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Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
Do you own a diesel van-mini bus-truck- or any other type of diesel engined
vehicle? if so the check out the TFL website and search for LEZ (low emmissions zone)and see what Ken Livingstone and TFL are going to introduce from next year (a daily charge of £100 or £200 to drive anywhere inside the M25). Are going to let him getaway with this? |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
In message , John
writes Do you own a diesel van-mini bus-truck- or any other type of diesel engined vehicle? if so the check out the TFL website and search for LEZ (low emmissions zone)and see what Ken Livingstone and TFL are going to introduce from next year (a daily charge of £100 or £200 to drive anywhere inside the M25). Are going to let him getaway with this? He already has. All London's (diesel) taxis must have their exhausts upgraded to the latest Euro levels. This has meant retro fitting exhausts on older taxis, including the TX1's, at an average cost in excess of £2,000 + VAT. To offset this the trade was given an extra 20p per fare increase just over 2 years ago. On the number of fares I do per shift it will take me another 3 years to get back the £2,300 mine will cost me. I can understand the desire to make the environment better and as a taxi driver sitting in traffic I would benefit from it, but to have to make everyone retro fit rather than allow for natural turnover with a higher standard for newer vehicles is not going to win many friends in motoring circles. What about the costs - they will be passed on somehow so how does that benefit people? -- Mike Hughes A Taxi driver licensed for London and Brighton at home in Tarring, West Sussex, England |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 07:25:00 GMT, John wrote:
Do you own a diesel van-mini bus-truck- or any other type of diesel engined vehicle? if so the check out the TFL website and search for LEZ (low emmissions zone)and see what Ken Livingstone and TFL are going to introduce from next year (a daily charge of £100 or £200 to drive anywhere inside the M25). Where does it says that? All I can see is: "The proposals set out above are focused on reducing CO2 emissions from cars, as it is recognised that there is currently less scope for the operators of lorries and heavier vehicles to use lower CO2 alternatives. However, there is scope for operators of these vehicles to use cleaner vehicles in terms of air quality emissions." .... "From 6 October 2008, operators of lorries or heavier vans which meet the Euro V standard would be eligible to apply for a discount to the Congestion Charge, so that they would pay only £6 instead of the standard £8 daily charge." Steve |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
Mike Hughes wrote:
What about the costs - they will be passed on somehow so how does that benefit people? The cost to people's health is already high. People who take taxis are less likely to be those affected by living near heavy traffic. E. |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:55:39 GMT, Steve wrote:
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 07:25:00 GMT, John wrote: [5 quoted lines suppressed] Where does it says that? All I can see is: Sorry found it , i was reading the CC CO2 rules. I wonder how many vehicles it affects, if anything newer than 2001/2 is exempt. Steve |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
Steve ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying : Sorry found it , i was reading the CC CO2 rules. I wonder how many vehicles it affects, if anything newer than 2001/2 is exempt. The aim is to get commercial vehicle operators to use newer, lower emission vehicles for work into the centre of London. Which, it seems to me, isn't a bad idea... http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/lez/vehicles/2535.aspx Strikes me that any van UNDER 1205kg ULW isn't a very big van at all. It's only going to be things like the little Japanese leg-ache vans, isn't it? (Many of which are petrol anyway) - it'll even include stuff as small as many Berlingos. |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
eastender ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying : What about the costs - they will be passed on somehow so how does that benefit people? The cost to people's health is already high. People who take taxis are less likely to be those affected by living near heavy traffic. Want to bet? I was at a friend's flat in Paddington last night. As we arrived, he was just getting out of the "black bus" he'd caught home from work. His (extremely nice and far from cheap) flat has a large balcony overlooking the A40. The Edgware Rd is barely 300yds away. |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
Adrian wrote:
Want to bet? I was at a friend's flat in Paddington last night. As we arrived, he was just getting out of the "black bus" he'd caught home from work. His (extremely nice and far from cheap) flat has a large balcony overlooking the A40. The Edgware Rd is barely 300yds away. Well, that's a sample of one. Keep going and you might have something of statistical significance. E. |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
eastender ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying : Want to bet? I was at a friend's flat in Paddington last night. As we arrived, he was just getting out of the "black bus" he'd caught home from work. His (extremely nice and far from cheap) flat has a large balcony overlooking the A40. The Edgware Rd is barely 300yds away. Well, that's a sample of one. Keep going and you might have something of statistical significance. There's about 150 flats in that building alone. One of the other flats on the market at the mo for £2.6m. Do you really think everywhere in Central London is a dirt-cheap hovel? |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
Adrian wrote:
Do you really think everywhere in Central London is a dirt-cheap hovel? Did you not see the words 'less likely' in what I said? 'Disadvantaged urban areas tend to be characterised by high traffic volume, leading to increased levels of air and noise pollution and higher rates of road traffic accidents without the benefits of access to private transport.' http://www.archive.official-document.../ih/part2d.htm E. |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
eastender ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying : Do you really think everywhere in Central London is a dirt-cheap hovel? Did you not see the words 'less likely' in what I said? 'Disadvantaged urban areas tend to be characterised by high traffic volume, leading to increased levels of air and noise pollution and higher rates of road traffic accidents without the benefits of access to private transport.' I'm sure that is the case, nationally. However you can't extrapolate from that to the (unusual) case of Central London - the fact is that there are plenty of affluent people in London who also live on very busy truck routes. I'm not sure why you want to turn it into a class-war issue, but if that floats your boat, go right ahead. |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
Adrian wrote:
I'm not sure why you want to turn it into a class-war issue, but if that floats your boat, go right ahead. No, just interested in the facts. 'Areas of London with low air quality, high levels of noise pollution and deficiencies in green space closely match those with the highest levels of deprivation.' www.london.gov.uk/mayor/health/ docs/finalissuesforlondon2007.pdf E. |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
On Aug 30, 8:25 am, "John" wrote:
Do you own a diesel van-mini bus-truck- or any other type of diesel engined vehicle? if so the check out the TFL website and search for LEZ (low emmissions zone)and see what Ken Livingstone and TFL are going to introduce from next year (a daily charge of £100 or £200 to drive anywhere inside the M25). Are going to let him getaway with this? How is Ken Livingstone going to charge me for driving in Watford? Kevin |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
Kev ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying : (a daily charge of £100 or £200 to drive anywhere inside the M25). Are going to let him getaway with this? How is Ken Livingstone going to charge me for driving in Watford? He isn't. It's nothing to do with "inside the M25". It's inside the boundaries of the London Boroughs. |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
On 30 Aug, 15:45, Adrian wrote:
(a daily charge of £100 or £200 to drive anywhere inside the M25). Are going to let him getaway with this? How is Ken Livingstone going to charge me for driving in Watford? He isn't. It's nothing to do with "inside the M25". It's inside the boundaries of the London Boroughs. [with the M25 excluded from the charge where it falls within the boundaries of Greater London] -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
John B ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying : How is Ken Livingstone going to charge me for driving in Watford? He isn't. It's nothing to do with "inside the M25". It's inside the boundaries of the London Boroughs. [with the M25 excluded from the charge where it falls within the boundaries of Greater London] Indeed. Together with certain other major approach roads between the boundary and easy turning/unloading points. That's not actually very much of the M25, though, is it? Anybody got an image superimposing the M25 onto this? http://www.thecapitalfund.co.uk/imag...ic/glondon.jpg |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
On 30 Aug 2007 15:46:29 GMT, Adrian wrote:
Anybody got an image superimposing the M25 onto this? http://www.thecapitalfund.co.uk/imag...ic/glondon.jpg There is one at http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/roadusers/...eaofoperation/ David |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
David Walters ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying : Anybody got an image superimposing the M25 onto this? http://www.thecapitalfund.co.uk/imag...ic/glondon.jpg There is one at http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/roadusers/...eaofoperation/ So there is... slaps self So the "But not the M25" exclusion applies to about 200yds somewhere out towards Essex. |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
eastender wrote:
Adrian wrote: I'm not sure why you want to turn it into a class-war issue, but if that floats your boat, go right ahead. No, just interested in the facts. 'Areas of London with low air quality, high levels of noise pollution and deficiencies in green space closely match those with the highest levels of deprivation.' www.london.gov.uk/mayor/health/ docs/finalissuesforlondon2007.pdf Sounds like more Livingstone lies to me. The blocks of flats which line the A41 from Marble Arch to Childs Hill all look pretty expensive to me. The most deprived areas tend to be pedestrianised and very quiet. |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
John Rowland wrote:
Sounds like more Livingstone lies to me. The blocks of flats which line the A41 from Marble Arch to Childs Hill all look pretty expensive to me. The most deprived areas tend to be pedestrianised and very quiet. That may be true in some cities but not so much in London, Bear in mind too that children are particularly affected by pollution, and many primary schools and routes to school in the inner city are on or near main roads. This report matched social deprivation with air pollution, finding a correlation in London but not Glasgow: "The increase in deprivation with increasing air pollution is clearer for London and Belfast. For Glasgow the opposite pattern is evident, with a slight decrease in air concentration with increasing deprivation. This is likely to be owing to a different geography of deprivation in Glasgow compared with the other cities, possibly because of large peripheral housing estates built as part of city centre slum clearance schemes." http://www.airquality.co.uk/archive/reports/cat09/aeat-r-env-0241.pdfhttp://www.airquality.co.uk/archive/...r-env-0241.pdf By and large, poorer people do tend to suffer from factors that affect their health more -regarding roads, accidents certainly so. E. |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
eastender ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying : Sounds like more Livingstone lies to me. The blocks of flats which line the A41 from Marble Arch to Childs Hill all look pretty expensive to me. The most deprived areas tend to be pedestrianised and very quiet. That may be true in some cities but not so much in London, Hmmm. I'd say that London had a higher proportion of expensive areas on main arteries than other cities, with a higher proportion of the poorer population commuting in from outside. Most of the major arteries go through bloody well-off areas. |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
Adrian wrote:
Hmmm. I'd say that London had a higher proportion of expensive areas on main arteries than other cities, with a higher proportion of the poorer population commuting in from outside. Most of the major arteries go through bloody well-off areas. Really? I live in Hackney, which is mostly not very well off. Then look at Tower Hamlets, Islington, Newham, Haringey, Southwark, Lambeth, Brent... I'd say that the more of the traffic burden in terms of pollution, noise and accidents falls on poorer inner city areas, and children and older people who use the streets more are the most affected. E. |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
eastender ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying : Hmmm. I'd say that London had a higher proportion of expensive areas on main arteries than other cities, with a higher proportion of the poorer population commuting in from outside. Most of the major arteries go through bloody well-off areas. Really? I live in Hackney, which is mostly not very well off. Then look at Tower Hamlets, Islington, Newham, Haringey, Southwark, Lambeth, Brent... Which doesn't contradict what I said. MOST of London's major arteries go through (or very close to) well-off areas. |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
Adrian wrote:
MOST of London's major arteries go through (or very close to) well-off areas. This does not mean though that well off people are affected as much as poorer people. I can't see that the Mile End Road is like the A316 through Richmond in terms of housing density, street population, location of primary schools and susceptibility. One health impact is stroke - as this study says: 'Our focus was on proximity to roads and stroke mortality, but a striking observation was the substantial association between socioeconomic deprivation and stroke mortality in middle-aged people.' http://stroke.ahajournals.org/cgi/co...aha;34/12/2776 E. |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
eastender ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying : MOST of London's major arteries go through (or very close to) well-off areas. This does not mean though that well off people are affected as much as poorer people. I can't see that the Mile End Road is like the A316 through Richmond in terms of housing density, street population, location of primary schools and susceptibility. Where did I say that? I was merely pointing out that your original assertion, People who take taxis are less likely to be those affected by living near heavy traffic. Message-ID: was incorrect. They're probably no more nor less likely. In that respect, London's geography and demographics are a great leveller. |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
On 31 Aug, 10:52, Adrian wrote:
I was merely pointing out that your original assertion, People who take taxis are less likely to be those affected by living near heavy traffic. Message-ID: was incorrect. They're probably no more nor less likely. In that respect, London's geography and demographics are a great leveller. But the data, as collated by people who actually know What The Hell They're Talking About, shows that people who are poor in London are more likely to be affected by living near heavy traffic than people who are wealthy. Unless you're proposing a radically counter-intuitive theory about the demographics of taxi useage, that strongly suggests that the original assertion was correct and your 'correction' was not. -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
Adrian wrote:
I was merely pointing out that your original assertion, People who take taxis are less likely to be those affected by living near heavy traffic. Message-ID: was incorrect. They're probably no more nor less likely. In that respect, London's geography and demographics are a great leveller. Well, if you can provide data that shows that people who use taxis are just as likely to be poor people who say live near the Mile End Road, then you have a point. Otherwise, I'm afraid you don't. E. |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
eastender ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying : I was merely pointing out that your original assertion, People who take taxis are less likely to be those affected by living near heavy traffic. Message-ID: was incorrect. They're probably no more nor less likely. In that respect, London's geography and demographics are a great leveller. Well, if you can provide data that shows that people who use taxis are just as likely to be poor people who say live near the Mile End Road, then you have a point. Otherwise, I'm afraid you don't. **** me, but you really do have a problem with comprehension, don't you? |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
Adrian wrote:
**** me, but you really do have a problem with comprehension, don't you? Well, if I've understood you correctly, you are indeed f**ked on this one. E. |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
eastender ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying : **** me, but you really do have a problem with comprehension, don't you? Well, if I've understood you correctly, you are indeed f**ked on this one. And therein lies the problem. You clearly DON'T understand me correctly, because you have an axe to grind. Your original claim was that a lower proportion of those using taxis would be likely to be affected than the population at general. I don't believe that is so, and repeated claims (of the blindingly obvious fact) that more people are poor than rich doesn't come close to justifying your assertion. |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
Adrian wrote:
Your original claim was that a lower proportion of those using taxis would be likely to be affected than the population at general. We are not talking about proportions of taxi users, but I think that's just your bad English. What I said was: 'People who take taxis are less likely to be those affected by living near heavy traffic.' The socioeconomic data - eg from that stroke paper - clearly shows this to be the case, unless you can prove that taxi passengers in London are just as likely to be from the deprived groups affected more by proximity to major roads. E. |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
eastender ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying : Your original claim was that a lower proportion of those using taxis would be likely to be affected than the population at general. We are not talking about proportions of taxi users, but I think that's just your bad English. Not mine. What I said was: 'People who take taxis are less likely to be those affected by living near heavy traffic.' Exactly. Let's say 50% of people are affected. For taxi users to be less likely to be affected, less than 50% of them would be affected. I'm suggesting that is not the case, and you're interpreting that suggestion to mean that taxi users are 50% of the populace. |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
Adrian wrote:
For taxi users to be less likely to be affected, less than 50% of them would be affected. I'm suggesting that is not the case, and you're interpreting that suggestion to mean that taxi users are 50% of the populace. This is nonsense. Let's take it step by step. The original point is that taxi passengers can well afford higher fares to cut the particulate output that disproportionately affects more deprived groups, as per the stroke paper, resulting in health costs that are almost certainly higher than fitting emission controls. In other words, I'm saying that taxi passengers in London are not the same group as the group affected most by pollution. You are saying they either are or could be. Perhaps it will help you to visualise a black cab belching its way down the Mile End Road. Is the passenger most likely to be: A City stockbroker A Bangladeshi woman with diabetes Adrian Lord Lucan. E. |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
eastender wrote:
Perhaps it will help you to visualise a black cab belching its way down the Mile End Road. Is the passenger most likely to be: A City stockbroker A Bangladeshi woman with diabetes Adrian Lord Lucan. Thanks to the Taxicard scheme, it's most likely to be a Bangladeshi woman with diabetes. |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
"Mike Hughes" wrote in message ... What about the costs - they will be passed on somehow so how does that benefit people? I'd say "living longer" is quite a benefit. -- Brian "Fight like the Devil, die like a gentleman." |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007, Adrian wrote:
eastender ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : **** me, but you really do have a problem with comprehension, don't you? Well, if I've understood you correctly, you are indeed f**ked on this one. And therein lies the problem. You clearly DON'T understand me correctly, because you have an axe to grind. Your original claim was that a lower proportion of those using taxis would be likely to be affected than the population at general. I don't believe that is so, and repeated claims (of the blindingly obvious fact) that more people are poor than rich doesn't come close to justifying your assertion. You're either illiterate, simple, or just not paying attention properly. The original claim is "People who take taxis are less likely to be those affected by living near heavy traffic"; i take it we're agreed in assuming that the 'less likely' means 'less likely than in the whole population of London'. The argument supporting this is a good old-fashioned syllogism consisting of two premises: - people who take taxis are less likely to be from deprived areas. - people who live in deprived areas are more likely to be those affected by living near heavy traffic Either the structure of the argument is duff, the first premise is false, the second premise is false, or the claim is true. The structure looks okay to me. If you don't think so, do explain. The first premise looks good to me - even with taxicard getting poor cripples into cabs, i'd say cabs are mostly used by well-off people. If Mike Hughes, or any other cab driver, is reading this, perhaps he could give us his impression? The second premise is supported by studies people have posted. If you want to overturn it, you're going to need some hard data. Do you have that? If not, you have to admit that either the claim is true, or that you're illiterate, simple or not paying attention properly. tom -- 10 PARTY : GOTO 10 |
Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
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Do you own a diesel engined vehicle?
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