London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

umpston wrote:
On Nov 6, 5:53 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Ianigsy" wrote

This is the sort of thing which puts me off having one- to put things
into perspective, I live in Yorkshire and travel down to London
probably twice a year on average. I like the idea of not having to
queue at Kings Cross for a Travelcard (especially as Trainline et al
only seem to be able to sell Z1-2 ones as add-ons) and buy another one
every morning. Trouble is, when I come down in about ten days' time,
I may need to go to Walthamstow on the Sunday and the Victoria Line's
closed, so I'll have to use One from Liverpool Street instead- so I'll
presumably need a paper one that day and half the object of getting
one is defeated.
Liverpool Street - Walthamstow Central is one (no pun intended) of the
National Rail routes on which Oyster PAYG is already accepted (though not at
intermediate stations).http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx
Peter

It occurs to me that the 'Overground' network branding would make more
sense if it consisted of all non-LUL lines where Oyster PAYG is
accepted. This would be much easier for visitors to London (and
residents for that matter) to understand.

3-4 years ago a London "Overground Network" was launched with a few
photos in the local papers and some shiney but largely pointless branded
signage at National Rail stations. It is lucky it was so underwhelming
and soon fizzled out, else it would add to the confusion. I've a feeling
there are still some ON signs around, which won't help.


--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Nov 6, 6:56 pm, Arthur Figgis wrote:
umpston wrote:
On Nov 6, 5:53 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Ianigsy" wrote

This is the sort of thing which puts me off having one- to put things
into perspective, I live in Yorkshire and travel down to London
probably twice a year on average. I like the idea of not having to
queue at Kings Cross for a Travelcard (especially as Trainline et al
only seem to be able to sell Z1-2 ones as add-ons) and buy another one
every morning. Trouble is, when I come down in about ten days' time,
I may need to go to Walthamstow on the Sunday and the Victoria Line's
closed, so I'll have to use One from Liverpool Street instead- so I'll
presumably need a paper one that day and half the object of getting
one is defeated.
Liverpool Street - Walthamstow Central is one (no pun intended) of the
National Rail routes on which Oyster PAYG is already accepted (though not at
intermediate stations).http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx
Peter

It occurs to me that the 'Overground' network branding would make more
sense if it consisted of all non-LUL lines where Oyster PAYG is
accepted. This would be much easier for visitors to London (and
residents for that matter) to understand.

3-4 years ago a London "Overground Network" was launched with a few
photos in the local papers and some shiney but largely pointless branded
signage at National Rail stations. It is lucky it was so underwhelming
and soon fizzled out, else it would add to the confusion. I've a feeling
there are still some ON signs around, which won't help.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Thanks Arthur, I'd forgotten that! However something like my idea
might possibly be in TfL's long term thinking since, according to this
quote from wikipedia, TFL's medium-term aspiration is for the new
'London Overground' to be "expanded to cover other National Rail
services in London and the South-East, either by direct TFL operation
through a concession-holder (as with the ex-Silverlink routes) or by a
TOC agreeing to operate under the London Overground brand"
Quoted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overground_Network

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

If you could buy train tickets at tube
stations things would be much better. Basically the whole tube system
is a blot on the UK public transport network. Having all these
stations refusing to issue through tickets to the rest of the rail
network seems amazingly old-fashioned.

Francis

Having got myself tied up in knots earlier on, I've now ordered an
Oyster card so we'll have to see what happens.

I think the thing is that Oyster seems to be a step forward
technologically but a step backward (to the days before Travelcards)
in terms of how the PAYG side works. It should work in my favour-
I'll save time at Kings Cross on the way down, and it saves me having
to have cash for ticket machines every morning, and as I plan to have
a trip on the East London Line I'll certainly get some use out of it.
But there must be plenty of overseas tourists who find themselves
bemused that they can't buy a ticket at the underground station next
to their hotel to take them to, say, Windsor, but they could buy a day
travelcard at Windsor which would cover the whole of London.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:16:48 -0000, "Peter Masson"
wrote:


"Ken" wrote

But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the
"Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change.

Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford
Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County)
between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere?
Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in view
of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction.

The specific references to "North London Railway" and the map on:-
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ground-map.pdf
would seem to exclude Southern and the non-DC route from Euston to
Watford.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 14:03:14 -0800, Ianigsy wrote:

If you could buy train tickets at tube
stations things would be much better. Basically the whole tube system
is a blot on the UK public transport network. Having all these
stations refusing to issue through tickets to the rest of the rail
network seems amazingly old-fashioned.

I think the thing is that Oyster seems to be a step forward
technologically but a step backward (to the days before Travelcards)
in terms of how the PAYG side works. It should work in my favour-
I'll save time at Kings Cross on the way down, and it saves me having
to have cash for ticket machines every morning, and as I plan to have
a trip on the East London Line I'll certainly get some use out of it.
But there must be plenty of overseas tourists who find themselves
bemused that they can't buy a ticket at the underground station next
to their hotel to take them to, say, Windsor, but they could buy a day
travelcard at Windsor which would cover the whole of London.

You can buy a ticket to Windsor at any LU station.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Nov 6, 1:52 pm, Ken wrote:

But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the
"Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change.

Does this mean that someone with Oyster PAYG could get through the
barriers at Clapham Junction and Richmond or Wimbledon, although they
couldn't legally take a direct train between them? If they did, would
they be charged as if they'd changed at West Brompton and take the
district line?

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:50:21 +0000,
Charles Ellson wrote:
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:16:48 -0000, "Peter Masson"
wrote:


"Ken" wrote

But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the
"Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change.

Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford
Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County)
between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere?
Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in view
of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction.

The specific references to "North London Railway" and the map on:-
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ground-map.pdf
would seem to exclude Southern and the non-DC route from Euston to
Watford.

It's going to be a nightmare and people are going to get very confused
if that is the case. :-(

There are validators in the subway at the entrances to platforms 7 and 9
so it certainly seems that the long term intention is to enable oyster
to be used on the mainline trains from WJ. The only use for these
validators I can think of is for people coming from platform 11. I've
not noticed if there's a validator near the carpark entrance on platform
9. I'm assuming there will be validators near platforms 1-4 (if I
remember tomorrow I'll take a look) otherwise the ones in the subway
could also be for people changing from mainline to DC line at WJ - but
that seems crazy - people running for a train are bound to forget to
validate in the subway.

My current WJ-Euston season ticket was 2064GBP.

On a quick look at the current timetables the "best" PAYG route would
be:

07:40 depart WJ
07:56 arrive H&W
07:58 depart H&W on the train that departed WJ at 07:52 (so adding 12
minutes to the journey time)

This would cost 4:50 PAYG assuming WJ is in zone A like Watford (Met).

Assume return before 7pm and the daily return fare is 9GBP.

Assume 220 days and thats 1980GBP so very little in it.

I very rarely return before 7pm (and often depart before 7am) which
would reduce the fare to 6GBP/day or 1320GBP

(In this case the best route I can see would depart WJ at 06:20 joining
with the 06:38 WJ departure rather than the (non-stop) 06:42 departure
so 26 minutes longer - the 06:25 gets in at 06:46 so anyone doing this
is going to see two trains go past that they could have been on and
either have had more time in bed or more time in London)

It's going to become a game for people to either be close to the guard
when a train departs Euston (so they get their PAYG checked before H&W)
or far away from the guard when the train departs WJ so the guard
doesn't see them until after H&W. (and of course anybody who wants to do
this should make sure they get on a H&W stopping train and probably know
the arrival time of the DC line so they can claim they were in the
toilet to account for the timings ;-)

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On 6 Nov, 23:43, Tim Woodall wrote:
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:50:21 +0000,
Charles Ellson wrote:





On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:16:48 -0000, "Peter Masson"
wrote:

"Ken" wrote

But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the
"Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change.

Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford
Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County)
between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere?
Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in view
of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction.

The specific references to "North London Railway" and the map on:-
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ground-map.pdf
would seem to exclude Southern and the non-DC route from Euston to
Watford.

It's going to be a nightmare and people are going to get very confused
if that is the case. :-(

There are validators in the subway at the entrances to platforms 7 and 9
so it certainly seems that the long term intention is to enable oyster
to be used on the mainline trains from WJ. The only use for these
validators I can think of is for people coming from platform 11. I've
not noticed if there's a validator near the carpark entrance on platform
9. I'm assuming there will be validators near platforms 1-4 (if I
remember tomorrow I'll take a look) otherwise the ones in the subway
could also be for people changing from mainline to DC line at WJ - but
that seems crazy - people running for a train are bound to forget to
validate in the subway.

My current WJ-Euston season ticket was 2064GBP.

On a quick look at the current timetables the "best" PAYG route would
be:

07:40 depart WJ
07:56 arrive H&W
07:58 depart H&W on the train that departed WJ at 07:52 (so adding 12
minutes to the journey time)

This would cost 4:50 PAYG assuming WJ is in zone A like Watford (Met).

Assume return before 7pm and the daily return fare is 9GBP.

Assume 220 days and thats 1980GBP so very little in it.

I very rarely return before 7pm (and often depart before 7am) which
would reduce the fare to 6GBP/day or 1320GBP

(In this case the best route I can see would depart WJ at 06:20 joining
with the 06:38 WJ departure rather than the (non-stop) 06:42 departure
so 26 minutes longer - the 06:25 gets in at 06:46 so anyone doing this
is going to see two trains go past that they could have been on and
either have had more time in bed or more time in London)

It's going to become a game for people to either be close to the guard
when a train departs Euston (so they get their PAYG checked before H&W)
or far away from the guard when the train departs WJ so the guard
doesn't see them until after H&W. (and of course anybody who wants to do
this should make sure they get on a H&W stopping train and probably know
the arrival time of the DC line so they can claim they were in the
toilet to account for the timings ;-)

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There is plenty of talk about Oyster PAYG being available on London
Overground but very little in writing about the actual fares to be
charged for PAYG. The assumption seems to be that the fares will be
the same as those on the underground under PAYG. Is this actually the
case?

Looking at the single fare finder on the TfL website - some fares
appear to be set with connections via London Overground in mind, a
single from Richmond to Harrow & Wealdstone is £1.80 peak, £1.00 off-
peak. From Gunnersbury to Stonebridge Park, the fare is £1.00 at all
times. Given that these journeys aren't possible other than via Zone
1 on PAYG at the moment, I guess that underground level Oyster fares
will apply more generally. Interestingly, journeys to Highbury &
Islington, Blackhorse Road, Stratford etc are still at the "via Zone
1" level.

Can anyone explain which route justifies Harrow and Wealdstone to
Harrow-on-the-Hill being £1.00 at all times according to the fare
finder? Even if you go via Brondesbury post 11 November, it can't be
done without going from Zone 5 to Zone 5 via Zone 2.

Does the single fare finder work by matching up pairs of stations and
selecting a fare or by looking simply at the zones of the two
stations?


Jonathan

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On 6 Nov, 23:07, brixtonite wrote:
On Nov 6, 1:52 pm, Ken wrote:

But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the
"Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change.

Does this mean that someone with Oyster PAYG could get through the
barriers at Clapham Junction and Richmond or Wimbledon, although they
couldn't legally take a direct train between them? If they did, would
they be charged as if they'd changed at West Brompton and take the
district line?

The simple answer is to allow for the time the indirect route would
take. I think that it would be unlikely for someone to be able to make
the journey from Clapham Junction to Wimbledon via West Brompton in
less than 20 minutes whereas the direct route is well under half
that. Make the ticket gates charge a penalty for anyone making the
journey in less than 20 minutes.

No different to the existing situation between Paddington suburban and
Ealing Broadway, Ealing Broadway and Greenford, Wimbledon and
Richmond, New Cross or New Cross Gate and (say) Farringdon where
exising access is shared between the underground and National Rail.

Jonathan

Jonathan

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 13:00:26 -0800, umpston
wrote:

Quoted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overground_Network

This link led me to [[London Overground]], which makes an interesting
point:

"When the [East London Railway] extension opens, the London Overground
will [...] be below the London Underground part of Whitechapel tube
station" (!)