London Banter - London Overground from 11 Nov 2007

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London Overground from 11 Nov 2007

"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...

"Ken" wrote

But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the
"Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change.

Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford
Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County)
between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere?
Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in
view
of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction.

Peter

Peter

I posted a message about Wembley Central and to gain access from the Metro
Bakerloo you have to exit through the barriers into the public area but then
access back to the platforms used by Southern there are no barriers or
oyster reader so if you interchange from a Bakerloo train to a Southern
train to Watford I think that there will be a real mess to sort out at
Watford.

Kevin

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007

"Mizter T" wrote in message
oups.com...
On 10 Nov, 19:28, Matthew wrote:
On 10 Nov, 17:57, Mizter T wrote:

On 10 Nov, 17:12, W14_Fishbourne wrote:

On Nov 10, 5:01 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"W14_Fishbourne" wrote in:

On Nov 10, 3:48 pm, asdf wrote:

Are you saying that PAYG is not valid on Southern between these
stations? Where is the National Rail information that says
this?

See foot of page at:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...oysterservices

Oyster PAYG is not valid from Watford Junction, full stop,
according
to this. Where does it say different?

The question was about Harrow & Wealdstone to Wembley Central. That
page
asserts that Oyster is accepted on Silverlink between Harrow &
Wealdstone
and Euston (presumably including Silverlink County services) except
at
Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead. Admittedly the page is
silent about
Southern trains between H&W and Wembley Central, but the average
passenger
isn't too clued up about which TOC operates which train, and a
passenger who
had touched in at H&W, intending to travel to Wembley Central, and
who then
found that there was a disruption on the DC line, but a Southern
train which
would call at Wembley Central was just pulling in would expect to
be allowed
to travel on it and touch out at Wembley.

Peter

I've travelled from these platforms at Wembley Central, they are not
contained within the gateline (which only encompasses the DC line
platforms) and I can't recall there being an Oyster card reader there
for this purpose. It's a very good point though, one that I had failed
to consider in an earlier thread despite considering the late night
Silverlink County (to be London Midland) trains from/to Euston that
call at these platforms.

There are no Oyster readers on Platforms 3-6, and in the late night
periods when Silverlink County/London Midland serve the station, the
readers on the DC platforms are inside the locked part of the station,
so in practice PAYG is not valid.

Thanks for confirmation of that, I though they weren't any readers on
those platforms. I'd suggest that if PAYG becomes valid on Southern's
West London Line service (as is suggested elsewhere on this thread by
Paul Corfield) then this omission needs to be dealt with.

Another interesting question is if PAYG will be valid on Virgin
between Euston & Watford Junction when special services are running.
(For example, Watford Junction was being advertised as a normal stop
for Virgin trains from Euston yesterday.)

Interesting indeed. Perhaps, if PAYG will be valid on London
Overground only from Watford Jn (as Paul C's post suggests) then the
easy answer, if London Overground was not running, would be no.

There is a sole Oyster reader on a post near platforms 16/17/18 at
Euston to cater for those rush hour Silverlink County/ London Midland
trains that use those platforms (as PAYG is valid on these fast trains
as far as H&W only - and Paul C's post suggests this will not change).

I replied to a post further up then found this one. I was at Wembley Central
yesterday and found the station layout very bizarre. I didn't see ant oyster
readers and they routed the Watford train into the northbound platform,
dickheads.

Kevin

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007

On 10 Nov, 21:00, "Zen83237" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message

oups.com...

On 10 Nov, 19:28, Matthew wrote:
On 10 Nov, 17:57, Mizter T wrote:

(snip)

I've travelled from these platforms at Wembley Central, they are not
contained within the gateline (which only encompasses the DC line
platforms) and I can't recall there being an Oyster card reader there
for this purpose. It's a very good point though, one that I had failed
to consider in an earlier thread despite considering the late night
Silverlink County (to be London Midland) trains from/to Euston that
call at these platforms.

There are no Oyster readers on Platforms 3-6, and in the late night
periods when Silverlink County/London Midland serve the station, the
readers on the DC platforms are inside the locked part of the station,
so in practice PAYG is not valid.

Thanks for confirmation of that, I though they weren't any readers on
those platforms. I'd suggest that if PAYG becomes valid on Southern's
West London Line service (as is suggested elsewhere on this thread by
Paul Corfield) then this omission needs to be dealt with.

(snip)

I replied to a post further up then found this one. I was at Wembley Central
yesterday and found the station layout very bizarre. I didn't see ant oyster
readers and they routed the Watford train into the northbound platform,
dickheads.

Kevin

I don't think Wembley Central was ever really designed to be used as
it is now. The DC line platforms have always had a very regular
service (both Watford- Euston and Bakerloo) and hence at some point in
the fairly recent past were gated. I'm not sure whether the other
platforms were ever in regular use before the current Southern service
(which started back in Connex South Central days and originally
extended up to Rugby). I'm also unsure of how many of these services
called at Wembley Central at the beginning - this service certainly
calls there more often nowadays than it did.

Lastly unless there were radical changes then platforms 3-6 could not
easily be brought within the gateline at Wembley Central - the
passageway the platforms are accessed from (through doors that are
otherwise locked out of use) is a public passageway that provides
access to offices and shops that (I think) would otherwise not have
access. I guess one way of facilitating this would be to divide the
passageway up, but apart from any other issues given the pretty
infrequent service these extra platforms receive I suspect it just
wouldn't be worth it.

A trip down onto those platforms is certainly a somewhat bizarre
experience, I must say - it's a bit of a forgotten dingy hole, made
stranger when a fast Pendolino speeds through on the adjacent fast
lines and the whole underground space suddenly experiences a sudden
vortex of rushing wind. The kind of out of the ordinary unpolished
transport experience that's quite entertaining, in my books at least!

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007

"Mizter T" wrote

I don't think Wembley Central was ever really designed to be used as
it is now. The DC line platforms have always had a very regular
service (both Watford- Euston and Bakerloo) and hence at some point in
the fairly recent past were gated. I'm not sure whether the other
platforms were ever in regular use before the current Southern service
(which started back in Connex South Central days and originally
extended up to Rugby). I'm also unsure of how many of these services
called at Wembley Central at the beginning - this service certainly
calls there more often nowadays than it did.

For many years after 1966 the only passenger use the Wembley Central Fast
and Slow Line platforms got was a call by a very early morning passenger and
news train out of Euston, plus specials for events at Wembley Stadium. When
the Connex Southcentral (now Southern) service started there were no stops
at Wembley Central, and most didn't stop at Harrow & Wealdstone either.

Peter

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:28:13 -0800, Mizter T
wrote:

On 10 Nov, 21:00, "Zen83237" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message

oups.com...

On 10 Nov, 19:28, Matthew wrote:
On 10 Nov, 17:57, Mizter T wrote:

(snip)

I've travelled from these platforms at Wembley Central, they are not
contained within the gateline (which only encompasses the DC line
platforms) and I can't recall there being an Oyster card reader there
for this purpose. It's a very good point though, one that I had failed
to consider in an earlier thread despite considering the late night
Silverlink County (to be London Midland) trains from/to Euston that
call at these platforms.

There are no Oyster readers on Platforms 3-6, and in the late night
periods when Silverlink County/London Midland serve the station, the
readers on the DC platforms are inside the locked part of the station,
so in practice PAYG is not valid.

Thanks for confirmation of that, I though they weren't any readers on
those platforms. I'd suggest that if PAYG becomes valid on Southern's
West London Line service (as is suggested elsewhere on this thread by
Paul Corfield) then this omission needs to be dealt with.

(snip)

I replied to a post further up then found this one. I was at Wembley Central
yesterday and found the station layout very bizarre. I didn't see ant oyster
readers and they routed the Watford train into the northbound platform,
dickheads.

Kevin

I don't think Wembley Central was ever really designed to be used as
it is now. The DC line platforms have always had a very regular
service (both Watford- Euston and Bakerloo) and hence at some point in
the fairly recent past were gated. I'm not sure whether the other
platforms were ever in regular use before the current Southern service
(which started back in Connex South Central days and originally
extended up to Rugby). I'm also unsure of how many of these services
called at Wembley Central at the beginning - this service certainly
calls there more often nowadays than it did.

Lastly unless there were radical changes then platforms 3-6 could not
easily be brought within the gateline at Wembley Central - the
passageway the platforms are accessed from (through doors that are
otherwise locked out of use) is a public passageway that provides
access to offices and shops that (I think) would otherwise not have
access. I guess one way of facilitating this would be to divide the
passageway up, but apart from any other issues given the pretty
infrequent service these extra platforms receive I suspect it just
wouldn't be worth it.

A trip down onto those platforms is certainly a somewhat bizarre
experience, I must say - it's a bit of a forgotten dingy hole, made
stranger when a fast Pendolino speeds through on the adjacent fast
lines and the whole underground space suddenly experiences a sudden
vortex of rushing wind. The kind of out of the ordinary unpolished
transport experience that's quite entertaining, in my books at least!

The current layout originates from what would have been appropriate
for the 1948 Olympics (i.e. as little obstruction as possible between
the Main Line platforms and the street) and at that time would no
doubt have had a sizeable amount of station staff allocated; IIRC the
booking office(s) was/were closer to the street before the current one
was built. Since then however the 1960s Station Square (which also has
access from side roads other than Wembley High Road) has been bolted
on top of the platforms without any attempt to maintain the convention
of all platforms being within one boundary. So the LNWR and LMS
probably had the design right but BR buggered it up by doing things on
the cheap (plus ca change.....). The new footbridge at the London end
goes some way to curing the 1960s bodge but unfortunately it is at the
opposite end of the station to the booking office and barriers so only
gets used on event days when extra staff are drafted in.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007

On 10 Nov, 22:06, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote

I don't think Wembley Central was ever really designed to be used as
it is now. The DC line platforms have always had a very regular
service (both Watford- Euston and Bakerloo) and hence at some point in
the fairly recent past were gated. I'm not sure whether the other
platforms were ever in regular use before the current Southern service
(which started back in Connex South Central days and originally
extended up to Rugby). I'm also unsure of how many of these services
called at Wembley Central at the beginning - this service certainly
calls there more often nowadays than it did.

For many years after 1966 the only passenger use the Wembley Central Fast
and Slow Line platforms got was a call by a very early morning passenger and
news train out of Euston, plus specials for events at Wembley Stadium. When
the Connex Southcentral (now Southern) service started there were no stops
at Wembley Central, and most didn't stop at Harrow & Wealdstone either.

Peter

Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

I didn't realise that the Connex service only had a few stops at H&W
when it began.

Am I right in saying the Connex service to Rugby was in fact launched
in pre-Connex days by Network SouthCentral (the pre-privatisation
Train Operating Unit as was before it fell under Connex ownership)?
And was it originally planned by Network SouthEast or was it a genuine
bit of innovation by the managers of Network SouthCentral?

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007

On 10 Nov, 23:02, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:28:13 -0800, Mizter T
wrote:

On 10 Nov, 21:00, "Zen83237" wrote:

(snip)

I replied to a post further up then found this one. I was at Wembley Central
yesterday and found the station layout very bizarre. I didn't see ant oyster
readers and they routed the Watford train into the northbound platform,
dickheads.

Kevin

I don't think Wembley Central was ever really designed to be used as
it is now. The DC line platforms have always had a very regular
service (both Watford- Euston and Bakerloo) and hence at some point in
the fairly recent past were gated. I'm not sure whether the other
platforms were ever in regular use before the current Southern service
(which started back in Connex South Central days and originally
extended up to Rugby). I'm also unsure of how many of these services
called at Wembley Central at the beginning - this service certainly
calls there more often nowadays than it did.

Lastly unless there were radical changes then platforms 3-6 could not
easily be brought within the gateline at Wembley Central - the
passageway the platforms are accessed from (through doors that are
otherwise locked out of use) is a public passageway that provides
access to offices and shops that (I think) would otherwise not have
access. I guess one way of facilitating this would be to divide the
passageway up, but apart from any other issues given the pretty
infrequent service these extra platforms receive I suspect it just
wouldn't be worth it.

A trip down onto those platforms is certainly a somewhat bizarre
experience, I must say - it's a bit of a forgotten dingy hole, made
stranger when a fast Pendolino speeds through on the adjacent fast
lines and the whole underground space suddenly experiences a sudden
vortex of rushing wind. The kind of out of the ordinary unpolished
transport experience that's quite entertaining, in my books at least!

The current layout originates from what would have been appropriate
for the 1948 Olympics (i.e. as little obstruction as possible between
the Main Line platforms and the street) and at that time would no
doubt have had a sizeable amount of station staff allocated; IIRC the
booking office(s) was/were closer to the street before the current one
was built. Since then however the 1960s Station Square (which also has
access from side roads other than Wembley High Road) has been bolted
on top of the platforms without any attempt to maintain the convention
of all platforms being within one boundary. So the LNWR and LMS
probably had the design right but BR buggered it up by doing things on
the cheap (plus ca change.....). The new footbridge at the London end
goes some way to curing the 1960s bodge but unfortunately it is at the
opposite end of the station to the booking office and barriers so only
gets used on event days when extra staff are drafted in.

Thanks, that all helps me to make sense of the current arrangement. I
guess that in the 60's perhaps BR failed to foresee any future usage
of the main line platforms other than for Wembley event day specials.

I'd presume that the tenants of Station Square would be most unwilling
to lose unfettered pedestrian access across the covered footbridge
corridor and be forced to use the side streets. I suspect they might
also not be spectacularly keen on losing a portion of that corridor so
it could be enclosed to become part of the fare-paid area.

The whole of the station arcade (including the covered corridor in
question) and the Station Square is all very grotty, taken in
combination it's all a pretty sorry state of affairs. Dare I suggest
that this could all get remedied some day with a welcome offer from a
property developer to knock down Station Square and build something
nicer. I guess there could be some less drastic ways of remedying the
whole situation too, like a spot of heavy cleaning and a determined
attempt at beautification.

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007

In message .com
W14_Fishbourne wrote:

On Nov 10, 3:36 pm, rail wrote:

It can cope with peak and off-peak fares on the UndergrounD

But on a simplistic and entirely different basis to NR fares.

So?

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

London Overground from 11 Nov 2007

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:29:50 -0800, Mizter T wrote:

On 10 Nov, 19:06, Paul Corfield wrote:

PAYG *not* valid on London Midland from Watford Junction - Harrow and
Wealdstone. I am waiting for a response to a question as to whether the
above non availability also means no availability of PAYG between
Watford and Euston on London Midland services.

Though that would logically follow. So basically no agreement with
London Midland (at least not yet) for PAYG on their services from
Watford Junction to points south, whilst the availability of PAYG from
H&W to Euston is inherited from Silverlink.

The alleged availability of PAYG on Southern from Watford Jn down to
Clapham Jn comes at some surprise - I can see PAYG being valid from
H&W down to Clapham Jn, but not from Watford Jn. I think it best to
await confirmation (or otherwise) of that!

The person who provided the info is very close to the Oyster and fares
issues. I trust his information to be completely accurate.

Fare enough, that sounds very authoritative. I just found it to be
slightly odd, not least as both Southern and London Midland are Govia
owned companies. I guess that London Midland has money to lose if it
were to accept PAYG from Watford Jn, whilst Southern wouldn't. Still,
pity the poor passenger!

I'm all in favour of having Oyster PAYG rolled out across the rail
network, but in a case such as this I can't help but feel that perhaps
it would make life easier for Southern to follow whatever London
Midland does between Watford Jn and H&W. It's one thing to expect pax
to differentiate between the fast trains and the stoppers at Watford
Jn, another for them to differentiate between one fast train and and
another fast train.

Stations from Hatch End - Watford Junction will be priced *for PAYG
only* on the Zones 6A-D principle as for the out county stretches of the
Met. The out county zones do not apply to Travelcards which are still
priced and issued as a Z1-6 plus rail to Watford Junction. I don't know
which stations on the DC line fall into which out county zones. Hatch
End remains in Zone 6.

Interesting stuff. One wonders if the term zones A-D will even appear
on customer facing literature - one hopes not as that would lead to
confusion (with people thinking a zones A-D Travelcard would be valid
when it won't be).

Having a look at the advance info I have on LU fares (one day tickets)
for 2008 there are references to Zones 1-9 as well as 1-8W. There is no
explanation provided but 1-8W rates are highest so perhaps these
reference One Day tickets valid to Watford Junction. Interestingly there
is no LU fare to Z1-8W but there is for Z1-9. If "W" does mean Watford
then the single fare treatment makes sense as LU services won't reach
Watford Junction.

I have to say I found the above somewhat befuddling until I'd mulled
it over for a bit.

Someone else with an inside track has already stated that zones A-D on
the extremities of the Metropolitan line are to become zones 7-9,
which would of course require some rationalisation (four zones into
three).

Perhaps this is how it'll work - there would be zones 7W and 8W which
would encompass Carpenders Park up to Watford Jn on the DC lines
stopping services (and perhaps, in the future, the London Midland
fasts when they come round to the idea!).

Meanwhile on the Met there would be the completely separate zones 7M,
8M and 9M.

Meanwhile in other areas of the home counties where the TOCs may opt
in to the Oyster PAYG system outside the London zones 1-6, other zone
suffixes could be used - for example zones 7G and 8G could encompass
c2c stations outside of the London zones 1-6 area out to Grays (c2c is
planning on accepting Oyster PAYG as far out as Grays from summer
2008).

If 'one' railway opts in to Oyster PAYG for, say as far as Shenfield
on the Great Eastern route, then perhaps there would be a zone 7S, and
a 7B (and maybe 8B) to encompass stations to Broxbourne (or even a
zone 7E - for East - that would encompass them both)

i.e. Such a zone naming scheme would preserve zones 1-6 as the core
London zones, and then further "out-boundary" *non-concentric* zones
could be added to extend the zonal system out into the home counties.

Anyway, that's just me speculating on how it could work.

It remains a bit of a shame that Watford Junction isn't going to
become part of the Met line zonal system (i.e. become part of zone A),
especially given the fact the Met's Watford station is in the same
town, albeit 15 (?) mins walk away from Watford Jn. But quite
predictable nonetheless. I think the TfL promotional map for London
Overground that showed Watford Jn as being in zone A certainly raised
some peoples hopes, which perhaps wasn't the best idea in retrospect.

Quite how all of this is going to be explained to the public is going to
be an interesting exercise.

Which is an *absolutely vital* issue. The design of any such ticketing
system should take this on board from the get-go.

More interesting still is that I have yet to see anything about the
rates for Rail Zonal tickets. Tube-Train tickets or Travelcard season
rates. Something tells me they are still being negotiated as well as
whether there are any different PAYG rates for those lines which go PAYG
in Jan 2008 (One, FCC, C2C).

Reading between the earlier press release from the Mayor's office
regarding next year's frozen LU and bus fares it certainly left wide
open the possibility that Travelcard fares were still being
negotiated.

Just to be clear to any other readers, 'one', FCC and c2c are all to
start accepting Oyster PAYG from all their stations within London
zones 1-6. c2c is the only TOC that would appear to have firm plans
for extending Oyster PAYG outside of zones 1-6 (though of course
London Overground will supposedly be accepting Oyster PAYG all the way
down from Watford Jn later on today).

The c2c press release concerning this is he
http://www.c2c-online.co.uk/templates/NewsArticle.aspx?id=668

All interesting developments. Presumably the TfL website's London
Overground section will go live tomorrow and answer some of these
questions.

I had expected something to go live well before now. I had expected
something better than the current mess we are in with Silverlink
redirecting to London Midland but nothing for the Metro networks. Worse
still the Gunnersbury - Richmond section of the NLL / District Line is
out of service due to a "signalling" problem. It must be a very serious
problem to cause day long disruption without an apparent fix being
possible. That junction has been a mess since it was renewed by Network
Rail earlier this year - goodness knows what they've done to it to make
it worse now than it was before they did the work. If NR don't sort
this out then it's a very inauspicious start for Overground tomorrow on
one of their main routes.

--
Paul C

I agree about the lack of information. At the very least the
Silverlink site should have displayed a splash screen with two options
- redirect to London Midland, or to London Overground. TfL could have
volunteered to host such a screen themselves.

However I do get the feeling that TfL wish to have a fairly low-key
start to London Overground, as the improvements will (obviously) be
incremental as opposed to overnight. In addition widely advertising
the future availability of Oyster PAYG, before it became valid, might
have led to people thinking PAYG was already good-to-go on the
Silverlink Metro lines and hence travelling ticketless, and also ended
up with unhappy people with costly unresolved journeys as a result of
them jumping the gun.

However it is a bit silly that on the day before LO takes over this
thread is alive with speculation as to how the Watford Junction PAYG
issue will be resolved. As I said earlier, this cannot have been
helped by the fact that the earlier promotional maps for LO placed
Watford Jn in zone A, which some people seemed to take as all the
confirmation they needed to presume this is how things would in fact
turn out.

Regarding the Gunnersbury Junction - I'd like to think that TfL will
be breathing down Network Rail's back pretty heavily to get this
sorted out, but of course the District line has been suffering at the
hands of this already. Perhaps there's an NR permanent way team there
right now trying to sort it out for tomorrow...