Grit in the Oyster
 

http://www.silicon.com/publicsector/...9168037,00.htm

Of course this will mean the need for cyber gripping.

Grit in the Oyster
 

On 3 Aug, 08:59, Bob wrote:
http://www.silicon.com/publicsector/...9168037,00.htm

Of course this will mean the need for cyber gripping.

Why oh why is it assumed that everyone has a mobile ? And what happens
with a mobile ticket if your battery goes flat ?

Mrk Enderby

Grit in the Oyster
 

wrote:
On 3 Aug, 08:59, Bob wrote:
http://www.silicon.com/publicsector/...9168037,00.htm

Of course this will mean the need for cyber gripping.

Why oh why is it assumed that everyone has a mobile ? And what happens
with a mobile ticket if your battery goes flat ?

Mrk Enderby

You get re-charged.


--
Cheers for now,

John from Harrow, Middx

remove spamnocars to reply

Grit in the Oyster
 

In message .com, at
00:59:32 on Fri, 3 Aug 2007, Bob remarked:
http://www.silicon.com/publicsector/...9168037,00.htm

Of course this will mean the need for cyber gripping.

"Transport For London's Oyster card does not comply with Itso,
so Lynch will not be able to integrate his scheme with it.

Lynch said: "I decided, let's drop the card out of the concept.
Why not use a device which everyone already has - their phone?"

So are they suggesting everyone waves their phone screen at the
barriers, having fumbled around to retrieve a picture message with a
barcode on it? And will the phone then have its amount of credit updated
by SMS (I can't see how else it would work).
--
Roland Perry

Grit in the Oyster
 

"Bob" wrote in message
oups.com...
http://www.silicon.com/publicsector/...9168037,00.htm

Of course this will mean the need for cyber gripping.


Notice how its spun as a great idea by the TOC - all the recent franchises
(since SWT) were required to provide for smartcard ticketing. It doesn't
seem to make too much sense to go for unique products in different areas
though, does it. I reckon a number of these ideas will fail to take off, and
they'll come down in favour of ITSO, with Oyster becoming ITSO compatible
too. Of course if RFID chips are built into phones as a secondary function
that would be useful...

Paul

Grit in the Oyster
 

On Fri, 3 Aug 2007 09:49:25 +0100 someone who may be "Paul Scott"
wrote this:-

Notice how its spun as a great idea by the TOC - all the recent franchises
(since SWT) were required to provide for smartcard ticketing.

Common practice. A little while ago one of the electrical chains
started spinning that they were good people for taking away old
electrical goods. The spin fails to mention that this is a
requirement under WEEE. While this has been badly handled by the
incompetents in the DTI as far as small operations are concerned
they have got it about right for big business.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Grit in the Oyster
 

On Fri, 3 Aug 2007, Roland Perry wrote:

So are they suggesting everyone waves their phone screen at the
barriers, having fumbled around to retrieve a picture message with a
barcode on it? And will the phone then have its amount of credit updated
by SMS (I can't see how else it would work).

First tried this on the ftr (York) before the scrapped the entire machine
ticket system. It was fiddly, which makes it slow.

You could get an email of the barcode and print it out which was a lot
easier than faffing with your phone, but compared to non-contact (or even
the normal train mag-strip) cards, still slow to use.
--
Chris Johns

Grit in the Oyster
 

In message , at
12:45:50 on Fri, 3 Aug 2007, Chris Johns remarked:
So are they suggesting everyone waves their phone screen at the
barriers, having fumbled around to retrieve a picture message with a
barcode on it? And will the phone then have its amount of credit updated
by SMS (I can't see how else it would work).

First tried this on the ftr (York) before the scrapped the entire
machine ticket system. It was fiddly, which makes it slow.

You could get an email of the barcode and print it out which was a lot
easier than faffing with your phone, but compared to non-contact (or
even the normal train mag-strip) cards, still slow to use.

Chiltern are allegedly trialling a system like this for a subset of
their Advance Purchase tickets.
--
Roland Perry

Grit in the Oyster
 

On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 01:34:59 -0700, wrote:

And what happens with a mobile ticket if your battery goes flat ?

Chiltern have an FAQ page for their mobile phone ticketing:
http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/content.php?nID=165

"Q: What happens if my mobile battery goes flat before or during my
journey – or I forget / lose my phone?
A: Your mobile phone will be your 'ticket' so it is your
responsibility to look after it and have enough battery life for your
entire journey. However, our scanners will have a record of who is
expected on any particular train, so it's wise to carry additional ID
as back up.

Q: Do I need proof of identity (as well as my mobile) to get through
the barriers?
A: No. However, if you are unable to produce the correct barcode on
your phone, you may be allowed to pass if you are able to produce
additional ID."

Grit in the Oyster
 

Just to clarify, there are two separate technologies being mixed up
here.

The one that is already being used (eg on Chiltern) is for a bar code
to be sent to your mobile phone. This bar code will be read by a bar
code reader on the gateline or by a gripper with a hand-held bar code
reader. At the moment, for various reasons, this is really only
workable with pre-booked tickets so that, for example, if your battery
goes dead you are on a printed manifest that the on-train staff will
have.

The second technology will be to use a chip inside your mobile phone
which will take the place of (and remove the need for) a separate
piece of plastic called a smartcard. You will wave your phone over a
smartcard reader on the gateline in the same way that you wave a
smartcard. It doesn't matter if your battery goes flat during the
journey - the power to read the chip comes from the reader (just as
you don't have a battery in your Oyster card).

Grit in the Oyster
 

In message . com, at
06:58:50 on Fri, 3 Aug 2007, W14_Fishbourne
remarked:
The second technology will be to use a chip inside your mobile phone
which will take the place of (and remove the need for) a separate
piece of plastic called a smartcard. You will wave your phone over a
smartcard reader on the gateline in the same way that you wave a
smartcard. It doesn't matter if your battery goes flat during the
journey - the power to read the chip comes from the reader (just as
you don't have a battery in your Oyster card).

Does this mean you have to buy a new phone, or is the RFID embedded in a
new SIM (there was mention of Orange and SIMs earlier).

I'm still struggling to understand why this is so much better than
having the same chip in a bit of plastic in your wallet (I go out
without a phone more often than without a wallet) and thread
convergence if you are using a Railcard, you need to be carrying your
wallet anyway!
--
Roland Perry

Grit in the Oyster
 

On 3 Aug, 13:40, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
12:45:50 on Fri, 3 Aug 2007, Chris Johns remarked:

So are they suggesting everyone waves their phone screen at the
barriers, having fumbled around to retrieve a picture message with a
barcode on it? And will the phone then have its amount of credit updated
by SMS (I can't see how else it would work).

W14_Fishborne's useful post elsewhere on this thread clears up the
confusion of two separate mobile phone ticketing technologies.


First tried this on the ftr (York) before the scrapped the entire
machine ticket system. It was fiddly, which makes it slow.

You could get an email of the barcode and print it out which was a lot
easier than faffing with your phone, but compared to non-contact (or
even the normal train mag-strip) cards, still slow to use.

Chiltern are allegedly trialling a system like this for a subset of
their Advance Purchase tickets.

No allegedly about it. If you go to Marylebone station you'll see that
at least one automatic gate has been equipped with a bar code reader.
I can imagine that it's probably best not to line up behind someone
struggling to scan their mobile's barcode at such a gate though!

Grit in the Oyster
 

On Fri, 3 Aug 2007, Paul Scott wrote:

"Bob" wrote in message
oups.com...
http://www.silicon.com/publicsector/...9168037,00.htm

Of course if RFID chips are built into phones as a secondary function
that would be useful...

Could Bluetooth be used for this? A lot of phones have that.


tom

--
Standing on the shoulders of Google

Grit in the Oyster
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message . com, at
06:58:50 on Fri, 3 Aug 2007, W14_Fishbourne
remarked:
The second technology will be to use a chip inside your mobile phone
which will take the place of (and remove the need for) a separate
piece of plastic called a smartcard. You will wave your phone over a
smartcard reader on the gateline in the same way that you wave a
smartcard. It doesn't matter if your battery goes flat during the
journey - the power to read the chip comes from the reader (just as
you don't have a battery in your Oyster card).

Does this mean you have to buy a new phone,

Almost certainly, Yes

or is the RFID embedded in a new SIM (there was mention of Orange and SIMs
earlier).

I'm still struggling to understand why this is so much better than having
the same chip in a bit of plastic in your wallet (I go out without a phone
more often than without a wallet) and thread convergence if you are
using a Railcard, you need to be carrying your wallet anyway!

Because it's a solution looking for a problem. The mobile
phone companies are always looking at ways of making
extra money and this "(not so) micro payment using your
phone" is the next idea that they are trying to sell.

It seems that they have managed to sell the idea to a rail
company to help them market it.

But ISTM that none of the previous attempts to sell
electronic micro payments have been accepted by the
population, it will surprise me if this one is any different.

tim

Grit in the Oyster
 

On 3 Aug, 15:24, Roland Perry wrote:
In message . com, at
06:58:50 on Fri, 3 Aug 2007, W14_Fishbourne
remarked:

The second technology will be to use a chip inside your mobile phone
which will take the place of (and remove the need for) a separate
piece of plastic called a smartcard. You will wave your phone over a
smartcard reader on the gateline in the same way that you wave a
smartcard. It doesn't matter if your battery goes flat during the
journey - the power to read the chip comes from the reader (just as
you don't have a battery in your Oyster card).

Does this mean you have to buy a new phone, or is the RFID embedded in a
new SIM (there was mention of Orange and SIMs earlier).

I believe it'd be a component of the mobile phone itself - see this
link for information on a couple of Nokia models with RFID capability
in the shell of the phone:
http://www.rfid-weblog.com/50226711/...nokia_5140.php
or http://tinyurl.com/yttc3s

Of course an RFID chip need not be independent of the phone - they
could presumably be connected up so that information on the RFID could
be updated by the phone, so for example the credit in an RFID pay as
you go travel ticket (like an Oyster card) could be topped up over the
air. Of course the system could be arranged so that travel expenditure
was debited from the users mobile bill or mobile PAYG balance, without
the need for any such link. The number of various different methods
for how any such scheme might work are many.

I'd imagine that an RFID-enabled SIM might not work, as in many
mobiles the battery would present a barrier between the SIM and any
potential RFID reader in the 'outside world'.


I'm still struggling to understand why this is so much better than
having the same chip in a bit of plastic in your wallet (I go out
without a phone more often than without a wallet) and thread
convergence if you are using a Railcard, you need to be carrying your
wallet anyway!
--
Roland Perry

I share your scepticism.

The 'ticket via RFID embedded in mobile phone casing' idea is just an
extension of the concept of using RFID-in-mobile as a replacement for
cash, a kind of wave-and-pay embedded in a mobile (wave-and-pay being
the upcoming method of paying for small transactions using an RFID-
enabled credit/debit card without the need for a PIN, already in use
in the states).

I'd guess that logic is that a mobile is one item that there's a fair
guarantee that (many) people will have on their person much of the
time, which is a fair enough assumption.

However I'm not sure that people would be that willing to get their
mobile out to pay for small purchases at shops, especially if it was a
flashy new model - someone might pinch it! Likewise at a station -
especially given the advice (on signs and posters) warning people off
of using their mobiles when they get out of a station. Plus I'm not
too sure about any idea of using a mobile on automatic gates - they'd
be the constant clatter of mobiles being dropped and smashing up on
concrete floor as people lost their grip on them, especially at the
rush hour!

Grit in the Oyster
 

On 3 Aug, 16:40, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Fri, 3 Aug 2007, Paul Scott wrote:
"Bob" wrote in message
roups.com...
http://www.silicon.com/publicsector/...9168037,00.htm

Of course if RFID chips are built into phones as a secondary function
that would be useful...

Could Bluetooth be used for this? A lot of phones have that.

tom


I've heard that suggested and subsequently shot-down before - the
Bluetooth technology is apparently no good for such a data transaction.

Grit in the Oyster
 

Of course, the most practical solution might be to have a chip
embedded in your arm, as they do with many pets these days. Then, not
only is there no chance of you losing your ticket or leaving it at
home, but you also cannot fraudulently transfer it to anyone else.
Furthermore, if you ever got lost and insensible, they would know
where to return you. It could also be updated while you were having a
bath by passing the signal down the water pipe.

Grit in the Oyster
 

In message , at 16:43:11 on Fri, 3
Aug 2007, tim..... remarked:
Does this mean you have to buy a new phone,

Almost certainly, Yes

The average age of phones in our household is about three years (and we
don't have any plans to buy more than one new one a year, if that,
between the four of us). Another problem is that there'll only be a very
limited range of phones with the new gadget in to start with, so if
you've chosen one because of some other set of features you wanted [1]
you could well still not get an rfid.

[1] It amazes me that with several hundred models to choose from at any
one time, that we (in our household) find it's so easy to whittle the
list down to a handful, and then just one model, if you know what it is
you are looking for.
--
Roland Perry

Grit in the Oyster
 

On 3 Aug, 16:43, "tim....." wrote:
"Roland Perry" wrote:

(snip)

I'm still struggling to understand why this is so much better than having
the same chip in a bit of plastic in your wallet (I go out without a phone
more often than without a wallet) and thread convergence if you are
using a Railcard, you need to be carrying your wallet anyway!

Because it's a solution looking for a problem. The mobile
phone companies are always looking at ways of making
extra money and this "(not so) micro payment using your
phone" is the next idea that they are trying to sell.

It seems that they have managed to sell the idea to a rail
company to help them market it.

But ISTM that none of the previous attempts to sell
electronic micro payments have been accepted by the
population, it will surprise me if this one is any different.

tim

I'm also a sceptic (see my other posts on this thread) but there is a
whole new wave (excuse the pun) of micro-payments on the way... the
Barclaycard OnePulse card, to be launched this september in London,
will include wave-and-pay RFID technology for purchases under £10, as
well as Oyster card capability (the balance held in the virtual Oyster
purse will be separate from the wave-and-pay system).

Incidentally wave-and-pay would appear to be the generic term -
Visa calls it "Visa payWave":
(http://usa.visa.com/personal/cards/paywave/index.html)
and Barclays appear to call the technology "OneTouch".

The ThriftyScot article (first link below) says that the Royal Bank of
Scotland (owners of NatWest) and American Express plan cards using
this technology.

What will be interesting is how many retailers will have point-of-sale
machines that will be wave-and-pay capable. One part of me thinks that
many POS systems will be pretty new, given the recent shift over to
Chip and PIN cards - but that said perhaps many of these systems were
designed with expansion in mind.

I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that wave-and-pay will
gradually blossom and be a success (though I think I'll stick to cash,
I don't want my bank knowing all my movements and small purchases I
make!).

I'm more sceptical about wave-and-pay/RFID embedded into mobiles
though - a mobile is far more bulky that a card, it's less tolerant of
being dropped and it's more susceptible to being nicked

-----
For more on the Barclays OnePulse card see
http://www.thriftyscot.co.uk/Finance...edit-card.html
http://www.newsroom.barclays.co.uk/C...6&NewsAreaID=2
https://www.barclaycard.co.uk/barcla...istration.html

Grit in the Oyster
 

In message .com, at
08:59:17 on Fri, 3 Aug 2007, Mizter T remarked:
Of course the system could be arranged so that travel expenditure
was debited from the users mobile bill or mobile PAYG balance, without
the need for any such link. The number of various different methods
for how any such scheme might work are many.

Mr Virgin seems pretty implacable that my phone has a £100 a month
credit limit (despite my having a good credit record with both him and
everyone else over the years). Wouldn't even buy me a SOR to London :(

I'd imagine that an RFID-enabled SIM might not work, as in many
mobiles the battery would present a barrier between the SIM and any
potential RFID reader in the 'outside world'.

Yes, I had considered that, which is a shame because it would be a
better solution.
--
Roland Perry

Grit in the Oyster
 

In message . com, at
09:20:16 on Fri, 3 Aug 2007, W14_Fishbourne
remarked:
Of course, the most practical solution might be to have a chip
embedded in your arm, as they do with many pets these days.

I haven't got a pet embedded in my arm, but since yesterday there's some
sort of mosquito bite which is quite painful. Not recommended :)
--
Roland Perry

Grit in the Oyster
 

On 3 Aug, 17:20, W14_Fishbourne wrote:
Of course, the most practical solution might be to have a chip
embedded in your arm, as they do with many pets these days. Then, not
only is there no chance of you losing your ticket or leaving it at
home, but you also cannot fraudulently transfer it to anyone else.
Furthermore, if you ever got lost and insensible, they would know
where to return you. It could also be updated while you were having a
bath by passing the signal down the water pipe.

Sign me up.

One would hope that your serial number would be linked to the
government's national ID database (run by Capita perhaps), where
information would be shared with the US Dept. of Homeland Security as
well as Europol, for the purposes of combating terrorism, school
truancy and intoxicated high-jinx. After all, if you've got nothing to
hide...

"I am not a free man, I am a number"

Grit in the Oyster
 

In message .com, at
09:28:10 on Fri, 3 Aug 2007, Mizter T remarked:
I'm also a sceptic (see my other posts on this thread) but there is a
whole new wave (excuse the pun) of micro-payments on the way... the
Barclaycard OnePulse card, to be launched this september in London,
will include wave-and-pay RFID technology for purchases under £10, as
well as Oyster card capability (the balance held in the virtual Oyster
purse will be separate from the wave-and-pay system).

Incidentally wave-and-pay would appear to be the generic term -
Visa calls it "Visa payWave":
(http://usa.visa.com/personal/cards/paywave/index.html)
and Barclays appear to call the technology "OneTouch".

The ThriftyScot article (first link below) says that the Royal Bank of
Scotland (owners of NatWest) and American Express plan cards using
this technology.

I do see a troublesome few years ahead. Having finally got out of the
woods with every store trying to thrust loyalty cards at you (I'm sure
the schemes still exist, but most seem to have stopped actively
recruiting new shoppers), we'll soon have a wallet full of one-purpose
rfid cards.

They are converting the Amsterdam public transport to some sort of
Oyster-like system quite soon now. So less moaning about the problems of
finding a ticket machine there that'll take credit cards, but it's one
more bit of dedicated plastic to carry everywhere (and to add to the
Brussels metro carnet card, the Oyster, my Nottingham City transport bus
pass, at least one door key, and who knows what else). And not just
that, but each of those (apart from the door key) has its own billing
system, or its own bit of prepay cash sitting in limbo.

They say all the ATOC cards [or is it phones] are going to be compatible
with each other, but I wouldn't take bets on it.
--
Roland Perry

Grit in the Oyster
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 16:43:11 on Fri, 3 Aug
2007, tim..... remarked:
Does this mean you have to buy a new phone,

Almost certainly, Yes

The average age of phones in our household is about three years (and we
don't have any plans to buy more than one new one a year, if that, between
the four of us). Another problem is that there'll only be a very limited
range of phones with the new gadget in to start with, so if you've chosen
one because of some other set of features you wanted [1] you could well
still not get an rfid.

Adding new bits to a mobile buggers up the standby time.
And as longer standby time is the holy grail that the
networks keep demanding the extra bits don't happen
until everyone is sure that there is a need.

E.g. 10 years ago I worked for a Cambridge company whos
MD had just patented a way of integrating GPS into a phone
(you may know him?). Everyone thought that this was
going to be rolled out in a couple, of years - they are still
waiting.

tim

Grit in the Oyster
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message .com, at
09:28:10 on Fri, 3 Aug 2007, Mizter T remarked:
I'm also a sceptic (see my other posts on this thread) but there is a
whole new wave (excuse the pun) of micro-payments on the way... the
Barclaycard OnePulse card, to be launched this september in London,
will include wave-and-pay RFID technology for purchases under £10, as
well as Oyster card capability (the balance held in the virtual Oyster
purse will be separate from the wave-and-pay system).

Incidentally wave-and-pay would appear to be the generic term -
Visa calls it "Visa payWave":
(http://usa.visa.com/personal/cards/paywave/index.html)
and Barclays appear to call the technology "OneTouch".

The ThriftyScot article (first link below) says that the Royal Bank of
Scotland (owners of NatWest) and American Express plan cards using
this technology.

I do see a troublesome few years ahead. Having finally got out of the
woods with every store trying to thrust loyalty cards at you (I'm sure the
schemes still exist, but most seem to have stopped actively recruiting new
shoppers), we'll soon have a wallet full of one-purpose rfid cards.

They are converting the Amsterdam public transport to some sort of
Oyster-like system quite soon now. So less moaning about the problems of
finding a ticket machine there that'll take credit cards, but it's one
more bit of dedicated plastic to carry everywhere (and to add to the
Brussels metro carnet card, the Oyster, my Nottingham City transport bus
pass, at least one door key, and who knows what else). And not just that,
but each of those (apart from the door key) has its own billing system, or
its own bit of prepay cash sitting in limbo.

When I was in Portugal, I noticed that the small town of
Faro had Stored Value Cards for their buses.


They say all the ATOC cards [or is it phones] are going to be compatible
with each other, but I wouldn't take bets on it.

Being technically compatible and using the same stored
value may not be the same thing :-(

tim

Grit in the Oyster
 

On Aug 3, 7:59 pm, "tim....." wrote:


Being technically compatible and using the same stored
value may not be the same thing :-(

tim


For example, unless Transport for London wants to become a bank, with
all the regulatory implications of that, Oyster Pay As You Go will
never become available for use outside of London.

Grit in the Oyster
 

wrote:
On 3 Aug, 08:59, Bob wrote:
http://www.silicon.com/publicsector/...9168037,00.htm

Of course this will mean the need for cyber gripping.

Why oh why is it assumed that everyone has a mobile ? And what happens
with a mobile ticket if your battery goes flat ?

It's not much different to expecting people not to leave their wallet at
home, is it?

Grit in the Oyster
 

In message , at 19:47:45 on Fri, 3
Aug 2007, tim..... remarked:

Adding new bits to a mobile buggers up the standby time.
And as longer standby time is the holy grail that the
networks keep demanding the extra bits don't happen
until everyone is sure that there is a need.

E.g. 10 years ago I worked for a Cambridge company whos
MD had just patented a way of integrating GPS into a phone
(you may know him?).

It doesn't ring any bells I'm afraid.

Everyone thought that this was going to be rolled out in a couple, of
years - they are still waiting.

And I've even seen people claiming they were going to become
universal/mandatory.

What I think might be handy is something about the same size as the very
latest slimline phones, and which includes a chip which can mimic all
the different rfid smartcards (a bit like a universal TV remote), and
give a display of recent transactions or whatever. I'd pay twenty quid
for something like that.

Heh, no-one can patent that now...
--
Roland Perry

Grit in the Oyster
 

"tim....." wrote in message
...


Adding new bits to a mobile buggers up the standby time.
And as longer standby time is the holy grail that the
networks keep demanding the extra bits don't happen
until everyone is sure that there is a need.


Er (apart from space taken up) why would a separate but embedded rfid device
cause power problems? There doesn't seem to be much of a problem with the
standby time of an Oyster card... If the mobile is able to interrogate its
chip to check balance or history I would have thought consumption would be
trivial compared with most other important functions like ringing, calling,
texting etc...

Seriously though, what size is the actual device embedded in the card?
Perhaps a way of mounting it on say a watch strap, or bracelet or some such
might catch on...

Paul

Grit in the Oyster
 

In message , at 19:59:37 on Fri, 3
Aug 2007, tim..... remarked:
They say all the ATOC cards [or is it phones] are going to be compatible
with each other, but I wouldn't take bets on it.

Being technically compatible and using the same stored
value may not be the same thing :-(

That's a whole new can of worms, but are you suggesting one smartcard
could have the stored value from dozens of different TOCs upon it (and
debit the right one at various stages in a journey) rather than have one
set of "bank of ATOC" money on it?
--
Roland Perry

Grit in the Oyster
 

On 3 Aug, 20:11, W14_Fishbourne wrote:
On Aug 3, 7:59 pm, "tim....." wrote:



Being technically compatible and using the same stored
value may not be the same thing :-(

tim

For example, unless Transport for London wants to become a bank, with
all the regulatory implications of that, Oyster Pay As You Go will
never become available for use outside of London.

Hmm... I understand the basic argument - however one could argue the
same logic would apply to TOCs who issue smartcards that can be used
on other TOCs services - and an interchangeable smartcard system is
what the DfT are after, is it not? Unless any national smartcard
scheme is going to involve ATOC becoming a bank?

Additionally one couldn't just argue TfL were merely holding money as
part of the fares settlement procedures. After all, Oyster PAYG can
already be used on some National Rail routes in London, and in the new
year it'll be available for use on several more routes (routes that
don't currently have interavailable ticketing with the Underground).

I'm no lawyer but I'm far from convinced that sure any such concerns
aren't insurmountable.

Grit in the Oyster
 

On 3 Aug, 20:11, Dave Newt wrote:
wrote:
On 3 Aug, 08:59, Bob wrote:
http://www.silicon.com/publicsector/...9168037,00.htm

Of course this will mean the need for cyber gripping.

Why oh why is it assumed that everyone has a mobile ? And what happens
with a mobile ticket if your battery goes flat ?

It's not much different to expecting people not to leave their wallet at
home, is it?

My wallet doesn't go flat.

Well, it does, but that'd be my fault for expending it's charge at the
bar.

Anyway if you read elsewhere on this thread it would appear that RFID-
embedded-in-mobile-shell ticketing wouldn't necessarily require the
phone to have any battery power. In a simple implementation the
phone's casing is basically acting as if it were an RFID card.

Barcode-on-mobile ticketing does however require a turned-on mobile to
work.

Grit in the Oyster
 

On 3 Aug, 20:39, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"tim....." wrote in message

...



Adding new bits to a mobile buggers up the standby time.
And as longer standby time is the holy grail that the
networks keep demanding the extra bits don't happen
until everyone is sure that there is a need.

Er (apart from space taken up) why would a separate but embedded rfid device
cause power problems? There doesn't seem to be much of a problem with the
standby time of an Oyster card... If the mobile is able to interrogate its
chip to check balance or history I would have thought consumption would be
trivial compared with most other important functions like ringing, calling,
texting etc...

Seriously though, what size is the actual device embedded in the card?
Perhaps a way of mounting it on say a watch strap, or bracelet or some such
might catch on...

Paul


Basically, in a simple implementation, the shell/casing of the mobile
is an RFID card in another form.

I can however imagine there might be a desire for a more complex
integrated implementation where the mobile device was to the RFID
element - for example so one could receive things over the air that
were put on the RFID chip (e.g. topping up the PAYG credit balance
over the air for example). Such an implementation might require the
mobile device to have battery power.

I don't see a massive benefit of the simpler implementation (which
AIUI is all that anyone has really proposed at present) - though that
said it might be popular and handy, as people could notionally
dispense with carrying around a wallet/purse.

The latter implementation could lead to some innovative services, but
it could also just be a solution in search of a problem. It could also
get horrendously complicated, thus breaking that rather sensible rule
- keep it simple!

Grit in the Oyster
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message .com, at
09:28:10 on Fri, 3 Aug 2007, Mizter T remarked:
I'm also a sceptic (see my other posts on this thread) but there is a
whole new wave (excuse the pun) of micro-payments on the way... the
Barclaycard OnePulse card, to be launched this september in London,
will include wave-and-pay RFID technology for purchases under £10, as
well as Oyster card capability (the balance held in the virtual Oyster
purse will be separate from the wave-and-pay system).

Incidentally wave-and-pay would appear to be the generic term -
Visa calls it "Visa payWave":
(http://usa.visa.com/personal/cards/paywave/index.html)
and Barclays appear to call the technology "OneTouch".

The ThriftyScot article (first link below) says that the Royal Bank of
Scotland (owners of NatWest) and American Express plan cards using
this technology.

I do see a troublesome few years ahead. Having finally got out of the
woods with every store trying to thrust loyalty cards at you (I'm sure
the schemes still exist, but most seem to have stopped actively
recruiting new shoppers), we'll soon have a wallet full of one-purpose
rfid cards.

They are converting the Amsterdam public transport to some sort of
Oyster-like system quite soon now. So less moaning about the problems of
finding a ticket machine there that'll take credit cards, but it's one
more bit of dedicated plastic to carry everywhere

Though presumably that is the card that will - in theory - one day -
work on almost all public transport in the Netherlands (not sure about NS)?

(and to add to the
Brussels metro carnet card, the Oyster, my Nottingham City transport bus
pass, at least one door key, and who knows what else). And not just
that, but each of those (apart from the door key) has its own billing
system, or its own bit of prepay cash sitting in limbo.

They say all the ATOC cards [or is it phones] are going to be compatible
with each other, but I wouldn't take bets on it.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Grit in the Oyster
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 19:59:37 on Fri, 3 Aug
2007, tim..... remarked:
They say all the ATOC cards [or is it phones] are going to be compatible
with each other, but I wouldn't take bets on it.

Being technically compatible and using the same stored
value may not be the same thing :-(

That's a whole new can of worms, but are you suggesting one smartcard
could have the stored value from dozens of different TOCs upon it (and

No, just that one TOCs card would be useless at a different TOC
even though they were technically compatable, unless the issue of
funds sharing is resolved.

tim

Grit in the Oyster
 

Bob wrote:
http://www.silicon.com/publicsector/...9168037,00.htm

Of course this will mean the need for cyber gripping.

Interesting, in my experience of "ITSO-compatible" cards on buses in
Bradford, York (First) & Edinburgh (Lothian) is that they are
significantly slower and an inferior technology to Oyster.

Grit in the Oyster
 

On Fri, 3 Aug 2007 22:26:38 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:


"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 19:59:37 on Fri, 3 Aug
2007, tim..... remarked:
They say all the ATOC cards [or is it phones] are going to be compatible
with each other, but I wouldn't take bets on it.

Being technically compatible and using the same stored
value may not be the same thing :-(

That's a whole new can of worms, but are you suggesting one smartcard
could have the stored value from dozens of different TOCs upon it (and

No, just that one TOCs card would be useless at a different TOC
even though they were technically compatable, unless the issue of
funds sharing is resolved.

Eh? Surely you put cash on the card and it's irrelevant who added it or
who deducts it provided there are systems to reconcile the card and
distribute the payments due against travel undertaken?

I'm not terribly au fait with ITSO but I thought the whole point of it
was that any suitable technically compliant card could hold / recognise
the ITSO specification and associated "product profiles" for each TOC
and then deduct the most appropriate fare for the journey being
undertaken (given times, dates, origin / destination etc). Provided
readers in ticket machines, hand held devices and gates / validators
were all to the ITSO spec then they can read and write to any ITSO
compatible card.

I personally think the article that launched this thread is a load of
old fluff. Yes it's lovely to be oh so radical and different but the
TOCs have franchises commitments to get these schemes in and I can't see
anything other than a basic plain vanilla card / gate / validator / hand
held unit scheme being feasible within those timescales. You need
commonality and familiarity to get these schemes accepted by the public
and whether people like it or not Oyster is currently the most
"familiar" of any such product to most UK travellers. I would also
expect DfT to get a bit "concerned" if the TOCs were each heading off in
20 directions in their particular schemes to achieve smartcard
ticketing. Whatever South West Trains do by 2009 will be what sets the
benchmark for every other TOC.

You might get to mobile phone acceptance in due course but not as the
first step and certainly not with anything like bar code readers. FTR in
York put paid to that concept.

--
Paul C

Grit in the Oyster
 

DfT has mandated the ITSO standard for all TOC smartcard systems so
compatibility should be ensured. However, note that the primary
intention of ITSO is that you buy a ticket and load it onto your
smartcard before travelling (although the loading could, conceivably,
be done via the gateline card reader).

ITSO is not really intended for stored value from which the cost of
your journey is deducted, although it may appear for limited,
localised applications. First of all, it would require a third party
bank to administer any scheme (despite what non-lawyer above said - if
he's got a way round the legal situation he could make himself a
fortune), and each TOC would need to agree to accept that bank's
stored value. Secondly, trying to work out the correct fare for your
PAYG journey is difficult enough on London Underground, with a fairly
simple route and fares structure, never mind on National Rail with its
mass of different routes and fares. (If you want to know what I mean,
take a journey from Gunnersbury to Hanger Lane via Turnham Green,
Ealing Broadway, and North Acton. You won't have stepped outside zone
3 but just see what fare you get charged.)

Grit in the Oyster
 

"Bob" wrote in message
oups.com...
http://www.silicon.com/publicsector/...9168037,00.htm

Aren't Japan and/or Finland already employing such a technology with mobile
phones?

Grit in the Oyster
 

"W14_Fishbourne" wrote in message
ups.com...
Just to clarify, there are two separate technologies being mixed up
here.

The one that is already being used (eg on Chiltern) is for a bar code
to be sent to your mobile phone. This bar code will be read by a bar
code reader on the gateline or by a gripper with a hand-held bar code
reader. At the moment, for various reasons, this is really only
workable with pre-booked tickets so that, for example, if your battery
goes dead you are on a printed manifest that the on-train staff will
have.

I went to Birmingham and back on one of those tickets in February. I showed
the railway staff the ticket at Marylebone, but the gate staff looked
confused and appeared unsure on what to do. One of them eventually figured
out that you need a scanner to read this information, but they did not have
one to hand. So they sent somebody to get one, waving me through the gates
at the same time.

The conductor on the train to Birmingham had to attempt several reads on my
mobile with his scanner before getting the all clear, while the conductor
back to London simply looked at the text message and gave a nod.

Back in London, they also needed some time to figure out what to do before
actually coming up with a scanner.