London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Nov 15, 7:13 pm, Mizter T wrote:


Sounds distinctly like a ticket selling problem at Watford Junction.
It really sounds as though London Midland need to pull their finder
out and provide better facilities here, like more staff and more
ticket machines.


To be fair to London Midland, I've never bought a ticket at WJ since
they took over and with both LU and LM now operating from WJ there may
be more staff available. I've typically had the worst problems on a
Sunday when the travel centre is closed and there is often just one
open window. At least now when I'm travelling with people who have a
mainline connection to make at KX provided we leave enough time to
catch the DC line we'll have an option (although, of course, the
decision will have to be made based on the queue length. I've had some
anxious times when I've been the next person in the queue and it's
taken the person infront of me 15 minutes to organize their tickets.)

The ticket machines are extremely unreliable as well and won't sell
tickets for travelling with a gold card holder. (One of the two
machines at Euston near the 8-11 platform barrier will do this, the
other won't so it's clearly possible "under the rules". IIRC the one
that will do this won't accept cash.

There's no chance of it happening either - TfL are very
keen to push Oyster PAYG (and hence daily price capping) on to the
railways, and your proposal would counteract that effort.


I'm resigned to the fact that you're probably correct. After all, if
it was going to happen it would already have happened. However, I'm a
bit resentful of the fact that I'm being used as a pawn in the
political battles between LU and the TOCs.

OTOH, at least for myself, I'm hopeful I'll be able to have my gold
card on oyster soon (obviously this wasn't possible prior to WJ
accepting oyster at all). 99% of the time I'm travelling with a
bicycle so I have to go through the manual barrier but occasionally I
don't have the bike with me and I'm always frustrated how difficult it
can be to get the ticket out of the wallet in order to put it through
the barrier - especially if you've arrived at the station with a train
in a couple of minutes and you've got gloves on.

I've wondered whether it would be possible[1] to have a ticket that
keeps the automatic barriers open for longer - the staff have a ticket
that opens the barrier and it doesn't close again, occasionally I'm
let through the barrier like that and generally it's slower going
through the manual gate because there are also all the people with
invalid tickets trying to get through but a ticket that would hold
open the barrier for 10 or 15 seconds after it would normally close
would probably be sufficient.
It's also frustrating that the manual gate at Euston is on the wrong
side so (although you can't enter the underground here at the moment)
you get the cyclists trying to get out of the station crossing paths
with the passengers going through the barriers trying to get to the
underground. I suppose it's to keep the manual gate by the ticket
office.

[1] Technically possible - I'm absolutely certain that nobody would be
prepared to issue tickets that actually did this.

Tim.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

Seriously, how would the vast majority of Day Travelcard users benefit
from such a move, apart from having a ticket that goes "beep" when
they use it?

Sorry, I didn't answer that. Well, one obvious situation which is
quite common is that it's very easy to be in the habit of touching
your Oyster card, even if you've got a paper travelcard on a
particular day (to cover NR) which would have covered your LU or bus
journey.

When you do that you may get charged PAYG for a journey that you were
already covered for with your travelcard. In fact, if you didn't
duplicate the mistake on the way out, you'd be charged £4. If the
Oyster carried the travelcard, no PAYG would be deducted.

What might be useful, and not too unmanageable, would be for the
machines to have a function "top up today's used credit to a one-day
travelcard" when one realises that one needs to use NR that day after
all. It wouldn't have to be combined in a capping sense.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...


I can see the problem for a Watfordite who might wish to travel out
from Watford Jn and return to Watford Met or indeed another Met line
station. As of January all the stations on the stopping line up to
Watford High Street will join the Met line extremities will in being
part of the zonal system (I'll post a new thread about this shortly) -

Is this new thread imminent - I'm waiting with interest!

Paul S

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

uk.railway removed because my local newsserver won't let me post to
groups I don't host.


On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 02:52:42 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
On Nov 15, 7:13 pm, Mizter T wrote:


Sounds distinctly like a ticket selling problem at Watford Junction.
It really sounds as though London Midland need to pull their finder
out and provide better facilities here, like more staff and more
ticket machines.


To be fair to London Midland,

And to be even more fair, I've just seen a notice at Watford Junction:

Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Euston to WJ from Sunday 18th
November on all trains. :-)


(It didn't actually say from WJ to Euston but I'm assuming that is also
the case)

Tim.


--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

Hi All,

And to be even more fair, I've just seen a notice at Watford Junction:

Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Euston to WJ from Sunday 18th
November on all trains. :-)

I can't work out if that is useful or not! Does WJ stand for Watford
Junction (the uncertain bit) or Willesden Junction (The bit we already know
about) ??

Best Wishes,
LEWIS

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:47:44 -0000,
Lew 1 wrote:

Hi All,

And to be even more fair, I've just seen a notice at Watford Junction:

Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Euston to WJ from Sunday 18th
November on all trains. :-)

I can't work out if that is useful or not! Does WJ stand for Watford
Junction (the uncertain bit) or Willesden Junction (The bit we already know
about) ??

Sorry, WJ is Watford Junction.

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

"Nick Pedley" wrote in message
.. .

I think the TfL Journey Planner needs an overhaul to suggest more sensible
routes and not base it entirely on departure times.

I suspect that if any journey takes more than 2 hours you get charged with
the maximum fare.

Definitely - this has been discussed often and confirmed. You actually get
charged twice the maximum cash fare if a journey exceeds the 2 hour limit,
because you end up with both an unresolved entry = £4.00, and an unresolved
exit = £4.00.

Paul S

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:24:31 -0000, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Definitely - this has been discussed often and confirmed. You actually get
charged twice the maximum cash fare if a journey exceeds the 2 hour limit,
because you end up with both an unresolved entry = £4.00, and an unresolved
exit = £4.00.

Which is a nonsense, as there are journeys that can take that long. 3
or 4 hours would be more sensible.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

In article ,
(Nick Pedley) wrote:

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:19:58 -0800, Mizter T
wrote:

Of course there would still be the tricky issue of which route the
Oyster system presumed you had taken, regardless of what actual route
you did in fact take.

Richmond-Stratford, anyone?

The system works on idea that the passenger takes the quickest and
most direct route, so for Oyster usage R-S should be done via
District Line and Central Line, changing at Mile End and taking 43
minutes (max 57) according to Planner times.

The TfL Journey Planner tells you to take SWT to Waterloo, W&C to
Bank and then Central Line in 57 minutes.
Doing it by the Overground, which is the simplest route, takes
1hr3min.

I think the TfL Journey Planner needs an overhaul to suggest more
sensible routes and not base it entirely on departure times.

I suspect that if any journey takes more than 2 hours you get
charged with the maximum fare. I went Richmond to North Woolwich
(and then back to Epping)when that stretch closed down, spent 20
minutes at NW taking pictures and got stuck with the max possible
fare because the Oyster system timed me out. It might have been an
invalid route at the time but I did touch in and out at the correct
places.
It also does this when the Tube breaks down for long periods, as
happened to me earlier this year, but thankfully that one got
capped at the Daily Travelcard rate because the breakdown was after
9.30am.

You don't mention the SWT to Waterloo and Jubilee combination, though the
TfL journey planner does. It's also under 57 minutes there for some
journeys with a generous 12 minutes allowed for the interchange at
Waterloo. The running times total 42 minutes. 19 minutes to Waterloo is
hard to beat by Underground.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

In article
,
(MIG) wrote:

Personally, I have no desire for all my journeys to be tracked,

Don't register your Oyster card then.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Nov 18, 2:04 pm, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article
,

(MIG) wrote:
Personally, I have no desire for all my journeys to be tracked,

Don't register your Oyster card then.


Obviously, but some of the advantages mentioned, eg being able to get
a one-day travelcard online in advance, presumably depend on it being
registered (as does getting a refund when they screw up).

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 06:46:23 -0800 (PST),
MIG wrote:
On Nov 18, 2:04 pm, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article
,

(MIG) wrote:
Personally, I have no desire for all my journeys to be tracked,

Don't register your Oyster card then.


Obviously, but some of the advantages mentioned, eg being able to get
a one-day travelcard online in advance, presumably depend on it being
registered (as does getting a refund when they screw up).

The ODTC in advance was a wish of mine and not available (I think)

But you can have multiple cards. If you have a registered one with auto
top-up set up but then generally use an unregistered card and always top
it up with cash then (other than possibly paying more than the cap)
you'll always be able to just jump on the tube. I once got caught out at
custom house where I had to buy a cash single because I didn't have
enough money on my card - I knew at Euston before I set off that I'd
need to put more money on it but I'd assumed there would be facilities
to top up at Custom House and so didn't want to queue at Euston.
(I was sorely tempted to travel anyway as I'd have been charged the 1.50
- or whatever it was - anyway in those days and then I could have topped
up at Euston)

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On Nov 18, 4:48 pm, Tim Woodall wrote:
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 06:46:23 -0800 (PST),
MIG wrote:

On Nov 18, 2:04 pm, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article
,

(MIG) wrote:
Personally, I have no desire for all my journeys to be tracked,

Don't register your Oyster card then.

Obviously, but some of the advantages mentioned, eg being able to get
a one-day travelcard online in advance, presumably depend on it being
registered (as does getting a refund when they screw up).

The ODTC in advance was a wish of mine and not available (I think)


Because you can't put it on Oyster at all, never mind in advance. If
it could be stored on Oyster, then presumably it could be done in
advance. It's all hypothetical.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

Neil Williams wrote in article
...
On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:24:31 -0000, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Definitely - this has been discussed often and confirmed. You
actually get
charged twice the maximum cash fare if a journey exceeds the 2 hour
limit,
because you end up with both an unresolved entry = £4.00, and an
unresolved
exit = £4.00.

Which is a nonsense, as there are journeys that can take that long.
3
or 4 hours would be more sensible.

Have you examples ?

It might be better to start with the out-of-station interchange
problem.

That is, you leave the system at an OoS intending to end your journey,
when you start another journey later but still within 2 hours of your
initial entry the Oyster system considers it a resumed journey but you
very soon hit the 2 hour timeout and are charged excessively
accordingly.

I suggest that in these circumstances, since you touched in properly,
the system should recalculate for two journeys.

And for a long journey, if you touched in/ validated anywhere during
the 2 hours then either the 2 hours should be extended from the last
touch in or the same recalculation for 2 journeys should occur.

--
Mike D

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On 18 Nov 2007 18:44:09 GMT, "Michael R N Dolbear"
wrote:

Have you examples ?

The all-too-frequent delays, for one, especially if you are travelling
from the extremes of one line to the extremes of another.

It won't trip most people up, but it shouldn't trip *anyone* up.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote in message
news:01c829fd$8ba88140$LocalHost@default...

Neil Williams wrote in article
...
On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:24:31 -0000, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Definitely - this has been discussed often and confirmed. You
actually get
charged twice the maximum cash fare if a journey exceeds the 2 hour
limit,
because you end up with both an unresolved entry = £4.00, and an
unresolved
exit = £4.00.

Which is a nonsense, as there are journeys that can take that long.
3
or 4 hours would be more sensible.

Have you examples ?


There were many examples last time this was discussed, basically relying on
journeys such as Chesham - 'either eastern extremity'. Someone touching in
at Chesham just after a train has left for instance, [and why shouldn't
they], would run down a fair chunk of the 2 hours before they even got
moving...

The TfL planner shows an average for the next 4 journeys to Epping for
example of about 2 hours 20 min, with departures half hourly.

Paul

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

On 18 Nov 2007 18:44:09 GMT, "Michael R N Dolbear"
wrote:


Neil Williams wrote in article
...
On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:24:31 -0000, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Definitely - this has been discussed often and confirmed. You
actually get
charged twice the maximum cash fare if a journey exceeds the 2 hour
limit,
because you end up with both an unresolved entry = £4.00, and an
unresolved
exit = £4.00.

Which is a nonsense, as there are journeys that can take that long.
3
or 4 hours would be more sensible.

Have you examples ?

It might be better to start with the out-of-station interchange
problem.

That is, you leave the system at an OoS intending to end your journey,
when you start another journey later but still within 2 hours of your
initial entry the Oyster system considers it a resumed journey but you
very soon hit the 2 hour timeout and are charged excessively
accordingly.

There are time limits for interchange between "sides" of an out of
station interchange. These are separate from anything to do with the 2
hour maximum journey time. If you exceed the OSI time then your second
journey will count as a new journey and the 2 hour limit restarts. There
may be people who exit at OSIs and who go about their business and then
enter at the other "side" of the OSI and unexpectedly do so within the
time limit and then effectively restart their first trip. I would
suggest the instances of the latter are small.

And before you ask no I don't know what the current OSI time limit is
for Oyster PAYG.

I suggest that in these circumstances, since you touched in properly,
the system should recalculate for two journeys.

And for a long journey, if you touched in/ validated anywhere during
the 2 hours then either the 2 hours should be extended from the last
touch in or the same recalculation for 2 journeys should occur.

I think we need to be careful here. What is not yet clear is quite what
universal PAYG acceptance on NR routes as well as LU, DLR and Overground
will look like.

My own view based on no inside knowledge is that there will be three
rates for PAYG. These will be the TfL scale as people currently
understand it and that will apply to LU, DLR and Overground. There will
then be a NR only PAYG rate which may or may not be the same prices as
the current NR zonal fares within Greater London and finally there will
be a PAYG version of the tube / train tariff that will charge for people
using NR to an interchange point with DLR, LU and Overground. The key
question is whether there will be any discount for PAYG holders relative
to the cash prices for NR zonal and tube / train tickets. This is all my
own musing and hence completely speculative but I can't see that the
TOCs could possibly contemplate charging the TfL PAYG values without a
commitment from TfL / DfT to pay increased subsidies. If there wasn't
to be a "shadow" PAYG rate I don't see why everyone went to so much
trouble creating zonal fares and charging at the last fares revision.

What rules will apply to journey times I don't know but I would venture
to suggest that a 2 maximum would not and could not apply in the case of
a tube / train journey or possibly some trips by Thameslink within the
zonal area. I also think TfL will need to fine tune the current 2 hour
time limit given that the scope of journeys has expanded with Overground
and the limited frequencies on some lines could cause people to easily
exceed 2 hours.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
 

In article
,
(MIG) wrote:

On Nov 18, 2:04 pm, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article

,

(MIG) wrote:
Personally, I have no desire for all my journeys to be tracked,

Don't register your Oyster card then.


Obviously, but some of the advantages mentioned, eg being able to get
a one-day travelcard online in advance, presumably depend on it being
registered (as does getting a refund when they screw up).

I've had a refund on my unregistered Oyster card. I forget the details
now but they were discussed here I think.

--
Colin Rosenstiel