On Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:49:26 -0000, Andy wrote:

On Nov 8, 1:48 pm, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 15:44:48 -0800, wrote:
On 7 Nov, 17:10, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 15:32:40 -0000, "Paul Scott"

wrote:

"Charles Ellson" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:16:48 -0000, "Peter Masson"
wrote:

"Ken" wrote

But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the
"Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change.

Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford
Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County)
between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere?
Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in
view
of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction.

The specific references to "North London Railway" and the map on:-
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ground-map.pdf
would seem to exclude Southern and the non-DC route from Euston to
Watford.

That doesn't necessarily follow at all. If you drew a map of the
Metropolitan line without showing the Chiltern route, would that allow an
inference to be drawn about PAYG availability on Chiltern?

An inference is not always a certainty either way (and it depends on
the actual purpose of such a map). However, the information so far
published refers specifically to the "North London Railway" which does
not include the Southern franchise to/from Watford Junction. AFAIAA
that franchise is already a specific exemption from PAYG and appears
to remain so in the absence of further advice of any change.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Presumably the specific exemption for Oyster PAYG on Southern you are
referring to is that Oyster PAYG cannot be used on the Southern trains
which stop at Harrow & Wealdstone and Wembley Central even though
Oyster PAYG is valid on the DC line over that stretch or are you
thinking of something else?

No it isnt. PAYG is unavailable on the WLL
(see p.11 on
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa..._out_of_Oyster...)
and using that route requires use of a Travelcard or a non-zonal
ticket. This prevents use of PAYG from Kensington to Wembley Central
(Southern), Clapham Junction or Willesden Junction (Vomitlink).
snip

Ahh, the delights of changing operators!

From Sunday, the WLL will be included in PAYG as all the former
Silverlink Metro routes will be from day 1. Currently, however, it is
unclear as to whether Oyster PAYG is / will be available from Harrow &
Wealdstone to Wembley Central on the Southern trains. It certainly is
available on both the DC trains and the silverlink county trains that
stop at both stations (only a couple of night trains for county). If
you read the TFL leaflet referred to, it implies that Southern would
accept PAYG as operators are not mentioned on page 11, however, the
National Railway website only states Silverlink.

The TfL leaflet seems to be operator-transparent by quoting only
routes and by implication involves whoever is the franchise-holder at
the relevant time. Are the Oyster arrangements a matter between TfL
and individual operators or between TfL and the relevant rep for the
DfT/OPRAF/etc. ?

The map referred to earlier in the thread applied to the post 11th
November situation, as London Overground are shown as running the
trains, not national rail.

National Rail don't operate trains, it is a marketing name of ATOC who
currently have a "London Schemes" page on their website which is blank
(but maybe won't be in a few days' time?). London Overground** is
likewise a marketing name for services to be operated by TfL who
currently are not listed as members of ATOC; the physical operator of
London Overground services has been announced as MTR-Laing :-
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...ntre/5328.aspx

** There are a company registrations for "London Overground Ltd" (No.
3697180, in liquidation) and "London Overground Rail Operations Ltd"
(No. 5668786). Wikipedia claims that the former is a TOC which will
take over the North London Railway franchise which is possibly news to
Companies House; the latter now appears to be the current version (a
joint venture company) of the MTR-Laing franchise holding above. We
thus have the usual scope for confusion between "registered as" and
"trading as" names (the company in liquidation seems totally
unconnected as it traces back to a terraced house in Halifax).

Whether the extension of PAYG to Clapham
Junction for the London Overground trains will mean that Southern will
also accept it from Harrow - Clapham remains to be seen. Personally, I
think that they will take it, as London Overground will be the main
service provider for the route and it will be quite difficult to stop
people using PAYG on Southern trains between Olympia and West Brompton
and through to Clapham Junction.

As a local service it would seem to be a natural development of the
TfL/Oyster/Travelcard arrangements for the Southern service to be
included in the PAYG payment system. Isn't there something within
franchising arrangements where an operator providing services within
the area of another "inherits" an obligation to carry the passengers
on the same tickets ?

"Charles Ellson" wrote in message
...

National Rail don't operate trains, it is a marketing name of ATOC who
currently have a "London Schemes" page on their website which is blank
(but maybe won't be in a few days' time?).

I don't think that part of the ATOC site is available to the public, it only
contains one section (in the menu bar) called 'PAYG Incomplete Journeys',
which is restricted access, like much of the site...

London Overground** is
likewise a marketing name for services to be operated by TfL who
currently are not listed as members of ATOC; the physical operator of
London Overground services has been announced as MTR-Laing :-
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...ntre/5328.aspx


The National Rail list of TOCs has quite a bit on London Overground though,
maybe they'll join ATOC in due course...

http://nationalrail.co.uk/companies/LO.html

The section on upcomimg franchise changes also has a summary of LO at the
end of:

http://nationalrail.co.uk/tocs_maps/...nges_2007.html

With respect to PAYG on Southern/WLL, isn't the reported provision of
readers on platforms 2, 16 & 17 something of a giveaway?

Paul

This from this morning's Watford Observer. Confusion reigns, it would
seem.

THC

---

Confusion over Silverlink handover

http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/dis...ha ndover.php

A major shake-up of rail services at Watford Junction, which takes
effect on Sunday, has been blighted by confusion.

Angry commuters say obtaining information about just how much fares
will cost under the new system has been almost impossible.

And now doubt surrounds when - and if - Oyster cards will be able to
be used.

advertisementOn Sunday, Silverlink services between Watford Junction
and London Euston will be taken over by London Overground, a new
service operated by Transport for London (TFL), and London Midland.

According to London Underground, passengers using the stopping service
from Watford Junction to London Euston will be able to use Oyster
cards and enjoy reduced fares.

However those using the fast service from Watford to London - the
majority of commuters - will have to continue using paper tickets at
Silverlink rates.

A spokesperson for London Midland, the firm which will run the fast
service from Watford Junction to London Euston, said it was in talks
to introduce Oyster cards or another smart card by 2010.

For more on this story, and more information about fare prices, see
today's Watford Observer.

"THC" wrote in message
ups.com...
This from this morning's Watford Observer. Confusion reigns, it would
seem.

THC

---

Confusion over Silverlink handover

http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/dis...ha ndover.php

A major shake-up of rail services at Watford Junction, which takes
effect on Sunday, has been blighted by confusion.

Angry commuters say obtaining information about just how much fares
will cost under the new system has been almost impossible.


Completely predictable, but its basically down to pax 'presuming' changes
are going to occur, even when none have been announced. Most discussions
here have repeatedly touched on similar issues. The main one here is that WJ
is not currently in the zonal fares system, and you might expect regular WJ
commuters to know that already. Anyway, availability of Oyster PAYG on the
DC lines may still not result in zonal fares to WJ, just special fares
payable via PAYG, like in zones ABC&D...

Paul

On Nov 8, 5:10 pm, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:49:26 -0000, Andy wrote:

Ahh, the delights of changing operators!

From Sunday, the WLL will be included in PAYG as all the former
Silverlink Metro routes will be from day 1. Currently, however, it is
unclear as to whether Oyster PAYG is / will be available from Harrow &
Wealdstone to Wembley Central on the Southern trains. It certainly is
available on both the DC trains and the silverlink county trains that
stop at both stations (only a couple of night trains for county). If
you read the TFL leaflet referred to, it implies that Southern would
accept PAYG as operators are not mentioned on page 11, however, the
National Railway website only states Silverlink.

The TfL leaflet seems to be operator-transparent by quoting only
routes and by implication involves whoever is the franchise-holder at
the relevant time. Are the Oyster arrangements a matter between TfL
and individual operators or between TfL and the relevant rep for the
DfT/OPRAF/etc. ?

The map referred to earlier in the thread applied to the post 11th
November situation, as London Overground are shown as running the
trains, not national rail.

National Rail don't operate trains, it is a marketing name of ATOC who
currently have a "London Schemes" page on their website which is blank
(but maybe won't be in a few days' time?). London Overground** is
likewise a marketing name for services to be operated by TfL who
currently are not listed as members of ATOC; the physical operator of
London Overground services has been announced as MTR-Laing :-http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/5328.aspx


Yes, National Rail don't operate trains, but I suggest that you tell
TfL this, as their Oyster documentation and maps always seems to refer
to National Rail trains. If a person were only to look at the TfL
leaflets, they might think that Oyster PAYG is available on some
trains where it doesn't appear to be if you refer to the National Rail
information. The example being Harrow - Wembley Central on the few
Southern peak hour services

On Nov 7, 2:19 pm, "Alan Osborn" wrote:
wrote in message

ups.com...



On 6 Nov, 23:07, brixtonite wrote:
On Nov 6, 1:52 pm, Ken wrote:

But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the
"Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change.

Does this mean that someone with Oyster PAYG could get through the
barriers at Clapham Junction and Richmond or Wimbledon, although they
couldn't legally take a direct train between them? If they did, would
they be charged as if they'd changed at West Brompton and take the
district line?

The simple answer is to allow for the time the indirect route would
take. I think that it would be unlikely for someone to be able to make
the journey from Clapham Junction to Wimbledon via West Brompton in
less than 20 minutes whereas the direct route is well under half
that. Make the ticket gates charge a penalty for anyone making the
journey in less than 20 minutes.

No different to the existing situation between Paddington suburban and
Ealing Broadway, Ealing Broadway and Greenford, Wimbledon and
Richmond, New Cross or New Cross Gate and (say) Farringdon where
exising access is shared between the underground and National Rail.

Jonathan

Jonathan

How far out of London can you buy a combined London return fare inclusive of
a Travelcard. When I travel to London from Oxford I always ask for a London
Travelcard, that gives me a return fare to London plus an all zone
travelcard.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well at one time it was from anywhere in the former Network SE area.

These days it's expanded a bit with some TOCs - for example I think
FGW do them from Bristol and probably a lot of other places, and
Chiltern go further out than Banbury. Not necessarily any cheaper
than buying the tickets separately. Depending on the time of travel
quite the opposite sometimes.

On Nov 9, 10:47 am, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"THC" wrote in message

ups.com...



This from this morning's Watford Observer. Confusion reigns, it would
seem.

THC

---

Confusion over Silverlink handover

http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/dis...confusion_over...

A major shake-up of rail services at Watford Junction, which takes
effect on Sunday, has been blighted by confusion.

Angry commuters say obtaining information about just how much fares
will cost under the new system has been almost impossible.

Completely predictable, but its basically down to pax 'presuming' changes
are going to occur, even when none have been announced. Most discussions
here have repeatedly touched on similar issues. The main one here is that WJ
is not currently in the zonal fares system, and you might expect regular WJ
commuters to know that already. Anyway, availability of Oyster PAYG on the
DC lines may still not result in zonal fares to WJ, just special fares
payable via PAYG, like in zones ABC&D...

Paul

So currently I can buy a ticket watford junction to harrow and
wealdstone and then get on any train (that stops at H&W) without any
issue.

Presumably, on Sunday I will be able to do exactly the same, it will
make no difference?

But I can't use oyster to pay for that journey on the fast trains (I
asked at Euston last night) but I can use oyster to pay from H&W to
Euston currently. Will I be able to use my paper ticket on the DC line
still?

So the oyster fare is going to be exactly the same price as the
mainline fare but I have to make sure I buy a paper ticket and not use
oyster for the journey.

It isn't clear to me what is and isn't going to be allowed. If it's
all so obvious then why hasn't someone published it already. The cynic
in me thinks its whoever is taking over the mainline and London
underground rubbing their hands in glee at the penalty fares they are
going to collect over the next few months.

My season ticket expires on 5th December. What is the fare structure
going to be in the new year. Will WJ be zoned then? Will oyster be
valid from WJ on the fast trains? What will the prices be or at least
what will the zones be?

Tim.

wrote in message
oups.com...
On Nov 9, 10:47 am, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Completely predictable, but its basically down to pax 'presuming' changes
are going to occur, even when none have been announced. Most discussions
here have repeatedly touched on similar issues. The main one here is that
WJ
is not currently in the zonal fares system, and you might expect regular
WJ
commuters to know that already. Anyway, availability of Oyster PAYG on
the
DC lines may still not result in zonal fares to WJ, just special fares
payable via PAYG, like in zones ABC&D...

Paul

So currently I can buy a ticket watford junction to harrow and
wealdstone and then get on any train (that stops at H&W) without any
issue.

Presumably, on Sunday I will be able to do exactly the same, it will
make no difference?

Seems reasonable - LO is still a TOC just like Silverlink Metro was, there
timetables are still in the NR timetable for next year, and NR fares are
still shown in the usual NR web planners...

But I can't use oyster to pay for that journey on the fast trains (I
asked at Euston last night) but I can use oyster to pay from H&W to
Euston currently. Will I be able to use my paper ticket on the DC line
still?

So the oyster fare is going to be exactly the same price as the
mainline fare but I have to make sure I buy a paper ticket and not use
oyster for the journey.

That's a reasonable assumption, unless an Oyster special introductory fare
is offered, as has been mentioned in the past - but maybe that'll be NLL
only, where other TOCs aren't involved...

It isn't clear to me what is and isn't going to be allowed. If it's
all so obvious then why hasn't someone published it already. The cynic
in me thinks its whoever is taking over the mainline and London
underground rubbing their hands in glee at the penalty fares they are
going to collect over the next few months.

Perhaps the point is simply that nothing about the actual fares or validity
will change, so that's all that needs announcing?

My season ticket expires on 5th December. What is the fare structure
going to be in the new year. Will WJ be zoned then? Will oyster be
valid from WJ on the fast trains? What will the prices be or at least
what will the zones be?


Good questions, but at least some could have been equally relevant even if
the DC lines weren't transferred to TfL. I still think a lot of pax are
presuming that everything will change on Sunday, whereas all the evidence so
far is that it will more or less stay the same, barring Oyster prepay where
available, and many of the possible changes will happen in January.

Paul

On Nov 9, 12:57 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Perhaps the point is simply that nothing about the actual fares or validity
will change, so that's all that needs announcing?

But it will change, that's the point. From Sunday you WILL be able to
use Oyster to/from Watford junction. Currently (I think) you can use
it between WJ and H&W - could be Hatch End - and I think you CAN'T use
it at some of the intermediate stops.

So people at WJ are going to see a difference. At the moment, when I
arrive at WJ in the morning I have only one way to get through the
barriers (my Gold Card), on Monday I will have two ways.

Will return tickets still be available for things like WJ-Hatch End?
My partner does this regularly - IIRC the return costs 10p more than
the single - or will it be singles only - in which case she might as
well use an oyster card.

Tim.

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Nov 9, 12:57 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Perhaps the point is simply that nothing about the actual fares or
validity
will change, so that's all that needs announcing?

But it will change, that's the point. From Sunday you WILL be able to
use Oyster to/from Watford junction. Currently (I think) you can use
it between WJ and H&W - could be Hatch End - and I think you CAN'T use
it at some of the intermediate stops.

So people at WJ are going to see a difference. At the moment, when I
arrive at WJ in the morning I have only one way to get through the
barriers (my Gold Card), on Monday I will have two ways.

Will return tickets still be available for things like WJ-Hatch End?
My partner does this regularly - IIRC the return costs 10p more than
the single - or will it be singles only - in which case she might as
well use an oyster card.


Yes - all the normal fares (£3.10 CDR?) are still available, using the NR
planner - as I've said before, LO is still part of the rail network. There
must be other lines where people have to decide whether to buy a NR style
return ticket, or use Oyster - those outer bits of the Met/Chiltern for
instance?

Paul