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London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
"Neil Williams" wrote in message ... On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:19:58 -0800, Mizter T wrote: Of course there would still be the tricky issue of which route the Oyster system presumed you had taken, regardless of what actual route you did in fact take. Richmond-Stratford, anyone? The system works on idea that the passenger takes the quickest and most direct route, so for Oyster usage R-S should be done via District Line and Central Line, changing at Mile End and taking 43 minutes (max 57) according to Planner times. The TfL Journey Planner tells you to take SWT to Waterloo, W&C to Bank and then Central Line in 57 minutes. Doing it by the Overground, which is the simplest route, takes 1hr3min. I think the TfL Journey Planner needs an overhaul to suggest more sensible routes and not base it entirely on departure times. I suspect that if any journey takes more than 2 hours you get charged with the maximum fare. I went Richmond to North Woolwich (and then back to Epping)when that stretch closed down, spent 20 minutes at NW taking pictures and got stuck with the max possible fare because the Oyster system timed me out. It might have been an invalid route at the time but I did touch in and out at the correct places. It also does this when the Tube breaks down for long periods, as happened to me earlier this year, but thankfully that one got capped at the Daily Travelcard rate because the breakdown was after 9.30am. Nick -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On 13 Nov, 15:07, wrote:
Counting the zones isn't always reliable or accurate, as you and others have pointed out in this thread. (The NLL route from Richmond to Stratford doesn't go through zone one, but is priced as if it does.) Have we established that this is the case, or is it just conjecture based on the status quo pre-London Overground? I'd be surprised if it were [the case], given the obvious and immediate potential for confusion, annoyance and bad PR... -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On 13 Nov, 14:22, John B wrote:
On 13 Nov, 15:07, wrote: Counting the zones isn't always reliable or accurate, as you and others have pointed out in this thread. (The NLL route from Richmond to Stratford doesn't go through zone one, but is priced as if it does.) Have we established that this is the case, or is it just conjecture based on the status quo pre-London Overground? I'd be surprised if it were [the case], given the obvious and immediate potential for confusion, annoyance and bad PR... -- John Band The TfL Single Fare finder suggests it is priced as such - and I am led to believe (perhaps wrongly) that the data used by that facility matches that of the fares tables in the Oyster database. However I can imagine it is possible that there is an exception written in to the system for season Travelcards (in this case those that cover zones 2-4). However if (and that's a big if) there is such an exception it presumably wouldn't make a difference to the assumed zones travelled through with regards to daily capping rates. But you're right to say there is a lot of conjecture flying around, a fair bit of it coming from me! I need to get out there and try some of these journeys out. I am unfortunately a bit tied up at the moment but if I can I will. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 07:15:46 -0800, Mizter T
wrote: On 13 Nov, 14:22, John B wrote: On 13 Nov, 15:07, wrote: Counting the zones isn't always reliable or accurate, as you and others have pointed out in this thread. (The NLL route from Richmond to Stratford doesn't go through zone one, but is priced as if it does.) Have we established that this is the case, or is it just conjecture based on the status quo pre-London Overground? I'd be surprised if it were [the case], given the obvious and immediate potential for confusion, annoyance and bad PR... -- John Band The TfL Single Fare finder suggests it is priced as such - and I am led to believe (perhaps wrongly) that the data used by that facility matches that of the fares tables in the Oyster database. I wouldn't rely on that finder being correct. I tried it a few months ago for a journey via the WLL to Kensington and it offered a (not via Zone 1) PAYG fare despite the route being invalid for PAYG. snip |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
wrote in message ps.com... On Nov 12, 5:19 pm, Mizter T wrote: the passenger actually took. But I'm afraid to say I disagree with your idea anyway. What your proposal boils down to in essence is to use an Oyster as if it were a cashless card system, and so use the PAYG balance to buy a ticket. Instead I'd say that if you want a Day Travelcard you can just as well buy it with cash or a debit/credit card. The preferable situation would be for all lines in London to accept Oyster PAYG, and then all passengers could benefit from daily price capping (which is in a way akin to a Day Travelcard except you don't have to plan ahead before you start travelling that day). I agree that the preferable situation is for PAYG to just work everywhere but I was just imagining a temporary measure. Every out of zone station could have a machine whos only job is to put a one day travel card onto a PAYG oyster card. This will avoid the need to queue and surely must be faster than using cash or card in the automatic machines. That way, if you buy a day travelcard and don't happen to do enough journeys to use up the cost, you've wasted your money. PAYG capping is 50p less than the one day travelcard value, If you don't do enough jouneys to bring in the cap, you'll still have saved money over a travelcard. Paul |
Oyster routing logic on the NLL [was: London Overground from 11 Nov 2007]
On 13 Nov, 18:58, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 07:15:46 -0800, Mizter T wrote: On 13 Nov, 14:22, John B wrote: On 13 Nov, 15:07, wrote: Counting the zones isn't always reliable or accurate, as you and others have pointed out in this thread. (The NLL route from Richmond to Stratford doesn't go through zone one, but is priced as if it does.) Have we established that this is the case, or is it just conjecture based on the status quo pre-London Overground? I'd be surprised if it were [the case], given the obvious and immediate potential for confusion, annoyance and bad PR... -- John Band The TfL Single Fare finder suggests it is priced as such - and I am led to believe (perhaps wrongly) that the data used by that facility matches that of the fares tables in the Oyster database. I wouldn't rely on that finder being correct. I tried it a few months ago for a journey via the WLL to Kensington and it offered a (not via Zone 1) PAYG fare despite the route being invalid for PAYG. snip Aha... well, don't be so sure! I've been intending to post what I'm about write for ages, but never did. Please read on... I can say with some authority that despite PAYG not yet being valid on the NLL at the time the Tfl Fares finder was right and that's what you would have been charged. Back in February or March of this year (I forget exactly when) I made a Highbury & Islington to Queen's Park journey via Victoria and Bakerloo lines changing at Oxford Circus. I had already reached my zone 1&2 daily cap so was totally bemused when an extra 60p was deducted from my balance - i.e. my cap was now at the zones 1-4 level of £5.20 rather than £4.60, despite the fact I hadn't been in zone 3 - indeed, there was no valid route from H&I to QP through zone 3. Later on the penny dropped that the Oyster PAYG database had already been updated to take account of PAYG on the NLL, either it was being tested or perhaps there was something to the talk that PAYG might go live whilst the line was still under Silverlink control. Around that time I was travelling on the NLL a lot, so I did some experiments. I'd like to make absolutely clear that at all times when doing this I was travelling with a valid Travelcard season ticket that covered all the applicable zones. So I consulted the TfL Single Fares finder and worked out what the system defined as via-Z1 journeys and those that avoided Z1 - and to the best of my recollection they're the same today as they were then. I then tried touching in and out at some of the main stations where there were already gates activated for PAYG - i.e. stations shared with an LU line. I did only try this by making journeys that were defined as non-Z1 (i.e. what the TfL Fare finder said would cost £1), and I'm pretty sure the journeys I made were Stratford to H&I, H&I to Willesden Jn, and Willesden Jn to Kensington Olympia and separately Willesden Jn to West Brompton. All of these journeys were charged at £1. I did them on an unregistered Oyster card, so I haven't got any screenshots of my online journey history, but I did take a few mobile phone photos of LU ticket machines displaying the journey history which displayed what I'd done. Unfortunately that mobile phone ended up meeting a watery demise (not down the loo thankfully) so after doing all that I have no proof! I would have come here and documented it at the time - indeed that's why I actually conducted these experiments - but unfortunately life suddenly got a bit hectic around then and contributing to a newsgroup shifted down my list of priorities somewhat. So there we go. I suppose my 'findings' from earlier this year aren't solid proof about how other journeys might have been routed, but in my mind there a good enough basis for me to think that the TfL Fares finder is an accurate reflection of the current routing logic that's at work inside TfL's big Oyster database. One last thing - it would seem that in addition to the "Some journeys have been defined as requiring travel via Zone 1 and will be charged and capped accordingly, irrespective of the actual route taken" statement (taken from the TfL Fares booklet), I've discovered that "some journeys might also be defined as requiring travel via zone 3 and charged and capped accordingly" (a statement *not* taken from the TfL Fares booklet). In the particular instance of a Highbury & Islington to Queen's Park journey, this problem would be nullified if Hampstead Heath was moved to zone 2 and Willesden Jn became a zone 2/3 station (a change which might well be on its way). However there might be wider implications for other routes. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 19:45:30 -0000,
Paul Scott wrote: wrote in message ps.com... On Nov 12, 5:19 pm, Mizter T wrote: the passenger actually took. But I'm afraid to say I disagree with your idea anyway. What your proposal boils down to in essence is to use an Oyster as if it were a cashless card system, and so use the PAYG balance to buy a ticket. Instead I'd say that if you want a Day Travelcard you can just as well buy it with cash or a debit/credit card. The preferable situation would be for all lines in London to accept Oyster PAYG, and then all passengers could benefit from daily price capping (which is in a way akin to a Day Travelcard except you don't have to plan ahead before you start travelling that day). I agree that the preferable situation is for PAYG to just work everywhere but I was just imagining a temporary measure. Every out of zone station could have a machine whos only job is to put a one day travel card onto a PAYG oyster card. This will avoid the need to queue and surely must be faster than using cash or card in the automatic machines. That way, if you buy a day travelcard and don't happen to do enough journeys to use up the cost, you've wasted your money. PAYG capping is 50p less than the one day travelcard value, If you don't do enough jouneys to bring in the cap, you'll still have saved money over a travelcard. But I can use a ODTC from Watford Junction. I can't use PAYG unless I limit myself to the slow train to Euston. At this point in time I'm not asking for anything more than the ability to put the ticket I would buy anyway onto my PAYG oyster rather than having a separate paper ticket. I'd like that when people come to visit and we go into London, I could have some spare PAYG oyster cards that I could give them that could then quickly have a ODTC put onto them. Instead we have to leave early enough to queue to buy paper tickets (because you cannot rely on the automatic machines working) Tim. -- God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light. http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/ |
Oyster routing logic on the NLL [was: London Overground from11 Nov 2007]
Well, I found something weird yesterday. The journey from Hampstead
Heath to Whitechapel is shown by the Single Fare Finder as costing £1, so evidently is not regarded as a via Zone 1 journey. I don't know if that's because the expected route is via Stratford then Central and District Lines, or if it's anticipating the extended East London Line. Anyway, this is a convenient replacement for my most usual tube journey (Belsize Park to Aldgate or Aldgate East), it's half the price, and as an added benefit it allows me to avoid the nightmare of the Northern Line, so I thought I should give it a try. I decided out of curiosity to go via West Hampstead. I thought this would be an interesting experiment because I would have to touch out and touch in at West Hampstead, so the system would know I had taken the Jubilee Line from West Hampstead and therefore had travelled through zone 1. When I touched out at West Hampstead Overground the gate showed a £1 charge, which would be correct for terminating the journey there. I crossed the road to the Jubilee Line station, touched in again and travelled on to Whitechapel. At the Oyster gate there it again showed £1, which judging by the remaining balance was the same £1. It worked! On the way home I decided again to travel via West Hampstead. Touching out at West Hampstead Jubilee Line, the gate showed a charge of £2 - correct if terminating there. Now, I thought, this feels strange - by travelling on from West Hampstead to Hampstead Heath it's going to refund me £1. But it didn't. The gate at Hampstead Heath also showed a charge of £2 for the completed journey, which I confirmed today on the journey log. I thought maybe it would apply a refund overnight, but it didn't do that either. So, the system can make different charges depending on which direction you travel. It just doesn't make sense to me. And apart from the directional assymetry, £2 simply can't be a correct charge from a Zone 2 station to a Zone 3 - it should be either £1 or £2.50. I can't believe the anomaly is intentional, and I wonder if they're aware of it. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:13:56 +0000 (UTC), Tim Woodall
wrote: On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 19:45:30 -0000, Paul Scott wrote: wrote in message ps.com... On Nov 12, 5:19 pm, Mizter T wrote: the passenger actually took. But I'm afraid to say I disagree with your idea anyway. What your proposal boils down to in essence is to use an Oyster as if it were a cashless card system, and so use the PAYG balance to buy a ticket. Instead I'd say that if you want a Day Travelcard you can just as well buy it with cash or a debit/credit card. The preferable situation would be for all lines in London to accept Oyster PAYG, and then all passengers could benefit from daily price capping (which is in a way akin to a Day Travelcard except you don't have to plan ahead before you start travelling that day). I agree that the preferable situation is for PAYG to just work everywhere but I was just imagining a temporary measure. Every out of zone station could have a machine whos only job is to put a one day travel card onto a PAYG oyster card. This will avoid the need to queue and surely must be faster than using cash or card in the automatic machines. That way, if you buy a day travelcard and don't happen to do enough journeys to use up the cost, you've wasted your money. PAYG capping is 50p less than the one day travelcard value, If you don't do enough jouneys to bring in the cap, you'll still have saved money over a travelcard. But I can use a ODTC from Watford Junction. I can't use PAYG unless I limit myself to the slow train to Euston. You can use PAYG on a Southern train to Harrow, wait 7-ish minutes then jump on a following London Midland train to Euston. I suspect many people will decide that "a train is a train" or won't recognise the difference anyway, resulting in journeys being attempted all the way on the main line Euston trains. snip |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
Charles Ellson wrote:
You can use PAYG on a Southern train to Harrow, wait 7-ish minutes then jump on a following London Midland train to Euston. I suspect many people will decide that "a train is a train" or won't recognise the difference anyway, resulting in journeys being attempted all the way on the main line Euston trains. I don't tend to venture out to Watford Junction much, but just how are passengers supposed to tell at a glance which are and aren't the valid trains? Many TOCs seem to have numerous liveries in use due to stock not having been repainted or a change of mind mid franchise and so forth. And a lot of announcements don't give the TOC. So how will the passenger at Watford Junction who knows they can use PAYG "on trains" or "on overground" (meaning "national rail") know which train to Harrow & Wealdstone is and isn't valid? |
Oyster routing logic on the NLL [was: London Overground from 11 Nov 2007]
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:06:47 -0800, Mizter T wrote:
I can say with some authority that despite PAYG not yet being valid on the NLL at the time the Tfl Fares finder was right and that's what you would have been charged. Back in February or March of this year (I forget exactly when) I made a Highbury & Islington to Queen's Park journey via Victoria and Bakerloo lines changing at Oxford Circus. I had already reached my zone 1&2 daily cap so was totally bemused when an extra 60p was deducted from my balance - i.e. my cap was now at the zones 1-4 level of £5.20 rather than £4.60, despite the fact I hadn't been in zone 3 - indeed, there was no valid route from H&I to QP through zone 3. Later on the penny dropped that the Oyster PAYG database had already been updated to take account of PAYG on the NLL, either it was being tested or perhaps there was something to the talk that PAYG might go live whilst the line was still under Silverlink control. I maintain that it was defined as a Z23 journey (rather than a Z12 journey) so that holders of Z23 Travelcard seasons on Oyster making this journey using the NLL would not get charged an extension fare. |
Oyster routing logic on the NLL [was: London Overground from 11 Nov 2007]
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:57:00 GMT, ccpf wrote:
So, the system can make different charges depending on which direction you travel. It just doesn't make sense to me. And apart from the directional assymetry, £2 simply can't be a correct charge from a Zone 2 station to a Zone 3 - it should be either £1 or £2.50. I can't believe the anomaly is intentional, and I wonder if they're aware of it. Makes sense to me - it's a perfectly sensible way of keeping the fare-charging logic simple. It would be hugely more complicated, for very little gain, if each pair of stations had to have separate fares associated with it depending on whether you pass through any of (and possibly a combination of) the out-of-station interchanges on the network and/or touch any of the platform validators. IIRC it actually used to be the case that the system *would* refund you money at the final touch-out (someone posted here that they'd tried it), so the no-refund rule must have been added fairly recently. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:13:56 +0000 (UTC), Tim Woodall wrote:
But I can use a ODTC from Watford Junction. I can't use PAYG unless I limit myself to the slow train to Euston. At this point in time I'm not asking for anything more than the ability to put the ticket I would buy anyway onto my PAYG oyster rather than having a separate paper ticket. I'd like that when people come to visit and we go into London, I could have some spare PAYG oyster cards that I could give them that could then quickly have a ODTC put onto them. Instead we have to leave early enough to queue to buy paper tickets (because you cannot rely on the automatic machines working) What on earth would be the point? By the time you'd queued for the new machine, it might as well just issue you with a paper Travelcard. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On 11 Nov, 22:22, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sat, 10 Nov 2007, Mizter T wrote: Anyway, that's just me speculating on how it could work. It remains a bit of a shame tha****fordJunctionisn't going to become part of the Met line zonal system (i.e. become part of zone A), especially given the fact the Met'sWatfordstation is in the same town, albeit 15 (?) mins walk away fromWatfordJn. But quite predictable nonetheless. I wonder how this would interact with the Croxley Link.WatfordJunction and High Street becoming dual-zone 7M/8W? 8M/8W? tom -- **** bitches, you know how I swang. I gets my cinna-on at the Cinna-bon. -- K-Real The new 2008 map has gone up on the ticket machines in Harrow and Wealdstone. Carpenders park moves to zone 7, Bushey and Watford High Street to zone 8. But Watford Junction still stays out altogether with the 'Special Fares Apply' box. Looks like LM fighting to keep control over travelcard prices in one of their busiest stations. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
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London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Nov 14, 12:32 am, asdf wrote:
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:13:56 +0000 (UTC), Tim Woodall wrote: But I can use a ODTC from Watford Junction. I can't use PAYG unless I limit myself to the slow train to Euston. At this point in time I'm not asking for anything more than the ability to put the ticket I would buy anyway onto my PAYG oyster rather than having a separate paper ticket. I'd like that when people come to visit and we go into London, I could have some spare PAYG oyster cards that I could give them that could then quickly have a ODTC put onto them. Instead we have to leave early enough to queue to buy paper tickets (because you cannot rely on the automatic machines working) What on earth would be the point? By the time you'd queued for the new machine, it might as well just issue you with a paper Travelcard. Because the machines need cards or cash and people entering pin numbers and waiting for the ticket to be printed and trying to find that last pound coin of change as well as people wanting to select tickets for particular journeys. I envisage a machine that just says "touch here for a One Day Travelcard" and that is it. Tim. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Nov 14, 12:08 am, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll-
wrote: Charles Ellson wrote: You can use PAYG on a Southern train to Harrow, wait 7-ish minutes then jump on a following London Midland train to Euston. I suspect many people will decide that "a train is a train" or won't recognise the difference anyway, resulting in journeys being attempted all the way on the main line Euston trains. I don't tend to venture out to Watford Junction much, but just how are passengers supposed to tell at a glance which are and aren't the valid trains? Many TOCs seem to have numerous liveries in use due to stock not having been repainted or a change of mind mid franchise and so forth. And a lot of announcements don't give the TOC. So how will the passenger at Watford Junction who knows they can use PAYG "on trains" or "on overground" (meaning "national rail") know which train to Harrow & Wealdstone is and isn't valid? This morning I was on a train that only stops at Bushey. We came into platform 12 which doesn't seem to have oyster readers that I could see. So anybody trying to use oyster on that train will have an unresolved journey. Although, given that the PAYG fare is 5.50 at that time and an unresolved journey is (I think) 5.00, I suspect it might become a very popular train ;-) Tim. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On 14 Nov, 08:47, " wrote:
On Nov 14, 12:32 am, asdf wrote: On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:13:56 +0000 (UTC), Tim Woodall wrote: But I can use a ODTC from Watford Junction. I can't use PAYG unless I limit myself to the slow train to Euston. At this point in time I'm not asking for anything more than the ability to put the ticket I would buy anyway onto my PAYG oyster rather than having a separate paper ticket. I'd like that when people come to visit and we go into London, I could have some spare PAYG oyster cards that I could give them that could then quickly have a ODTC put onto them. Instead we have to leave early enough to queue to buy paper tickets (because you cannot rely on the automatic machines working) What on earth would be the point? By the time you'd queued for the new machine, it might as well just issue you with a paper Travelcard. Because the machines need cards or cash and people entering pin numbers and waiting for the ticket to be printed and trying to find that last pound coin of change as well as people wanting to select tickets for particular journeys. I envisage a machine that just says "touch here for a One Day Travelcard" and that is it. Tim. Genuinely, apart from anything else, this would just cause - or indeed add to - confusion over day ticketing. The day ticketing product on Oyster is daily price capping, full stop. Adding anything else, whilst it would be technically possible, would just cause confusion. Having a Day Travelcard loaded onto an Oyster card would completely counter any attempts to keep things as simple and straightforward as possible. Plus there would be no real, functional, benefit. Unless one wanted to propose a horrendously confusing system where Day Travelcard holders could travel out of their zones and be charged PAYG fares for the excess, but (obviously) only on routes where PAYG is accepted. That would be a total nightmare! The day ticketing situation would be made far more confusing if your 'innovation' was implemented. Thankfully nobody at TfL is planning anything of the sort. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
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London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes Which bus garage would it have been? Waterden Road - formerly East London Buses, but then closed for the Olympics redevelopment. But Stratford depot, which is still in use and only just over the road, was evacuated. http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl...&t=k&z=18&om=1 -- Paul Terry |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
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London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
In message
Tom Anderson wrote: On Tue, 13 Nov 2007, wrote: On 13 Nov, 12:28, Tom Anderson wrote: Great, so now, to work out how much i'm going to pay for a ticket, i have to know how far apart my start and end stations are. At present, i can trace a line along a tube map marked with the zones to work out my fare; how am i going to do it under your system? Are you going to put up geographically accurate maps in stations, and suggest people carry tape measures with them? I assume you've got a rough idea of whether one place is further away than another, just from glancing at a map. That should give you a rough estimate of how much you should expect to pay. Okay, so you are going to put geographical maps of the system in stations, then. Good luck to passengers trying to find a central London station on one! Back in the 70s they used to have them. Think I still have a paper copy somewhere. [snip] Maybe if you looked at one of these geographical maps of yours, you'd notice that Docklands is actually rather close to the City - and on the less-congested side of it. That proximity, i suspect, is a significant part of why it's worked. If you set up a new financial district in, say Shepherd's Bush (kick the BBC and the remaining industrial outfits out of the area round White City, say), i think you'd have a hard time getting anyone interested in putting skyscrapers in it. BICBW. Well the BBC hopes you are wrong, their current intention is to close down Television Centre and sell the site off for redevelopment. Incidentally their way of justifying the closure is reminiscent of the way BR tried to close the Settle and Carlisle. -- Graeme Wall This address is not read, substitute trains for rail. Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Nov 14, 10:53 am, Mizter T wrote:
On 14 Nov, 08:47, " wrote: On Nov 14, 12:32 am, asdf wrote: On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:13:56 +0000 (UTC), Tim Woodall wrote: But I can use a ODTC from Watford Junction. I can't use PAYG unless I limit myself to the slow train to Euston. At this point in time I'm not asking for anything more than the ability to put the ticket I would buy anyway onto my PAYG oyster rather than having a separate paper ticket. I'd like that when people come to visit and we go into London, I could have some spare PAYG oyster cards that I could give them that could then quickly have a ODTC put onto them. Instead we have to leave early enough to queue to buy paper tickets (because you cannot rely on the automatic machines working) What on earth would be the point? By the time you'd queued for the new machine, it might as well just issue you with a paper Travelcard. Because the machines need cards or cash and people entering pin numbers and waiting for the ticket to be printed and trying to find that last pound coin of change as well as people wanting to select tickets for particular journeys. I envisage a machine that just says "touch here for a One Day Travelcard" and that is it. Tim. Genuinely, apart from anything else, this would just cause - or indeed add to - confusion over day ticketing. The day ticketing product on Oyster is daily price capping, full stop. Adding anything else, whilst it would be technically possible, would just cause confusion. Having a Day Travelcard loaded onto an Oyster card would completely counter any attempts to keep things as simple and straightforward as possible. But didn't TfL get done by advertising standards for claiming PAYG was equivalent to travelcards, because it's clearly nothing of the sort while not accepted on National Rail? Refusing to put one-day travelcards on Oyster in general, not necessarily by the means suggested above, seems to be pure obstructiveness. If the argument works for period travelcards, it works for one-day travelcards. Plus there would be no real, functional, benefit. Unless one wanted to propose a horrendously confusing system where Day Travelcard holders could travel out of their zones and be charged PAYG fares for the excess, but (obviously) only on routes where PAYG is accepted. That would be a total nightmare! The day ticketing situation would be made far more confusing if your 'innovation' was implemented. Thankfully nobody at TfL is planning anything of the sort.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes Waterden Road bus garage I was thinking of its old LT name. It never had one - it was opened in 2004 and is, AIUI, just a derelict factory site obtained on a short lease prior to the Olympic redevelopment. I have a recollection that the first bendy-buses were stabled there for a while. Hmm ... there wasn't still one there when the fire started, was there? :) -- Paul Terry |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:00:10 +0000, Paul Terry
wrote: In message , Colin Rosenstiel writes Which bus garage would it have been? Waterden Road - formerly East London Buses, but then closed for the Olympics redevelopment. But Stratford depot, which is still in use and only just over the road, was evacuated. Waterden Road is not yet closed. The route 25 bendies still run from it. Staff and vehicles from SD transferred there for the duration of the incident with a bus being used as a temporary "cash room" for buses coming in from service. Apparently it will be closed - along with SD and First's H garage - before the end of the year. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
This morning I was on a train that only stops at Bushey. We came into platform 12 which doesn't seem to have oyster readers that I could see. So anybody trying to use oyster on that train will have an unresolved journey. Although, given that the PAYG fare is 5.50 at that time and an unresolved journey is (I think) 5.00, I suspect it might become a very popular train ;-) Bushey is fairly easy as Southern trains don't stop there, so PAYG won't be valid on any trains from the main line platforms. There is a validator on platform 17 at Euston, however. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
MIG wrote:
On Nov 14, 10:53 am, Mizter T wrote: On 14 Nov, 08:47, " wrote: On Nov 14, 12:32 am, asdf wrote: On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:13:56 +0000 (UTC), Tim Woodall wrote: But I can use a ODTC from Watford Junction. I can't use PAYG unless I limit myself to the slow train to Euston. At this point in time I'm not asking for anything more than the ability to put the ticket I would buy anyway onto my PAYG oyster rather than having a separate paper ticket. I'd like that when people come to visit and we go into London, I could have some spare PAYG oyster cards that I could give them that could then quickly have a ODTC put onto them. Instead we have to leave early enough to queue to buy paper tickets (because you cannot rely on the automatic machines working) What on earth would be the point? By the time you'd queued for the new machine, it might as well just issue you with a paper Travelcard. Because the machines need cards or cash and people entering pin numbers and waiting for the ticket to be printed and trying to find that last pound coin of change as well as people wanting to select tickets for particular journeys. I envisage a machine that just says "touch here for a One Day Travelcard" and that is it. Tim. Genuinely, apart from anything else, this would just cause - or indeed add to - confusion over day ticketing. The day ticketing product on Oyster is daily price capping, full stop. Adding anything else, whilst it would be technically possible, would just cause confusion. Having a Day Travelcard loaded onto an Oyster card would completely counter any attempts to keep things as simple and straightforward as possible. But didn't TfL get done by advertising standards for claiming PAYG was equivalent to travelcards, because it's clearly nothing of the sort while not accepted on National Rail? It's was a bit more of a complex judgement than that. Basically, the posters in question didn't ever explicitly say that Oyster PAYG was equivalent to a Day Travelcard, but they were found to be misleading in that someone could interpret them as such. The full ASA judgement can be read he http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudicati...ation_id=40497 Nonetheless what you said doesn;t challenge my fundamental point that it would be incredibly confusing for both daily price capping and a Day Travelcard to both be available on Oyster. Refusing to put one-day travelcards on Oyster in general, not necessarily by the means suggested above, seems to be pure obstructiveness. If the argument works for period travelcards, it works for one-day travelcards. But the day ticketing product on an Oyster card is daily price capping, whilst there is no weekly or monthly price capping product - and as has been discussed before on here that would be practically impossible to implement. Please tell me what on earth would be gained by being able to load a Day Travelcard onto an Oyster card? OK, so you could pass through ticket gates a bit easier - not a good enough reason. The only other thing I can think of is if you wanted to leave open the possibility for making out-of-zone journeys and use AYG to pay for them - i.e. someone buys a Z1&2 Day Travelcard on Oyster, and suddenly later in the day decides they want to go out to Heathrow, so they can and the excess is paid for via PAYG. But this gets more complicated - would the persons card then be subject to price capping as well, so they could end up having a Z2-6 cap on there as well as a Z1&2 Day Travelcard? Let's say they wanted to go to East Croydon - they would not be able to do that by using PAYG to pay for the extension, so they'd need to buy a paper ticket extension. It's all far too complicated and totally unnecessary. When buying a Day Travelcard at the beginning of their travels a passenger needs to consider what zones they'll be going through on that day. With Oyster PAYG they don't. TOCs are the ones who should realise that people like being spontaneous and hence they should pull their fingers out and start accepting Oyster PAYG - then all passengers, whether they travel by National Rail, Tube, DLR, tram or bus would all benefit from daily price capping. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
Matthew Dickinson wrote:
This morning I was on a train that only stops at Bushey. We came into platform 12 which doesn't seem to have oyster readers that I could see. So anybody trying to use oyster on that train will have an unresolved journey. Although, given that the PAYG fare is 5.50 at that time and an unresolved journey is (I think) 5.00, I suspect it might become a very popular train ;-) Bushey is fairly easy as Southern trains don't stop there, so PAYG won't be valid on any trains from the main line platforms. There is a validator on platform 17 at Euston, however. What's the situation at Bushey - are there gates? If so are all the platforms within the gateline? The Oyster reader on a column at Euston near to platforms 16-18 is there to cater for London Midland trains that use those platforms at rush hour (and maybe also late at night , I dunno). Oyster PAYG is however only valid as far as Harrow & Wealdstone on the fast London Midland trains (a situation inherited from Silverlink). |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Nov 15, 1:16 am, Mizter T wrote:
MIG wrote: On Nov 14, 10:53 am, Mizter T wrote: On 14 Nov, 08:47, " wrote: On Nov 14, 12:32 am, asdf wrote: On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:13:56 +0000 (UTC), Tim Woodall wrote: But I can use a ODTC from Watford Junction. I can't use PAYG unless I limit myself to the slow train to Euston. At this point in time I'm not asking for anything more than the ability to put the ticket I would buy anyway onto my PAYG oyster rather than having a separate paper ticket. I'd like that when people come to visit and we go into London, I could have some spare PAYG oyster cards that I could give them that could then quickly have a ODTC put onto them. Instead we have to leave early enough to queue to buy paper tickets (because you cannot rely on the automatic machines working) What on earth would be the point? By the time you'd queued for the new machine, it might as well just issue you with a paper Travelcard. Because the machines need cards or cash and people entering pin numbers and waiting for the ticket to be printed and trying to find that last pound coin of change as well as people wanting to select tickets for particular journeys. I envisage a machine that just says "touch here for a One Day Travelcard" and that is it. Tim. Genuinely, apart from anything else, this would just cause - or indeed add to - confusion over day ticketing. The day ticketing product on Oyster is daily price capping, full stop. Adding anything else, whilst it would be technically possible, would just cause confusion. Having a Day Travelcard loaded onto an Oyster card would completely counter any attempts to keep things as simple and straightforward as possible. But didn't TfL get done by advertising standards for claiming PAYG was equivalent to travelcards, because it's clearly nothing of the sort while not accepted on National Rail? It's was a bit more of a complex judgement than that. Basically, the posters in question didn't ever explicitly say that Oyster PAYG was equivalent to a Day Travelcard, but they were found to be misleading in that someone could interpret them as such. The full ASA judgement can be read hehttp://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudicati...djudication+De... Nonetheless what you said doesn;t challenge my fundamental point that it would be incredibly confusing for both daily price capping and a Day Travelcard to both be available on Oyster. Refusing to put one-day travelcards on Oyster in general, not necessarily by the means suggested above, seems to be pure obstructiveness. If the argument works for period travelcards, it works for one-day travelcards. But the day ticketing product on an Oyster card is daily price capping, whilst there is no weekly or monthly price capping product - and as has been discussed before on here that would be practically impossible to implement. Please tell me what on earth would be gained by being able to load a Day Travelcard onto an Oyster card? OK, so you could pass through ticket gates a bit easier - not a good enough reason. So you don't have to arrive at Watford Junction at least half an hour early for your train so you can buy a ticket. If you absolutely must catch a particular train (e.g. you're catching a mainline train from KX) then you need to allow 45 minutes. (Most of the time you get served within about 15 mins but every now and again there is somebody at the only window that is open planning their "lets visit every mainline station in the UK" journey. I'd be happy if I could buy the ODTC online on my oyster ahead of arriving at WJ. I wouldn't even mind if I couldn't use my PAYG balance to pay for it. And if I do want to go out of the travelcard zones I wouldn't mind getting charged the PAYG journey I've just made (i.e. from start to finish, not boundary Z6 to finish). After all, at the moment if I've got a paper travelcard and want to do that I'll have to remember to use PAYG to enter otherwise I'll get the 4GBP unresolved journey and no cap. With everything on oyster I can't forget to do that. Infact, what I'd really like is to be able to put ANY ticket onto my oyster. I'm going to Durham, I get my tickets sent through the post. Why not just have them put on my oyster instead. Of course, this isn't practical at the moment because neither the trains or the stations are set up to handle oyster but that excuse doesn't hold for WJ. The only other thing I can think of is if you wanted to leave open the possibility for making out-of-zone journeys and use AYG to pay for them - i.e. someone buys a Z1&2 Day Travelcard on Oyster, and suddenly later in the day decides they want to go out to Heathrow, so they can and the excess is paid for via PAYG. So someone decides to go around Z1&2 on their oyster and then suddenly decides they want to go out to WJ. They can't buy a boundary Z2 to WJ extension to use with a PAYG oyster. I don't understand why anybody would want to buy a Z1&2 day travelcard on PAYG given that you already have that option (infact slightly cheaper) by using price capping. The only thing I can think of that would change there is that you wouldn't get a 4GBP fare if you didn't touch in or out somewhere. But I'm really only talking about people starting at WJ. People starting at Watford High street through Hatch End will probably take the DC line to H&W so oyster already works for them. I suppose WHS people might decide to go North to WJ and then take the fast train which presumably would be allowed if PAYG oyster was accepted on the fast train but not with a WHS travelcard. Tim. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
But I'm afraid to say I disagree with your idea anyway. What your proposal boils down to in essence is to use an Oyster as if it were a cashless card system, and so use the PAYG balance to buy a ticket. Instead I'd say that if you want a Day Travelcard you can just as well buy it with cash or a debit/credit card. The preferable situation would be for all lines in London to accept Oyster PAYG, and then all passengers could benefit from daily price capping (which is in a way akin to a Day Travelcard except you don't have to plan ahead before you start travelling that day). Of course there would still be the tricky issue of which route the Oyster system presumed you had taken, regardless of what actual route you did in fact take. When Oyster was first launched, you could use the balance on the card to make payments for any product at LUL ticket machines. I seem to remember that this capability was withdrawn when Prepay was officially launched. I suspect this was due to the e-money and "TfL as bank" issues. |
Oyster routing logic on the NLL [was: London Overground from 11Nov 2007]
One thing that I've not seen mentioned on the group is that Thameslink
(sorry FCC!!) now accept Oyster PrePay at West Hampstead Thameslink, so extending a whole one station further north. This certainly makes sense given the interchange with the NLL (and Jubilee line). There are posters at West Hampstead proclaiming the fact and it is mentioned on their Website as well. |
Oyster routing logic on the NLL [was: London Overground from 11Nov 2007]
Andy wrote:
One thing that I've not seen mentioned on the group is that Thameslink (sorry FCC!!) now accept Oyster PrePay at West Hampstead Thameslink, so extending a whole one station further north. This certainly makes sense given the interchange with the NLL (and Jubilee line). There are posters at West Hampstead proclaiming the fact and it is mentioned on their Website as well. That's great news, I hadn't heard anything about that. Previously there was the odd situation where LU printed tickets were valid to West Hampstead Thameslink, but not Oyster PAYG. From West Hampstead, FCC Thameslink can work out as a good alternative route into town. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
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London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Nov 15, 7:13 pm, Mizter T wrote:
I think I'm right in saying that Watford was one of the areas considered for inclusion into the new Greater London area that was created in 1965, and this was fought by proud Watfordians who didn't want to get swallowed up into this behemoth. If it had been, then we wouldn't have any of these problems about Watford Junction fares - so perhaps you can blame those who made influenced and made this decision back in the early 60's! Watford wasn't in the Greater London proposed by the Herbert Commission, no (or in the Royal Commission of 1923). The bits that got excluded were mainly in the south-west - but also Cheshunt and Chigwell. -- Abi |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
time for some snipping Refusing to put one-day travelcards on Oyster in general, not necessarily by the means suggested above, seems to be pure obstructiveness. If the argument works for period travelcards, it works for one-day travelcards. But the day ticketing product on an Oyster card is daily price capping, whilst there is no weekly or monthly price capping product - and as has been discussed before on here that would be practically impossible to implement. Please tell me what on earth would be gained by being able to load a Day Travelcard onto an Oyster card? Daily price capping is not in any sense equivalent to a day travelcard, because it isn't valid for the same set of services. It's really simple. So, given that it's a totally different product for which a demand remains, why on Earth shouldn't it be stored on an Oyster card? |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
Abigail Brady wrote:
On Nov 15, 7:13 pm, Mizter T wrote: I think I'm right in saying that Watford was one of the areas considered for inclusion into the new Greater London area that was created in 1965, and this was fought by proud Watfordians who didn't want to get swallowed up into this behemoth. If it had been, then we wouldn't have any of these problems about Watford Junction fares - so perhaps you can blame those who made influenced and made this decision back in the early 60's! Watford wasn't in the Greater London proposed by the Herbert Commission, no (or in the Royal Commission of 1923). The bits that got excluded were mainly in the south-west - but also Cheshunt and Chigwell. -- Abi Thanks, and my apologies for spreading misinformation - I think I'll actually find a copy of that report so I know what I'm talking about next time! It would appear that Watford was within the area of review - at least the spectacularly authoritative source that is Wikipedia says so - but of course it doesn't follow that they then recommended it for inclusion in Greater London (the Wikipedia article is silent on that matter), and indeed from what you say they didn't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_C...eater_Lo ndon I'm pretty confidant in saying that Epsom was originally in, but stayed out in part at least as a result of local opposition. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Nov 15, 8:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:
It would appear that Watford was within the area of review - at least the spectacularly authoritative source that is Wikipedia says so - but of course it doesn't follow that they then recommended it for inclusion in Greater London (the Wikipedia article is silent on that matter), and indeed from what you say they didn't. This is correct. Person who wrote that article is trustworthy and working from actual sources. It does list the actual boroughs proposed, which don't include Watford, but doesn't outright say that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_C...Government_in_... I'm pretty confidant in saying that Epsom was originally in, but stayed out in part at least as a result of local opposition. Yes, indeed. -- Abi |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
MIG wrote:
time for some snipping Refusing to put one-day travelcards on Oyster in general, not necessarily by the means suggested above, seems to be pure obstructiveness. If the argument works for period travelcards, it works for one-day travelcards. But the day ticketing product on an Oyster card is daily price capping, whilst there is no weekly or monthly price capping product - and as has been discussed before on here that would be practically impossible to implement. Please tell me what on earth would be gained by being able to load a Day Travelcard onto an Oyster card? Daily price capping is not in any sense equivalent to a day travelcard, because it isn't valid for the same set of services. It's really simple. Oyster price capping is _the_ daily ticketing product on Oyster, and is one in which could be valid on all rail services in London if the TOCs decided to make it so. That is what TfL wants - indeed it is what passengers want, and as Oyster is TfL's system they decide what tickets go on it and what don't. If Day Travelcards were to be offered on Oyster it would destroy a whole part of the attraction of Oyster, which is that you only pay for what you use until you reach a cap, and would thus be going against their aim of getting all TOCs in London onto accepting Oyster PAYG. Plus it would be very confusing - it really would, and that is a crucial point. So, given that it's a totally different product for which a demand remains, why on Earth shouldn't it be stored on an Oyster card? But how would anyone benefit from this? The only difference would be the ticket was on a smartcard as opposed to a bit of paper. With Oyster PAYG, as long as you're not travelling on most National Rail routes then you don't need to decide at the beginning of the day where you are going - one of the great benefits of the system. With Day Travelcards, the passenger has to consider when they buy their ticket where they are going that day, and so they buy it for the correct zones. The idea that a Day Travelcard could then be combined with Oyster PAYG is pretty absurd as it would be so complicated, and would lead to lots more confusion as passengers got in a muddle over which routes they could automatically extend their journey on (such as LU, DLR, LO and a few NR routes) and which they couldn't (the majoroty of NR routes). Yes, the same could be said for season Travelcards - but holders of season Travelcards are far more likely to be acquainted with the situation than holders of Day Travelcards - even so, there are plenty of season Travelcard holders who get confused by the current arrangement too. The answer is simply to get Oyster PAYG accepted across National Rail in London, rather than some unnecessary and confusing foray into offering Day Travelcards on Oyster. Seriously, how would the vast majority of Day Travelcard users benefit from such a move, apart from having a ticket that goes "beep" when they use it? |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On 15 Nov, 21:16, Mizter T wrote:
MIG wrote: time for some snipping Refusing to put one-day travelcards on Oyster in general, not necessarily by the means suggested above, seems to be pure obstructiveness. If the argument works for period travelcards, it works for one-day travelcards. But the day ticketing product on an Oyster card is daily price capping, whilst there is no weekly or monthly price capping product - and as has been discussed before on here that would be practically impossible to implement. Please tell me what on earth would be gained by being able to load a Day Travelcard onto an Oyster card? Daily price capping is not in any sense equivalent to a day travelcard, because it isn't valid for the same set of services. It's really simple. Oyster price capping is _the_ daily ticketing product on Oyster, and is one in which could be valid on all rail services in London if the TOCs decided to make it so. That is what TfL wants - indeed it is what passengers want, and as Oyster is TfL's system they decide what tickets go on it and what don't. If Day Travelcards were to be offered on Oyster it would destroy a whole part of the attraction of Oyster, which is that you only pay for what you use until you reach a cap, and would thus be going against their aim of getting all TOCs in London onto accepting Oyster PAYG. Plus it would be very confusing - it really would, and that is a crucial point. So, given that it's a totally different product for which a demand remains, why on Earth shouldn't it be stored on an Oyster card? But how would anyone benefit from this? The only difference would be the ticket was on a smartcard as opposed to a bit of paper. With Oyster PAYG, as long as you're not travelling on most National Rail routes then you don't need to decide at the beginning of the day where you are going - one of the great benefits of the system. With Day Travelcards, the passenger has to consider when they buy their ticket where they are going that day, and so they buy it for the correct zones. The idea that a Day Travelcard could then be combined with Oyster PAYG is pretty absurd as it would be so complicated, and would lead to lots more confusion as passengers got in a muddle over which routes they could automatically extend their journey on (such as LU, DLR, LO and a few NR routes) and which they couldn't (the majoroty of NR routes). Yes, the same could be said for season Travelcards - but holders of season Travelcards are far more likely to be acquainted with the situation than holders of Day Travelcards - even so, there are plenty of season Travelcard holders who get confused by the current arrangement too. The answer is simply to get Oyster PAYG accepted across National Rail in London, rather than some unnecessary and confusing foray into offering Day Travelcards on Oyster. Seriously, how would the vast majority of Day Travelcard users benefit from such a move, apart from having a ticket that goes "beep" when they use it?- Hide quoted text - Personally, I have no desire for all my journeys to be tracked, but my question comes from logic. However, that logic has to be based on one of two assumptions. 1) The main purpose of Oyster is to implement PAYG with capping. 2) The main purpose of Oyster is to store credit and ticketing "products" and avoid paper. People are constantly lectured, including by TfL, about assumption 1) being incorrect and misusing the term "Oyster" as a synonym for PAYG. However, your argument seems to be based on assumption 1). I had always assumed 2) to be the case. If 2) is correct, then my question about "why pick on one popular product that has a very different use from PAYG and refuse to store it on Oyster" is perfectly reasonable. I think that your position is that, given that 1) is correct, storing non-PAYG products on Oyster would cause confusion. However, it's TfL's decision whether to recognise the shortcomings of NR TOCs or simply to sulk about it and say "NR TOCs ought to accept Oyster so we are going to pretend that they do". |
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