Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

A suggestion from Jim Blake elow. Is it feasible?

http://www.hamhigh.co.uk/content/cam...2%3A52%3A78 0

Abandoned railway plan could be revived for Parkland Walk

09 August 2007
I WAS interested to read Ernie Nice's letter relating to the former
railway line between Alexandra Palace, Highgate and Finsbury Park. It
is indeed ridiculous that no-one in authority has taken seriously
proposals to revive this line in an effort to alleviate the appalling
traffic congestion - and poor public transport availability - in such
places as Muswell Hill and Crouch End.

What makes this perhaps the greatest blot on the history of London
Transport is the fact that the line should have become part of the
Northern Line in 1940, having originally been one of the Great
Northern Railway's suburban branches from King's Cross. Later
inherited by the London & North Eastern Railway, it was to become part
of an expanded Northern Line under London Transport's 1935-1940 New
Works Programme.

The Northern Line was extended in a new tunnel from its previous
Archway terminus, via a new tube station beneath the existing Highgate
station on the Finsbury Park to Alexandra Palace line, to East
Finchley in July 1939. Here it joined the branch from Finsbury Park,
which divided at Highgate - one section going via Muswell Hill to
Alexandra Palace, the other continuing to East Finchley and then on to
Finchley Central (originally called Church End) and High Barnet.

The branch to High Barnet from East Finchley was added to the Northern
Line in April 1940. A second branch that went to Edgware via Mill Hill
from Finchley Central (Church End) should also have been part of the
Northern Line, and was extended as far as Mill Hill East in May 1941
to serve the army barracks there.

Sadly, the rest of the scheme, that is the line from Finsbury Park to
Highgate and Alexandra Palace, which was also to have been connected
to the isolated Moorgate to Finsbury Park tube line (known as the
Northern City Line and eventually taken over by British Railways Great
Northern electric services in 1976), and the section from Mill Hill
East to Edgware, along with a new extension further out to Bushey
Heath, was held "in abeyance" during the war.

Although London Transport fully intended to complete the project (even
announcing completion dates for 1948/49), all uncompleted sections
were abandoned in the early 1950s - the line to Alexandra Palace still
being served by antiquated steam trains until finally closed in July
1954.

What makes all this particularly absurd is that so much had already
been carried out before the war forced it to be suspended. Over three
million pounds' worth of work - at 1939 values - had been done on the
uncompleted sections, and that from Finsbury Park to Alexandra Palace
was virtually complete.

For instance, connecting ramps had been built to link the Northern
City tube line at Drayton Park with the LNER line into a new high-
level station at Finsbury Park. Much of the structure of the two new
platforms and facade in Station Place had been erected - its rusting
steel girders remaining as an eyesore until demolished in 1973. Most
of the conductor rails and lineside cabling had been installed
throughout the branch to permit electric running - indeed sub-stations
to supply the current were built and fully equipped at Crouch Hill and
Muswell Hill.

Most important of all, the existing Highgate station was completely
rebuilt in modern London Transport style, with new platform buildings
between the tunnels beside Archway Road, and a new booking office
beneath them to serve the interconnecting tube platforms below (as it
still does). A brand new station at East Finchley was also built with
four platforms, the two outer ones for tube trains running from High
Barnet or Edgware (via Mill Hill) to Central London and onwards to
Morden, the two inner ones for trains from High Barnet to Moorgate via
the line through Highgate and Finsbury Park.

Today, of course, these platforms are used only for training, running
to or from the Northern Line's Highgate Depot, which is situated where
the branch from Finsbury Park divided to go to Alexandra Palace or on
to East Finchley and Highgate Barnet.

Ironically the new platform buildings at Highgate - built for tube
trains but never served by them - remain intact today and could easily
be brought back into use.

Whether as a light rail system (as suggested by the Muswell Hill Metro
Group) or as something more ambitious - for instance an extension of
Ken Livingstone's Overground network that could be connected via
Canonbury tunnel with the North and East London lines, obviously the
so-called Parkland Walk (which more resembled a dogs' toilet and a
wilderness of stinging nettles when I last visited it a few months
ago!) should be used to restore this vital railway link, which also
could easily co-exist with a footpath and much of the present wildlife
habitat.

JIM BLAKE

Hon Chairman, North London Transport Society

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Aug 10, 6:12 pm, Bob wrote:
A suggestion from Jim Blake elow. Is it feasible?

As with the plans to run the ELL to Finsbury Park, it requires an
impossible-to-build flying junction with the NLL to be operationally
viable, then additionally an expensive bridge and ramps through
Finsbury Park and over the ECML, plus I'm not sure what you do at
Finsbury Park station, either.

Something on the Parkland Walk itself would be easy to build, but
wouldn't serve much purpose unless you could think of a larger scheme
to hook it into, which the ELL isn't.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

"Bob" wrote in message
oups.com...
A suggestion from Jim Blake elow. Is it feasible?

http://www.hamhigh.co.uk/content/cam...2%3A52%3A78 0

Abandoned railway plan could be revived for Parkland Walk

09 August 2007
I WAS interested to read Ernie Nice's letter relating to the former
railway line between Alexandra Palace, Highgate and Finsbury Park. It
is indeed ridiculous that no-one in authority has taken seriously
proposals to revive this line in an effort to alleviate the appalling
traffic congestion - and poor public transport availability - in such
places as Muswell Hill and Crouch End.


snip description of Northern Heights branches etc

The article seems to gloss over the difficulty of getting from the ELL to
Finsbury Park, which currently requires a flat crossing of the NLL, to the
single track Canonbury tunnel to Drayton Park, which then gets you to the
congestion that is Finsbury Park. IIRC it has been researched to death in
the past by TfL, Network Rail and their predecessors, and the junction
requirements found to be impracticable and not cost effective...

In the thread 'Single track line next to Drayton Park station', 26 July
2007, 'Mr Thant' also explains how difficult the connection at the south of
the tunnel would be...

Paul

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

Bob wrote:
Abandoned railway plan could be revived for Parkland Walk

09 August 2007

Here we go again. Every time someone writes about this they act as if no
one has thought of it before and/or it hasn't been discussed to death a
million times over since the line closed. Some proposals have been taken
seriously but they have failed to get anywhere for legitimate, practical
reasons, AFAICT.

Jim Blake wrote;
and poor public transport availability - in such
places as Muswell Hill and Crouch End.

Neither of those places can be said to be poorly served by public
transport as they have an ample supply of buses. No immediately local
tube or trains, true, but both can be reached by a walk or a short bus
journey. Some people even like the fact there's no tube!

so-called Parkland Walk (which more resembled a dogs' toilet and a
wilderness of stinging nettles when I last visited it a few months
ago!) should be used to restore this vital railway link, which also
could easily co-exist with a footpath and much of the present wildlife
habitat.

At this point in time, I would consider that wilderness of nettles to be
of more lasting benefit than any light rail project although this
opinion may change depending on what Haringey council do to it;

http://www.haringey.gov.uk/pwconsultation

ESB

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

Mr Thant wrote:
On Aug 10, 6:12 pm, Bob wrote:

Something on the Parkland Walk itself would be easy to build,

There's at least 2 schools on the line aren't there?

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Aug 11, 7:56 pm, Stuart wrote:
There's at least 2 schools on the line aren't there?

The Parkland Walk proper from Finsbury Park to Highgate is clear. It's
the second bit frrom Highgate to Alexandra Palace that has the
obstructions.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Aug 11, 8:44 pm, Mr Thant
wrote:
On Aug 11, 7:56 pm, Stuart wrote:

There's at least 2 schools on the line aren't there?

The Parkland Walk proper from Finsbury Park to Highgate is clear. It's
the second bit frrom Highgate to Alexandra Palace that has the
obstructions.


And I think it was still in use for movements between the City branch
and Highgate Depot till the early 1970s wasn't it? How did they get
across Finsbury Park at that time? (I realise that occasional stock
movements aren't equivalent to regular services, so I am not trying to
imply that there's an easy route, but there must be a route.)

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Aug 11, 9:58 pm, MIG wrote:
And I think it was still in use for movements between the City branch
and Highgate Depot till the early 1970s wasn't it? How did they get
across Finsbury Park at that time? (I realise that occasional stock
movements aren't equivalent to regular services, so I am not trying to
imply that there's an easy route, but there must be a route.)

The Northern City had a stock transfer connection with the ECML at
Drayton Park depot, and the Highgate line was built as a branch of the
ECML, with a flying junction that cut into the southwest corner of the
current extent of the park.

See the map and photos he
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...te/index.shtml

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Aug 11, 10:47 pm, Mr Thant
wrote:
On Aug 11, 9:58 pm, MIG wrote:

And I think it was still in use for movements between the City branch
and Highgate Depot till the early 1970s wasn't it? How did they get
across Finsbury Park at that time? (I realise that occasional stock
movements aren't equivalent to regular services, so I am not trying to
imply that there's an easy route, but there must be a route.)

The Northern City had a stock transfer connection with the ECML at
Drayton Park depot, and the Highgate line was built as a branch of the
ECML, with a flying junction that cut into the southwest corner of the
current extent of the park.


I am trying to picture where that would be. Somewhere near the
trainspotters platform?

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Aug 12, 10:41 am, MIG wrote:
I am trying to picture where that would be. Somewhere near the
trainspotters platform?

Sorry, I linked to the wrong page:
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...rk/index.shtml

The street map on that page shows the route of the viaduct through the
park.

The first two photos here show what the junction looked like from the
branch end, facing the park:
http://overground.doeth.net/heights/

The ECML runs left to right underneath the bridges. Northbound trains
arrive from the ramp on the right, directly from the main ECML
formation. Southbound trains turn left, crossing the whole main line,
then use the viaduct alongside the park to reach FP station.

The Northern Heights plan would have had both lines crossing over,
then extended the viaduct through Station Place (where the fancy new
canopy is today) to join the Northern City without using the ECML.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

"Mr Thant" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Aug 12, 10:41 am, MIG wrote:
I am trying to picture where that would be. Somewhere near the
trainspotters platform?

Sorry, I linked to the wrong page:
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...rk/index.shtml

The street map on that page shows the route of the viaduct through the
park.

The first two photos here show what the junction looked like from the
branch end, facing the park:
http://overground.doeth.net/heights/


Interesting site, naming it 'overground' could be confusing in the light of
curent developments though...

Paul

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Aug 12, 12:00 pm, Mr Thant
wrote:
On Aug 12, 10:41 am, MIG wrote:

I am trying to picture where that would be. Somewhere near the
trainspotters platform?

Sorry, I linked to the wrong page:http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...rk/index.shtml

The street map on that page shows the route of the viaduct through the
park.

The first two photos here show what the junction looked like from the
branch end, facing the park:http://overground.doeth.net/heights/

The ECML runs left to right underneath the bridges. Northbound trains
arrive from the ramp on the right, directly from the main ECML
formation. Southbound trains turn left, crossing the whole main line,
then use the viaduct alongside the park to reach FP station.

The Northern Heights plan would have had both lines crossing over,
then extended the viaduct through Station Place (where the fancy new
canopy is today) to join the Northern City without using the ECML.


Thanks. It's interesting that the movements were stopped due to the
condition of the bridge. A similarly arranged flyover bridge was
demolished in Putney due to its condition (although the other track
remains in use). I wonder if a particular design had problems or it
was just down to neglect.

I can talk about the line from Dalston to Finsbury Park with a little extra knowledge as I am a train driver who goes over these lines regularly.

First of all at Dalston there will be a complete remodelling done when the ELL arrives there. It would not be hard for the trains to be able to go to Finsbury Park via Canonbury tunnel when this remodelling is done. I have not seen the plans for the junction, but I suspect that there will be a lead from the ELL towards the number 1 lines at Dalston (the number one lines are the lines with overheads, number 2s have third rail).

On leaving Canonbury tunnel the lines then proceed to Finsbury Park past Drayton Park station (new platforms if ELL extended?). A junction could be put in to allow the trains to run to Finsbury Park over the line which goes to Moorgate. The actual line which now goes to Finsbury Park could become a bi directional line allowing trains to run towards Canonbury.

At Finsbury Park trains to Canonbury could use the platform alongside platform 6 which is currently redundant and trains to Highgate would use platform 6.

From Finsbury Park trains in both directions would then be on the west side of the ECML to the junction where the Parkland walk is at the moment.


So what is required is new points at Dalston, between Drayton Park and Finsbury Park and at the junction of the Parkland walk. There would not be a lot of new signalling required either as the goods line between Finsbury Park and Canonbury is actually already bi directional.

It can be done without disturbing the ECML and with my theory you could also run trains from Highgate to Moorgate via Finsbury Park (I wonder if that would be as quick as the Northern Line?)

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Aug 12, 7:12 pm, somersetchris somersetchris.
wrote:
First of all at Dalston there will be a complete remodelling done when
the ELL arrives there. It would not be hard for the trains to be able
to go to Finsbury Park via Canonbury tunnel when this remodelling is
done. I have not seen the plans for the junction, but I suspect that
there will be a lead from the ELL towards the number 1 lines at Dalston
(the number one lines are the lines with overheads, number 2s have third
rail).

That's still a flat junction, so I'm not sure it's operationally any
better than crossing all the tracks at the Canonbury end.

The actual line which now goes to Finsbury
Park could become a bi directional line allowing trains to run towards
Canonbury.

The expensive-to-fix bottleneck that would leave you with might be
enough to kill the whole project.

So what is required is new points [...] at the junction of the Parkland walk.

The walk currently ends with a blunt abutment high above the ECML, and
at a fairly sharp angle to it. It requires a lot more than points.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

"Mr Thant" wrote in message
ups.com...

The expensive-to-fix bottleneck that would leave you with might be
enough to kill the whole project.

So what is required is new points [...] at the junction of the Parkland
walk.

The walk currently ends with a blunt abutment high above the ECML, and
at a fairly sharp angle to it. It requires a lot more than points.


I was having a look at your blog last night, stacks of info there, certainly
easier to look things up than on the LU site!

Have you had a chance to look at the recently published NR South London RUS
at all, quite a lot in there to distil, and some interesting stuff about ELL
Phase 1, and the effect on the existing timetables from NR's perspective.
They seem (to me) to be worried about the fact that whilst they're trying to
get NR services up to 8, 10 or 12 car, the ELLX trains will only provide 4
car replacements, of course they accept that underground stations can't be
extended. Also seem to be suggesting that the WLL Southern services run to
South Croydon for easier turnrounds.

Paul S

But they are going to build a junction there anyway when the ELL comes through!

Quote:

The actual line which now goes to Finsbury Park could become a bi directional line allowing trains to run towards Canonbury.

The only bottle neck will be Canonbury tunnel. I can see that it used to be two lines through there, but I suspect that it would be very hard to convert it back to two lines because it is cleared for Intermodal container traffic. There is a very sharp bend at the NLL end and to make clearance for two trains to pass would be hard I think.

Quote:

So what is required is new points [...] at the junction of the Parkland walk.

That is the one part I did not think very hard about I must admit.

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Aug 12, 10:27 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
I was having a look at your blog last night, stacks of info there, certainly
easier to look things up than on the LU site!

Thanks!

Have you had a chance to look at the recently published NR South London RUS
at all, quite a lot in there to distil, and some interesting stuff about ELL
Phase 1

I had a look last week, but haven't got round to writing anything up,
since none of the suggestions are very concrete.

Also seem to be suggesting that the WLL Southern services run to South Croydon for easier turnrounds.

It's not just Southern - I think they're discussing possible new south
termini for WLL services in general. How these will be paired with
north termini and operators isn't really made explicit.

It looks like last year's 2010 London Overground map is going to be
very off the mark.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Aug 12, 7:12 pm, somersetchris somersetchris.
wrote:
also run trains from Highgate to Moorgate via Finsbury Park (I wonder if
that would be as quick as the Northern Line?)

Probably quicker. Plus it would have the added benefit of taking a
large number of passengers off the already way overcrowded northern
bank branch line - though to be really effective it would have to go
to as far as east finchley as most people probably couldn't be arsed
to climb up at highgate to get to the high level station but just
hopping across the platform at east finchley (especially if they're
likely to get a seat) would be much more attractive.

B2003

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Aug 12, 11:55 pm, somersetchris somersetchris.
wrote:

But they are going to build a junction there anyway when the ELL comes
through!

Yes, but it's all about conflicts. The ELL service to Highbury won't
conflict with trains on the northern pair at all, and only in one
direction with the southern pair. For a service to Finsbury Park,
trains in both directions would have to cross or run on all four
tracks somewhere.

The only bottle neck will be Canonbury tunnel.

I meant the ECML diveunder south of Finsbury Park station, which I
don't think could be fixed to be double track very easily (I realise
there is a second track already, but it's pretty heavily used by
trains from Moorgate)

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Aug 13, 11:24 am, Boltar wrote:
Probably quicker. Plus it would have the added benefit of taking a
large number of passengers off the already way overcrowded northern
bank branch line

And put them on the equally overcrowded at peak times Northern City
line.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On 13 Aug, 13:13, Mr Thant
wrote:
Probably quicker. Plus it would have the added benefit of taking a
large number of passengers off the already way overcrowded northern
bank branch line

And put them on the equally overcrowded at peak times Northern City
line.


Are you sure about 'equally'? I've always found it far easier to get
on the NCL at Finsbury Park at 0830 than, say, the Northern Line at
Kentish Town at the same time. The full-size trains seems to have a
significantly larger passenger capacity (which would be further
increased if the 2x3 seating were replaced with 2x2 wide-aisle, as in
SWT's 455s).

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007, Mr Thant wrote:

On Aug 12, 11:55 pm, somersetchris somersetchris.
wrote:

The only bottle neck will be Canonbury tunnel.

I meant the ECML diveunder south of Finsbury Park station, which I don't
think could be fixed to be double track very easily (I realise there is
a second track already, but it's pretty heavily used by trains from
Moorgate)

?

Okay, are we now talking about terminating the ELL at Finsbury Park, by
reversing out of a bay platform on what is now the Canonbury reversible
line? If so, yes, you're quite right - you'd need to make that diveunder
three-track, or else you have a single-lead approach that stretches all
the way to the NLL. From the air, there looks like there's enough space to
add a third track; are there pillars or something in the way down there?
Failing that, there are a couple of places you could put in passsing
loops: around Drayton Park, and between the diveunder and the station
(exploiting the existing goods track that joins the down Canonbury from
the main line).

Given that there will still be a single-track bit through the tunnel, how
much difference does this really make?

tom

--
a draw was agreed once the pieces started melting

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007, Mr Thant wrote:

On Aug 13, 11:24 am, Boltar wrote:

Probably quicker. Plus it would have the added benefit of taking a
large number of passengers off the already way overcrowded northern
bank branch line

And put them on the equally overcrowded at peak times Northern City
line.

Nah - you also divert everything north of Finsbury Park onto the ELL!

tom

--
a draw was agreed once the pieces started melting

The line could be doubled from inside the tunnel through to Drayton Park (it looks as though it used to be!). It is only the curve at the NLL end which would have to stay single I think. But I am not sure on that. There are a lot of wires inside the tunnel at that end on the curve which I think must be something to do with gauging.
The line towards Finsbury Park is already called the up and down Canonbury as it is already reversible. Therefore up trains (towards NLL) could use this if the down slow 2 was made reversible between the Finsbury Park and the junction onto the Northern Heights line, with the disused platform next to platform 6 at Finsbury Park reopened. Down trains would go onto what is now the down Moorgate.
Trains from Highgate could alternate with trains from the GN going to Moorgate or the NLL.
The main parts of infrastructure required would be between Finsbury Park and Drayton Park, also reopening the disused platform at Finsbury Park. It would just need up trains from Highgate to run up Down slow 2 from the Northern Heights line junction through to the Drayton Park area

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 14:10:59 -0700, Mr Thant wrote:

So what is required is new points [...] at the junction of the Parkland walk.

The walk currently ends with a blunt abutment high above the ECML, and
at a fairly sharp angle to it. It requires a lot more than points.

Sounds well placed for a flyover over the main lines...

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007, somersetchris wrote:

Tom Anderson;65118 Wrote:

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007, Mr Thant wrote:

On Aug 12, 11:55 pm, somersetchris somersetchris.
wrote:

The only bottle neck will be Canonbury tunnel.

I meant the ECML diveunder south of Finsbury Park station, which I
don't think could be fixed to be double track very easily (I realise
there is a second track already, but it's pretty heavily used by
trains from Moorgate)

Given that there will still be a single-track bit through the tunnel,
how much difference does this really make?

The line could be doubled from inside the tunnel through to Drayton
Park (it looks as though it used to be!).

It did. But didn't someone suggest that it couldn't be redoubled while
also maintaining a freight-suitable loading gauge there? The curve is
quite an important link for freight, so that's rather important.

Perhaps it might be possible to arrange things so that one track is
cleared to W8 (or whatever) and the other only to W6A, signal the W8
reversibly, and just send all freight along that. It could even be
W8-and-only-when-nothing's-on-the-other-track, since it's not a very long
bit.

It is only the curve at the NLL end which would have to stay single I
think. But I am not sure on that.

Don't know. I'd assumed that was once double too, but i really have no
idea.

There are a lot of wires inside the tunnel at that end on the curve
which I think must be something to do with gauging. The line towards
Finsbury Park is already called the up and down Canonbury as it is
already reversible. Therefore up trains (towards NLL) could use this if
the down slow 2 was made reversible between the Finsbury Park and the
junction onto the Northern Heights line, with the disused platform next
to platform 6 at Finsbury Park reopened. Down trains would go onto what
is now the down Moorgate. Trains from Highgate could alternate with
trains from the GN going to Moorgate or the NLL.

Sounds about right. That kind of sharing of bits of line between two
services is asking for trouble, though.

The main parts of infrastructure required would be between Finsbury Park
and Drayton Park, also reopening the disused platform at Finsbury Park.
It would just need up trains from Highgate to run up Down slow 2 from
the Northern Heights line junction through to the Drayton Park area

You still have ELL trains crossing the entire NLL on the flat east of the
Canonbury junction.

tom

--
And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

Abutments can be dug out

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Aug 13, 1:13 pm, Mr Thant
wrote:
On Aug 13, 11:24 am, Boltar wrote:

Probably quicker. Plus it would have the added benefit of taking a
large number of passengers off the already way overcrowded northern
bank branch line

And put them on the equally overcrowded at peak times Northern City
line.

I was presuming that the line would no longer serve its current
destinations beyond finsbury park.

B2003

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Aug 13, 8:22 pm, Boltar wrote:
Probably quicker. Plus it would have the added benefit of taking a
large number of passengers off the already way overcrowded northern
bank branch line

And put them on the equally overcrowded at peak times Northern City
line.

I was presuming that the line would no longer serve its current
destinations beyond finsbury park.


and GN pax from north of FP are going to do what exactly? "Sod it, I'm
not going to commute into the City any more, I'll just get a job at
King's Cross instead"?

Any other option entails driving people onto the overcrowded Northern
line, the overcrowded SSL or the overcrowded Thameslink between KX and
the City...

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Aug 13, 8:49 pm, John B wrote:
On Aug 13, 8:22 pm, Boltar wrote:

Probably quicker. Plus it would have the added benefit of taking a
large number of passengers off the already way overcrowded northern
bank branch line

And put them on the equally overcrowded at peak times Northern City
line.

I was presuming that the line would no longer serve its current
destinations beyond finsbury park.

and GN pax from north of FP are going to do what exactly? "Sod it, I'm
not going to commute into the City any more, I'll just get a job at
King's Cross instead"?

Perhaps they'd get off at finsbury park and change onto the train from
highgate. Just a wild guess. Anyway , its a theoretical exercise so
who cares.

B2003

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

In article . com,
(MIG) wrote:

Thanks. It's interesting that the movements were stopped due to the
condition of the bridge. A similarly arranged flyover bridge was
demolished in Putney due to its condition (although the other track
remains in use). I wonder if a particular design had problems or it
was just down to neglect.

Having known both bridges I doubt there was any significant common design
elements and it was plain neglect.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

I still think that the best thing they could do is extend the ELL to Finsbury Park and then in the future extend it to Highgate/Muswell Hill/Ally Pally. One bit at a time.

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On 14 Aug, 13:29, somersetchris somersetchris.
wrote:
I still think that the best thing they could do is extend the ELL to
Finsbury Park and then in the future extend it to Highgate/Muswell
Hill/Ally Pally. One bit at a time.

What's your solution to the flat-junction-with-NLL-in-steep-cutting-
with-houses-on-both-sides-hence-no-room-for-flyover problem, then?

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007, John B wrote:

On 14 Aug, 13:29, somersetchris somersetchris.
wrote:

I still think that the best thing they could do is extend the ELL to
Finsbury Park

Yes.

and then in the future extend it to Highgate/Muswell Hill/Ally Pally.
One bit at a time.

No. The people who live in those areas currently use buses and the
Northern and Victoria lines to get to central parts of town. Giving them a
service which runs to the east end and the back of beyond isn't going to
change their travel habits (unless they work right at the east end of the
City, where they can walk from Shoreditch High Street).

A resurrected Northern Heights line should connect to the Moorgate line.
Yes, that line is busy, but it's still only something like 15 tph in the
peaks - there's room for more, if the junction to the branch is fully
graded.

What's your solution to the flat-junction-with-NLL-in-steep-cutting-
with-houses-on-both-sides-hence-no-room-for-flyover problem, then?

Ski jump. Offset the cost by selling spectator's tickets.

tom

--
the meaning is the illocutionary force of interrogativeness with no
propositional content -- Geoffrey K. Pullum

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On 14 Aug, 17:57, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007, John B wrote:
On 14 Aug, 13:29, somersetchris somersetchris.
wrote:

I still think that the best thing they could do is extend the ELL to
Finsbury Park

Yes.

and then in the future extend it to Highgate/Muswell Hill/Ally Pally.
One bit at a time.

No. The people who live in those areas currently use buses and the
Northern and Victoria lines to get to central parts of town. Giving them a
service which runs to the east end and the back of beyond isn't going to
change their travel habits (unless they work right at the east end of the
City, where they can walk from Shoreditch High Street).


No one seems to be bothered about the people in Brockley, Honour Oak
etc, whose currently overloaded services to London Bridge are to be
diverted to the back of the same beyond ... but I agree.


A resurrected Northern Heights line should connect to the Moorgate line.
Yes, that line is busy, but it's still only something like 15 tph in the
peaks - there's room for more, if the junction to the branch is fully
graded.


Presumably rebuilding the bridge over the main line, but I am not sure
if some of the land by the park is still available. Certainly some
tennis courts there now by the look of it, but there could be more.


What's your solution to the flat-junction-with-NLL-in-steep-cutting-
with-houses-on-both-sides-hence-no-room-for-flyover problem, then?

Ski jump. Offset the cost by selling spectator's tickets.

tom

--
the meaning is the illocutionary force of interrogativeness with no
propositional content -- Geoffrey K. Pullum

There will be a flat junction at Dalston which will have the lines from Stratford and the ELL meeting. There will also be a flat junction so both of these lines can access both number 1 and 2 lines through Highbury & Islington. So that is where the flat junction will be anyway, so why not use it and then send the trains via Canonbury tunnel to Finsbury Park?

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Aug 14, 11:14 pm, somersetchris somersetchris.
wrote:
There will be a flat junction at Dalston which will have the lines from
Stratford and the ELL meeting.

One flat junction.

There will also be a flat junction so both of these lines can access
both number 1 and 2 lines through Highbury & Islington.

Two flat junctions.

send the trains via Canonbury tunnel to Finsbury Park

Three flat junctions.

And the first flat junction is on the two track bottleneck, whereas a
direct ELL to Number 2 lines connection (to reach Highbury) requires a
single flat junction that only conflicts with trains on the Number 2
lines.

(Of course trains to Finsbury Park could use the same connection, but
then they'd need a fourth flat junction to join the Number 1 lines,
resulting in the same number of conflicts. You can't win)

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007, MIG wrote:

On 14 Aug, 17:57, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007, John B wrote:
On 14 Aug, 13:29, somersetchris somersetchris.
wrote:

I still think that the best thing they could do is extend the ELL to
Finsbury Park and then in the future extend it to Highgate/Muswell
Hill/Ally Pally. One bit at a time.

No. The people who live in those areas currently use buses and the
Northern and Victoria lines to get to central parts of town. Giving
them a service which runs to the east end and the back of beyond isn't
going to change their travel habits (unless they work right at the east
end of the City, where they can walk from Shoreditch High Street).

No one seems to be bothered about the people in Brockley, Honour Oak
etc, whose currently overloaded services to London Bridge are to be
diverted to the back of the same beyond

I am! But that's an argument that's already lost.

A resurrected Northern Heights line should connect to the Moorgate
line. Yes, that line is busy, but it's still only something like 15 tph
in the peaks - there's room for more, if the junction to the branch is
fully graded.

Presumably rebuilding the bridge over the main line, but I am not sure
if some of the land by the park is still available. Certainly some
tennis courts there now by the look of it, but there could be more.

It is possible to knock these things down. Some combination of expensive
and unpopular (the more you spend on compensating improvements to the
park, the less unpopular it will be), but possible.

Getting rid of the greenway trail will be unpopular in itself, of course.

Maybe Hornsey depot could be converted into a park? :)

tom

--
Throwin' Lyle's liquor away is like pickin' a fight with a meat packing
plant! -- Ray Smuckles

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

"MIG" wrote in message
oups.com...

No one seems to be bothered about the people in Brockley, Honour Oak
etc, whose currently overloaded services to London Bridge are to be
diverted to the back of the same beyond ... but I agree.


Not to mention shrunk from the 8, 10, or 12 car trains that NR are
proposing, to the 4 car that will fit the Thames tunnel platforms, however
impressive the frequency is...

Paul

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On 15 Aug, 13:47, Tom Anderson wrote:


Getting rid of the greenway trail will be unpopular in itself, of course.

Maybe Hornsey depot could be converted into a park? :)



Trouble is, the trail is a vital part of the Capital Ring footpath
network. If you convert it back to a railway, you'll have to find
other trails connecting Highgate to Finsbury Park to replace it. (Or
find an alternative route for the Capital Ring to get from Finchley to
Stoke Newington avoiding Highgate and Finsbury Park altogether.)