"W14_Fishbourne" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Nov 10, 3:48 pm, asdf wrote:


Are you saying that PAYG is not valid on Southern between these
stations? Where is the National Rail information that says this?


See foot of page at:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...oysterservices

Oyster PAYG is not valid from Watford Junction, full stop, according
to this. Where does it say different?

The question was about Harrow & Wealdstone to Wembley Central. That page
asserts that Oyster is accepted on Silverlink between Harrow & Wealdstone
and Euston (presumably including Silverlink County services) except at
Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead. Admittedly the page is silent about
Southern trains between H&W and Wembley Central, but the average passenger
isn't too clued up about which TOC operates which train, and a passenger who
had touched in at H&W, intending to travel to Wembley Central, and who then
found that there was a disruption on the DC line, but a Southern train which
would call at Wembley Central was just pulling in would expect to be allowed
to travel on it and touch out at Wembley.

Peter

On Nov 10, 5:01 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"W14_Fishbourne" wrote in message

oups.com... On Nov 10, 3:48 pm, asdf wrote:

Are you saying that PAYG is not valid on Southern between these
stations? Where is the National Rail information that says this?

See foot of page at:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...oysterservices

Oyster PAYG is not valid from Watford Junction, full stop, according
to this. Where does it say different?

The question was about Harrow & Wealdstone to Wembley Central. That page
asserts that Oyster is accepted on Silverlink between Harrow & Wealdstone
and Euston (presumably including Silverlink County services) except at
Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead. Admittedly the page is silent about
Southern trains between H&W and Wembley Central, but the average passenger
isn't too clued up about which TOC operates which train, and a passenger who
had touched in at H&W, intending to travel to Wembley Central, and who then
found that there was a disruption on the DC line, but a Southern train which
would call at Wembley Central was just pulling in would expect to be allowed
to travel on it and touch out at Wembley.

Peter

If you buy an Underground ticket to Zone 1 at Ealing Broadway it
doesn't mean you can hop on an FGW service if your tube train's
cancelled. Why shouldn't the same apply here?

Besides, most train announcements include the name of the operator, so
all they have to do is listen to them.

On 10 Nov, 17:12, W14_Fishbourne wrote:
On Nov 10, 5:01 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:



"W14_Fishbourne" wrote in:

On Nov 10, 3:48 pm, asdf wrote:

Are you saying that PAYG is not valid on Southern between these
stations? Where is the National Rail information that says this?

See foot of page at:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...oysterservices

Oyster PAYG is not valid from Watford Junction, full stop, according
to this. Where does it say different?

The question was about Harrow & Wealdstone to Wembley Central. That page
asserts that Oyster is accepted on Silverlink between Harrow & Wealdstone
and Euston (presumably including Silverlink County services) except at
Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead. Admittedly the page is silent about
Southern trains between H&W and Wembley Central, but the average passenger
isn't too clued up about which TOC operates which train, and a passenger who
had touched in at H&W, intending to travel to Wembley Central, and who then
found that there was a disruption on the DC line, but a Southern train which
would call at Wembley Central was just pulling in would expect to be allowed
to travel on it and touch out at Wembley.

Peter


I've travelled from these platforms at Wembley Central, they are not
contained within the gateline (which only encompasses the DC line
platforms) and I can't recall there being an Oyster card reader there
for this purpose. It's a very good point though, one that I had failed
to consider in an earlier thread despite considering the late night
Silverlink County (to be London Midland) trains from/to Euston that
call at these platforms.

I dare suggest that most passengers wouldn't even consider taking the
Southern train between H&W and Wembley Central given the regular DC
line service (including the Bakerloos) but of course that's not an
answer to this issue.


If you buy an Underground ticket to Zone 1 at Ealing Broadway it
doesn't mean you can hop on an FGW service if your tube train's
cancelled. Why shouldn't the same apply here?

But wouldn't it be great if you could do just that. That's the kind of
thing passengers want. And you can do just that with an LU ticket from
DC line stations between H&W and Queens Park into Euston, as well as
other routes into Liverpool Street and Fenchurch Street (and yes I
realise the latter two cases are because LU lines shadow these routes
so they have interavailable ticketing).

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 15:51:46 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:04:51 -0800, wrote:

(Actually, my guess is that oyster won't be ready at these stations at
the weekend so the information hasn't been published to stop people
thinking they will be able to use it)

I have to agree - I'll be pleasantly surprised if PAYG is valid beyond
Hatch End tomorrow.

I am told via another group that the following applies.

PAYG - Watford - Euston on Overground services
PAYG - Harrow & Wealdstone - Euston on London Midland (no change from
Silverlink validity)
PAYG - Watford Junction - Clapham Junction on Southern

PAYG *not* valid on London Midland from Watford Junction - Harrow and
Wealdstone. I am waiting for a response to a question as to whether the
above non availability also means no availability of PAYG between
Watford and Euston on London Midland services.

Stations from Hatch End - Watford Junction will be priced *for PAYG
only* on the Zones 6A-D principle as for the out county stretches of the
Met. The out county zones do not apply to Travelcards which are still
priced and issued as a Z1-6 plus rail to Watford Junction. I don't know
which stations on the DC line fall into which out county zones. Hatch
End remains in Zone 6.

Please don't shoot the messenger given the inconsistencies in the above
position. More changes due for the Jan Fares Revision but I don't know
what they are.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 10 Nov, 17:57, Mizter T wrote:
On 10 Nov, 17:12, W14_Fishbourne wrote:



On Nov 10, 5:01 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"W14_Fishbourne" wrote in:

On Nov 10, 3:48 pm, asdf wrote:

Are you saying that PAYG is not valid on Southern between these
stations? Where is the National Rail information that says this?

See foot of page at:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...oysterservices

Oyster PAYG is not valid from Watford Junction, full stop, according
to this. Where does it say different?

The question was about Harrow & Wealdstone to Wembley Central. That page
asserts that Oyster is accepted on Silverlink between Harrow & Wealdstone
and Euston (presumably including Silverlink County services) except at
Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead. Admittedly the page is silent about
Southern trains between H&W and Wembley Central, but the average passenger
isn't too clued up about which TOC operates which train, and a passenger who
had touched in at H&W, intending to travel to Wembley Central, and who then
found that there was a disruption on the DC line, but a Southern train which
would call at Wembley Central was just pulling in would expect to be allowed
to travel on it and touch out at Wembley.

Peter

I've travelled from these platforms at Wembley Central, they are not
contained within the gateline (which only encompasses the DC line
platforms) and I can't recall there being an Oyster card reader there
for this purpose. It's a very good point though, one that I had failed
to consider in an earlier thread despite considering the late night
Silverlink County (to be London Midland) trains from/to Euston that
call at these platforms.

There are no Oyster readers on Platforms 3-6, and in the late night
periods when Silverlink County/London Midland serve the station, the
readers on the DC platforms are inside the locked part of the station,
so in practice PAYG is not valid.

Another interesting question is if PAYG will be valid on Virgin
between Euston & Watford Junction when special services are running.
(For example, Watford Junction was being advertised as a normal stop
for Virgin trains from Euston yesterday.)

On 10 Nov, 19:06, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 15:51:46 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:04:51 -0800, wrote:

(Actually, my guess is that oyster won't be ready at these stations at
the weekend so the information hasn't been published to stop people
thinking they will be able to use it)

I have to agree - I'll be pleasantly surprised if PAYG is valid beyond
Hatch End tomorrow.

I am told via another group that the following applies.

PAYG - Watford - Euston on Overground services
PAYG - Harrow & Wealdstone - Euston on London Midland (no change from
Silverlink validity)
PAYG - Watford Junction - Clapham Junction on Southern

PAYG *not* valid on London Midland from Watford Junction - Harrow and
Wealdstone. I am waiting for a response to a question as to whether the
above non availability also means no availability of PAYG between
Watford and Euston on London Midland services.

Though that would logically follow. So basically no agreement with
London Midland (at least not yet) for PAYG on their services from
Watford Junction to points south, whilst the availability of PAYG from
H&W to Euston is inherited from Silverlink.

The alleged availability of PAYG on Southern from Watford Jn down to
Clapham Jn comes at some surprise - I can see PAYG being valid from
H&W down to Clapham Jn, but not from Watford Jn. I think it best to
await confirmation (or otherwise) of that!


Stations from Hatch End - Watford Junction will be priced *for PAYG
only* on the Zones 6A-D principle as for the out county stretches of the
Met. The out county zones do not apply to Travelcards which are still
priced and issued as a Z1-6 plus rail to Watford Junction. I don't know
which stations on the DC line fall into which out county zones. Hatch
End remains in Zone 6.

Interesting stuff. One wonders if the term zones A-D will even appear
on customer facing literature - one hopes not as that would lead to
confusion (with people thinking a zones A-D Travelcard would be valid
when it won't be).


Please don't shoot the messenger given the inconsistencies in the above
position. More changes due for the Jan Fares Revision but I don't know
what they are.
--
Paul C

All interesting developments. Presumably the TfL website's London
Overground section will go live tomorrow and answer some of these
questions.

On 10 Nov, 19:28, Matthew wrote:
On 10 Nov, 17:57, Mizter T wrote:

On 10 Nov, 17:12, W14_Fishbourne wrote:

On Nov 10, 5:01 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"W14_Fishbourne" wrote in:

On Nov 10, 3:48 pm, asdf wrote:

Are you saying that PAYG is not valid on Southern between these
stations? Where is the National Rail information that says this?

See foot of page at:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...oysterservices

Oyster PAYG is not valid from Watford Junction, full stop, according
to this. Where does it say different?

The question was about Harrow & Wealdstone to Wembley Central. That page
asserts that Oyster is accepted on Silverlink between Harrow & Wealdstone
and Euston (presumably including Silverlink County services) except at
Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead. Admittedly the page is silent about
Southern trains between H&W and Wembley Central, but the average passenger
isn't too clued up about which TOC operates which train, and a passenger who
had touched in at H&W, intending to travel to Wembley Central, and who then
found that there was a disruption on the DC line, but a Southern train which
would call at Wembley Central was just pulling in would expect to be allowed
to travel on it and touch out at Wembley.

Peter

I've travelled from these platforms at Wembley Central, they are not
contained within the gateline (which only encompasses the DC line
platforms) and I can't recall there being an Oyster card reader there
for this purpose. It's a very good point though, one that I had failed
to consider in an earlier thread despite considering the late night
Silverlink County (to be London Midland) trains from/to Euston that
call at these platforms.

There are no Oyster readers on Platforms 3-6, and in the late night
periods when Silverlink County/London Midland serve the station, the
readers on the DC platforms are inside the locked part of the station,
so in practice PAYG is not valid.

Thanks for confirmation of that, I though they weren't any readers on
those platforms. I'd suggest that if PAYG becomes valid on Southern's
West London Line service (as is suggested elsewhere on this thread by
Paul Corfield) then this omission needs to be dealt with.


Another interesting question is if PAYG will be valid on Virgin
between Euston & Watford Junction when special services are running.
(For example, Watford Junction was being advertised as a normal stop
for Virgin trains from Euston yesterday.)

Interesting indeed. Perhaps, if PAYG will be valid on London
Overground only from Watford Jn (as Paul C's post suggests) then the
easy answer, if London Overground was not running, would be no.

There is a sole Oyster reader on a post near platforms 16/17/18 at
Euston to cater for those rush hour Silverlink County/ London Midland
trains that use those platforms (as PAYG is valid on these fast trains
as far as H&W only - and Paul C's post suggests this will not change).

On Nov 10, 5:57 pm, Mizter T wrote:


But wouldn't it be great if you could do just that. That's the kind of
thing passengers want.


Sure. I'd also love to go into Sainsbury's and buy some best rump
steak for the same price as brisket!

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:29:50 -0800, Mizter T wrote:

On 10 Nov, 19:06, Paul Corfield wrote:

PAYG *not* valid on London Midland from Watford Junction - Harrow and
Wealdstone. I am waiting for a response to a question as to whether the
above non availability also means no availability of PAYG between
Watford and Euston on London Midland services.

Though that would logically follow. So basically no agreement with
London Midland (at least not yet) for PAYG on their services from
Watford Junction to points south, whilst the availability of PAYG from
H&W to Euston is inherited from Silverlink.

The alleged availability of PAYG on Southern from Watford Jn down to
Clapham Jn comes at some surprise - I can see PAYG being valid from
H&W down to Clapham Jn, but not from Watford Jn. I think it best to
await confirmation (or otherwise) of that!

The person who provided the info is very close to the Oyster and fares
issues. I trust his information to be completely accurate.

Stations from Hatch End - Watford Junction will be priced *for PAYG
only* on the Zones 6A-D principle as for the out county stretches of the
Met. The out county zones do not apply to Travelcards which are still
priced and issued as a Z1-6 plus rail to Watford Junction. I don't know
which stations on the DC line fall into which out county zones. Hatch
End remains in Zone 6.

Interesting stuff. One wonders if the term zones A-D will even appear
on customer facing literature - one hopes not as that would lead to
confusion (with people thinking a zones A-D Travelcard would be valid
when it won't be).

Having a look at the advance info I have on LU fares (one day tickets)
for 2008 there are references to Zones 1-9 as well as 1-8W. There is no
explanation provided but 1-8W rates are highest so perhaps these
reference One Day tickets valid to Watford Junction. Interestingly there
is no LU fare to Z1-8W but there is for Z1-9. If "W" does mean Watford
then the single fare treatment makes sense as LU services won't reach
Watford Junction.

Quite how all of this is going to be explained to the public is going to
be an interesting exercise.

More interesting still is that I have yet to see anything about the
rates for Rail Zonal tickets. Tube-Train tickets or Travelcard season
rates. Something tells me they are still being negotiated as well as
whether there are any different PAYG rates for those lines which go PAYG
in Jan 2008 (One, FCC, C2C).

All interesting developments. Presumably the TfL website's London
Overground section will go live tomorrow and answer some of these
questions.

I had expected something to go live well before now. I had expected
something better than the current mess we are in with Silverlink
redirecting to London Midland but nothing for the Metro networks. Worse
still the Gunnersbury - Richmond section of the NLL / District Line is
out of service due to a "signalling" problem. It must be a very serious
problem to cause day long disruption without an apparent fix being
possible. That junction has been a mess since it was renewed by Network
Rail earlier this year - goodness knows what they've done to it to make
it worse now than it was before they did the work. If NR don't sort
this out then it's a very inauspicious start for Overground tomorrow on
one of their main routes.

--
Paul C

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

All interesting developments. Presumably the TfL website's London
Overground section will go live tomorrow and answer some of these
questions.

One simple issue I'm thinking of - London Overground appears, from the NR
perspective (they show its details on their site, and in terms of
timetabling and published fares), to be a part of National Rail. Whereas TfL
have previously used 'National Rail' as shorthand for 'not tube'. So are TfL
going to lump NR & LO together in their instructions, or not...

Paul S