London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:49:26 -0000, Andy wrote:

On Nov 8, 1:48 pm, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 15:44:48 -0800, wrote:
On 7 Nov, 17:10, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 15:32:40 -0000, "Paul Scott"

wrote:

"Charles Ellson" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:16:48 -0000, "Peter Masson"
wrote:

"Ken" wrote

But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the
"Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change.

Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford
Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County)
between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere?
Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in
view
of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction.

The specific references to "North London Railway" and the map on:-
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ground-map.pdf
would seem to exclude Southern and the non-DC route from Euston to
Watford.

That doesn't necessarily follow at all. If you drew a map of the
Metropolitan line without showing the Chiltern route, would that allow an
inference to be drawn about PAYG availability on Chiltern?

An inference is not always a certainty either way (and it depends on
the actual purpose of such a map). However, the information so far
published refers specifically to the "North London Railway" which does
not include the Southern franchise to/from Watford Junction. AFAIAA
that franchise is already a specific exemption from PAYG and appears
to remain so in the absence of further advice of any change.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Presumably the specific exemption for Oyster PAYG on Southern you are
referring to is that Oyster PAYG cannot be used on the Southern trains
which stop at Harrow & Wealdstone and Wembley Central even though
Oyster PAYG is valid on the DC line over that stretch or are you
thinking of something else?

No it isnt. PAYG is unavailable on the WLL
(see p.11 on
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa..._out_of_Oyster...)
and using that route requires use of a Travelcard or a non-zonal
ticket. This prevents use of PAYG from Kensington to Wembley Central
(Southern), Clapham Junction or Willesden Junction (Vomitlink).
snip

Ahh, the delights of changing operators!

From Sunday, the WLL will be included in PAYG as all the former
Silverlink Metro routes will be from day 1. Currently, however, it is
unclear as to whether Oyster PAYG is / will be available from Harrow &
Wealdstone to Wembley Central on the Southern trains. It certainly is
available on both the DC trains and the silverlink county trains that
stop at both stations (only a couple of night trains for county). If
you read the TFL leaflet referred to, it implies that Southern would
accept PAYG as operators are not mentioned on page 11, however, the
National Railway website only states Silverlink.

The TfL leaflet seems to be operator-transparent by quoting only
routes and by implication involves whoever is the franchise-holder at
the relevant time. Are the Oyster arrangements a matter between TfL
and individual operators or between TfL and the relevant rep for the
DfT/OPRAF/etc. ?

The map referred to earlier in the thread applied to the post 11th
November situation, as London Overground are shown as running the
trains, not national rail.

National Rail don't operate trains, it is a marketing name of ATOC who
currently have a "London Schemes" page on their website which is blank
(but maybe won't be in a few days' time?). London Overground** is
likewise a marketing name for services to be operated by TfL who
currently are not listed as members of ATOC; the physical operator of
London Overground services has been announced as MTR-Laing :-
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...ntre/5328.aspx

** There are a company registrations for "London Overground Ltd" (No.
3697180, in liquidation) and "London Overground Rail Operations Ltd"
(No. 5668786). Wikipedia claims that the former is a TOC which will
take over the North London Railway franchise which is possibly news to
Companies House; the latter now appears to be the current version (a
joint venture company) of the MTR-Laing franchise holding above. We
thus have the usual scope for confusion between "registered as" and
"trading as" names (the company in liquidation seems totally
unconnected as it traces back to a terraced house in Halifax).

Whether the extension of PAYG to Clapham
Junction for the London Overground trains will mean that Southern will
also accept it from Harrow - Clapham remains to be seen. Personally, I
think that they will take it, as London Overground will be the main
service provider for the route and it will be quite difficult to stop
people using PAYG on Southern trains between Olympia and West Brompton
and through to Clapham Junction.

As a local service it would seem to be a natural development of the
TfL/Oyster/Travelcard arrangements for the Southern service to be
included in the PAYG payment system. Isn't there something within
franchising arrangements where an operator providing services within
the area of another "inherits" an obligation to carry the passengers
on the same tickets ?

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

"Charles Ellson" wrote in message
...

National Rail don't operate trains, it is a marketing name of ATOC who
currently have a "London Schemes" page on their website which is blank
(but maybe won't be in a few days' time?).

I don't think that part of the ATOC site is available to the public, it only
contains one section (in the menu bar) called 'PAYG Incomplete Journeys',
which is restricted access, like much of the site...

London Overground** is
likewise a marketing name for services to be operated by TfL who
currently are not listed as members of ATOC; the physical operator of
London Overground services has been announced as MTR-Laing :-
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...ntre/5328.aspx


The National Rail list of TOCs has quite a bit on London Overground though,
maybe they'll join ATOC in due course...

http://nationalrail.co.uk/companies/LO.html

The section on upcomimg franchise changes also has a summary of LO at the
end of:

http://nationalrail.co.uk/tocs_maps/...nges_2007.html

With respect to PAYG on Southern/WLL, isn't the reported provision of
readers on platforms 2, 16 & 17 something of a giveaway?

Paul

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

This from this morning's Watford Observer. Confusion reigns, it would
seem.

THC

---

Confusion over Silverlink handover

http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/dis...ha ndover.php

A major shake-up of rail services at Watford Junction, which takes
effect on Sunday, has been blighted by confusion.

Angry commuters say obtaining information about just how much fares
will cost under the new system has been almost impossible.

And now doubt surrounds when - and if - Oyster cards will be able to
be used.

advertisementOn Sunday, Silverlink services between Watford Junction
and London Euston will be taken over by London Overground, a new
service operated by Transport for London (TFL), and London Midland.

According to London Underground, passengers using the stopping service
from Watford Junction to London Euston will be able to use Oyster
cards and enjoy reduced fares.

However those using the fast service from Watford to London - the
majority of commuters - will have to continue using paper tickets at
Silverlink rates.

A spokesperson for London Midland, the firm which will run the fast
service from Watford Junction to London Euston, said it was in talks
to introduce Oyster cards or another smart card by 2010.

For more on this story, and more information about fare prices, see
today's Watford Observer.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

"THC" wrote in message
ups.com...
This from this morning's Watford Observer. Confusion reigns, it would
seem.

THC

---

Confusion over Silverlink handover

http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/dis...ha ndover.php

A major shake-up of rail services at Watford Junction, which takes
effect on Sunday, has been blighted by confusion.

Angry commuters say obtaining information about just how much fares
will cost under the new system has been almost impossible.


Completely predictable, but its basically down to pax 'presuming' changes
are going to occur, even when none have been announced. Most discussions
here have repeatedly touched on similar issues. The main one here is that WJ
is not currently in the zonal fares system, and you might expect regular WJ
commuters to know that already. Anyway, availability of Oyster PAYG on the
DC lines may still not result in zonal fares to WJ, just special fares
payable via PAYG, like in zones ABC&D...

Paul

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Nov 8, 5:10 pm, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:49:26 -0000, Andy wrote:

Ahh, the delights of changing operators!

From Sunday, the WLL will be included in PAYG as all the former
Silverlink Metro routes will be from day 1. Currently, however, it is
unclear as to whether Oyster PAYG is / will be available from Harrow &
Wealdstone to Wembley Central on the Southern trains. It certainly is
available on both the DC trains and the silverlink county trains that
stop at both stations (only a couple of night trains for county). If
you read the TFL leaflet referred to, it implies that Southern would
accept PAYG as operators are not mentioned on page 11, however, the
National Railway website only states Silverlink.

The TfL leaflet seems to be operator-transparent by quoting only
routes and by implication involves whoever is the franchise-holder at
the relevant time. Are the Oyster arrangements a matter between TfL
and individual operators or between TfL and the relevant rep for the
DfT/OPRAF/etc. ?

The map referred to earlier in the thread applied to the post 11th
November situation, as London Overground are shown as running the
trains, not national rail.

National Rail don't operate trains, it is a marketing name of ATOC who
currently have a "London Schemes" page on their website which is blank
(but maybe won't be in a few days' time?). London Overground** is
likewise a marketing name for services to be operated by TfL who
currently are not listed as members of ATOC; the physical operator of
London Overground services has been announced as MTR-Laing :-http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/5328.aspx


Yes, National Rail don't operate trains, but I suggest that you tell
TfL this, as their Oyster documentation and maps always seems to refer
to National Rail trains. If a person were only to look at the TfL
leaflets, they might think that Oyster PAYG is available on some
trains where it doesn't appear to be if you refer to the National Rail
information. The example being Harrow - Wembley Central on the few
Southern peak hour services

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Nov 7, 2:19 pm, "Alan Osborn" wrote:
wrote in message

ups.com...



On 6 Nov, 23:07, brixtonite wrote:
On Nov 6, 1:52 pm, Ken wrote:

But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the
"Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change.

Does this mean that someone with Oyster PAYG could get through the
barriers at Clapham Junction and Richmond or Wimbledon, although they
couldn't legally take a direct train between them? If they did, would
they be charged as if they'd changed at West Brompton and take the
district line?

The simple answer is to allow for the time the indirect route would
take. I think that it would be unlikely for someone to be able to make
the journey from Clapham Junction to Wimbledon via West Brompton in
less than 20 minutes whereas the direct route is well under half
that. Make the ticket gates charge a penalty for anyone making the
journey in less than 20 minutes.

No different to the existing situation between Paddington suburban and
Ealing Broadway, Ealing Broadway and Greenford, Wimbledon and
Richmond, New Cross or New Cross Gate and (say) Farringdon where
exising access is shared between the underground and National Rail.

Jonathan

Jonathan

How far out of London can you buy a combined London return fare inclusive of
a Travelcard. When I travel to London from Oxford I always ask for a London
Travelcard, that gives me a return fare to London plus an all zone
travelcard.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well at one time it was from anywhere in the former Network SE area.

These days it's expanded a bit with some TOCs - for example I think
FGW do them from Bristol and probably a lot of other places, and
Chiltern go further out than Banbury. Not necessarily any cheaper
than buying the tickets separately. Depending on the time of travel
quite the opposite sometimes.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Nov 9, 10:47 am, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"THC" wrote in message

ups.com...



This from this morning's Watford Observer. Confusion reigns, it would
seem.

THC

---

Confusion over Silverlink handover

http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/dis...confusion_over...

A major shake-up of rail services at Watford Junction, which takes
effect on Sunday, has been blighted by confusion.

Angry commuters say obtaining information about just how much fares
will cost under the new system has been almost impossible.

Completely predictable, but its basically down to pax 'presuming' changes
are going to occur, even when none have been announced. Most discussions
here have repeatedly touched on similar issues. The main one here is that WJ
is not currently in the zonal fares system, and you might expect regular WJ
commuters to know that already. Anyway, availability of Oyster PAYG on the
DC lines may still not result in zonal fares to WJ, just special fares
payable via PAYG, like in zones ABC&D...

Paul

So currently I can buy a ticket watford junction to harrow and
wealdstone and then get on any train (that stops at H&W) without any
issue.

Presumably, on Sunday I will be able to do exactly the same, it will
make no difference?

But I can't use oyster to pay for that journey on the fast trains (I
asked at Euston last night) but I can use oyster to pay from H&W to
Euston currently. Will I be able to use my paper ticket on the DC line
still?

So the oyster fare is going to be exactly the same price as the
mainline fare but I have to make sure I buy a paper ticket and not use
oyster for the journey.

It isn't clear to me what is and isn't going to be allowed. If it's
all so obvious then why hasn't someone published it already. The cynic
in me thinks its whoever is taking over the mainline and London
underground rubbing their hands in glee at the penalty fares they are
going to collect over the next few months.

My season ticket expires on 5th December. What is the fare structure
going to be in the new year. Will WJ be zoned then? Will oyster be
valid from WJ on the fast trains? What will the prices be or at least
what will the zones be?

Tim.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

wrote in message
oups.com...
On Nov 9, 10:47 am, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Completely predictable, but its basically down to pax 'presuming' changes
are going to occur, even when none have been announced. Most discussions
here have repeatedly touched on similar issues. The main one here is that
WJ
is not currently in the zonal fares system, and you might expect regular
WJ
commuters to know that already. Anyway, availability of Oyster PAYG on
the
DC lines may still not result in zonal fares to WJ, just special fares
payable via PAYG, like in zones ABC&D...

Paul

So currently I can buy a ticket watford junction to harrow and
wealdstone and then get on any train (that stops at H&W) without any
issue.

Presumably, on Sunday I will be able to do exactly the same, it will
make no difference?

Seems reasonable - LO is still a TOC just like Silverlink Metro was, there
timetables are still in the NR timetable for next year, and NR fares are
still shown in the usual NR web planners...

But I can't use oyster to pay for that journey on the fast trains (I
asked at Euston last night) but I can use oyster to pay from H&W to
Euston currently. Will I be able to use my paper ticket on the DC line
still?

So the oyster fare is going to be exactly the same price as the
mainline fare but I have to make sure I buy a paper ticket and not use
oyster for the journey.

That's a reasonable assumption, unless an Oyster special introductory fare
is offered, as has been mentioned in the past - but maybe that'll be NLL
only, where other TOCs aren't involved...

It isn't clear to me what is and isn't going to be allowed. If it's
all so obvious then why hasn't someone published it already. The cynic
in me thinks its whoever is taking over the mainline and London
underground rubbing their hands in glee at the penalty fares they are
going to collect over the next few months.

Perhaps the point is simply that nothing about the actual fares or validity
will change, so that's all that needs announcing?

My season ticket expires on 5th December. What is the fare structure
going to be in the new year. Will WJ be zoned then? Will oyster be
valid from WJ on the fast trains? What will the prices be or at least
what will the zones be?


Good questions, but at least some could have been equally relevant even if
the DC lines weren't transferred to TfL. I still think a lot of pax are
presuming that everything will change on Sunday, whereas all the evidence so
far is that it will more or less stay the same, barring Oyster prepay where
available, and many of the possible changes will happen in January.

Paul

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Nov 9, 12:57 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Perhaps the point is simply that nothing about the actual fares or validity
will change, so that's all that needs announcing?

But it will change, that's the point. From Sunday you WILL be able to
use Oyster to/from Watford junction. Currently (I think) you can use
it between WJ and H&W - could be Hatch End - and I think you CAN'T use
it at some of the intermediate stops.

So people at WJ are going to see a difference. At the moment, when I
arrive at WJ in the morning I have only one way to get through the
barriers (my Gold Card), on Monday I will have two ways.

Will return tickets still be available for things like WJ-Hatch End?
My partner does this regularly - IIRC the return costs 10p more than
the single - or will it be singles only - in which case she might as
well use an oyster card.

Tim.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Nov 9, 12:57 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Perhaps the point is simply that nothing about the actual fares or
validity
will change, so that's all that needs announcing?

But it will change, that's the point. From Sunday you WILL be able to
use Oyster to/from Watford junction. Currently (I think) you can use
it between WJ and H&W - could be Hatch End - and I think you CAN'T use
it at some of the intermediate stops.

So people at WJ are going to see a difference. At the moment, when I
arrive at WJ in the morning I have only one way to get through the
barriers (my Gold Card), on Monday I will have two ways.

Will return tickets still be available for things like WJ-Hatch End?
My partner does this regularly - IIRC the return costs 10p more than
the single - or will it be singles only - in which case she might as
well use an oyster card.


Yes - all the normal fares (£3.10 CDR?) are still available, using the NR
planner - as I've said before, LO is still part of the rail network. There
must be other lines where people have to decide whether to buy a NR style
return ticket, or use Oyster - those outer bits of the Met/Chiltern for
instance?

Paul

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Nov 9, 1:55 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Yes - all the normal fares (£3.10 CDR?) are still available, using the NR
planner - as I've said before, LO is still part of the rail network. There
must be other lines where people have to decide whether to buy a NR style
return ticket, or use Oyster - those outer bits of the Met/Chiltern for
instance?

How will capping work? How does it work on those other lines?

I still don't understand why there isn't some web pages somewhere
laying all this out. Presumably someone has already thought about all
this - or are they waiting to see which passengers complain before
deciding what to do?

I presume (given that you've said everything is charged exactly as
before) that you'll get a Zsomething-6 cap plus singles between Hatch
End and whatever stations you're visiting. Or maybe any journey that
starts/terminates north of Z6 will be charged at NR rates? After all,
at the moment, if you have an oyster card that's reached it's cap
you'll have to leave the DC line at H&W and then buy a NR single to
complete your journey. If you buy a NR single from say Wembley Central
you'll not get a discount for having a capped oyster card. And if you
don't touch out at H&W you'll get an unresolved journey.

At weekends there are often lots of people making these short journeys
on the DC line. (Maybe there are during the week as well but I'm
almost never on the DC line outside of a weekend). So on Sunday you're
going to get lots of people asking these questions.

(Actually, my guess is that oyster won't be ready at these stations at
the weekend so the information hasn't been published to stop people
thinking they will be able to use it)

I've got a gold card, so I can watch and see what happens but other
people currently use NR singles/returns and ODTC would like to know
the answers to some of these questions before they travel on Sunday/
Monday

Tim.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

As far as I am aware, London Overground remains part of National Rail
and normal NR fares will apply beyond Harrow & Wealdstone. The fact
that an Oyster Card can be used to pay for those fares by PAYG does
not mean that LU fares will be charged. After all, London Buses accept
Oyster PAYG but have different fares to LU.

Nor does it mean that there will be LU-style differential fares for
using Oyster PAYG as opposed to paper tickets. National Rail has not
signed up to that concept.

Were reduced fares to be brought in south of Watford Junction, under
the fares basket rules the affected franchisees would have the ability
to increase other fares by more than average to make up the
difference. So customers south of Watford would pay less whilst those
living north would suffer.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:50:08 -0800, W14_Fishbourne
wrote:

As far as I am aware, London Overground remains part of National Rail
and normal NR fares will apply beyond Harrow & Wealdstone. The fact
that an Oyster Card can be used to pay for those fares by PAYG does
not mean that LU fares will be charged. After all, London Buses accept
Oyster PAYG but have different fares to LU.

Nor does it mean that there will be LU-style differential fares for
using Oyster PAYG as opposed to paper tickets. National Rail has not
signed up to that concept.

Were reduced fares to be brought in south of Watford Junction, under
the fares basket rules the affected franchisees would have the ability
to increase other fares by more than average to make up the
difference. So customers south of Watford would pay less whilst those
living north would suffer.

An interesting question is what capacity Oyster has for charging
return fares.

For example, the fares from Harrow & Wealdstone to Watford Junction
a

CDS £3.50
SDS £3.70
CDR £3.60
SDR £5.30

(One way to do it would be for TfL could set a London Overground-only
off peak fare of £1.80, and a peak fare of £2.60)

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Nov 9, 1:55 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Yes - all the normal fares (£3.10 CDR?) are still available, using the NR
planner - as I've said before, LO is still part of the rail network.
There
must be other lines where people have to decide whether to buy a NR style
return ticket, or use Oyster - those outer bits of the Met/Chiltern for
instance?

How will capping work? How does it work on those other lines?

I still don't understand why there isn't some web pages somewhere
laying all this out. Presumably someone has already thought about all
this - or are they waiting to see which passengers complain before
deciding what to do?

Everything to do with the complexities of daily capping for the existing
zones is in the current fares leaflet, the various values are 50p less than
the equivalent day travelcard for the zones used. That explains why there
are 16 different caps for Tube/DLR...

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ckets-0709.pdf

It might reasonably be expected that this document will be republished by
Sunday - but I'm not holding my breath.
BTW, I liked the suggestion that the Oyster readers might not even work...

Paul

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Nov 9, 8:17 pm, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:

An interesting question is what capacity Oyster has for charging
return fares.

For example, the fares from Harrow & Wealdstone to Watford Junction
a

CDS £3.50
SDS £3.70
CDR £3.60
SDR £5.30



Oyster has no facility for charging return fares, nor am I aware that
one is planned. I'm not even sure if it can cope with the National
Rail switch between peak and off-peak fares yet - most of these
developments have still to be built into the Oyster system.

If you were silly enough to use Oyster to travel between H&W and WJ in
both directions, you will presumably be charged two single fares (at
least £7, maybe £7.40, instead of £5.30 peak and £3.60 off-peak).

This, of course, is due to different bits of TfL going off in
different directions - Ken and London Rail wanting to grab as many
bits of National Rail as it can as soon as it can, while Fares and
Ticketing is stuck in the LU mould and reluctant to develop Oyster to
cope without overcharging customers.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

In message .com
W14_Fishbourne wrote:

On Nov 9, 8:17 pm, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:

An interesting question is what capacity Oyster has for charging
return fares.

For example, the fares from Harrow & Wealdstone to Watford Junction
a

CDS £3.50
SDS £3.70
CDR £3.60
SDR £5.30



Oyster has no facility for charging return fares, nor am I aware that
one is planned. I'm not even sure if it can cope with the National
Rail switch between peak and off-peak fares yet - most of these
developments have still to be built into the Oyster system.

It can cope with peak and off-peak fares on the UndergrounD


--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:00:13 -0000, Andy wrote:

Yes, National Rail don't operate trains, but I suggest that you tell
TfL this, as their Oyster documentation and maps always seems to refer
to National Rail trains. If a person were only to look at the TfL
leaflets, they might think that Oyster PAYG is available on some
trains where it doesn't appear to be if you refer to the National Rail
information. The example being Harrow - Wembley Central on the few
Southern peak hour services

Are you saying that PAYG is not valid on Southern between these
stations? Where is the National Rail information that says this?

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:04:51 -0800, wrote:

(Actually, my guess is that oyster won't be ready at these stations at
the weekend so the information hasn't been published to stop people
thinking they will be able to use it)

I have to agree - I'll be pleasantly surprised if PAYG is valid beyond
Hatch End tomorrow.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Nov 10, 3:48 pm, asdf wrote:


Are you saying that PAYG is not valid on Southern between these
stations? Where is the National Rail information that says this?


See foot of page at: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...oysterservices

Oyster PAYG is not valid from Watford Junction, full stop, according
to this. Where does it say different?

London Midland will presumably set the fares from Watford Junction to
Euston, seeing as how they operate most of the through services that
customers will actually use for the journey, and they (through their
predecessors) will only have signed up to accepting Oyster when the
rest of the London area accepts it in 2009.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Nov 10, 3:36 pm, rail wrote:


It can cope with peak and off-peak fares on the UndergrounD


But on a simplistic and entirely different basis to NR fares.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

"W14_Fishbourne" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Nov 10, 3:48 pm, asdf wrote:


Are you saying that PAYG is not valid on Southern between these
stations? Where is the National Rail information that says this?


See foot of page at:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...oysterservices

Oyster PAYG is not valid from Watford Junction, full stop, according
to this. Where does it say different?

The question was about Harrow & Wealdstone to Wembley Central. That page
asserts that Oyster is accepted on Silverlink between Harrow & Wealdstone
and Euston (presumably including Silverlink County services) except at
Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead. Admittedly the page is silent about
Southern trains between H&W and Wembley Central, but the average passenger
isn't too clued up about which TOC operates which train, and a passenger who
had touched in at H&W, intending to travel to Wembley Central, and who then
found that there was a disruption on the DC line, but a Southern train which
would call at Wembley Central was just pulling in would expect to be allowed
to travel on it and touch out at Wembley.

Peter

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Nov 10, 5:01 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"W14_Fishbourne" wrote in message

oups.com... On Nov 10, 3:48 pm, asdf wrote:

Are you saying that PAYG is not valid on Southern between these
stations? Where is the National Rail information that says this?

See foot of page at:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...oysterservices

Oyster PAYG is not valid from Watford Junction, full stop, according
to this. Where does it say different?

The question was about Harrow & Wealdstone to Wembley Central. That page
asserts that Oyster is accepted on Silverlink between Harrow & Wealdstone
and Euston (presumably including Silverlink County services) except at
Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead. Admittedly the page is silent about
Southern trains between H&W and Wembley Central, but the average passenger
isn't too clued up about which TOC operates which train, and a passenger who
had touched in at H&W, intending to travel to Wembley Central, and who then
found that there was a disruption on the DC line, but a Southern train which
would call at Wembley Central was just pulling in would expect to be allowed
to travel on it and touch out at Wembley.

Peter

If you buy an Underground ticket to Zone 1 at Ealing Broadway it
doesn't mean you can hop on an FGW service if your tube train's
cancelled. Why shouldn't the same apply here?

Besides, most train announcements include the name of the operator, so
all they have to do is listen to them.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On 10 Nov, 17:12, W14_Fishbourne wrote:
On Nov 10, 5:01 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:



"W14_Fishbourne" wrote in:

On Nov 10, 3:48 pm, asdf wrote:

Are you saying that PAYG is not valid on Southern between these
stations? Where is the National Rail information that says this?

See foot of page at:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...oysterservices

Oyster PAYG is not valid from Watford Junction, full stop, according
to this. Where does it say different?

The question was about Harrow & Wealdstone to Wembley Central. That page
asserts that Oyster is accepted on Silverlink between Harrow & Wealdstone
and Euston (presumably including Silverlink County services) except at
Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead. Admittedly the page is silent about
Southern trains between H&W and Wembley Central, but the average passenger
isn't too clued up about which TOC operates which train, and a passenger who
had touched in at H&W, intending to travel to Wembley Central, and who then
found that there was a disruption on the DC line, but a Southern train which
would call at Wembley Central was just pulling in would expect to be allowed
to travel on it and touch out at Wembley.

Peter


I've travelled from these platforms at Wembley Central, they are not
contained within the gateline (which only encompasses the DC line
platforms) and I can't recall there being an Oyster card reader there
for this purpose. It's a very good point though, one that I had failed
to consider in an earlier thread despite considering the late night
Silverlink County (to be London Midland) trains from/to Euston that
call at these platforms.

I dare suggest that most passengers wouldn't even consider taking the
Southern train between H&W and Wembley Central given the regular DC
line service (including the Bakerloos) but of course that's not an
answer to this issue.


If you buy an Underground ticket to Zone 1 at Ealing Broadway it
doesn't mean you can hop on an FGW service if your tube train's
cancelled. Why shouldn't the same apply here?

But wouldn't it be great if you could do just that. That's the kind of
thing passengers want. And you can do just that with an LU ticket from
DC line stations between H&W and Queens Park into Euston, as well as
other routes into Liverpool Street and Fenchurch Street (and yes I
realise the latter two cases are because LU lines shadow these routes
so they have interavailable ticketing).

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 15:51:46 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:04:51 -0800, wrote:

(Actually, my guess is that oyster won't be ready at these stations at
the weekend so the information hasn't been published to stop people
thinking they will be able to use it)

I have to agree - I'll be pleasantly surprised if PAYG is valid beyond
Hatch End tomorrow.

I am told via another group that the following applies.

PAYG - Watford - Euston on Overground services
PAYG - Harrow & Wealdstone - Euston on London Midland (no change from
Silverlink validity)
PAYG - Watford Junction - Clapham Junction on Southern

PAYG *not* valid on London Midland from Watford Junction - Harrow and
Wealdstone. I am waiting for a response to a question as to whether the
above non availability also means no availability of PAYG between
Watford and Euston on London Midland services.

Stations from Hatch End - Watford Junction will be priced *for PAYG
only* on the Zones 6A-D principle as for the out county stretches of the
Met. The out county zones do not apply to Travelcards which are still
priced and issued as a Z1-6 plus rail to Watford Junction. I don't know
which stations on the DC line fall into which out county zones. Hatch
End remains in Zone 6.

Please don't shoot the messenger given the inconsistencies in the above
position. More changes due for the Jan Fares Revision but I don't know
what they are.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On 10 Nov, 17:57, Mizter T wrote:
On 10 Nov, 17:12, W14_Fishbourne wrote:



On Nov 10, 5:01 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"W14_Fishbourne" wrote in:

On Nov 10, 3:48 pm, asdf wrote:

Are you saying that PAYG is not valid on Southern between these
stations? Where is the National Rail information that says this?

See foot of page at:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...oysterservices

Oyster PAYG is not valid from Watford Junction, full stop, according
to this. Where does it say different?

The question was about Harrow & Wealdstone to Wembley Central. That page
asserts that Oyster is accepted on Silverlink between Harrow & Wealdstone
and Euston (presumably including Silverlink County services) except at
Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead. Admittedly the page is silent about
Southern trains between H&W and Wembley Central, but the average passenger
isn't too clued up about which TOC operates which train, and a passenger who
had touched in at H&W, intending to travel to Wembley Central, and who then
found that there was a disruption on the DC line, but a Southern train which
would call at Wembley Central was just pulling in would expect to be allowed
to travel on it and touch out at Wembley.

Peter

I've travelled from these platforms at Wembley Central, they are not
contained within the gateline (which only encompasses the DC line
platforms) and I can't recall there being an Oyster card reader there
for this purpose. It's a very good point though, one that I had failed
to consider in an earlier thread despite considering the late night
Silverlink County (to be London Midland) trains from/to Euston that
call at these platforms.

There are no Oyster readers on Platforms 3-6, and in the late night
periods when Silverlink County/London Midland serve the station, the
readers on the DC platforms are inside the locked part of the station,
so in practice PAYG is not valid.

Another interesting question is if PAYG will be valid on Virgin
between Euston & Watford Junction when special services are running.
(For example, Watford Junction was being advertised as a normal stop
for Virgin trains from Euston yesterday.)

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On 10 Nov, 19:06, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 15:51:46 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:04:51 -0800, wrote:

(Actually, my guess is that oyster won't be ready at these stations at
the weekend so the information hasn't been published to stop people
thinking they will be able to use it)

I have to agree - I'll be pleasantly surprised if PAYG is valid beyond
Hatch End tomorrow.

I am told via another group that the following applies.

PAYG - Watford - Euston on Overground services
PAYG - Harrow & Wealdstone - Euston on London Midland (no change from
Silverlink validity)
PAYG - Watford Junction - Clapham Junction on Southern

PAYG *not* valid on London Midland from Watford Junction - Harrow and
Wealdstone. I am waiting for a response to a question as to whether the
above non availability also means no availability of PAYG between
Watford and Euston on London Midland services.

Though that would logically follow. So basically no agreement with
London Midland (at least not yet) for PAYG on their services from
Watford Junction to points south, whilst the availability of PAYG from
H&W to Euston is inherited from Silverlink.

The alleged availability of PAYG on Southern from Watford Jn down to
Clapham Jn comes at some surprise - I can see PAYG being valid from
H&W down to Clapham Jn, but not from Watford Jn. I think it best to
await confirmation (or otherwise) of that!


Stations from Hatch End - Watford Junction will be priced *for PAYG
only* on the Zones 6A-D principle as for the out county stretches of the
Met. The out county zones do not apply to Travelcards which are still
priced and issued as a Z1-6 plus rail to Watford Junction. I don't know
which stations on the DC line fall into which out county zones. Hatch
End remains in Zone 6.

Interesting stuff. One wonders if the term zones A-D will even appear
on customer facing literature - one hopes not as that would lead to
confusion (with people thinking a zones A-D Travelcard would be valid
when it won't be).


Please don't shoot the messenger given the inconsistencies in the above
position. More changes due for the Jan Fares Revision but I don't know
what they are.
--
Paul C

All interesting developments. Presumably the TfL website's London
Overground section will go live tomorrow and answer some of these
questions.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On 10 Nov, 19:28, Matthew wrote:
On 10 Nov, 17:57, Mizter T wrote:

On 10 Nov, 17:12, W14_Fishbourne wrote:

On Nov 10, 5:01 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"W14_Fishbourne" wrote in:

On Nov 10, 3:48 pm, asdf wrote:

Are you saying that PAYG is not valid on Southern between these
stations? Where is the National Rail information that says this?

See foot of page at:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...oysterservices

Oyster PAYG is not valid from Watford Junction, full stop, according
to this. Where does it say different?

The question was about Harrow & Wealdstone to Wembley Central. That page
asserts that Oyster is accepted on Silverlink between Harrow & Wealdstone
and Euston (presumably including Silverlink County services) except at
Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead. Admittedly the page is silent about
Southern trains between H&W and Wembley Central, but the average passenger
isn't too clued up about which TOC operates which train, and a passenger who
had touched in at H&W, intending to travel to Wembley Central, and who then
found that there was a disruption on the DC line, but a Southern train which
would call at Wembley Central was just pulling in would expect to be allowed
to travel on it and touch out at Wembley.

Peter

I've travelled from these platforms at Wembley Central, they are not
contained within the gateline (which only encompasses the DC line
platforms) and I can't recall there being an Oyster card reader there
for this purpose. It's a very good point though, one that I had failed
to consider in an earlier thread despite considering the late night
Silverlink County (to be London Midland) trains from/to Euston that
call at these platforms.

There are no Oyster readers on Platforms 3-6, and in the late night
periods when Silverlink County/London Midland serve the station, the
readers on the DC platforms are inside the locked part of the station,
so in practice PAYG is not valid.

Thanks for confirmation of that, I though they weren't any readers on
those platforms. I'd suggest that if PAYG becomes valid on Southern's
West London Line service (as is suggested elsewhere on this thread by
Paul Corfield) then this omission needs to be dealt with.


Another interesting question is if PAYG will be valid on Virgin
between Euston & Watford Junction when special services are running.
(For example, Watford Junction was being advertised as a normal stop
for Virgin trains from Euston yesterday.)

Interesting indeed. Perhaps, if PAYG will be valid on London
Overground only from Watford Jn (as Paul C's post suggests) then the
easy answer, if London Overground was not running, would be no.

There is a sole Oyster reader on a post near platforms 16/17/18 at
Euston to cater for those rush hour Silverlink County/ London Midland
trains that use those platforms (as PAYG is valid on these fast trains
as far as H&W only - and Paul C's post suggests this will not change).

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Nov 10, 5:57 pm, Mizter T wrote:


But wouldn't it be great if you could do just that. That's the kind of
thing passengers want.


Sure. I'd also love to go into Sainsbury's and buy some best rump
steak for the same price as brisket!

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:29:50 -0800, Mizter T wrote:

On 10 Nov, 19:06, Paul Corfield wrote:

PAYG *not* valid on London Midland from Watford Junction - Harrow and
Wealdstone. I am waiting for a response to a question as to whether the
above non availability also means no availability of PAYG between
Watford and Euston on London Midland services.

Though that would logically follow. So basically no agreement with
London Midland (at least not yet) for PAYG on their services from
Watford Junction to points south, whilst the availability of PAYG from
H&W to Euston is inherited from Silverlink.

The alleged availability of PAYG on Southern from Watford Jn down to
Clapham Jn comes at some surprise - I can see PAYG being valid from
H&W down to Clapham Jn, but not from Watford Jn. I think it best to
await confirmation (or otherwise) of that!

The person who provided the info is very close to the Oyster and fares
issues. I trust his information to be completely accurate.

Stations from Hatch End - Watford Junction will be priced *for PAYG
only* on the Zones 6A-D principle as for the out county stretches of the
Met. The out county zones do not apply to Travelcards which are still
priced and issued as a Z1-6 plus rail to Watford Junction. I don't know
which stations on the DC line fall into which out county zones. Hatch
End remains in Zone 6.

Interesting stuff. One wonders if the term zones A-D will even appear
on customer facing literature - one hopes not as that would lead to
confusion (with people thinking a zones A-D Travelcard would be valid
when it won't be).

Having a look at the advance info I have on LU fares (one day tickets)
for 2008 there are references to Zones 1-9 as well as 1-8W. There is no
explanation provided but 1-8W rates are highest so perhaps these
reference One Day tickets valid to Watford Junction. Interestingly there
is no LU fare to Z1-8W but there is for Z1-9. If "W" does mean Watford
then the single fare treatment makes sense as LU services won't reach
Watford Junction.

Quite how all of this is going to be explained to the public is going to
be an interesting exercise.

More interesting still is that I have yet to see anything about the
rates for Rail Zonal tickets. Tube-Train tickets or Travelcard season
rates. Something tells me they are still being negotiated as well as
whether there are any different PAYG rates for those lines which go PAYG
in Jan 2008 (One, FCC, C2C).

All interesting developments. Presumably the TfL website's London
Overground section will go live tomorrow and answer some of these
questions.

I had expected something to go live well before now. I had expected
something better than the current mess we are in with Silverlink
redirecting to London Midland but nothing for the Metro networks. Worse
still the Gunnersbury - Richmond section of the NLL / District Line is
out of service due to a "signalling" problem. It must be a very serious
problem to cause day long disruption without an apparent fix being
possible. That junction has been a mess since it was renewed by Network
Rail earlier this year - goodness knows what they've done to it to make
it worse now than it was before they did the work. If NR don't sort
this out then it's a very inauspicious start for Overground tomorrow on
one of their main routes.

--
Paul C

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

All interesting developments. Presumably the TfL website's London
Overground section will go live tomorrow and answer some of these
questions.

One simple issue I'm thinking of - London Overground appears, from the NR
perspective (they show its details on their site, and in terms of
timetabling and published fares), to be a part of National Rail. Whereas TfL
have previously used 'National Rail' as shorthand for 'not tube'. So are TfL
going to lump NR & LO together in their instructions, or not...

Paul S

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...

"Ken" wrote

But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the
"Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change.

Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford
Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County)
between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere?
Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in
view
of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction.

Peter

Peter


I posted a message about Wembley Central and to gain access from the Metro
Bakerloo you have to exit through the barriers into the public area but then
access back to the platforms used by Southern there are no barriers or
oyster reader so if you interchange from a Bakerloo train to a Southern
train to Watford I think that there will be a real mess to sort out at
Watford.

Kevin

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
oups.com...
On 10 Nov, 19:28, Matthew wrote:
On 10 Nov, 17:57, Mizter T wrote:

On 10 Nov, 17:12, W14_Fishbourne wrote:

On Nov 10, 5:01 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"W14_Fishbourne" wrote in:

On Nov 10, 3:48 pm, asdf wrote:

Are you saying that PAYG is not valid on Southern between these
stations? Where is the National Rail information that says
this?

See foot of page at:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...oysterservices

Oyster PAYG is not valid from Watford Junction, full stop,
according
to this. Where does it say different?

The question was about Harrow & Wealdstone to Wembley Central. That
page
asserts that Oyster is accepted on Silverlink between Harrow &
Wealdstone
and Euston (presumably including Silverlink County services) except
at
Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead. Admittedly the page is
silent about
Southern trains between H&W and Wembley Central, but the average
passenger
isn't too clued up about which TOC operates which train, and a
passenger who
had touched in at H&W, intending to travel to Wembley Central, and
who then
found that there was a disruption on the DC line, but a Southern
train which
would call at Wembley Central was just pulling in would expect to
be allowed
to travel on it and touch out at Wembley.

Peter

I've travelled from these platforms at Wembley Central, they are not
contained within the gateline (which only encompasses the DC line
platforms) and I can't recall there being an Oyster card reader there
for this purpose. It's a very good point though, one that I had failed
to consider in an earlier thread despite considering the late night
Silverlink County (to be London Midland) trains from/to Euston that
call at these platforms.

There are no Oyster readers on Platforms 3-6, and in the late night
periods when Silverlink County/London Midland serve the station, the
readers on the DC platforms are inside the locked part of the station,
so in practice PAYG is not valid.

Thanks for confirmation of that, I though they weren't any readers on
those platforms. I'd suggest that if PAYG becomes valid on Southern's
West London Line service (as is suggested elsewhere on this thread by
Paul Corfield) then this omission needs to be dealt with.


Another interesting question is if PAYG will be valid on Virgin
between Euston & Watford Junction when special services are running.
(For example, Watford Junction was being advertised as a normal stop
for Virgin trains from Euston yesterday.)

Interesting indeed. Perhaps, if PAYG will be valid on London
Overground only from Watford Jn (as Paul C's post suggests) then the
easy answer, if London Overground was not running, would be no.

There is a sole Oyster reader on a post near platforms 16/17/18 at
Euston to cater for those rush hour Silverlink County/ London Midland
trains that use those platforms (as PAYG is valid on these fast trains
as far as H&W only - and Paul C's post suggests this will not change).

I replied to a post further up then found this one. I was at Wembley Central
yesterday and found the station layout very bizarre. I didn't see ant oyster
readers and they routed the Watford train into the northbound platform,
dickheads.

Kevin

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On 10 Nov, 21:00, "Zen83237" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message

oups.com...



On 10 Nov, 19:28, Matthew wrote:
On 10 Nov, 17:57, Mizter T wrote:

(snip)

I've travelled from these platforms at Wembley Central, they are not
contained within the gateline (which only encompasses the DC line
platforms) and I can't recall there being an Oyster card reader there
for this purpose. It's a very good point though, one that I had failed
to consider in an earlier thread despite considering the late night
Silverlink County (to be London Midland) trains from/to Euston that
call at these platforms.

There are no Oyster readers on Platforms 3-6, and in the late night
periods when Silverlink County/London Midland serve the station, the
readers on the DC platforms are inside the locked part of the station,
so in practice PAYG is not valid.

Thanks for confirmation of that, I though they weren't any readers on
those platforms. I'd suggest that if PAYG becomes valid on Southern's
West London Line service (as is suggested elsewhere on this thread by
Paul Corfield) then this omission needs to be dealt with.

(snip)

I replied to a post further up then found this one. I was at Wembley Central
yesterday and found the station layout very bizarre. I didn't see ant oyster
readers and they routed the Watford train into the northbound platform,
dickheads.

Kevin


I don't think Wembley Central was ever really designed to be used as
it is now. The DC line platforms have always had a very regular
service (both Watford- Euston and Bakerloo) and hence at some point in
the fairly recent past were gated. I'm not sure whether the other
platforms were ever in regular use before the current Southern service
(which started back in Connex South Central days and originally
extended up to Rugby). I'm also unsure of how many of these services
called at Wembley Central at the beginning - this service certainly
calls there more often nowadays than it did.

Lastly unless there were radical changes then platforms 3-6 could not
easily be brought within the gateline at Wembley Central - the
passageway the platforms are accessed from (through doors that are
otherwise locked out of use) is a public passageway that provides
access to offices and shops that (I think) would otherwise not have
access. I guess one way of facilitating this would be to divide the
passageway up, but apart from any other issues given the pretty
infrequent service these extra platforms receive I suspect it just
wouldn't be worth it.

A trip down onto those platforms is certainly a somewhat bizarre
experience, I must say - it's a bit of a forgotten dingy hole, made
stranger when a fast Pendolino speeds through on the adjacent fast
lines and the whole underground space suddenly experiences a sudden
vortex of rushing wind. The kind of out of the ordinary unpolished
transport experience that's quite entertaining, in my books at least!

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

"Mizter T" wrote

I don't think Wembley Central was ever really designed to be used as
it is now. The DC line platforms have always had a very regular
service (both Watford- Euston and Bakerloo) and hence at some point in
the fairly recent past were gated. I'm not sure whether the other
platforms were ever in regular use before the current Southern service
(which started back in Connex South Central days and originally
extended up to Rugby). I'm also unsure of how many of these services
called at Wembley Central at the beginning - this service certainly
calls there more often nowadays than it did.

For many years after 1966 the only passenger use the Wembley Central Fast
and Slow Line platforms got was a call by a very early morning passenger and
news train out of Euston, plus specials for events at Wembley Stadium. When
the Connex Southcentral (now Southern) service started there were no stops
at Wembley Central, and most didn't stop at Harrow & Wealdstone either.

Peter

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:28:13 -0800, Mizter T
wrote:

On 10 Nov, 21:00, "Zen83237" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message

oups.com...



On 10 Nov, 19:28, Matthew wrote:
On 10 Nov, 17:57, Mizter T wrote:

(snip)

I've travelled from these platforms at Wembley Central, they are not
contained within the gateline (which only encompasses the DC line
platforms) and I can't recall there being an Oyster card reader there
for this purpose. It's a very good point though, one that I had failed
to consider in an earlier thread despite considering the late night
Silverlink County (to be London Midland) trains from/to Euston that
call at these platforms.

There are no Oyster readers on Platforms 3-6, and in the late night
periods when Silverlink County/London Midland serve the station, the
readers on the DC platforms are inside the locked part of the station,
so in practice PAYG is not valid.

Thanks for confirmation of that, I though they weren't any readers on
those platforms. I'd suggest that if PAYG becomes valid on Southern's
West London Line service (as is suggested elsewhere on this thread by
Paul Corfield) then this omission needs to be dealt with.

(snip)

I replied to a post further up then found this one. I was at Wembley Central
yesterday and found the station layout very bizarre. I didn't see ant oyster
readers and they routed the Watford train into the northbound platform,
dickheads.

Kevin


I don't think Wembley Central was ever really designed to be used as
it is now. The DC line platforms have always had a very regular
service (both Watford- Euston and Bakerloo) and hence at some point in
the fairly recent past were gated. I'm not sure whether the other
platforms were ever in regular use before the current Southern service
(which started back in Connex South Central days and originally
extended up to Rugby). I'm also unsure of how many of these services
called at Wembley Central at the beginning - this service certainly
calls there more often nowadays than it did.

Lastly unless there were radical changes then platforms 3-6 could not
easily be brought within the gateline at Wembley Central - the
passageway the platforms are accessed from (through doors that are
otherwise locked out of use) is a public passageway that provides
access to offices and shops that (I think) would otherwise not have
access. I guess one way of facilitating this would be to divide the
passageway up, but apart from any other issues given the pretty
infrequent service these extra platforms receive I suspect it just
wouldn't be worth it.

A trip down onto those platforms is certainly a somewhat bizarre
experience, I must say - it's a bit of a forgotten dingy hole, made
stranger when a fast Pendolino speeds through on the adjacent fast
lines and the whole underground space suddenly experiences a sudden
vortex of rushing wind. The kind of out of the ordinary unpolished
transport experience that's quite entertaining, in my books at least!

The current layout originates from what would have been appropriate
for the 1948 Olympics (i.e. as little obstruction as possible between
the Main Line platforms and the street) and at that time would no
doubt have had a sizeable amount of station staff allocated; IIRC the
booking office(s) was/were closer to the street before the current one
was built. Since then however the 1960s Station Square (which also has
access from side roads other than Wembley High Road) has been bolted
on top of the platforms without any attempt to maintain the convention
of all platforms being within one boundary. So the LNWR and LMS
probably had the design right but BR buggered it up by doing things on
the cheap (plus ca change.....). The new footbridge at the London end
goes some way to curing the 1960s bodge but unfortunately it is at the
opposite end of the station to the booking office and barriers so only
gets used on event days when extra staff are drafted in.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On 10 Nov, 22:06, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote

I don't think Wembley Central was ever really designed to be used as
it is now. The DC line platforms have always had a very regular
service (both Watford- Euston and Bakerloo) and hence at some point in
the fairly recent past were gated. I'm not sure whether the other
platforms were ever in regular use before the current Southern service
(which started back in Connex South Central days and originally
extended up to Rugby). I'm also unsure of how many of these services
called at Wembley Central at the beginning - this service certainly
calls there more often nowadays than it did.

For many years after 1966 the only passenger use the Wembley Central Fast
and Slow Line platforms got was a call by a very early morning passenger and
news train out of Euston, plus specials for events at Wembley Stadium. When
the Connex Southcentral (now Southern) service started there were no stops
at Wembley Central, and most didn't stop at Harrow & Wealdstone either.

Peter


Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

I didn't realise that the Connex service only had a few stops at H&W
when it began.

Am I right in saying the Connex service to Rugby was in fact launched
in pre-Connex days by Network SouthCentral (the pre-privatisation
Train Operating Unit as was before it fell under Connex ownership)?
And was it originally planned by Network SouthEast or was it a genuine
bit of innovation by the managers of Network SouthCentral?

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On 10 Nov, 23:02, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:28:13 -0800, Mizter T
wrote:

On 10 Nov, 21:00, "Zen83237" wrote:

(snip)

I replied to a post further up then found this one. I was at Wembley Central
yesterday and found the station layout very bizarre. I didn't see ant oyster
readers and they routed the Watford train into the northbound platform,
dickheads.

Kevin

I don't think Wembley Central was ever really designed to be used as
it is now. The DC line platforms have always had a very regular
service (both Watford- Euston and Bakerloo) and hence at some point in
the fairly recent past were gated. I'm not sure whether the other
platforms were ever in regular use before the current Southern service
(which started back in Connex South Central days and originally
extended up to Rugby). I'm also unsure of how many of these services
called at Wembley Central at the beginning - this service certainly
calls there more often nowadays than it did.

Lastly unless there were radical changes then platforms 3-6 could not
easily be brought within the gateline at Wembley Central - the
passageway the platforms are accessed from (through doors that are
otherwise locked out of use) is a public passageway that provides
access to offices and shops that (I think) would otherwise not have
access. I guess one way of facilitating this would be to divide the
passageway up, but apart from any other issues given the pretty
infrequent service these extra platforms receive I suspect it just
wouldn't be worth it.

A trip down onto those platforms is certainly a somewhat bizarre
experience, I must say - it's a bit of a forgotten dingy hole, made
stranger when a fast Pendolino speeds through on the adjacent fast
lines and the whole underground space suddenly experiences a sudden
vortex of rushing wind. The kind of out of the ordinary unpolished
transport experience that's quite entertaining, in my books at least!

The current layout originates from what would have been appropriate
for the 1948 Olympics (i.e. as little obstruction as possible between
the Main Line platforms and the street) and at that time would no
doubt have had a sizeable amount of station staff allocated; IIRC the
booking office(s) was/were closer to the street before the current one
was built. Since then however the 1960s Station Square (which also has
access from side roads other than Wembley High Road) has been bolted
on top of the platforms without any attempt to maintain the convention
of all platforms being within one boundary. So the LNWR and LMS
probably had the design right but BR buggered it up by doing things on
the cheap (plus ca change.....). The new footbridge at the London end
goes some way to curing the 1960s bodge but unfortunately it is at the
opposite end of the station to the booking office and barriers so only
gets used on event days when extra staff are drafted in.


Thanks, that all helps me to make sense of the current arrangement. I
guess that in the 60's perhaps BR failed to foresee any future usage
of the main line platforms other than for Wembley event day specials.

I'd presume that the tenants of Station Square would be most unwilling
to lose unfettered pedestrian access across the covered footbridge
corridor and be forced to use the side streets. I suspect they might
also not be spectacularly keen on losing a portion of that corridor so
it could be enclosed to become part of the fare-paid area.

The whole of the station arcade (including the covered corridor in
question) and the Station Square is all very grotty, taken in
combination it's all a pretty sorry state of affairs. Dare I suggest
that this could all get remedied some day with a welcome offer from a
property developer to knock down Station Square and build something
nicer. I guess there could be some less drastic ways of remedying the
whole situation too, like a spot of heavy cleaning and a determined
attempt at beautification.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

In message .com
W14_Fishbourne wrote:

On Nov 10, 3:36 pm, rail wrote:


It can cope with peak and off-peak fares on the UndergrounD


But on a simplistic and entirely different basis to NR fares.


So?

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:06:38 +0000,
Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 15:51:46 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:04:51 -0800, wrote:

(Actually, my guess is that oyster won't be ready at these stations at
the weekend so the information hasn't been published to stop people
thinking they will be able to use it)

I have to agree - I'll be pleasantly surprised if PAYG is valid beyond
Hatch End tomorrow.

I am told via another group that the following applies.

PAYG - Watford - Euston on Overground services
PAYG - Harrow & Wealdstone - Euston on London Midland (no change from
Silverlink validity)
PAYG - Watford Junction - Clapham Junction on Southern

PAYG *not* valid on London Midland from Watford Junction - Harrow and
Wealdstone. I am waiting for a response to a question as to whether the
above non availability also means no availability of PAYG between
Watford and Euston on London Midland services.

Fascinating. So you can take any train except a London Midland train
from Watford Junction on PAYG and then change onto a London Midland
train at H&W that will have stopped at WJ anyway!

Stations from Hatch End - Watford Junction will be priced *for PAYG
only* on the Zones 6A-D principle as for the out county stretches of the
Met. The out county zones do not apply to Travelcards which are still
priced and issued as a Z1-6 plus rail to Watford Junction. I don't know
which stations on the DC line fall into which out county zones. Hatch
End remains in Zone 6.

It's all a bit of a nuisance if PAYG won't have general validity from
WJ. I enjoyed my Friday journeys via Watford-Baker Street which gets me
about 14 miles of cycling (approx 2.5+4.5+4.5+2.5) rather than the 8
miles I usually get (approx 1+3+3+1). It's just a shame that the met
line journey takes so long so I wouldn't want to do it every day. But if
I was always using PAYG I could choose which way to go. (Obviously I can
do that anyway but I have to pay extra for a slower journey - I assume
adding an all zones travel card onto my gold card won't take me to the
end of the Met line, just to Z6?)

Please don't shoot the messenger given the inconsistencies in the above
position. More changes due for the Jan Fares Revision but I don't know
what they are.
No shooting here. Whilst, of course, everybody is hoping for cheaper
fares, I think the main complaint is that nobody is certain when and
where tickets are going to be available/valid. I'm assuming that my gold
card will remain valid on the DC line from Watford Junction but even
that hasn't been explicitly set out. (I've always assumed that it's not
valid on the Bakerloo line for the stations that are the same as the DC
line BICBW)

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:29:50 -0800, Mizter T wrote:

On 10 Nov, 19:06, Paul Corfield wrote:

PAYG *not* valid on London Midland from Watford Junction - Harrow and
Wealdstone. I am waiting for a response to a question as to whether the
above non availability also means no availability of PAYG between
Watford and Euston on London Midland services.

Though that would logically follow. So basically no agreement with
London Midland (at least not yet) for PAYG on their services from
Watford Junction to points south, whilst the availability of PAYG from
H&W to Euston is inherited from Silverlink.

The alleged availability of PAYG on Southern from Watford Jn down to
Clapham Jn comes at some surprise - I can see PAYG being valid from
H&W down to Clapham Jn, but not from Watford Jn. I think it best to
await confirmation (or otherwise) of that!

The person who provided the info is very close to the Oyster and fares
issues. I trust his information to be completely accurate.

Fare enough, that sounds very authoritative. I just found it to be
slightly odd, not least as both Southern and London Midland are Govia
owned companies. I guess that London Midland has money to lose if it
were to accept PAYG from Watford Jn, whilst Southern wouldn't. Still,
pity the poor passenger!

I'm all in favour of having Oyster PAYG rolled out across the rail
network, but in a case such as this I can't help but feel that perhaps
it would make life easier for Southern to follow whatever London
Midland does between Watford Jn and H&W. It's one thing to expect pax
to differentiate between the fast trains and the stoppers at Watford
Jn, another for them to differentiate between one fast train and and
another fast train.


Stations from Hatch End - Watford Junction will be priced *for PAYG
only* on the Zones 6A-D principle as for the out county stretches of the
Met. The out county zones do not apply to Travelcards which are still
priced and issued as a Z1-6 plus rail to Watford Junction. I don't know
which stations on the DC line fall into which out county zones. Hatch
End remains in Zone 6.

Interesting stuff. One wonders if the term zones A-D will even appear
on customer facing literature - one hopes not as that would lead to
confusion (with people thinking a zones A-D Travelcard would be valid
when it won't be).

Having a look at the advance info I have on LU fares (one day tickets)
for 2008 there are references to Zones 1-9 as well as 1-8W. There is no
explanation provided but 1-8W rates are highest so perhaps these
reference One Day tickets valid to Watford Junction. Interestingly there
is no LU fare to Z1-8W but there is for Z1-9. If "W" does mean Watford
then the single fare treatment makes sense as LU services won't reach
Watford Junction.

I have to say I found the above somewhat befuddling until I'd mulled
it over for a bit.

Someone else with an inside track has already stated that zones A-D on
the extremities of the Metropolitan line are to become zones 7-9,
which would of course require some rationalisation (four zones into
three).

Perhaps this is how it'll work - there would be zones 7W and 8W which
would encompass Carpenders Park up to Watford Jn on the DC lines
stopping services (and perhaps, in the future, the London Midland
fasts when they come round to the idea!).

Meanwhile on the Met there would be the completely separate zones 7M,
8M and 9M.

Meanwhile in other areas of the home counties where the TOCs may opt
in to the Oyster PAYG system outside the London zones 1-6, other zone
suffixes could be used - for example zones 7G and 8G could encompass
c2c stations outside of the London zones 1-6 area out to Grays (c2c is
planning on accepting Oyster PAYG as far out as Grays from summer
2008).

If 'one' railway opts in to Oyster PAYG for, say as far as Shenfield
on the Great Eastern route, then perhaps there would be a zone 7S, and
a 7B (and maybe 8B) to encompass stations to Broxbourne (or even a
zone 7E - for East - that would encompass them both)

i.e. Such a zone naming scheme would preserve zones 1-6 as the core
London zones, and then further "out-boundary" *non-concentric* zones
could be added to extend the zonal system out into the home counties.

Anyway, that's just me speculating on how it could work.

It remains a bit of a shame that Watford Junction isn't going to
become part of the Met line zonal system (i.e. become part of zone A),
especially given the fact the Met's Watford station is in the same
town, albeit 15 (?) mins walk away from Watford Jn. But quite
predictable nonetheless. I think the TfL promotional map for London
Overground that showed Watford Jn as being in zone A certainly raised
some peoples hopes, which perhaps wasn't the best idea in retrospect.


Quite how all of this is going to be explained to the public is going to
be an interesting exercise.

Which is an *absolutely vital* issue. The design of any such ticketing
system should take this on board from the get-go.


More interesting still is that I have yet to see anything about the
rates for Rail Zonal tickets. Tube-Train tickets or Travelcard season
rates. Something tells me they are still being negotiated as well as
whether there are any different PAYG rates for those lines which go PAYG
in Jan 2008 (One, FCC, C2C).

Reading between the earlier press release from the Mayor's office
regarding next year's frozen LU and bus fares it certainly left wide
open the possibility that Travelcard fares were still being
negotiated.

Just to be clear to any other readers, 'one', FCC and c2c are all to
start accepting Oyster PAYG from all their stations within London
zones 1-6. c2c is the only TOC that would appear to have firm plans
for extending Oyster PAYG outside of zones 1-6 (though of course
London Overground will supposedly be accepting Oyster PAYG all the way
down from Watford Jn later on today).

The c2c press release concerning this is he
http://www.c2c-online.co.uk/templates/NewsArticle.aspx?id=668


All interesting developments. Presumably the TfL website's London
Overground section will go live tomorrow and answer some of these
questions.

I had expected something to go live well before now. I had expected
something better than the current mess we are in with Silverlink
redirecting to London Midland but nothing for the Metro networks. Worse
still the Gunnersbury - Richmond section of the NLL / District Line is
out of service due to a "signalling" problem. It must be a very serious
problem to cause day long disruption without an apparent fix being
possible. That junction has been a mess since it was renewed by Network
Rail earlier this year - goodness knows what they've done to it to make
it worse now than it was before they did the work. If NR don't sort
this out then it's a very inauspicious start for Overground tomorrow on
one of their main routes.

--
Paul C


I agree about the lack of information. At the very least the
Silverlink site should have displayed a splash screen with two options
- redirect to London Midland, or to London Overground. TfL could have
volunteered to host such a screen themselves.

However I do get the feeling that TfL wish to have a fairly low-key
start to London Overground, as the improvements will (obviously) be
incremental as opposed to overnight. In addition widely advertising
the future availability of Oyster PAYG, before it became valid, might
have led to people thinking PAYG was already good-to-go on the
Silverlink Metro lines and hence travelling ticketless, and also ended
up with unhappy people with costly unresolved journeys as a result of
them jumping the gun.

However it is a bit silly that on the day before LO takes over this
thread is alive with speculation as to how the Watford Junction PAYG
issue will be resolved. As I said earlier, this cannot have been
helped by the fact that the earlier promotional maps for LO placed
Watford Jn in zone A, which some people seemed to take as all the
confirmation they needed to presume this is how things would in fact
turn out.

Regarding the Gunnersbury Junction - I'd like to think that TfL will
be breathing down Network Rail's back pretty heavily to get this
sorted out, but of course the District line has been suffering at the
hands of this already. Perhaps there's an NR permanent way team there
right now trying to sort it out for tomorrow...