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London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On 11 Nov, 00:56, Tim Woodall wrote:
On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:06:38 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote: On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 15:51:46 +0000, asdf wrote: On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:04:51 -0800, wrote: (Actually, my guess is that oyster won't be ready at these stations at the weekend so the information hasn't been published to stop people thinking they will be able to use it) I have to agree - I'll be pleasantly surprised if PAYG is valid beyond Hatch End tomorrow. I am told via another group that the following applies. PAYG - Watford - Euston on Overground services PAYG - Harrow & Wealdstone - Euston on London Midland (no change from Silverlink validity) PAYG - Watford Junction - Clapham Junction on Southern PAYG *not* valid on London Midland from Watford Junction - Harrow and Wealdstone. I am waiting for a response to a question as to whether the above non availability also means no availability of PAYG between Watford and Euston on London Midland services. Fascinating. So you can take any train except a London Midland train from Watford Junction on PAYG and then change onto a London Midland train at H&W that will have stopped at WJ anyway! So it would seem! Bear in mind that London Midland will have inherited the situation at H&W from Silverlink, and if you go to H&W you'll see it is implemented grudgingly - there are *no* Oyster readers on the main line side of the platforms, they are only on the DC line side and on the overbridge near the stairs that lead down to the DC line platforms. Nor, as I recall, are there any posters to advise you of the situation. Whether this will change will be interesting - H&W is to be a London Overground station, managed by LU. Perhaps TfL won't want to upset the apple cart - if they promote the availability of Oyster on the fast trains, London Midland might have a strop and attempt to withdraw it - that said I've no idea whether they'd have the power to do so under their franchise agreement. Stations from Hatch End - Watford Junction will be priced *for PAYG only* on the Zones 6A-D principle as for the out county stretches of the Met. The out county zones do not apply to Travelcards which are still priced and issued as a Z1-6 plus rail to Watford Junction. I don't know which stations on the DC line fall into which out county zones. Hatch End remains in Zone 6. It's all a bit of a nuisance if PAYG won't have general validity from WJ. I enjoyed my Friday journeys via Watford-Baker Street which gets me about 14 miles of cycling (approx 2.5+4.5+4.5+2.5) rather than the 8 miles I usually get (approx 1+3+3+1). It's just a shame that the met line journey takes so long so I wouldn't want to do it every day. But if I was always using PAYG I could choose which way to go. (Obviously I can do that anyway but I have to pay extra for a slower journey - I assume adding an all zones travel card onto my gold card won't take me to the end of the Met line, just to Z6?) A bit of a nuisance, yes. I'm sure TfL would be happy to negotiate with London Midland in the hope of coming up with a reasonable deal that would be conducive to both parties. I dare suggest the ball is in London Midland's side of the court on this one. Re your ticketing question - I presume you have a WJ to Euston rail only Gold Card? If so then you're right - you can only add a Travelcard zones 1-6 to it, not a Travelcard zones 1-D. Thus if you had a zones 1-6 Travelcard you'd either need to buy a single £3 ticket to cover the extra distance from Watford to Moor Park (start of zone 6) and do the same coming back, or otherwise use Oyster PAYG from Watford to Moor Park - by getting off at Moor Park and touching-out. The only other option would be to buy a zones 4-B season Travelcard (i.e. 456AB), which is the fewest zones season Travelcard available for this journey, and you'd thus be covered for your journey with no actual need to touch in/out from Watford down to Moor Park (in fact as far as Wembley Park) - but an annual would cost you £856! Please don't shoot the messenger given the inconsistencies in the above position. More changes due for the Jan Fares Revision but I don't know what they are. No shooting here. Whilst, of course, everybody is hoping for cheaper fares, I think the main complaint is that nobody is certain when and where tickets are going to be available/valid. I'm assuming that my gold card will remain valid on the DC line from Watford Junction but even that hasn't been explicitly set out. (I've always assumed that it's not valid on the Bakerloo line for the stations that are the same as the DC line BICBW) Tim. Agreed on the lack of information. As I say elsewhere, one fear TfL might have had about any pre-publicity is that people might have got confused and started attempting to use Oyster PAYG on Silverlink Metro before it became valid. Your Gold Card will remain valid on the DC line from Watford Junction - and you'll be pleased to read that your assumption regarding the Bakerloo line was wrong, as your Gold Card will remain valid, as it always has been, on Bakerloo line trains between H&W and Queen's Park - i.e. on the shared section of the DC line. This can be confirmed by looking at the ticket inter-availability table on page L5 of section L of the National Fares Manual, which can be seen here (PDF): http://www.atoc.org/retail/_downloads/NFM97/NFM97_Common_L.pdf |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:24:07 -0800, Mizter T wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote: Worse still the Gunnersbury - Richmond section of the NLL / District Line is out of service due to a "signalling" problem. It must be a very serious problem to cause day long disruption without an apparent fix being possible. That junction has been a mess since it was renewed by Network Rail earlier this year - goodness knows what they've done to it to make it worse now than it was before they did the work. If NR don't sort this out then it's a very inauspicious start for Overground tomorrow on one of their main routes. Regarding the Gunnersbury Junction - I'd like to think that TfL will be breathing down Network Rail's back pretty heavily to get this sorted out, but of course the District line has been suffering at the hands of this already. Perhaps there's an NR permanent way team there right now trying to sort it out for tomorrow... Having seen the daily report about this incident I must apologise to Network Rail. The root cause of the problem is cable theft and therefore not an asset failure. Obviously they are working hard to get services restored. That'll teach me to make assumptions :-( -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:24:07 -0800, Mizter T wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote: On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:29:50 -0800, Mizter T wrote: On 10 Nov, 19:06, Paul Corfield wrote: PAYG *not* valid on London Midland from Watford Junction - Harrow and Wealdstone. I am waiting for a response to a question as to whether the above non availability also means no availability of PAYG between Watford and Euston on London Midland services. Though that would logically follow. So basically no agreement with London Midland (at least not yet) for PAYG on their services from Watford Junction to points south, whilst the availability of PAYG from H&W to Euston is inherited from Silverlink. The alleged availability of PAYG on Southern from Watford Jn down to Clapham Jn comes at some surprise - I can see PAYG being valid from H&W down to Clapham Jn, but not from Watford Jn. I think it best to await confirmation (or otherwise) of that! The person who provided the info is very close to the Oyster and fares issues. I trust his information to be completely accurate. Fare enough, that sounds very authoritative. I just found it to be slightly odd, not least as both Southern and London Midland are Govia owned companies. I guess that London Midland has money to lose if it were to accept PAYG from Watford Jn, whilst Southern wouldn't. Still, pity the poor passenger! http://www.southernrailway.com/main.php?page_id=461 confirms the Southern PAYG acceptance between Watford and Clapham Junctions. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Nov 10, 7:57 pm, W14_Fishbourne
wrote: On Nov 10, 5:57 pm, Mizter T wrote: But wouldn't it be great if you could do just that. That's the kind of thing passengers want. Sure. I'd also love to go into Sainsbury's and buy some best rump steak for the same price as brisket! With the railways it's the other way round. When your journey takes twice as long and involves a bus, you still pay the full train fare. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On 11 Nov, 09:58, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:24:07 -0800, Mizter T wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:29:50 -0800, Mizter T wrote: On 10 Nov, 19:06, Paul Corfield wrote: PAYG *not* valid on London Midland from Watford Junction - Harrow and Wealdstone. I am waiting for a response to a question as to whether the above non availability also means no availability of PAYG between Watford and Euston on London Midland services. Though that would logically follow. So basically no agreement with London Midland (at least not yet) for PAYG on their services from Watford Junction to points south, whilst the availability of PAYG from H&W to Euston is inherited from Silverlink. The alleged availability of PAYG on Southern from Watford Jn down to Clapham Jn comes at some surprise - I can see PAYG being valid from H&W down to Clapham Jn, but not from Watford Jn. I think it best to await confirmation (or otherwise) of that! The person who provided the info is very close to the Oyster and fares issues. I trust his information to be completely accurate. Fare enough, that sounds very authoritative. I just found it to be slightly odd, not least as both Southern and London Midland are Govia owned companies. I guess that London Midland has money to lose if it were to accept PAYG from Watford Jn, whilst Southern wouldn't. Still, pity the poor passenger! http://www.southernrailway.com/main.php?page_id=461 confirms the Southern PAYG acceptance between Watford and Clapham Junctions. -- Paul C Well, wow - straight from the horses mouth - thanks Paul for flagging that up. I must say I'm a bit surprised to find that Southern have provided a straightforward webpage that explains their acceptance of PAYG on this route, though really I shouldn't be! Alas the line diagram on that page doesn't make it clear that there are two quite different services up the West London Line - i.e. Southern and London Overground. As far as I can see that's the first bit of passenger facing communication on the web about the acceptance of Oyster PAYG from Watford Junction. I note this bit in the text: "Please do not use your PAYG Oyster Card to pass through the gates if you are NOT travelling on the above services to Watford Junction or intermediate stations." I'm afraid to say that this is going to be a problem at Clapham Junction, with people erroneously thinking that Oyster PAYG is now good for all train services from that station. I expect Clapham Junction will unfortunately produce a steady flow of unresolved journeys. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 02:38:44 -0800, Mizter T wrote:
On 11 Nov, 09:58, Paul Corfield wrote: http://www.southernrailway.com/main.php?page_id=461 confirms the Southern PAYG acceptance between Watford and Clapham Junctions. Well, wow - straight from the horses mouth - thanks Paul for flagging that up. I must say I'm a bit surprised to find that Southern have provided a straightforward webpage that explains their acceptance of PAYG on this route, though really I shouldn't be! Alas the line diagram on that page doesn't make it clear that there are two quite different services up the West London Line - i.e. Southern and London Overground. I think Southern are actually quite enthusiastic about PAYG. There was supposed to be a pilot acceptance of PAYG between Victoria and Balham on their services but it didn't come off. That would have been similar to the One situation of Liverpool St - Walthamstow C / Seven Sisters / Tottenham Hale. It's entirely right that they've taken the time to explain the new acceptance and to get it right on day one. As far as I can see that's the first bit of passenger facing communication on the web about the acceptance of Oyster PAYG from Watford Junction. I note this bit in the text: "Please do not use your PAYG Oyster Card to pass through the gates if you are NOT travelling on the above services to Watford Junction or intermediate stations." I have not been to Clapham Junction for a very long time but reports elsewhere on uk.railway have said there are validators at each of the relevant platforms for the Southern / Overground service. Presumably these are for people changing on to the services from other lines while the SWT ticket gates at the station periphery have presumably been modified for PAYG acceptance but only for valid PAYG destinations from Clapham (for exit validation). I'm afraid to say that this is going to be a problem at Clapham Junction, with people erroneously thinking that Oyster PAYG is now good for all train services from that station. I expect Clapham Junction will unfortunately produce a steady flow of unresolved journeys. To be fair Mizter T there could always be problems where you have partial acceptance of a product on limited stretches of line. However that should not stop people making the effort to get parts of the network working. From my limited observations there seems to be no problem with people adjusting to the idea between Liverpool St and Walthamstow Central. People going on the train touch the validators as necessary and that's that. There is only an issue where people are touched in and the service is suspended and they then head downstairs to go by tube. The LU staff are now adept at getting people through without a double touch in. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
Paul Corfield writes:
Presumably these are for people changing on to the services from other lines while the SWT ticket gates at the station periphery have presumably been modified for PAYG acceptance but only for valid PAYG destinations from Clapham (for exit validation). Would that not be too much checking for the gates, as it would have been possible to have travelled from almost anywhere on the Underground network to the Bakerloo line and thence on the DC lines to Watford Junction and then to Clapham Junction - all without having to touch out and in again when changing. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
asdf wrote:
It's always been like that. It's to prevent holders of (e.g.) Z2-6 Travelcards being charged a Z1 extension fare when they make those journeys using the NLL. Are there any cases where a travelcard holder can make a detour journey, even an unusual one, staying entirely within validity but get charged an extension because the system assumes a trip into zone 1? |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:59:32 +0000, Graham Murray
wrote: Paul Corfield writes: Presumably these are for people changing on to the services from other lines while the SWT ticket gates at the station periphery have presumably been modified for PAYG acceptance but only for valid PAYG destinations from Clapham (for exit validation). Would that not be too much checking for the gates, as it would have been possible to have travelled from almost anywhere on the Underground network to the Bakerloo line and thence on the DC lines to Watford Junction and then to Clapham Junction - all without having to touch out and in again when changing. I wouldn't have thought so. Depending on the route you're either "in" the system at a valid entry point the exit gate will recognise and you're within 2 hours of entry or you aren't if the trip is entirely on PAYG. The alternative is that you're on a Travelcard on an Oyster card and you're either in your zones or you aren't and you last entered at a valid PAYG point or you did not. If your entire trip is covered by Travelcard then no issue. If some PAYG is required to cover the part not covered by your Travelcard zones then the gate should calculate just a LU gate does. If you are exiting and your Travelcard does not cover Clapham Junction and you can't reasonably have got there on Overground given your entry point then I'd imagine your card would be rejected. Might need some more thought on this latter point given that many entry points have no gates or validators - hmm. It will become *much* more fun when PAYG extends to other lines and the route and zone combinations become more complex. -- Paul C |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On 11 Nov, 14:06, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote: asdf wrote: It's always been like that. It's to prevent holders of (e.g.) Z2-6 Travelcards being charged a Z1 extension fare when they make those journeys using the NLL. Are there any cases where a travelcard holder can make a detour journey, even an unusual one, staying entirely within validity but get charged an extension because the system assumes a trip into zone 1? This is also something I've been wondering about. The TfL single fare finder at... http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/faresandtickets/2007/farefinder/ ....states that the Oyster PAYG fare for a Richmond to Stratford journey is £2.50 peak, £2 at other times - and these are the via zone 1 fares. Meanwhile the fares table states that a journey in zones 2-4 (i.e. as would be the case if one travelled via the NLL) would be £1.80 peak, £1 at other times. As the TfL fares booklet says [1], "Some journeys have been defined as requiring travel via Zone 1 and will be charged and capped accordingly, irrespective of the actual route taken." This would appear to be the case in the example given. As you say, what would therefore happen if a passenger made this journey with a zones 2-4 Travelcard loaded on an Oyster card - it does seem to suggest that the passenger would get charged the excess from their PAYG balance. Maybe the system is designed to tolerate this and so the excess would not be charged. There is of course one way to find out, but I'm afraid I'm not feeling quite flush (nor time rich) enough at the moment to flush money down the drain travelling round London testing these various scenarios out (though in a way I'd quite like to as I'm very curious as to how things have been set up!). ----- [1] TfL Fares and tickets booklet (PDF) - includes Oyster fares tables: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ckets-0709.pdf |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
Travelcard then no issue. If some PAYG is required to cover the part not covered by your Travelcard zones then the gate should calculate just a LU gate does. If you are exiting and your Travelcard does not cover Clapham Junction and you can't reasonably have got there on Overground given your entry point then I'd imagine your card would be rejected. Might need some more thought on this latter point given that many entry points have no gates or validators - hmm. It will become *much* more fun when PAYG extends to other lines and the route and zone combinations become more complex. -- Paul C Given the interchanges possible at West Brompton etc, the only journeys that could be rejected are ones to and from Wimbledon or Richmond that are too quick. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On 11 Nov, 14:28, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:59:32 +0000, Graham Murray wrote: Paul Corfield writes: Presumably these are for people changing on to the services from other lines while the SWT ticket gates at the station periphery have presumably been modified for PAYG acceptance but only for valid PAYG destinations from Clapham (for exit validation). Would that not be too much checking for the gates, as it would have been possible to have travelled from almost anywhere on the Underground network to the Bakerloo line and thence on the DC lines to Watford Junction and then to Clapham Junction - all without having to touch out and in again when changing. I wouldn't have thought so. Depending on the route you're either "in" the system at a valid entry point the exit gate will recognise and you're within 2 hours of entry or you aren't if the trip is entirely on PAYG. The alternative is that you're on a Travelcard on an Oyster card and you're either in your zones or you aren't and you last entered at a valid PAYG point or you did not. If your entire trip is covered by Travelcard then no issue. If some PAYG is required to cover the part not covered by your Travelcard zones then the gate should calculate just a LU gate does. If you are exiting and your Travelcard does not cover Clapham Junction and you can't reasonably have got there on Overground given your entry point then I'd imagine your card would be rejected. Might need some more thought on this latter point given that many entry points have no gates or validators - hmm. I'd fully expect that if there wasn't a valid touch-in detected then when going through the gates to exit then the Oyster card's PAYG balance would have the "maximum cash fare" of £4 deducted from it, as opposed to having the card rejected - this is certainly the normal behaviour of LU ticket gates. It will become *much* more fun when PAYG extends to other lines and the route and zone combinations become more complex. -- Paul C My head creaks at the sheer thought of it. Blimey, I really hope that there's some bright back-room bods dealing with this at Oyster HQ! |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
Paul Corfield wrote: On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 02:38:44 -0800, Mizter T wrote: On 11 Nov, 09:58, Paul Corfield wrote: http://www.southernrailway.com/main.php?page_id=461 confirms the Southern PAYG acceptance between Watford and Clapham Junctions. Well, wow - straight from the horses mouth - thanks Paul for flagging that up. I must say I'm a bit surprised to find that Southern have provided a straightforward webpage that explains their acceptance of PAYG on this route, though really I shouldn't be! Alas the line diagram on that page doesn't make it clear that there are two quite different services up the West London Line - i.e. Southern and London Overground. I think Southern are actually quite enthusiastic about PAYG. There was supposed to be a pilot acceptance of PAYG between Victoria and Balham on their services but it didn't come off. That would have been similar to the One situation of Liverpool St - Walthamstow C / Seven Sisters / Tottenham Hale. Yes, I remember the Balham - Victoria trial trial that never happened (probably because I read your posts about it!). Southern have been pricing their fares on a zonal basis since January 2005, which can be seen to support your notion that they're favourable towards PAYG. Acceptance would certainly be a popular move south of the river. It's entirely right that they've taken the time to explain the new acceptance and to get it right on day one. Of course it is - I'm just a bit surprised they have! As far as I can see that's the first bit of passenger facing communication on the web about the acceptance of Oyster PAYG from Watford Junction. I note this bit in the text: "Please do not use your PAYG Oyster Card to pass through the gates if you are NOT travelling on the above services to Watford Junction or intermediate stations." I have not been to Clapham Junction for a very long time but reports elsewhere on uk.railway have said there are validators at each of the relevant platforms for the Southern / Overground service. Presumably these are for people changing on to the services from other lines while the SWT ticket gates at the station periphery have presumably been modified for PAYG acceptance but only for valid PAYG destinations from Clapham (for exit validation). As I say in a post elsewhere I'd expect those exiting Clapham Jn without a valid touch-in to just be 'fined' the £4 "maximum cash fare" as happens elsewhere on the LU network (or maybe even £5 as applies at National Rail termini) . Perhaps this won't be the case, and thus the card will be rejected and the passenger will have to explain themselves. I'm afraid to say that this is going to be a problem at Clapham Junction, with people erroneously thinking that Oyster PAYG is now good for all train services from that station. I expect Clapham Junction will unfortunately produce a steady flow of unresolved journeys. To be fair Mizter T there could always be problems where you have partial acceptance of a product on limited stretches of line. However that should not stop people making the effort to get parts of the network working. From my limited observations there seems to be no problem with people adjusting to the idea between Liverpool St and Walthamstow Central. People going on the train touch the validators as necessary and that's that. I absolutely agree with your sentiments. Apart from anything else getting it working on some routes might well chivvy the TOCs into adopting it on their other routes. I would just point out that the Walthamstow example you give is somewhat different to Clapham Jn, as the predominant flow at Walthamstow is to/from central London. At Clapham Jn the passengers flows are going in all directions, in particular to/from Waterloo and Victoria - routes where PAYG will not be valid. I think I'll be going through Clapham Jn this week so I'll take a look at how well publicised the situation is there, and maybe quiz the staff on the gate. Though I do feel for them as I expect there will inevitably be a significant level of confusion (and annoyance if the £4 max cash fare 'penalty' for unresolved journeys is charged). I've stated many times before the odd situation at London Bridge where PAYG is valid on the FCC Thameslink route but only northbound and only as far as Kentish Town. The gates don't recognise PAYG at all, instead one must ask to be let through the manual gate and touch-in or out on the Oyster reader on the Thameslink platforms. I'm sure this only works because the number of people who'll enter London Bridge station wishing to travel on Thameslink as opposed to the Northern line (or vice versa) must be minuscule. There is only an issue where people are touched in and the service is suspended and they then head downstairs to go by tube. The LU staff are now adept at getting people through without a double touch in. OOI how do they handle this? And does a double touch-in matter? I'm not sure it is necessarily a problem. I've touched in twice before, when I thought absent mindedly I might have gone through the gates on someone elses ticket at rush hour, so I touched-in on the reader by the manual gate - in fact originally I'd touched in correctly, but the double touch-in didn't seem to cause any problems (though this might have been because I'd reached a daily cap, I can't remember). I can easily try doing this again soon by touching-in (or indeed out) twice as I pass through Highbury & Islington station, as there are readers on the Vic line platforms as well as ticket gates. If the double touch-in does cause problems could not the Oyster readers on the 'one' platforms and on the LU gates be configured so as to tolerate this? |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:06:23 -0000, Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
It's always been like that. It's to prevent holders of (e.g.) Z2-6 Travelcards being charged a Z1 extension fare when they make those journeys using the NLL. Are there any cases where a travelcard holder can make a detour journey, even an unusual one, staying entirely within validity but get charged an extension because the system assumes a trip into zone 1? Yes, this will happen in every such case, as the system does not know which route the passenger actually took. Each pair of origin/destination stations is assigned a set of zones that the passenger is assumed to pass through when travelling between them. For example, Finchley Road to Barons Court would be defined as a Z12 journey. Even if you travelled via Rayners Lane, a Z2345 journey, you would still be charged for a Z12 journey (including excess fares as appropriate). If you held a Z2345 Travelcard season and wished to avoid the Z1 excess fare, you could leave and re-enter the station at Rayners Lane, so that you would instead be making two separate Z2345 journeys. Conversely, this also means that if your journey is defined as not being via Z1, you can legally travel via Z1 and not get charged the via-Z1 fare. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On 11 Nov, 01:59, Mizter T wrote:
On 11 Nov, 00:56, Tim Woodall wrote: On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:06:38 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote: On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 15:51:46 +0000, asdf wrote: On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:04:51 -0800, wrote: (Actually, my guess is that oyster won't be ready at these stations at the weekend so the information hasn't been published to stop people thinking they will be able to use it) I have to agree - I'll be pleasantly surprised if PAYG is valid beyond Hatch End tomorrow. I am told via another group that the following applies. PAYG - Watford - Euston on Overground services PAYG - Harrow & Wealdstone - Euston on London Midland (no change from Silverlink validity) PAYG - Watford Junction - Clapham Junction on Southern PAYG *not* valid on London Midland from Watford Junction - Harrow and Wealdstone. I am waiting for a response to a question as to whether the above non availability also means no availability of PAYG between Watford and Euston on London Midland services. Fascinating. So you can take any train except a London Midland train from Watford Junction on PAYG and then change onto a London Midland train at H&W that will have stopped at WJ anyway! So it would seem! Bear in mind that London Midland will have inherited the situation at H&W from Silverlink, and if you go to H&W you'll see it is implemented grudgingly - there are *no* Oyster readers on the main line side of the platforms, they are only on the DC line side and on the overbridge near the stairs that lead down to the DC line platforms. Nor, as I recall, are there any posters to advise you of the situation. This is no longer the case, over the last week to 10 days, proper tickets gates have been installed and they were active (saying oyster only) but kept open this morning. These have been installed on both sides of the station, making Harrow and Wealdstone a fully gated station now. There was also commissioning work under way at Clapham Junction, with the gate line gates being worked on. Presumably to 'activate' PAYG here as well. Whether this will change will be interesting - H&W is to be a London Overground station, managed by LU. Perhaps TfL won't want to upset the apple cart - if they promote the availability of Oyster on the fast trains, London Midland might have a strop and attempt to withdraw it - that said I've no idea whether they'd have the power to do so under their franchise agreement. A bit of a nuisance, yes. I'm sure TfL would be happy to negotiate with London Midland in the hope of coming up with a reasonable deal that would be conducive to both parties. I dare suggest the ball is in London Midland's side of the court on this one. It's going to be fun seeing a guard attempting to scan all the oystercards between Harrow and Watford Junction, if they don't accept it on the semi-fast services!! Please don't shoot the messenger given the inconsistencies in the above position. More changes due for the Jan Fares Revision but I don't know what they are. No shooting here. Whilst, of course, everybody is hoping for cheaper fares, I think the main complaint is that nobody is certain when and where tickets are going to be available/valid. I'm assuming that my gold card will remain valid on the DC line from Watford Junction but even that hasn't been explicitly set out. (I've always assumed that it's not valid on the Bakerloo line for the stations that are the same as the DC line BICBW) Tim. Agreed on the lack of information. As I say elsewhere, one fear TfL might have had about any pre-publicity is that people might have got confused and started attempting to use Oyster PAYG on Silverlink Metro before it became valid. Your Gold Card will remain valid on the DC line from Watford Junction - and you'll be pleased to read that your assumption regarding the Bakerloo line was wrong, as your Gold Card will remain valid, as it always has been, on Bakerloo line trains between H&W and Queen's Park - i.e. on the shared section of the DC line. This can be confirmed by looking at the ticket inter-availability table on page L5 of section L of the National Fares Manual, which can be seen here (PDF): http://www.atoc.org/retail/_downloads/NFM97/NFM97_Common_L.pdf With regards to other points in the thread. The guard on the Southern service that I took confirmed that Oyster PAYG is valid throughout on the Watford Junction - Clapham Junction, as of 11th November. He wasn't sure about whether it was valid on London Midland though. He also said that he wasn't sure what fare would be charged if it were to be used to Watford!! |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Nov 11, 2:06 pm, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll-
wrote: asdf wrote: It's always been like that. It's to prevent holders of (e.g.) Z2-6 Travelcards being charged a Z1 extension fare when they make those journeys using the NLL. Are there any cases where a travelcard holder can make a detour journey, even an unusual one, staying entirely within validity but get charged an extension because the system assumes a trip into zone 1? Yes - the system assumes the most obvious route. Eg Wembley Park to Hammersmith probably assumes via Zone 1 rather than via Rayners Lane. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On 11 Nov, 10:38, Mizter T wrote:
I note this bit in the text: "Please do not use your PAYG Oyster Card to pass through the gates if you are NOT travelling on the above services to Watford Junction or intermediate stations." I'm afraid to say that this is going to be a problem at Clapham Junction, with people erroneously thinking that Oyster PAYG is now good for all train services from that station. I expect Clapham Junction will unfortunately produce a steady flow of unresolved journey. There are quite a lot of signs and stickers around the 'town' exit from the station saying that PAYG is only valid on the routes to Willesden and Watford Junctions. They are certainly much clearer than signs at London Bridge regarding PAYG on Thameslink. Presumably because TfL have been involved |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
"Andy" wrote in message oups.com... On 11 Nov, 01:59, Mizter T wrote: On 11 Nov, 00:56, Tim Woodall wrote: On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:06:38 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote: On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 15:51:46 +0000, asdf wrote: On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:04:51 -0800, wrote: (Actually, my guess is that oyster won't be ready at these stations at the weekend so the information hasn't been published to stop people thinking they will be able to use it) I have to agree - I'll be pleasantly surprised if PAYG is valid beyond Hatch End tomorrow. I am told via another group that the following applies. PAYG - Watford - Euston on Overground services PAYG - Harrow & Wealdstone - Euston on London Midland (no change from Silverlink validity) PAYG - Watford Junction - Clapham Junction on Southern PAYG *not* valid on London Midland from Watford Junction - Harrow and Wealdstone. I am waiting for a response to a question as to whether the above non availability also means no availability of PAYG between Watford and Euston on London Midland services. Fascinating. So you can take any train except a London Midland train from Watford Junction on PAYG and then change onto a London Midland train at H&W that will have stopped at WJ anyway! So it would seem! Bear in mind that London Midland will have inherited the situation at H&W from Silverlink, and if you go to H&W you'll see it is implemented grudgingly - there are *no* Oyster readers on the main line side of the platforms, they are only on the DC line side and on the overbridge near the stairs that lead down to the DC line platforms. Nor, as I recall, are there any posters to advise you of the situation. This is no longer the case, over the last week to 10 days, proper tickets gates have been installed and they were active (saying oyster only) but kept open this morning. These have been installed on both sides of the station, making Harrow and Wealdstone a fully gated station now. There was also commissioning work under way at Clapham Junction, with the gate line gates being worked on. Presumably to 'activate' PAYG here as well. Whether this will change will be interesting - H&W is to be a London Overground station, managed by LU. Perhaps TfL won't want to upset the apple cart - if they promote the availability of Oyster on the fast trains, London Midland might have a strop and attempt to withdraw it - that said I've no idea whether they'd have the power to do so under their franchise agreement. A bit of a nuisance, yes. I'm sure TfL would be happy to negotiate with London Midland in the hope of coming up with a reasonable deal that would be conducive to both parties. I dare suggest the ball is in London Midland's side of the court on this one. It's going to be fun seeing a guard attempting to scan all the oystercards between Harrow and Watford Junction, if they don't accept it on the semi-fast services!! Please don't shoot the messenger given the inconsistencies in the above position. More changes due for the Jan Fares Revision but I don't know what they are. No shooting here. Whilst, of course, everybody is hoping for cheaper fares, I think the main complaint is that nobody is certain when and where tickets are going to be available/valid. I'm assuming that my gold card will remain valid on the DC line from Watford Junction but even that hasn't been explicitly set out. (I've always assumed that it's not valid on the Bakerloo line for the stations that are the same as the DC line BICBW) Tim. Agreed on the lack of information. As I say elsewhere, one fear TfL might have had about any pre-publicity is that people might have got confused and started attempting to use Oyster PAYG on Silverlink Metro before it became valid. Your Gold Card will remain valid on the DC line from Watford Junction - and you'll be pleased to read that your assumption regarding the Bakerloo line was wrong, as your Gold Card will remain valid, as it always has been, on Bakerloo line trains between H&W and Queen's Park - i.e. on the shared section of the DC line. This can be confirmed by looking at the ticket inter-availability table on page L5 of section L of the National Fares Manual, which can be seen here (PDF): http://www.atoc.org/retail/_downloads/NFM97/NFM97_Common_L.pdf With regards to other points in the thread. The guard on the Southern service that I took confirmed that Oyster PAYG is valid throughout on the Watford Junction - Clapham Junction, as of 11th November. He wasn't sure about whether it was valid on London Midland though. He also said that he wasn't sure what fare would be charged if it were to be used to Watford!! The LO timetable booklet (hard copy version) states that London Midland will accept Oyster PAYG from Watford Junction to Euston. Paul S |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:59:50 -0800, Mizter T
wrote: On 11 Nov, 00:56, Tim Woodall wrote: On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:06:38 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote: On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 15:51:46 +0000, asdf wrote: On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:04:51 -0800, wrote: (Actually, my guess is that oyster won't be ready at these stations at the weekend so the information hasn't been published to stop people thinking they will be able to use it) I have to agree - I'll be pleasantly surprised if PAYG is valid beyond Hatch End tomorrow. I am told via another group that the following applies. PAYG - Watford - Euston on Overground services PAYG - Harrow & Wealdstone - Euston on London Midland (no change from Silverlink validity) PAYG - Watford Junction - Clapham Junction on Southern PAYG *not* valid on London Midland from Watford Junction - Harrow and Wealdstone. I am waiting for a response to a question as to whether the above non availability also means no availability of PAYG between Watford and Euston on London Midland services. Fascinating. So you can take any train except a London Midland train from Watford Junction on PAYG and then change onto a London Midland train at H&W that will have stopped at WJ anyway! So it would seem! Bear in mind that London Midland will have inherited the situation at H&W from Silverlink, and if you go to H&W you'll see it is implemented grudgingly - there are *no* Oyster readers on the main line side of the platforms, they are only on the DC line side and on the overbridge near the stairs that lead down to the DC line platforms. Nor, as I recall, are there any posters to advise you of the situation. Whether this will change will be interesting - H&W is to be a London Overground station, managed by LU. Perhaps TfL won't want to upset the apple cart - if they promote the availability of Oyster on the fast trains, London Midland might have a strop and attempt to withdraw it - that said I've no idea whether they'd have the power to do so under their franchise agreement. Shouldn't that be - Harrow remains a Network Rail station, to be managed by LU/TfL and that LO is merely one of the train franchises/operators serving the station. snip |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Sat, 10 Nov 2007, Mizter T wrote:
Anyway, that's just me speculating on how it could work. It remains a bit of a shame that Watford Junction isn't going to become part of the Met line zonal system (i.e. become part of zone A), especially given the fact the Met's Watford station is in the same town, albeit 15 (?) mins walk away from Watford Jn. But quite predictable nonetheless. I wonder how this would interact with the Croxley Link. Watford Junction and High Street becoming dual-zone 7M/8W? 8M/8W? tom -- **** bitches, you know how I swang. I gets my cinna-on at the Cinna-bon. -- K-Real |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
asdf wrote:
Are there any cases where a travelcard holder can make a detour journey, even an unusual one, staying entirely within validity but get charged an extension because the system assumes a trip into zone 1? Yes, this will happen in every such case, as the system does not know which route the passenger actually took. Each pair of origin/destination stations is assigned a set of zones that the passenger is assumed to pass through when travelling between them. Which does somewhat clash with the basic concept of the travelcard... For example, Finchley Road to Barons Court would be defined as a Z12 journey. Even if you travelled via Rayners Lane, a Z2345 journey, you would still be charged for a Z12 journey (including excess fares as appropriate). If you held a Z2345 Travelcard season and wished to avoid the Z1 excess fare, you could leave and re-enter the station at Rayners Lane, so that you would instead be making two separate Z2345 journeys. So if someone did make the round about journey and got charged on exit - or even had no money on their PAYG - what would happen if they pursued a refund? As far as I can make out, they would have made a legitimate journey using a totally valid means of travel and been charged additional. That sounds like the basis of an interesting legal case. Conversely, this also means that if your journey is defined as not being via Z1, you can legally travel via Z1 and not get charged the via-Z1 fare. Well yes - but if you get checked at an interchange or en route (not that TfL seems to bother with human ticket checks) would that line get you off the hook? |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:26:03 -0000, Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
Conversely, this also means that if your journey is defined as not being via Z1, you can legally travel via Z1 and not get charged the via-Z1 fare. Well yes - but if you get checked at an interchange or en route (not that TfL seems to bother with human ticket checks) would that line get you off the hook? You'd almost certainly be fine (unless you were doing something really unusual), as long as you'd touched in correctly. There don't appear to be any routeing rules on LU. Also, the ticket inspector would only be able to tell where you entered the system, not where you're going, so if you get checked in Z1 (where most of the human checks take place), everything would look reasonable. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 10:04:57 -0800, Andy wrote:
Whether this will change will be interesting - H&W is to be a London Overground station, managed by LU. Perhaps TfL won't want to upset the apple cart - if they promote the availability of Oyster on the fast trains, London Midland might have a strop and attempt to withdraw it - that said I've no idea whether they'd have the power to do so under their franchise agreement. A bit of a nuisance, yes. I'm sure TfL would be happy to negotiate with London Midland in the hope of coming up with a reasonable deal that would be conducive to both parties. I dare suggest the ball is in London Midland's side of the court on this one. It's going to be fun seeing a guard attempting to scan all the oystercards between Harrow and Watford Junction, if they don't accept it on the semi-fast services!! The guard wouldn't need to scan them to know that they're not valid... |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Nov 12, 12:54 am, asdf wrote:
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 10:04:57 -0800, Andy wrote: Whether this will change will be interesting - H&W is to be a London Overground station, managed by LU. Perhaps TfL won't want to upset the apple cart - if they promote the availability of Oyster on the fast trains, London Midland might have a strop and attempt to withdraw it - that said I've no idea whether they'd have the power to do so under their franchise agreement. A bit of a nuisance, yes. I'm sure TfL would be happy to negotiate with London Midland in the hope of coming up with a reasonable deal that would be conducive to both parties. I dare suggest the ball is in London Midland's side of the court on this one. It's going to be fun seeing a guard attempting to scan all the oystercards between Harrow and Watford Junction, if they don't accept it on the semi-fast services!! The guard wouldn't need to scan them to know that they're not valid... Well, it was my understanding that it will be possible to obtain Travelcard seasons on Oyster that are valid from Watford Junction. I can't remember where I saw the info though and it might only be from the next fares revision in January. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On 11 Nov, 16:35, asdf wrote:
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:06:23 -0000, Tim Roll-Pickering wrote: It's always been like that. It's to prevent holders of (e.g.) Z2-6 Travelcards being charged a Z1 extension fare when they make those journeys using the NLL. Are there any cases where a travelcard holder can make a detour journey, even an unusual one, staying entirely within validity but get charged an extension because the system assumes a trip into zone 1? Yes, this will happen in every such case, as the system does not know which route the passenger actually took. Each pair of origin/destination stations is assigned a set of zones that the passenger is assumed to pass through when travelling between them. For example, Finchley Road to Barons Court would be defined as a Z12 journey. Even if you travelled via Rayners Lane, a Z2345 journey, you would still be charged for a Z12 journey (including excess fares as appropriate). If you held a Z2345 Travelcard season and wished to avoid the Z1 excess fare, you could leave and re-enter the station at Rayners Lane, so that you would instead be making two separate Z2345 journeys. Though one would avoid any such issues if one held a paper season Travelcard. I'm thinking less in terms of the example you gave - the system seems to define which journeys might go via Rayners Lane or via Zone 1 fairly sensibly (and one can work out what routing is presumed by querying the Single Fare finder [1]) - and more in terms of journeys along the North London Line. For example starting at Richmond an NLL journey as far as Caledonian Road and Barnsbury is defined as avoiding zone 1, but a journey to Highbury & Islington (H&I) and points east is defined as via zone 1. The TfL Journey Planner actually states that the NLL route and the Underground route via Central London both have broadly the same journey times. Of course the NLL is less frequent than the Underground, and the NLL is perhaps more prone to disruption. But the NLL is easy - all the way there without a change (though at peak times it gets pretty packed). But if the routing logic has been applied to season Travelcards on Oyster as well as Oyster PAYG (and it would follow that the same logic applies to both) then whichever route one takes from Richmond to H&I one would be charged for a via zone 1 journey. This also leads on to the possibility that some people who have a zones 2-4 Travelcard on Oyster and normally take the NLL route will be charged extra for presumed zone 1 journeys starting from yesterday - which I can imagine causing utmost confusion! It also raises the possibility that only some people with such Travelcards on Oyster would be charged this extra if they touched-in and out - so those who go through an NLL gated station at the start or end of their journey will get charged the extra, whilst those who don't and just enter or exit the station without touching-in or out won't get charged the extra. (The Oyster T&Cs do state that everyone should touch-in or out regardless of whether they are using PAYG or a Travelcard, but as far as I can see this is not enforced.) The point being, it would seem that for some longer Overground / NLL journeys such as Richmond to H&I passengers might actually be better off with a paper Travelcard. I think some testing on the ground might be called for! Just one other thing - will LO stations continue to sell paper season Travelcards, or will they be phased out? Conversely, this also means that if your journey is defined as not being via Z1, you can legally travel via Z1 and not get charged the via-Z1 fare. I agree with that. Just to apply this to my Richmond to H&I example - a Richmond to Caledonian Road & Barnsbury journey is defined as avoiding zone 1, so it would appear one could in fact travel via central London to H&I (e.g. via the Victoria line) and then change for the NLL one stop west to Caledonian Road & Barnsbury and be charged for a non-zone 1 journey. Though to be blunt you'd probably be best off going direct via the NLL - unless, of course, a part of it wasn't running (as will be the case next weekend when Richmond to Acton Central will be closed). ----- [1] TfL Single Fare finder http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...07/farefinder/ |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
Tim Roll-Pickering wrote: asdf wrote: Are there any cases where a travelcard holder can make a detour journey, even an unusual one, staying entirely within validity but get charged an extension because the system assumes a trip into zone 1? Yes, this will happen in every such case, as the system does not know which route the passenger actually took. Each pair of origin/destination stations is assigned a set of zones that the passenger is assumed to pass through when travelling between them. Which does somewhat clash with the basic concept of the travelcard... See my other post - I come to the possible conclusion that holding a paper season Travelcard might actually be preferable for some longer journeys on the NLL. Which, as a fan of Oyster, isn't the kind of conclusion I like. For example, Finchley Road to Barons Court would be defined as a Z12 journey. Even if you travelled via Rayners Lane, a Z2345 journey, you would still be charged for a Z12 journey (including excess fares as appropriate). If you held a Z2345 Travelcard season and wished to avoid the Z1 excess fare, you could leave and re-enter the station at Rayners Lane, so that you would instead be making two separate Z2345 journeys. So if someone did make the round about journey and got charged on exit - or even had no money on their PAYG - what would happen if they pursued a refund? As far as I can make out, they would have made a legitimate journey using a totally valid means of travel and been charged additional. That sounds like the basis of an interesting legal case. I agree, it's a very interesting scenario - I go into this in detail in my other post. There does I suppose remain the possibility that on the system is configured to allow for such cases when someone holds a Travelcard valid for both their starting and finishing zones and could reasonably have travelled on the NLL. Conversely, this also means that if your journey is defined as not being via Z1, you can legally travel via Z1 and not get charged the via-Z1 fare. Well yes - but if you get checked at an interchange or en route (not that TfL seems to bother with human ticket checks) would that line get you off the hook? As asdf says as long as you've touched in somewhere it doesn't matter where you are. I think the only rule is that you must broadly be going somewhere - i.e. if you touched in at Ealing Broadway, and are checked on a Met line train going south from Chesham having not touched-in there then the ticket inspector might reasonably ask where you were going - if you say Ealing Common then I'd think you'd be in trouble. In other words simply touching-in doesn't mean you have the freedom of the whole network to roam it at will (though if you have a season Travelcard on Oyster you have the freedom to roam the zones you have at will). Of course your journey would time-out after two hours as well, so even if you didn't get checked you'd get 2 x £4 "max cash fare" 'penalties'. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Nov 12, 10:14 am, Mizter T wrote:
Tim Roll-Pickering wrote: asdf wrote: Are there any cases where a travelcard holder can make a detour journey, even an unusual one, staying entirely within validity but get charged an extension because the system assumes a trip into zone 1? Yes, this will happen in every such case, as the system does not know which route the passenger actually took. Each pair of origin/destination stations is assigned a set of zones that the passenger is assumed to pass through when travelling between them. Which does somewhat clash with the basic concept of the travelcard... See my other post - I come to the possible conclusion that holding a paper season Travelcard might actually be preferable for some longer journeys on the NLL. Which, as a fan of Oyster, isn't the kind of conclusion I like. It's a pity you can't buy "paper" tickets with oyster. Imagine going up to the ticket machine at WJ and clicking to buy an all-zones travel card. Touching your oyster PAYG and you're done. The travelcard is loaded onto the oyster card for the day. (Obviously you'd actually need the paper ticket if you are going on trains where the guards don't have oyster readers so maybe the machine could (optionally?) print a paper ticket as well - "Only valid when presented with oyster card whatever") Tim. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
Not bad - the North London line is already shut between Dalston &
Stratford on its first workday iun new colours.... There's a major fire in an ex-bus depot in Stratford, near the old speedway stadium....the smoke plume can be seen from west London! |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
Mizter T wrote:
I think the only rule is that you must broadly be going somewhere - i.e. if you touched in at Ealing Broadway, and are checked on a Met line train going south from Chesham having not touched-in there then the ticket inspector might reasonably ask where you were going - if you say Ealing Common then I'd think you'd be in trouble. In other words simply touching-in doesn't mean you have the freedom of the whole network to roam it at will (though if you have a season Travelcard on Oyster you have the freedom to roam the zones you have at will). Of course your journey would time-out after two hours as well, so even if you didn't get checked you'd get 2 x £4 "max cash fare" 'penalties'. Hmm - I wonder how the system coped with the closure of Shoreditch when there may well have been many people travelling to and from the station for the sheer heck of it. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
In message .com,
Chris writes Not bad - the North London line is already shut between Dalston & Stratford on its first workday iun new colours.... There's a major fire in an ex-bus depot in Stratford, near the old speedway stadium....the smoke plume can be seen from west London! Is that what it is? I wondered when I hear where it was if it was near the bus garage; so it *was* the bus garage on fire? -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
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London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:19:58 -0800, Mizter T
wrote: Of course there would still be the tricky issue of which route the Oyster system presumed you had taken, regardless of what actual route you did in fact take. Richmond-Stratford, anyone? Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
Neil Williams wrote:
Of course there would still be the tricky issue of which route the Oyster system presumed you had taken, regardless of what actual route you did in fact take. Richmond-Stratford, anyone? As I live just down the road from Stratford and do some research in Kew I could give it a go if I didn't have my season already - anyone care to buy me a ticket that doesn't cover zone 1? |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On 12 Nov, 21:08, (Neil Williams)
wrote: On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:19:58 -0800, Mizter T wrote: Of course there would still be the tricky issue of which route the Oyster system presumed you had taken, regardless of what actual route you did in fact take. Richmond-Stratford, anyone? Neil If you up thread you'll see that's exactly the kind of issue I was focussing on, specifically with reference to the North London Line. You can extrapolate the Oyster routing assumptions made by querying the TfL "Single Fare finder" facility - as a non-Z1 journey is charged at £1 and a via Z1 journey is charged at £2.50 peak / £2 off-peak. Richmond to as far as Caledonian Road & Barnesbury is defined as a non- Z1 journey, whilst one stop further to Highbury & Islington is defined as via Z1. Meanwhile Stratford to Kensal Rise is defined as a non-Z1 journey, whilst one stop further to Willesden Junction is defined as via Z1. I genuinely wonder if there isn't an exception written in to the system to cater for zone 2&3(&4) season Travelcards and journeys along the NLL - otherwise a number of people making their normal NLL commute today using a Z2&3 Travelcard loaded on an Oyster card would have been in for a bit of a surprise today as the system would have attempted to charge them the extra for a Z1 journey. I am very curious about this, and I'd really like to know what is actually happening on the ground (I might just do it to find out). |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
((delurks again))
On 12 Nov, 17:19, Mizter T wrote: The preferable situation would be for all lines in London to accept Oyster PAYG, and then all passengers could benefit from daily price capping (which is in a way akin to a Day Travelcard except you don't have to plan ahead before you start travelling that day). Of course there would still be the tricky issue of which route the Oyster system presumed you had taken, regardless of what actual route you did in fact take. And that tricky issue will get trickier and trickier with every new line that accepts PAYG. You've already mentioned the Stratford/ Richmond problem that comes from adding PAYG on the NLL. There are probably others that we haven't spotted yet. (e.g. West Brompton? And what happens when Shepherds Bush WLL finally opens?) TfL were able to get away with implementing the current PAYG on the Underground/DLR because the network was small enough that it didn't throw up too many anomalies. As the system expands, more and more exceptions have to be specifically identified and programmed into the system. I've said this before, and no-one beleived me, but the best way to keep things simple is by abandoning the idea of all route-based fares (including zones that you pass through on route). Instead fares could be based on the straight-line, as-the-crow-flies distance between the journey's start and end points, no matter what route is taken. This would solve all the zone-based and route-based anomalies, even the ones that currently exist with paper tickets. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
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London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Nov 12, 5:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:
the passenger actually took. But I'm afraid to say I disagree with your idea anyway. What your proposal boils down to in essence is to use an Oyster as if it were a cashless card system, and so use the PAYG balance to buy a ticket. Instead I'd say that if you want a Day Travelcard you can just as well buy it with cash or a debit/credit card. The preferable situation would be for all lines in London to accept Oyster PAYG, and then all passengers could benefit from daily price capping (which is in a way akin to a Day Travelcard except you don't have to plan ahead before you start travelling that day). I agree that the preferable situation is for PAYG to just work everywhere but I was just imagining a temporary measure. Every out of zone station could have a machine whos only job is to put a one day travel card onto a PAYG oyster card. This will avoid the need to queue and surely must be faster than using cash or card in the automatic machines. === I do notice that I can use PAYG from Watford Junction to Kensington Olympia and it's only 4GBP. I might try that journey this Friday if the strike is still on and it's not hissing it down with rain. Just a shame there isn't a direct service between 06:05 and 07:18. Tim. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Nov 12, 5:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:
wrote: On Nov 12, 10:14 am, Mizter T wrote: Tim Roll-Pickering wrote: asdf wrote: Are there any cases where a travelcard holder can make a detour journey, even an unusual one, staying entirely within validity but get charged an extension because the system assumes a trip into zone 1? Yes, this will happen in every such case, as the system does not know which route the passenger actually took. Each pair of origin/destination stations is assigned a set of zones that the passenger is assumed to pass through when travelling between them. Which does somewhat clash with the basic concept of the travelcard... See my other post - I come to the possible conclusion that holding a paper season Travelcard might actually be preferable for some longer journeys on the NLL. Which, as a fan of Oyster, isn't the kind of conclusion I like. It's a pity you can't buy "paper" tickets with oyster. Imagine going up to the ticket machine at WJ and clicking to buy an all-zones travel card. Touching your oyster PAYG and you're done. The travelcard is loaded onto the oyster card for the day. (Obviously you'd actually need the paper ticket if you are going on trains where the guards don't have oyster readers so maybe the machine could (optionally?) print a paper ticket as well - "Only valid when presented with oyster card whatever") Tim. First off, almost all ticket inspectors on trains in London do have Oyster readers - including on the lines that don't accept Oyster PAYG. Why? Because passengers might well have a Travelcard season loaded on their Oyster card. Actually, I don't think that I've ever had my oyster read on any of the ex-Silverlink routes. South West Trains (plus South Eastern) staff certainly seem to have Oyster readers, but I don't think that the Silverlink staff did. Every time my oyster has been inspected on the silverlink main line services, I've just waved the card and there has been no questions asked!! This was also true yesterday ;) |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
Andy wrote:
Actually, I don't think that I've ever had my oyster read on any of the ex-Silverlink routes. South West Trains (plus South Eastern) staff certainly seem to have Oyster readers, but I don't think that the Silverlink staff did. Every time my oyster has been inspected on the silverlink main line services, I've just waved the card and there has been no questions asked!! This was also true yesterday ;) I've had mine checked a few times by a man with an Oyster reader on the GOBLIN. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On 13 Nov, 12:28, Tom Anderson wrote:
Great, so now, to work out how much i'm going to pay for a ticket, i have to know how far apart my start and end stations are. At present, i can trace a line along a tube map marked with the zones to work out my fare; how am i going to do it under your system? Are you going to put up geographically accurate maps in stations, and suggest people carry tape measures with them? I assume you've got a rough idea of whether one place is further away than another, just from glancing at a map. That should give you a rough estimate of how much you should expect to pay. Counting the zones isn't always reliable or accurate, as you and others have pointed out in this thread. (The NLL route from Richmond to Stratford doesn't go through zone one, but is priced as if it does.) Your idea also throws out the financial incentive to avoid zone 1. Since zone 1 is the most congested bit of the network, and a shift of passengers to orbital routes is a key part of the strategy to deal with this, that seems rather perverse. If "zone 1 is the most congested bit of the network", then clearly the current system hasn't succeeded in keeping passengers out of it. But then how could it? If you need to go into central London, then you need to go into Z1. No amount of fare juggling will change that! What we need to do is step back and look at the cause of the problem. Why do so many people need to go into Z1 in the first place? And how can we change that? How do we restructure London's geography away from the traditional "centre vs. suburbs" structure that we're currently stuck with? The current situation might work for somehwere half London's size, but it's causing all the problems here! The development of Docklands in the eighties & nineties was a step in the right direction, but why hasn't it been followed up with similar projects in South, West and North London? Possibly partly because the current transport system and zonal structure is based on the "everyone travels to-from central London" model, and it reinforces that concept among travellers. The very name "Zone 1" helps to reinforce the idea that the centre is a more prestigious and more desirable destination than anywhere else. The existence of Zone 1 isn't part of the solution. It's definitely part of the problem. |
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