London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:19:58 -0800, Mizter T
wrote:

Of course there would still be the tricky issue of which route the
Oyster system presumed you had taken, regardless of what actual route
you did in fact take.

Richmond-Stratford, anyone?


The system works on idea that the passenger takes the quickest and most
direct route, so for Oyster usage R-S should be done via District Line and
Central Line, changing at Mile End and taking 43 minutes (max 57) according
to Planner times.

The TfL Journey Planner tells you to take SWT to Waterloo, W&C to Bank and
then Central Line in 57 minutes.
Doing it by the Overground, which is the simplest route, takes 1hr3min.

I think the TfL Journey Planner needs an overhaul to suggest more sensible
routes and not base it entirely on departure times.

I suspect that if any journey takes more than 2 hours you get charged with
the maximum fare. I went Richmond to North Woolwich (and then back to
Epping)when that stretch closed down, spent 20 minutes at NW taking pictures
and got stuck with the max possible fare because the Oyster system timed me
out. It might have been an invalid route at the time but I did touch in and
out at the correct places.
It also does this when the Tube breaks down for long periods, as happened to
me earlier this year, but thankfully that one got capped at the Daily
Travelcard rate because the breakdown was after 9.30am.

Nick



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On 13 Nov, 15:07, wrote:
Counting the zones isn't always reliable or accurate, as you and
others have pointed out in this thread. (The NLL route from Richmond
to Stratford doesn't go through zone one, but is priced as if it
does.)

Have we established that this is the case, or is it just conjecture
based on the status quo pre-London Overground? I'd be surprised if it
were [the case], given the obvious and immediate potential for
confusion, annoyance and bad PR...

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On 13 Nov, 14:22, John B wrote:
On 13 Nov, 15:07, wrote:

Counting the zones isn't always reliable or accurate, as you and
others have pointed out in this thread. (The NLL route from Richmond
to Stratford doesn't go through zone one, but is priced as if it
does.)

Have we established that this is the case, or is it just conjecture
based on the status quo pre-London Overground? I'd be surprised if it
were [the case], given the obvious and immediate potential for
confusion, annoyance and bad PR...

--
John Band

The TfL Single Fare finder suggests it is priced as such - and I am
led to believe (perhaps wrongly) that the data used by that facility
matches that of the fares tables in the Oyster database.

However I can imagine it is possible that there is an exception
written in to the system for season Travelcards (in this case those
that cover zones 2-4). However if (and that's a big if) there is such
an exception it presumably wouldn't make a difference to the assumed
zones travelled through with regards to daily capping rates.

But you're right to say there is a lot of conjecture flying around, a
fair bit of it coming from me! I need to get out there and try some of
these journeys out. I am unfortunately a bit tied up at the moment but
if I can I will.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 07:15:46 -0800, Mizter T
wrote:

On 13 Nov, 14:22, John B wrote:
On 13 Nov, 15:07, wrote:

Counting the zones isn't always reliable or accurate, as you and
others have pointed out in this thread. (The NLL route from Richmond
to Stratford doesn't go through zone one, but is priced as if it
does.)

Have we established that this is the case, or is it just conjecture
based on the status quo pre-London Overground? I'd be surprised if it
were [the case], given the obvious and immediate potential for
confusion, annoyance and bad PR...

--
John Band

The TfL Single Fare finder suggests it is priced as such - and I am
led to believe (perhaps wrongly) that the data used by that facility
matches that of the fares tables in the Oyster database.

I wouldn't rely on that finder being correct. I tried it a few months
ago for a journey via the WLL to Kensington and it offered a (not via
Zone 1) PAYG fare despite the route being invalid for PAYG.
snip

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

wrote in message
ps.com...
On Nov 12, 5:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:
the passenger actually took.

But I'm afraid to say I disagree with your idea anyway. What your
proposal boils down to in essence is to use an Oyster as if it were a
cashless card system, and so use the PAYG balance to buy a ticket.
Instead I'd say that if you want a Day Travelcard you can just as well
buy it with cash or a debit/credit card.

The preferable situation would be for all lines in London to accept
Oyster PAYG, and then all passengers could benefit from daily price
capping (which is in a way akin to a Day Travelcard except you don't
have to plan ahead before you start travelling that day).

I agree that the preferable situation is for PAYG to just work
everywhere but I was just imagining a temporary measure.

Every out of zone station could have a machine whos only job is to put
a one day travel card onto a PAYG oyster card.

This will avoid the need to queue and surely must be faster than using
cash or card in the automatic machines.

That way, if you buy a day travelcard and don't happen to do enough journeys
to use up the cost, you've wasted your money. PAYG capping is 50p less than
the one day travelcard value, If you don't do enough jouneys to bring in the
cap, you'll still have saved money over a travelcard.

Paul

Oyster routing logic on the NLL [was: London Overground from 11 Nov 2007]
 

On 13 Nov, 18:58, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 07:15:46 -0800, Mizter T
wrote:

On 13 Nov, 14:22, John B wrote:
On 13 Nov, 15:07, wrote:

Counting the zones isn't always reliable or accurate, as you and
others have pointed out in this thread. (The NLL route from Richmond
to Stratford doesn't go through zone one, but is priced as if it
does.)

Have we established that this is the case, or is it just conjecture
based on the status quo pre-London Overground? I'd be surprised if it
were [the case], given the obvious and immediate potential for
confusion, annoyance and bad PR...

--
John Band

The TfL Single Fare finder suggests it is priced as such - and I am
led to believe (perhaps wrongly) that the data used by that facility
matches that of the fares tables in the Oyster database.

I wouldn't rely on that finder being correct. I tried it a few months
ago for a journey via the WLL to Kensington and it offered a (not via
Zone 1) PAYG fare despite the route being invalid for PAYG.
snip


Aha... well, don't be so sure! I've been intending to post what I'm
about write for ages, but never did. Please read on...

I can say with some authority that despite PAYG not yet being valid on
the NLL at the time the Tfl Fares finder was right and that's what you
would have been charged. Back in February or March of this year (I
forget exactly when) I made a Highbury & Islington to Queen's Park
journey via Victoria and Bakerloo lines changing at Oxford Circus. I
had already reached my zone 1&2 daily cap so was totally bemused when
an extra 60p was deducted from my balance - i.e. my cap was now at the
zones 1-4 level of £5.20 rather than £4.60, despite the fact I hadn't
been in zone 3 - indeed, there was no valid route from H&I to QP
through zone 3.

Later on the penny dropped that the Oyster PAYG database had already
been updated to take account of PAYG on the NLL, either it was being
tested or perhaps there was something to the talk that PAYG might go
live whilst the line was still under Silverlink control.

Around that time I was travelling on the NLL a lot, so I did some
experiments. I'd like to make absolutely clear that at all times when
doing this I was travelling with a valid Travelcard season ticket that
covered all the applicable zones.

So I consulted the TfL Single Fares finder and worked out what the
system defined as via-Z1 journeys and those that avoided Z1 - and to
the best of my recollection they're the same today as they were then.
I then tried touching in and out at some of the main stations where
there were already gates activated for PAYG - i.e. stations shared
with an LU line. I did only try this by making journeys that were
defined as non-Z1 (i.e. what the TfL Fare finder said would cost £1),
and I'm pretty sure the journeys I made were Stratford to H&I, H&I to
Willesden Jn, and Willesden Jn to Kensington Olympia and separately
Willesden Jn to West Brompton. All of these journeys were charged at
£1.

I did them on an unregistered Oyster card, so I haven't got any
screenshots of my online journey history, but I did take a few mobile
phone photos of LU ticket machines displaying the journey history
which displayed what I'd done. Unfortunately that mobile phone ended
up meeting a watery demise (not down the loo thankfully) so after
doing all that I have no proof!

I would have come here and documented it at the time - indeed that's
why I actually conducted these experiments - but unfortunately life
suddenly got a bit hectic around then and contributing to a newsgroup
shifted down my list of priorities somewhat.

So there we go. I suppose my 'findings' from earlier this year aren't
solid proof about how other journeys might have been routed, but in my
mind there a good enough basis for me to think that the TfL Fares
finder is an accurate reflection of the current routing logic that's
at work inside TfL's big Oyster database.

One last thing - it would seem that in addition to the "Some journeys
have been defined as requiring travel via Zone 1 and will be charged
and capped accordingly, irrespective of the actual route taken"
statement (taken from the TfL Fares booklet), I've discovered that
"some journeys might also be defined as requiring travel via zone 3
and charged and capped accordingly" (a statement *not* taken from the
TfL Fares booklet). In the particular instance of a Highbury &
Islington to Queen's Park journey, this problem would be nullified if
Hampstead Heath was moved to zone 2 and Willesden Jn became a zone 2/3
station (a change which might well be on its way). However there might
be wider implications for other routes.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 19:45:30 -0000,
Paul Scott wrote:

wrote in message
ps.com...
On Nov 12, 5:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:
the passenger actually took.

But I'm afraid to say I disagree with your idea anyway. What your
proposal boils down to in essence is to use an Oyster as if it were a
cashless card system, and so use the PAYG balance to buy a ticket.
Instead I'd say that if you want a Day Travelcard you can just as well
buy it with cash or a debit/credit card.

The preferable situation would be for all lines in London to accept
Oyster PAYG, and then all passengers could benefit from daily price
capping (which is in a way akin to a Day Travelcard except you don't
have to plan ahead before you start travelling that day).

I agree that the preferable situation is for PAYG to just work
everywhere but I was just imagining a temporary measure.

Every out of zone station could have a machine whos only job is to put
a one day travel card onto a PAYG oyster card.

This will avoid the need to queue and surely must be faster than using
cash or card in the automatic machines.

That way, if you buy a day travelcard and don't happen to do enough journeys
to use up the cost, you've wasted your money. PAYG capping is 50p less than
the one day travelcard value, If you don't do enough jouneys to bring in the
cap, you'll still have saved money over a travelcard.

But I can use a ODTC from Watford Junction. I can't use PAYG unless I
limit myself to the slow train to Euston.

At this point in time I'm not asking for anything more than the ability
to put the ticket I would buy anyway onto my PAYG oyster rather than
having a separate paper ticket. I'd like that when people come to visit
and we go into London, I could have some spare PAYG oyster cards that I
could give them that could then quickly have a ODTC put onto them.
Instead we have to leave early enough to queue to buy paper tickets
(because you cannot rely on the automatic machines working)

Tim.


--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/

Oyster routing logic on the NLL [was: London Overground from11 Nov 2007]
 

Well, I found something weird yesterday. The journey from Hampstead
Heath to Whitechapel is shown by the Single Fare Finder as costing £1,
so evidently is not regarded as a via Zone 1 journey. I don't know if
that's because the expected route is via Stratford then Central and
District Lines, or if it's anticipating the extended East London Line.
Anyway, this is a convenient replacement for my most usual tube journey
(Belsize Park to Aldgate or Aldgate East), it's half the price, and as
an added benefit it allows me to avoid the nightmare of the Northern
Line, so I thought I should give it a try.

I decided out of curiosity to go via West Hampstead. I thought this
would be an interesting experiment because I would have to touch out and
touch in at West Hampstead, so the system would know I had taken the
Jubilee Line from West Hampstead and therefore had travelled through
zone 1. When I touched out at West Hampstead Overground the gate showed
a £1 charge, which would be correct for terminating the journey there.
I crossed the road to the Jubilee Line station, touched in again and
travelled on to Whitechapel. At the Oyster gate there it again showed
£1, which judging by the remaining balance was the same £1. It worked!

On the way home I decided again to travel via West Hampstead. Touching
out at West Hampstead Jubilee Line, the gate showed a charge of £2 -
correct if terminating there. Now, I thought, this feels strange - by
travelling on from West Hampstead to Hampstead Heath it's going to
refund me £1. But it didn't. The gate at Hampstead Heath also showed a
charge of £2 for the completed journey, which I confirmed today on the
journey log. I thought maybe it would apply a refund overnight, but it
didn't do that either.

So, the system can make different charges depending on which direction
you travel. It just doesn't make sense to me. And apart from the
directional assymetry, £2 simply can't be a correct charge from a Zone 2
station to a Zone 3 - it should be either £1 or £2.50. I can't believe
the anomaly is intentional, and I wonder if they're aware of it.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:13:56 +0000 (UTC), Tim Woodall
wrote:

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 19:45:30 -0000,
Paul Scott wrote:

wrote in message
ps.com...
On Nov 12, 5:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:
the passenger actually took.

But I'm afraid to say I disagree with your idea anyway. What your
proposal boils down to in essence is to use an Oyster as if it were a
cashless card system, and so use the PAYG balance to buy a ticket.
Instead I'd say that if you want a Day Travelcard you can just as well
buy it with cash or a debit/credit card.

The preferable situation would be for all lines in London to accept
Oyster PAYG, and then all passengers could benefit from daily price
capping (which is in a way akin to a Day Travelcard except you don't
have to plan ahead before you start travelling that day).

I agree that the preferable situation is for PAYG to just work
everywhere but I was just imagining a temporary measure.

Every out of zone station could have a machine whos only job is to put
a one day travel card onto a PAYG oyster card.

This will avoid the need to queue and surely must be faster than using
cash or card in the automatic machines.

That way, if you buy a day travelcard and don't happen to do enough journeys
to use up the cost, you've wasted your money. PAYG capping is 50p less than
the one day travelcard value, If you don't do enough jouneys to bring in the
cap, you'll still have saved money over a travelcard.

But I can use a ODTC from Watford Junction. I can't use PAYG unless I
limit myself to the slow train to Euston.

You can use PAYG on a Southern train to Harrow, wait 7-ish minutes
then jump on a following London Midland train to Euston. I suspect
many people will decide that "a train is a train" or won't recognise
the difference anyway, resulting in journeys being attempted all the
way on the main line Euston trains.
snip

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

Charles Ellson wrote:

You can use PAYG on a Southern train to Harrow, wait 7-ish minutes
then jump on a following London Midland train to Euston. I suspect
many people will decide that "a train is a train" or won't recognise
the difference anyway, resulting in journeys being attempted all the
way on the main line Euston trains.

I don't tend to venture out to Watford Junction much, but just how are
passengers supposed to tell at a glance which are and aren't the valid
trains? Many TOCs seem to have numerous liveries in use due to stock not
having been repainted or a change of mind mid franchise and so forth. And a
lot of announcements don't give the TOC. So how will the passenger at
Watford Junction who knows they can use PAYG "on trains" or "on overground"
(meaning "national rail") know which train to Harrow & Wealdstone is and
isn't valid?