or pedestrians within 200
metres, so this error by the traffic planners gives me great pleasure.

On Jul 22, 2:47?pm, "John Rowland"
wrote:
wrote:

John, I think you are right: there would be nothing to stop you from
travelling beyond the stop line in the middle lane when the main light
was green, and then edging over to the right (effectively undertaking
the filter-queue there) and waiting for the right-hand turn light to
turn green.

Why wait for that? The green light gives you permission to turn right
immediately, so long as there is a gap in the oncoming traffic.

You are right - yes you can turn as soon as it's safe to do so.

Marc.

John Rowland wrote:
At the junction of Swandon Way and the east end of Smugglers Way, I believe
the traffic engineers have screwed up the signs which you see when
approaching from the east. The left hand lane has its own slip road for
turning left (which isn't relevant). The right hand lane has its own traffic
light with red, amber and green right arrow, and a blue forced right turn
sign beneath. Next to this is a light for the centre two lanes, which has a
normal red-amber-green with a banned *left* turn sign beneath - I believe
this is supposed to be a red-amber-green forward arrow with blue
forward-only arrow beneath. There is no physical barrier between the
right-hand lane and the other lanes, although the right hand lane tarmac
bears a right-turn arrow and the central lane has a forward arrow.

Aerial phot here
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=...2009&encType=1

I see that as three lanes with a right turn green arrow on the pole at
the right, and a standard green light at the left. The 'no left turn' is
probably intended, but the 'must go right arrow' is wrong.

So, is it legal for someone turning right to obey the green light over the
banned left turn sign and ignore the red light over the forced right turn
sign?

It looks technically not legal for someone going straight ahead to
ignore the red light at the right of the carriageway. But it is such a
pig's ear that no prosecution should succeed at that junction.