In article ,
(Clive.) wrote:

In message . com,
John B writes
I guess it was lucky (in so much as these things can ever be lucky)
that the line wasn't much use at the time of the Moorgate disaster,
since that meant the train was carrying its seated capacity of 300ish
people rather than its design capacity of 800ish...
If my memory serves me correctly (questionable) the Northern City
line as it was known only used 4 car sets.

6 car in the peaks. I think they may have used 3-car 38TS off-peak but
with compressor rules by then they may have run 6 cars all day. Standard
stock ran as 2 car off-peak, 6 car peak.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article .com,
(Mizter T) wrote:

So it would seem that, from 1964 at least, the GN&CR (aka the Northern
City line) would mostly been a bit of interest to local passengers.
Certainly some reports suggest it was a bit of a backwater even before
it got cut back from Finsbury Park (after all, if it'd been a crucial
link it wouldn't have been evicted from FP) - it only really came into
its own from '76 onwards, fulfilling it's originally intended purpose.

That was my observation from occasional visits around then. The Standard
stock lasted till 1966.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes
6 car in the peaks. I think they may have used 3-car 38TS off-peak but
with compressor rules by then they may have run 6 cars all day. Standard
stock ran as 2 car off-peak, 6 car peak.
Yes, I well remember the two compressor minimum rule, or out of service
at the nearest point. However, a two car train implies a "A" and a "D"
coupled together, neither of which carried compressors, what happened in
these circumstances?
--
Clive.

In article ,
(Clive.) wrote:

*Subject:* 1938 Stock Tube Tours
*From:* "Clive."
*Date:* Sat, 22 Sep 2007 17:40:52 +0100

In message . com,
MIG writes
The report in the previous link implies that is was made of two
three-
car sets, ie six altogether.

The story (and also some other accounts I've read) suggests that a
number of people were standing, although that could be a case of
"I'll
have an uncomfortable journey to save a few yards at the terminus".
As I remember my time on the Northern Line, trains were composed of
four and three car sets, each three car set being composed of only
one driving car and a panel driven (30000unit?) Now as all the
driving cars were either "A" or "D" end and as the units were
uniform it would suggest that all the 30000 units were either "A"
or "D", I suspect "A". At that time, only "A" and "D" units could
couple under normal circumstances. This is why I suspect press
reports about six car trains. As I've said I suspect the trains
were only four cars long and this came from seeing them in 16 foot
tunnels and eight car platforms, but if you can provide me with
more accurate information, I'll happily apologise and back down.

The Northern main line had 7 car trains, with M-T-T-M four car units and
a mixture of M-T-M and UNDM-T-M three-car units. The UNDMs were numbered
in the 30000 series. However, I think all the Northern City trains were
and still are 6 cars maximum.

goes to bookshelf

My 1969 edition of Ian Allan's "London Transport Locomotives and Rolling
Stock" has my contemporary annotations on the Northern line 1938TS that
there were then 115 4-car units and 124 3-car units in service, with 10
of the latter allocated to the Northern City line, including 5 3-car sets
with even-numbered DMs which had been reduced from 4 cars.

QED.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes
The Northern main line had 7 car trains, with M-T-T-M four car units
This is definitely wrong. Each four car set comprised a driving motor,
a non-driving motor, a trailer double compressor and a driving motor
car. Your setup implies only four motor cars per train, but there were
definitely five. I don't know where your info comes from, but I worked
on them and I know I'm right.
--
Clive.

In article ,
(Clive.) wrote:

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes
6 car in the peaks. I think they may have used 3-car 38TS off-peak but
with compressor rules by then they may have run 6 cars all day.
Standard stock ran as 2 car off-peak, 6 car peak.
Yes, I well remember the two compressor minimum rule, or out of
service at the nearest point. However, a two car train implies a
"A" and a "D" coupled together, neither of which carried
compressors, what happened in these circumstances?

The standard stock 2 car units were a motor and a control trailer. The
motor car had a compressor which was thought to be enough in those days.
It wasn;t one of those unreliable under-floor trolleybus compressors
either.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Sep 22, 8:58 pm, "Clive." wrote:
In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writesThe Northern main line had 7 car trains, with M-T-T-M four car units

This is definitely wrong. Each four car set comprised a driving motor,
a non-driving motor, a trailer double compressor and a driving motor
car. Your setup implies only four motor cars per train, but there were
definitely five. I don't know where your info comes from, but I worked
on them and I know I'm right.
--
Clive.



That is true; the four-car units definitely had NDMs. The Northern
and Bakerloo had seven-car trains which were nearly all DM-T-NDM-DM +
DM-T-DM, in fact all were by the early to mid 1970s, which I can
remember properly. The UNDMs had all gone, and were relatively rare
in the first place. I don't know when the last one ran.

The UNDMs were all from the extra build known as 1949 stock, rather
than 1938 stock as such. I think that 1949 stock consisted of only
UNDMs and trailers and allowed units to be reformed.

time passes

I've just found another source suggesting that the Northern City line
only had three-car units, and that six-car formations ran from the
opening of the Victoria Line in 1968, which fits with the report.
Presumably traffic increased with people changing and Highbury and
Islington.

Also that the last UNDMs were withdrawn in 1974, as were the last
converted 1927 coaches that had been formed into 1938 stock.

In article ,
(Clive.) wrote:

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes
The Northern main line had 7 car trains, with M-T-T-M four car units
This is definitely wrong. Each four car set comprised a driving
motor, a non-driving motor, a trailer double compressor and a
driving motor car. Your setup implies only four motor cars per
train, but there were definitely five. I don't know where your
info comes from, but I worked on them and I know I'm right.

Yes, sorry, brain fade. The 1938 TS had only one traction motor per bogie
so fewer trailers. I means M-NDM-T-M of course.

The trailers mainly had one compressor, though, didn't they? They only
added a second where a 4 car unit had to be able to run alone.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article om,
(MIG) wrote:

The UNDMs were all from the extra build known as 1949 stock, rather
than 1938 stock as such. I think that 1949 stock consisted of only
UNDMs and trailers and allowed units to be reformed.

Not so at all. Some of the UNDMs (22 out of 92) came from the remains of
the aborted 9 car train experiment.

There were no 1949 stock cars with full driving cabs, though. They were
the first cars to be withdrawn because they were non-standard.

I've just found another source suggesting that the Northern City line
only had three-car units, and that six-car formations ran from the
opening of the Victoria Line in 1968, which fits with the report.
Presumably traffic increased with people changing and Highbury and
Islington.

It will be because of the requirement that trains had to have at least
two compressors that dictated 6 car trains all the time.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Sep 23, 2:02 pm, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article om,

(MIG) wrote:
The UNDMs were all from the extra build known as 1949 stock, rather
than 1938 stock as such. I think that 1949 stock consisted of only
UNDMs and trailers and allowed units to be reformed.

Not so at all. Some of the UNDMs (22 out of 92) came from the remains of
the aborted 9 car train experiment.

There were no 1949 stock cars with full driving cabs, though. They were
the first cars to be withdrawn because they were non-standard.

I've just found another source suggesting that the Northern City line
only had three-car units, and that six-car formations ran from the
opening of the Victoria Line in 1968, which fits with the report.
Presumably traffic increased with people changing and Highbury and
Islington.

It will be because of the requirement that trains had to have at least
two compressors that dictated 6 car trains all the time.


The implication, not spelled out, was that three-car units were
transferred in 1966, and ran in pairs from 1968. Maybe they had
double compressors or maybe the implication is wrong.