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DLR train makes a bit for freedom
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DLR train makes a bit for freedom
On 1 Nov, 16:19, Boltar wrote:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11...s_staff_on_pla... Blimey! I guess the Passenger Service Agent (PSA) leant in and hit the doors close button whilst still standing on the platform. That's quite a muck up to make though, and actually sounds like quite a difficult thing to achieve! Whilst most unlikely, if there had been a problem on the track somewhere before the next station, or some other kind of problem, then the lack of a PSA could have led to a bigger issue than just a delay. That said, automatically driven unstaffed metro do exist elsewhere without problems (something I learnt only recently from other utl posters, proving again how little I know!). Wonder if any of the Central line drivers might like to try doing this?! P.S. I've just followed The Register's link to the Londonist blog, which was where this story originated from. To read about it from the horses mouth go he http://londonist.com/2007/10/runaway_dlr.php |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
On 2007-11-01, Mizter T wrote:
On 1 Nov, 16:19, Boltar wrote: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11...s_staff_on_pla... Blimey! I guess the Passenger Service Agent (PSA) leant in and hit the doors close button whilst still standing on the platform. That's quite a muck up to make though, and actually sounds like quite a difficult thing to achieve! I think that pulling the PSA key out has the same effect, and would be easier to do - both physically and as a likely result of momemtary absent-mindedness. That said, automatically driven unstaffed metro do exist elsewhere without problems (something I learnt only recently from other utl posters, proving again how little I know!). Lille would be the nearest one, I think. e. |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
On Nov 1, 9:21 pm, Eric wrote:
On 2007-11-01, Mizter T wrote: On 1 Nov, 16:19, Boltar wrote: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11...s_staff_on_pla... Blimey! I guess the Passenger Service Agent (PSA) leant in and hit the doors close button whilst still standing on the platform. That's quite a muck up to make though, and actually sounds like quite a difficult thing to achieve! I think that pulling the PSA key out has the same effect, and would be easier to do - both physically and as a likely result of momemtary absent-mindedness. Ah, that makes a bit of sense. I don't think the PSA is required to release the doors though, so the passengers wouldn't be locked in at the next station. That said, automatically driven unstaffed metro do exist elsewhere without problems (something I learnt only recently from other utl posters, proving again how little I know!). Lille would be the nearest one, I think. Lille is totally closed in with JLE style platform edge doors (the first place I remember seeing such things), so there isn't the same risk of someone being dragged under the train etc. Maybe some risk, but a bit less. |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
"Mizter T" wrote in message
ups.com... Wonder if any of the Central line drivers might like to try doing this?! I don't think that's possible, considering where the release buttons are located. They'd probably also run a real risk of getting dragged. |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
On 1 Nov, 20:48, Mizter T wrote:
Wonder if any of the Central line drivers might like to try doing this?! I read a story online somewhere (can't find it now) about a Victoria Line driver getting out of his train when stuck at a red signal, but without deactivating the ATO. As soon as the signal cleared, the train restarted itself, narrowly missing him. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
"Mr Thant" wrote in message ups.com... On 1 Nov, 20:48, Mizter T wrote: Wonder if any of the Central line drivers might like to try doing this?! I read a story online somewhere (can't find it now) about a Victoria Line driver getting out of his train when stuck at a red signal, but without deactivating the ATO. As soon as the signal cleared, the train restarted itself, narrowly missing him. Thinking of which, what do LU drrivers do when they need to spring a leak ? Is there no sort of in-cab facility ? Jim Hawkins |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
On Nov 1, 10:39 pm, MIG wrote:
Lille would be the nearest one, I think. Lille is totally closed in with JLE style platform edge doors (the first place I remember seeing such things), so there isn't the same risk of someone being dragged under the train etc. Maybe some risk, but a bit less. I've been on the lille one and even on a sunday it was crowded (mind you , the trains are ridiculously narrow which doesn't help). I really wouldn't want to be stuck on a broken down one in the rush hour knowing that there was no one on board who could help. B2003 |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
"Mr Thant" wrote in message ups.com... On 1 Nov, 20:48, Mizter T wrote: Wonder if any of the Central line drivers might like to try doing this?! I read a story online somewhere (can't find it now) about a Victoria Line driver getting out of his train when stuck at a red signal, but without deactivating the ATO. As soon as the signal cleared, the train restarted itself, narrowly missing him. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London I thought it was in a platform where a door had got stuck and he went to give it a shove. Did so, and voila the train shot off. |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
"Jim Hawkins" wrote in message ... "Mr Thant" wrote in message ups.com... On 1 Nov, 20:48, Mizter T wrote: Wonder if any of the Central line drivers might like to try doing this?! I read a story online somewhere (can't find it now) about a Victoria Line driver getting out of his train when stuck at a red signal, but without deactivating the ATO. As soon as the signal cleared, the train restarted itself, narrowly missing him. Thinking of which, what do LU drrivers do when they need to spring a leak ? Is there no sort of in-cab facility ? There is no in-cab facility. The driver uses a headwall autophone to call the nearest depot in advance to request a PNR - Personal Needs Relief, the DMT then tasks a spare operator to meet the train and run it from the relief point to terminus and back to enable to booked operator to "spring his or her leak" and then rejoin their train. Possible caveats are that no spares are available, the need is urgent or the train is past the relief point. No spares or past relief point - hang on to terminus and run round as required until operator ready to continue, need is urgent - secure train in next platform and use station facilities. There are a couple of "non-approved" options involving fizzy pop bottles or stopping in the tunnel, opening the "M" door and trying not to hit the juice rail that we won't go into... -- Cheers, Steve. Change jealous to sad to reply. |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
"Frank Incense" wrote in message ... "Mr Thant" wrote in message ups.com... On 1 Nov, 20:48, Mizter T wrote: Wonder if any of the Central line drivers might like to try doing this?! I read a story online somewhere (can't find it now) about a Victoria Line driver getting out of his train when stuck at a red signal, but without deactivating the ATO. As soon as the signal cleared, the train restarted itself, narrowly missing him. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London I thought it was in a platform where a door had got stuck and he went to give it a shove. Did so, and voila the train shot off. Two different incidents, Vic line train nearly "one-undering" it's own driver and Picc line train driving itself to (I think) Holloway Road when the operator hung his bag on the CTBC, got out of the cab at Kings Cross to kick a passenger door shut and failed to notice that the cab door interlock had been overridden. -- Cheers, Steve. Change jealous to sad to reply. |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
If a Victoria Line train is stopped between two stations and a signal
clears, wouldn't the train's further movement be contingent on some sort of positive action from the driver? Where exactly does the Victoria have wayside signals, by the way, considering that it is ATO? I assume that they are they only at stations, as starters, and junctions? "Mr Thant" wrote in message ups.com... I read a story online somewhere (can't find it now) about a Victoria Line driver getting out of his train when stuck at a red signal, but without deactivating the ATO. As soon as the signal cleared, the train restarted itself, narrowly missing him. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
"Boltar" wrote in message
ups.com... I've been on the lille one and even on a sunday it was crowded (mind you , the trains are ridiculously narrow which doesn't help). I really wouldn't want to be stuck on a broken down one in the rush hour knowing that there was no one on board who could help. B2003 That happened to me when I was on the Lille Metro some years ago. The train came to a sudden stop between stations and stood there for several minutes. An employee eventually approached the train from the tunnel rampway, opened the front side door, took control of the train and shunted it into the next station. The train continued on its merry way afterwards as I guess something was reset. |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
On 2 Nov, 23:23, wrote:
If a Victoria Line train is stopped between two stations and a signal clears, wouldn't the train's further movement be contingent on some sort of positive action from the driver? According to this, a 270 code restarts the train automatically, but not in stations: http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Vi...Line%20ATO.htm Where exactly does the Victoria have wayside signals, by the way, considering that it is ATO? I assume that they are they only at stations, as starters, and junctions? It doesn't AFAIK. I meant "red signal" figuratively. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
In message , Steve
Dulieu writes Two different incidents, Vic line train nearly "one-undering" it's own driver and Picc line train driving itself to (I think) Holloway Road when the operator hung his bag on the CTBC, got out of the cab at Kings Cross to kick a passenger door shut and failed to notice that the cab door interlock had been overridden. I've not heard of the Victoria Line incident. Did not the other (Piccadilly) driver get prosecuted? -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
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DLR train makes a bit for freedom
"Steve Dulieu" wrote in message
.uk... Two different incidents, Vic line train nearly "one-undering" it's own driver and Picc line train driving itself to (I think) Holloway Road when the operator hung his bag on the CTBC, got out of the cab at Kings Cross to kick a passenger door shut and failed to notice that the cab door interlock had been overridden. -- Cheers, Steve. Change jealous to sad to reply. Is that actually possible, even if he did hang his bag on the CTBC? Based on what I know about the controllers on 73Ts, I would think that airbrakes would release after the driver kicked the door shut. But I did not think that the motors would engage and the train would take off because the driver would have to move the controller at least two positions to get to shunt. How would the train have stopped at Holloway Road anyway, by being tripped at the starter? |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
In message , Ian Jelf
writes Two different incidents, Vic line train nearly "one-undering" it's own driver and Picc line train driving itself to (I think) Holloway Road when the operator hung his bag on the CTBC, got out of the cab at Kings Cross to kick a passenger door shut and failed to notice that the cab door interlock had been overridden. I've not heard of the Victoria Line incident. Did not the other (Piccadilly) driver get prosecuted? Yes, word at work is that he went to jail for Endangering Passenger's Safety or somesuch. -- Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building. You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK (please use the reply to address for email) |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
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DLR train makes a bit for freedom
On Nov 4, 5:13 pm, Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:
In message , Ian Jelf writes Two different incidents, Vic line train nearly "one-undering" it's own driver and Picc line train driving itself to (I think) Holloway Road when the operator hung his bag on the CTBC, got out of the cab at Kings Cross to kick a passenger door shut and failed to notice that the cab door interlock had been overridden. I've not heard of the Victoria Line incident. Did not the other (Piccadilly) driver get prosecuted? Yes, word at work is that he went to jail for Endangering Passenger's Safety or somesuch. Seems a bit harsh given that a few years back a northern line train went backwards when the driver dozed off and AFAIK nothing much happened to him. That incident would have put the passengers in far more danger because of the trips not working in reverse than the piccadilly incident would have. B2003 |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
In message . com,
Boltar writes I've not heard of the Victoria Line incident. Did not the other (Piccadilly) driver get prosecuted? Yes, word at work is that he went to jail for Endangering Passenger's Safety or somesuch. Seems a bit harsh given that a few years back a northern line train went backwards when the driver dozed off and AFAIK nothing much happened to him. That incident would have put the passengers in far more danger because of the trips not working in reverse than the piccadilly incident would have. I think purposely defeating safety equipment is treated a bit more seriously. Was there ever a definitive answer to the Northern line incident? -- Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building. You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK (please use the reply to address for email) |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 10:19:50 -0800, Boltar
wrote: Seems a bit harsh given that a few years back a northern line train went backwards when the driver dozed off and AFAIK nothing much happened to him. That incident would have put the passengers in far more danger because of the trips not working in reverse than the piccadilly incident would have. B2003 Boltar, You fascinate me. My earliest memories of you are being very critical of LUL about delays and so on - now you are one of the most knowledgeable posters here. You still criticise when appropriate, but not from a position of ignorance - good for you. Just don't go native, whatever you do! |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
On Nov 4, 5:15 pm, Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:
In message , writes Is that actually possible, even if he did hang his bag on the CTBC? Used to be before they redesigned the console (a cause of the incident in question) Based on what I know about the controllers on 73Ts, I would think that airbrakes would release after the driver kicked the door shut. But I did not think that the motors would engage and the train would take off because the driver would have to move the controller at least two positions to get to shunt. The TBC was left in a motoring position - so it motored! How would the train have stopped at Holloway Road anyway, by being tripped at the starter? Caught up to the train in front and was tripped on the station starter. So ... he was about to start off and then realised that he couldn't because a door hadn't shut properly, so the controller was in the "go" position (I don't know any details of driving). Would resetting the controller before getting out actually be more effort than finding something to hang on it? That's the bit I don't understand. |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
On Thu, 1 Nov 2007, Mr Thant wrote:
On 1 Nov, 20:48, Mizter T wrote: Wonder if any of the Central line drivers might like to try doing this?! I read a story online somewhere (can't find it now) about a Victoria Line driver getting out of his train when stuck at a red signal, but without deactivating the ATO. As soon as the signal cleared, the train restarted itself, narrowly missing him. So Vic trains under ATO don't need a hand on a dead man's handle? This i did not know. That seems like a funny decision. tom -- In-jokes for out-casts |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
Tom Anderson wrote:
On Thu, 1 Nov 2007, Mr Thant wrote: On 1 Nov, 20:48, Mizter T wrote: Wonder if any of the Central line drivers might like to try doing this?! I read a story online somewhere (can't find it now) about a Victoria Line driver getting out of his train when stuck at a red signal, but without deactivating the ATO. As soon as the signal cleared, the train restarted itself, narrowly missing him. So Vic trains under ATO don't need a hand on a dead man's handle? This i did not know. That seems like a funny decision. No it's not. If you had a dead man's handle on the Vic and the driver had a heart attack, the train would stop in the tunnel with nobody on board able to radio for assistance or talk to the passengers. Without a dead man's handle, the ATO would drive the train *safely* to the next station where the driver and passengers could more easily and quickly be attended to. Which would you prefer? -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
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DLR train makes a bit for freedom
"MIG" wrote in message ps.com... On Nov 4, 5:15 pm, Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote: In message , writes Is that actually possible, even if he did hang his bag on the CTBC? Used to be before they redesigned the console (a cause of the incident in question) Based on what I know about the controllers on 73Ts, I would think that airbrakes would release after the driver kicked the door shut. But I did not think that the motors would engage and the train would take off because the driver would have to move the controller at least two positions to get to shunt. The TBC was left in a motoring position - so it motored! How would the train have stopped at Holloway Road anyway, by being tripped at the starter? Caught up to the train in front and was tripped on the station starter. So ... he was about to start off and then realised that he couldn't because a door hadn't shut properly, so the controller was in the "go" position (I don't know any details of driving). Would resetting the controller before getting out actually be more effort than finding something to hang on it? That's the bit I don't understand. As far as is known, the driver habitually hung his bag from the CTBC to avoid having to hold it down himself, the bag had most likely been hanging on the CTBC since he had got on the train. When he let go of the CTBC this also had the effect of pulling the CTBC into a motoring position meaning that he only needed to touch it when he needed to brake coming into a station. It was this blatant disregard for safety that got him sacked and prosecuted. He left the cab to give a door on the leading car some encouragement thinking that with the cab door open the cab door interlock would prevent the train from moving. There are two versions of the story from this point, V1 says that the cab door interlock was defective and although the cut out switch was in the cut in position, when the passenger door interlock made, the train motored off without him. V2 says that he simply didn't notice that someone had operated the cab door cut out switch to the cut out position with the same result once the passenger door interlock made. -- Cheers, Steve. Change jealous to sad to reply. |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 22:13:55 GMT, "Richard J."
wrote: Tom Anderson wrote: So Vic trains under ATO don't need a hand on a dead man's handle? This i did not know. That seems like a funny decision. No it's not. If you had a dead man's handle on the Vic and the driver had a heart attack, the train would stop in the tunnel with nobody on board able to radio for assistance or talk to the passengers. Like on every other line, I presume? |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
On Nov 4, 7:49 pm, wrote:
You fascinate me. My earliest memories of you are being very critical of LUL about delays and so on - now you are one of the most knowledgeable posters here. You still criticise when appropriate, but I am? When did that happen?! :) The only reason I've stopped moaning so much about the tube is that I recently got a job where I can avoid having to use it altogether and I'm much less stressed because of that. not from a position of ignorance - good for you. Just don't go native, whatever you do! No chance , I'm happy to just sit under my bridge and taking the occasional potshot at passing posts ;) B2003 |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
In article ,
Colin Rosenstiel wrote: In article , (Tom Anderson) wrote: So Vic trains under ATO don't need a hand on a dead man's handle? This i did not know. That seems like a funny decision. I think the point was that a carefully placed bag would do. That was the piccadilly line incident. -- Shenanigans! Shenanigans! Best of 3! -- Flash |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
On Sun, 4 Nov 2007, Richard J. wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote: On Thu, 1 Nov 2007, Mr Thant wrote: On 1 Nov, 20:48, Mizter T wrote: Wonder if any of the Central line drivers might like to try doing this?! I read a story online somewhere (can't find it now) about a Victoria Line driver getting out of his train when stuck at a red signal, but without deactivating the ATO. As soon as the signal cleared, the train restarted itself, narrowly missing him. So Vic trains under ATO don't need a hand on a dead man's handle? This i did not know. That seems like a funny decision. No it's not. If you had a dead man's handle on the Vic and the driver had a heart attack, the train would stop in the tunnel with nobody on board able to radio for assistance or talk to the passengers. Without a dead man's handle, the ATO would drive the train *safely* to the next station where the driver and passengers could more easily and quickly be attended to. Which would you prefer? In that hypothetical situation, no dead man's handle. In the hazardous situation that actually happened, a dead man's handle. You can make hypothetical arguments either way - and probably find real-life cases too. However, the fact that trains with dead man's handles have operated in London for over a century without, as far as i know, the kind of situation you describe having led to any casualties indicates to me that it's a generally quite safe way of operating a train. It would be interesting to know how many times dangerous situations have been avoided through the use of the dead man's handle - driver sees an obstruction and the line and releases it, sort of thing. With ATO, the driver can presumably stop the train by some positive action, so he wouldn't be powerless in that kind of situation; however, if he had become incapacitated, he would be unable to take that action. An extreme case, i know, and one rendered particularly unlikely by the entirely underground nature of the Victoria line! tom -- First man to add a mixer get a shoeing! -- The Laird |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
It would not surprise me to find out, however, that drivers need to keep
their hand on the controller or the emergency brake when they come into a station. This, of course, depending on which side of the cab they stand. "Tom Anderson" wrote in message .li... So Vic trains under ATO don't need a hand on a dead man's handle? This i did not know. That seems like a funny decision. tom -- In-jokes for out-casts |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
I read about this earlier on this group.
If a driver dies in the cab and releases the dead man's handle, the line controller will at first try to contact him to see why he hasn't reset and continued on his way (It does happen that hands occasionally just slip off the controller.). If that is unsuccessful the line controller will then link into the train's PA and request that any LUL employee on board come forward and see what's happened. Failing that, IIRC, they might send somebody down to see what's wrong. "Richard J." wrote in message .uk... No it's not. If you had a dead man's handle on the Vic and the driver had a heart attack, the train would stop in the tunnel with nobody on board able to radio for assistance or talk to the passengers. Without a dead man's handle, the ATO would drive the train *safely* to the next station where the driver and passengers could more easily and quickly be attended to. Which would you prefer? -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
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DLR train makes a bit for freedom
Tom Anderson wrote hypothetical arguments either way - and probably find real-life cases too. However, the fact that trains with dead man's handles have operated in London for over a century without, as far as i know, the kind of situation you describe having led to any casualties indicates to me that it's a generally quite safe way of operating a train. But throughout most of that "over a century" those trains were not OPO (One Person Operated) so there was little downside to the policy of "stop and let the guard sort it out". Safety engineers now have to consider what the passengers might get up to in panic if they think themselves trapped. A reliable video, audio and telemetry link to the control room might change the balance yet again. -- Mike D |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
On Sun, 4 Nov 2007 22:04:41 +0000, Tom Anderson wrote:
I read a story online somewhere (can't find it now) about a Victoria Line driver getting out of his train when stuck at a red signal, but without deactivating the ATO. As soon as the signal cleared, the train restarted itself, narrowly missing him. So Vic trains under ATO don't need a hand on a dead man's handle? This i did not know. That seems like a funny decision. Hmm. Never been on the DLR? |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
On 5 Nov, 21:55, Tom Anderson wrote:
As in the train behind comes forward and does a push-out or sends over a new driver or something. Is it possible to couple two trains in the tunnel and have the relieving driver drive the double train from the front? The procedure is known as "leap-frogging" which involves the train operator of the train behind stopping short of the rear of the first train, going forward to investigate and, if nescessary, moving the first train forward. Subsequent trains repeat this, until a relief operator is on-site. |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
On Mon, 5 Nov 2007, asdf wrote:
On Sun, 4 Nov 2007 22:04:41 +0000, Tom Anderson wrote: I read a story online somewhere (can't find it now) about a Victoria Line driver getting out of his train when stuck at a red signal, but without deactivating the ATO. As soon as the signal cleared, the train restarted itself, narrowly missing him. So Vic trains under ATO don't need a hand on a dead man's handle? This i did not know. That seems like a funny decision. Hmm. Never been on the DLR? Certainly not! It's a deathtrap! tom -- But for [Flavor Flav's] "YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAH BOYYYYYYYYYY"s alone he should be given Rap Legend status. -- Nate Patrin, ILX |
DLR train makes a bit for freedom
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DLR train makes a bit for freedom
On Nov 6, 6:14 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 5 Nov 2007, asdf wrote: On Sun, 4 Nov 2007 22:04:41 +0000, Tom Anderson wrote: I read a story online somewhere (can't find it now) about a Victoria Line driver getting out of his train when stuck at a red signal, but without deactivating the ATO. As soon as the signal cleared, the train restarted itself, narrowly missing him. So Vic trains under ATO don't need a hand on a dead man's handle? This i did not know. That seems like a funny decision. Hmm. Never been on the DLR? Certainly not! It's a deathtrap! Funnily enough, when I saw the heading as the thread started, I wondered if one had fallen off. Has anyone arrived at Crossharbour from the south recently (sitting near the front)? They rock so violently now that I am getting nervous. I don't think it was always like that. |
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