|
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On 6 Nov, 12:57, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Charles Ellson" wrote in message ... Received from Oyster Customer Services:- I am writing to inform you about the new train service managed by TFL, the London Overground. This new service starts operating from 11 November 2007, when TfL takes over the running of the North London, West London, Gospel Oak to Barking and Euston/Watford Junction local lines. I suspect the "new train service" will be the same "old train service" with new vinyls for some time to come as the first mention of anything substantial is new trains in 2009 in:- Not even new vinyls, just removal of the 'Silverlink' name. Paul But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the "Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change. And, according to a thread on uk.transport.london, Hampstead Heath and Willesden Jct. will be re-zoned back to Zone 2 (or maybe 2/3) as they were until about 10 years ago, so a pax holding a z12 travelcard could go anywhere between Acton - Hackney Wick without having to worry about excess fares. The only problem I foresee is many Londoners, especially the habitual tube-users, refer to what the rest of us call "the railway" or "the train" as "the overground", eg "I took the overground from Walthamstow to Liverpool St rather than using the tube". It's hard enough when people ask if they can use "an Oyster Card" to Bruce Grove, say, to explain that if it is a Travelcard with enough zones on it they can, but if it is a PAYG, or a z1-2 plus PAYG, then they have to buy a separate paper ticket, especially if English is not their first language, as is common in that area. I find using the expression "top-up Oyster card", rather than PAYG, is more comprehensible to a lot of people. Even among my friends locally in Romford, many don't see the distinction until it is explained pretty slowly! In the pub one day I was subjected to a diatribe about "Phil went to Sutton on his Oyster Card, and got fined when he got to Sutton". When it becomes known that you can use PAYG on what my namesake has decided to call "The Overground", thousands of people will take this to mean you can use PAYG on "the overground", i.e. all NR lines in London, and most probably beyond. It will be confusing enough that the distinction between "you can't use PAYG on overground trains, only buses and tubes[1]" and "you can use a Travelcard on Oyster anywhere in the zones which it covers, on tubes and trains, just like a paper Travelcard [2]" will have been lost, but "you can't use PAYG/top-up on overground trains, except Overground trains" is going to be a recipe for total confusion. [1] Except between two "overground" stations that are also "tube" stations, but this represents only a tiny fraction of NR train journeys. [2] And, of course, on any TfL bus in any zone. -- Ken cross-posted to u.t.l |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
"Ken" wrote But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the "Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change. Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County) between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere? Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in view of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction. Peter Peter |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On 6 Nov, 14:16, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Ken" wrote But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the "Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change. Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County) between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere? Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in view of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction. Peter Peter This is the sort of thing which puts me off having one- to put things into perspective, I live in Yorkshire and travel down to London probably twice a year on average. I like the idea of not having to queue at Kings Cross for a Travelcard (especially as Trainline et al only seem to be able to sell Z1-2 ones as add-ons) and buy another one every morning. Trouble is, when I come down in about ten days' time, I may need to go to Walthamstow on the Sunday and the Victoria Line's closed, so I'll have to use One from Liverpool Street instead- so I'll presumably need a paper one that day and half the object of getting one is defeated. On balance, I'll just wait for things to settle down, I think. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On 6 Nov, 17:45, Ianigsy wrote:
On 6 Nov, 14:16, "Peter Masson" wrote: "Ken" wrote But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the "Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change. Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County) between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere? Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in view of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction. Peter Peter This is the sort of thing which puts me off having one- to put things into perspective, I live in Yorkshire and travel down to London probably twice a year on average. I like the idea of not having to queue at Kings Cross for a Travelcard (especially as Trainline et al only seem to be able to sell Z1-2 ones as add-ons) and buy another one every morning. Trouble is, when I come down in about ten days' time, I may need to go to Walthamstow on the Sunday and the Victoria Line's closed, so I'll have to use One from Liverpool Street instead- and it's taken a look at the website to see that Oyster is accepted from Walthamstow Central to Liverpool Street. I get the impression that while Oyster may be fine for people who live in London and for tourists who only really want the central zones, it's a bit more patchy for those of us who visit London once or twice a year and want to go to specific places- but I'm sure it'll be fine once it's settled down. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Nov 6, 5:45 pm, Ianigsy wrote:
This is the sort of thing which puts me off having one- to put things into perspective, I live in Yorkshire and travel down to London probably twice a year on average. I like the idea of not having to queue at Kings Cross for a Travelcard (especially as Trainline et al only seem to be able to sell Z1-2 ones as add-ons) and buy another one every morning. Trouble is, when I come down in about ten days' time, I may need to go to Walthamstow on the Sunday and the Victoria Line's closed, so I'll have to use One from Liverpool Street instead- so I'll presumably need a paper one that day and half the object of getting one is defeated. Oyster PAYG is, happily, valid on 'one' between Liverpool Street and Walthamstow (and Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters, but not at stations in between). Confusing, but useful. -- Abi |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
"Ianigsy" wrote This is the sort of thing which puts me off having one- to put things into perspective, I live in Yorkshire and travel down to London probably twice a year on average. I like the idea of not having to queue at Kings Cross for a Travelcard (especially as Trainline et al only seem to be able to sell Z1-2 ones as add-ons) and buy another one every morning. Trouble is, when I come down in about ten days' time, I may need to go to Walthamstow on the Sunday and the Victoria Line's closed, so I'll have to use One from Liverpool Street instead- so I'll presumably need a paper one that day and half the object of getting one is defeated. Liverpool Street - Walthamstow Central is one (no pun intended) of the National Rail routes on which Oyster PAYG is already accepted (though not at intermediate stations). http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx Peter |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Nov 6, 5:53 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Ianigsy" wrote This is the sort of thing which puts me off having one- to put things into perspective, I live in Yorkshire and travel down to London probably twice a year on average. I like the idea of not having to queue at Kings Cross for a Travelcard (especially as Trainline et al only seem to be able to sell Z1-2 ones as add-ons) and buy another one every morning. Trouble is, when I come down in about ten days' time, I may need to go to Walthamstow on the Sunday and the Victoria Line's closed, so I'll have to use One from Liverpool Street instead- so I'll presumably need a paper one that day and half the object of getting one is defeated. Liverpool Street - Walthamstow Central is one (no pun intended) of the National Rail routes on which Oyster PAYG is already accepted (though not at intermediate stations).http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx Peter It occurs to me that the 'Overground' network branding would make more sense if it consisted of all non-LUL lines where Oyster PAYG is accepted. This would be much easier for visitors to London (and residents for that matter) to understand. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
At 10:05:11 on Tue, 6 Nov 2007 umpston opined:-
On Nov 6, 5:53 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote: "Ianigsy" wrote This is the sort of thing which puts me off having one- to put things into perspective, I live in Yorkshire and travel down to London probably twice a year on average. I like the idea of not having to queue at Kings Cross for a Travelcard (especially as Trainline et al only seem to be able to sell Z1-2 ones as add-ons) and buy another one every morning. Trouble is, when I come down in about ten days' time, I may need to go to Walthamstow on the Sunday and the Victoria Line's closed, so I'll have to use One from Liverpool Street instead- so I'll presumably need a paper one that day and half the object of getting one is defeated. Liverpool Street - Walthamstow Central is one (no pun intended) of the National Rail routes on which Oyster PAYG is already accepted (though not at intermediate stations).http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx Peter It occurs to me that the 'Overground' network branding would make more sense if it consisted of all non-LUL lines where Oyster PAYG is accepted. This would be much easier for visitors to London (and residents for that matter) to understand. I see that the Overground map in Ken's free newspaper The Londoner shows not only Shepherd's Bush but also Imperial Wharf. Could lead to a lot of confusion. -- Thoss |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
"umpston" wrote in message ups.com... On Nov 6, 5:53 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote: "Ianigsy" wrote This is the sort of thing which puts me off having one- to put things into perspective, I live in Yorkshire and travel down to London probably twice a year on average. I like the idea of not having to queue at Kings Cross for a Travelcard (especially as Trainline et al only seem to be able to sell Z1-2 ones as add-ons) and buy another one every morning. Trouble is, when I come down in about ten days' time, I may need to go to Walthamstow on the Sunday and the Victoria Line's closed, so I'll have to use One from Liverpool Street instead- so I'll presumably need a paper one that day and half the object of getting one is defeated. Liverpool Street - Walthamstow Central is one (no pun intended) of the National Rail routes on which Oyster PAYG is already accepted (though not at intermediate stations).http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx Peter It occurs to me that the 'Overground' network branding would make more sense if it consisted of all non-LUL lines where Oyster PAYG is accepted. This would be much easier for visitors to London (and residents for that matter) to understand. It would, but it would still be horrendously complicated, as there are several routes where Oyster PAYG is accepted between specified points, but not at intermediate stations. As it is, if you have to make several journeys by bus and/or tube in a day, Oyster PAYG is what you want, but add just one National Rail journey on which Oyster PAYG is not accepted, and you need a paper ODTC - but if you hold a Railcard you may want the paper ODTC anyway (but only at weekends if it is a Network Card), even if you are not going to use National Rail. Peter |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On 6 Nov, 13:52, Ken wrote:
[1] Except between two "overground" stations that are also "tube" stations, but this represents only a tiny fraction of NR train journeys. Not true. I frequently travel Manor House - Stratford via the NLL. I have a z1-2 travelcard and (before PAYG) used my oyster + a paper extension ticket. When PAYG came along I had understood it was OK to swipe in/out (iirc the cost was the same). However I was penalty fared about 2 months ago. I had a long argument with a member of the PF staff (who didn't strike me as a LUL person but I may be wrong). He told me *categorically* that you could not use PAYG on *any* overground line (which is of course not true - I checked and there were routes that were OK). Very unhelpful and unnecessary. If you could buy train tickets at tube stations things would be much better. Basically the whole tube system is a blot on the UK public transport network. Having all these stations refusing to issue through tickets to the rest of the rail network seems amazingly old-fashioned. Francis |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
umpston wrote:
On Nov 6, 5:53 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote: "Ianigsy" wrote This is the sort of thing which puts me off having one- to put things into perspective, I live in Yorkshire and travel down to London probably twice a year on average. I like the idea of not having to queue at Kings Cross for a Travelcard (especially as Trainline et al only seem to be able to sell Z1-2 ones as add-ons) and buy another one every morning. Trouble is, when I come down in about ten days' time, I may need to go to Walthamstow on the Sunday and the Victoria Line's closed, so I'll have to use One from Liverpool Street instead- so I'll presumably need a paper one that day and half the object of getting one is defeated. Liverpool Street - Walthamstow Central is one (no pun intended) of the National Rail routes on which Oyster PAYG is already accepted (though not at intermediate stations).http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx Peter It occurs to me that the 'Overground' network branding would make more sense if it consisted of all non-LUL lines where Oyster PAYG is accepted. This would be much easier for visitors to London (and residents for that matter) to understand. 3-4 years ago a London "Overground Network" was launched with a few photos in the local papers and some shiney but largely pointless branded signage at National Rail stations. It is lucky it was so underwhelming and soon fizzled out, else it would add to the confusion. I've a feeling there are still some ON signs around, which won't help. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Nov 6, 6:56 pm, Arthur Figgis wrote:
umpston wrote: On Nov 6, 5:53 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote: "Ianigsy" wrote This is the sort of thing which puts me off having one- to put things into perspective, I live in Yorkshire and travel down to London probably twice a year on average. I like the idea of not having to queue at Kings Cross for a Travelcard (especially as Trainline et al only seem to be able to sell Z1-2 ones as add-ons) and buy another one every morning. Trouble is, when I come down in about ten days' time, I may need to go to Walthamstow on the Sunday and the Victoria Line's closed, so I'll have to use One from Liverpool Street instead- so I'll presumably need a paper one that day and half the object of getting one is defeated. Liverpool Street - Walthamstow Central is one (no pun intended) of the National Rail routes on which Oyster PAYG is already accepted (though not at intermediate stations).http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx Peter It occurs to me that the 'Overground' network branding would make more sense if it consisted of all non-LUL lines where Oyster PAYG is accepted. This would be much easier for visitors to London (and residents for that matter) to understand. 3-4 years ago a London "Overground Network" was launched with a few photos in the local papers and some shiney but largely pointless branded signage at National Rail stations. It is lucky it was so underwhelming and soon fizzled out, else it would add to the confusion. I've a feeling there are still some ON signs around, which won't help. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK Thanks Arthur, I'd forgotten that! However something like my idea might possibly be in TfL's long term thinking since, according to this quote from wikipedia, TFL's medium-term aspiration is for the new 'London Overground' to be "expanded to cover other National Rail services in London and the South-East, either by direct TFL operation through a concession-holder (as with the ex-Silverlink routes) or by a TOC agreeing to operate under the London Overground brand" Quoted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overground_Network |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
If you could buy train tickets at tube
stations things would be much better. Basically the whole tube system is a blot on the UK public transport network. Having all these stations refusing to issue through tickets to the rest of the rail network seems amazingly old-fashioned. Francis Having got myself tied up in knots earlier on, I've now ordered an Oyster card so we'll have to see what happens. I think the thing is that Oyster seems to be a step forward technologically but a step backward (to the days before Travelcards) in terms of how the PAYG side works. It should work in my favour- I'll save time at Kings Cross on the way down, and it saves me having to have cash for ticket machines every morning, and as I plan to have a trip on the East London Line I'll certainly get some use out of it. But there must be plenty of overseas tourists who find themselves bemused that they can't buy a ticket at the underground station next to their hotel to take them to, say, Windsor, but they could buy a day travelcard at Windsor which would cover the whole of London. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:16:48 -0000, "Peter Masson"
wrote: "Ken" wrote But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the "Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change. Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County) between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere? Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in view of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction. The specific references to "North London Railway" and the map on:- http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ground-map.pdf would seem to exclude Southern and the non-DC route from Euston to Watford. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 14:03:14 -0800, Ianigsy wrote:
If you could buy train tickets at tube stations things would be much better. Basically the whole tube system is a blot on the UK public transport network. Having all these stations refusing to issue through tickets to the rest of the rail network seems amazingly old-fashioned. I think the thing is that Oyster seems to be a step forward technologically but a step backward (to the days before Travelcards) in terms of how the PAYG side works. It should work in my favour- I'll save time at Kings Cross on the way down, and it saves me having to have cash for ticket machines every morning, and as I plan to have a trip on the East London Line I'll certainly get some use out of it. But there must be plenty of overseas tourists who find themselves bemused that they can't buy a ticket at the underground station next to their hotel to take them to, say, Windsor, but they could buy a day travelcard at Windsor which would cover the whole of London. You can buy a ticket to Windsor at any LU station. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Nov 6, 1:52 pm, Ken wrote:
But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the "Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change. Does this mean that someone with Oyster PAYG could get through the barriers at Clapham Junction and Richmond or Wimbledon, although they couldn't legally take a direct train between them? If they did, would they be charged as if they'd changed at West Brompton and take the district line? |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:50:21 +0000,
Charles Ellson wrote: On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:16:48 -0000, "Peter Masson" wrote: "Ken" wrote But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the "Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change. Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County) between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere? Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in view of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction. The specific references to "North London Railway" and the map on:- http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ground-map.pdf would seem to exclude Southern and the non-DC route from Euston to Watford. It's going to be a nightmare and people are going to get very confused if that is the case. :-( There are validators in the subway at the entrances to platforms 7 and 9 so it certainly seems that the long term intention is to enable oyster to be used on the mainline trains from WJ. The only use for these validators I can think of is for people coming from platform 11. I've not noticed if there's a validator near the carpark entrance on platform 9. I'm assuming there will be validators near platforms 1-4 (if I remember tomorrow I'll take a look) otherwise the ones in the subway could also be for people changing from mainline to DC line at WJ - but that seems crazy - people running for a train are bound to forget to validate in the subway. My current WJ-Euston season ticket was 2064GBP. On a quick look at the current timetables the "best" PAYG route would be: 07:40 depart WJ 07:56 arrive H&W 07:58 depart H&W on the train that departed WJ at 07:52 (so adding 12 minutes to the journey time) This would cost 4:50 PAYG assuming WJ is in zone A like Watford (Met). Assume return before 7pm and the daily return fare is 9GBP. Assume 220 days and thats 1980GBP so very little in it. I very rarely return before 7pm (and often depart before 7am) which would reduce the fare to 6GBP/day or 1320GBP (In this case the best route I can see would depart WJ at 06:20 joining with the 06:38 WJ departure rather than the (non-stop) 06:42 departure so 26 minutes longer - the 06:25 gets in at 06:46 so anyone doing this is going to see two trains go past that they could have been on and either have had more time in bed or more time in London) It's going to become a game for people to either be close to the guard when a train departs Euston (so they get their PAYG checked before H&W) or far away from the guard when the train departs WJ so the guard doesn't see them until after H&W. (and of course anybody who wants to do this should make sure they get on a H&W stopping train and probably know the arrival time of the DC line so they can claim they were in the toilet to account for the timings ;-) Tim. -- God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light. http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/ |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On 6 Nov, 23:43, Tim Woodall wrote:
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:50:21 +0000, Charles Ellson wrote: On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:16:48 -0000, "Peter Masson" wrote: "Ken" wrote But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the "Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change. Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County) between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere? Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in view of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction. The specific references to "North London Railway" and the map on:- http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ground-map.pdf would seem to exclude Southern and the non-DC route from Euston to Watford. It's going to be a nightmare and people are going to get very confused if that is the case. :-( There are validators in the subway at the entrances to platforms 7 and 9 so it certainly seems that the long term intention is to enable oyster to be used on the mainline trains from WJ. The only use for these validators I can think of is for people coming from platform 11. I've not noticed if there's a validator near the carpark entrance on platform 9. I'm assuming there will be validators near platforms 1-4 (if I remember tomorrow I'll take a look) otherwise the ones in the subway could also be for people changing from mainline to DC line at WJ - but that seems crazy - people running for a train are bound to forget to validate in the subway. My current WJ-Euston season ticket was 2064GBP. On a quick look at the current timetables the "best" PAYG route would be: 07:40 depart WJ 07:56 arrive H&W 07:58 depart H&W on the train that departed WJ at 07:52 (so adding 12 minutes to the journey time) This would cost 4:50 PAYG assuming WJ is in zone A like Watford (Met). Assume return before 7pm and the daily return fare is 9GBP. Assume 220 days and thats 1980GBP so very little in it. I very rarely return before 7pm (and often depart before 7am) which would reduce the fare to 6GBP/day or 1320GBP (In this case the best route I can see would depart WJ at 06:20 joining with the 06:38 WJ departure rather than the (non-stop) 06:42 departure so 26 minutes longer - the 06:25 gets in at 06:46 so anyone doing this is going to see two trains go past that they could have been on and either have had more time in bed or more time in London) It's going to become a game for people to either be close to the guard when a train departs Euston (so they get their PAYG checked before H&W) or far away from the guard when the train departs WJ so the guard doesn't see them until after H&W. (and of course anybody who wants to do this should make sure they get on a H&W stopping train and probably know the arrival time of the DC line so they can claim they were in the toilet to account for the timings ;-) Tim. -- God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light. http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - There is plenty of talk about Oyster PAYG being available on London Overground but very little in writing about the actual fares to be charged for PAYG. The assumption seems to be that the fares will be the same as those on the underground under PAYG. Is this actually the case? Looking at the single fare finder on the TfL website - some fares appear to be set with connections via London Overground in mind, a single from Richmond to Harrow & Wealdstone is £1.80 peak, £1.00 off- peak. From Gunnersbury to Stonebridge Park, the fare is £1.00 at all times. Given that these journeys aren't possible other than via Zone 1 on PAYG at the moment, I guess that underground level Oyster fares will apply more generally. Interestingly, journeys to Highbury & Islington, Blackhorse Road, Stratford etc are still at the "via Zone 1" level. Can anyone explain which route justifies Harrow and Wealdstone to Harrow-on-the-Hill being £1.00 at all times according to the fare finder? Even if you go via Brondesbury post 11 November, it can't be done without going from Zone 5 to Zone 5 via Zone 2. Does the single fare finder work by matching up pairs of stations and selecting a fare or by looking simply at the zones of the two stations? Jonathan |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On 6 Nov, 23:07, brixtonite wrote:
On Nov 6, 1:52 pm, Ken wrote: But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the "Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change. Does this mean that someone with Oyster PAYG could get through the barriers at Clapham Junction and Richmond or Wimbledon, although they couldn't legally take a direct train between them? If they did, would they be charged as if they'd changed at West Brompton and take the district line? The simple answer is to allow for the time the indirect route would take. I think that it would be unlikely for someone to be able to make the journey from Clapham Junction to Wimbledon via West Brompton in less than 20 minutes whereas the direct route is well under half that. Make the ticket gates charge a penalty for anyone making the journey in less than 20 minutes. No different to the existing situation between Paddington suburban and Ealing Broadway, Ealing Broadway and Greenford, Wimbledon and Richmond, New Cross or New Cross Gate and (say) Farringdon where exising access is shared between the underground and National Rail. Jonathan Jonathan |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 13:00:26 -0800, umpston
wrote: Quoted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overground_Network This link led me to [[London Overground]], which makes an interesting point: "When the [East London Railway] extension opens, the London Overground will [...] be below the London Underground part of Whitechapel tube station" (!) |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
Ianigsy wrote in
ups.com: I get the impression that while Oyster may be fine for people who live in London and for tourists who only really want the central zones, it's a bit more patchy for those of us who visit London once or twice a year and want to go to specific places- but I'm sure it'll be fine once it's settled down. I think that's fair comment. It would be a little bit easier, of course, if the obvious alternative for very occasional travellers - ie paying in cash - weren't, by design, so astoundingly expensive in London. -- Bewdley, Worcs. ~90m asl. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
Ianigsy wrote in news:1194386594.889613.260210
@o3g2000hsb.googlegroups.com: snip I think the thing is that Oyster seems to be a step forward technologically but a step backward (to the days before Travelcards) in terms of how the PAYG side works. snip I sometimes think that maybe the appropriate regulatory body should have said, "You can only introduce this when *all* trains in London can accept them - and if that means no Oyster till 2010, Ken, then tough I'm afraid." -- Bewdley, Worcs. ~90m asl. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
Can anyone explain which route justifies Harrow and Wealdstone to Harrow-on-the-Hill being £1.00 at all times according to the fare finder? Even if you go via Brondesbury post 11 November, it can't be done without going from Zone 5 to Zone 5 via Zone 2. Does the single fare finder work by matching up pairs of stations and selecting a fare or by looking simply at the zones of the two stations? Kenton to Northwick Park is a valid "out-of-barrier" interchange, so that is the intended route. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
|
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 01:17:56 +0000, James Farrar wrote:
Quoted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overground_Network This link led me to [[London Overground]], which makes an interesting point: "When the [East London Railway] extension opens, the London Overground will [...] be below the London Underground part of Whitechapel tube station" (!) That will be the case from Sunday at Stratford, where the NLL platforms are below the Central Line platforms. (Also just to the west of West Hampstead, where the NLL passes under the Met and Jubilee, etc.) |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Nov 7, 1:03 am, wrote:
There is plenty of talk about Oyster PAYG being available on London Overground but very little in writing about the actual fares to be charged for PAYG. The assumption seems to be that the fares will be the same as those on the underground under PAYG. Is this actually the case? I can't believe that four days before going live they don't seem to even have published what zones the extra stations are going to be in on the Watford line. I got an email yesterday to my oyster card address giving me a link (to a strange domain that redirected to tfl.gov.uk) but that had no more information than I've seen before. Tim. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Nov 6, 11:43 pm, Tim Woodall wrote:
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:50:21 +0000, Charles Ellson wrote: On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:16:48 -0000, "Peter Masson" wrote: "Ken" wrote But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the "Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change. Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County) between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere? Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in view of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction. The specific references to "North London Railway" and the map on:- http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ground-map.pdf would seem to exclude Southern and the non-DC route from Euston to Watford. It's going to be a nightmare and people are going to get very confused if that is the case. :-( One more clue about possible acceptance of Oyster PAYG on Southern services is the presence of Oyster PAYG validators on Platforms 2,16 and 17 at Clapham Junction (but not on the other platforms). Platforms 2 and 17 can be used by what will be the Overground trains (to / from Willesden), but it would be very unusual to see a Metro train in Platform 16, as the only access is via a shunt East (geographically) / North (direction of the service) of the station. Any train undertaking the shunt is likely to just run in service back in the Olympia direction. Also, within the zones, would Southern have any choice but to accept PAYG, as I think that Silverlink would currently set the fares and if they (as Overground) as setting the fares at PAYG Oyster levels, then Southern would have no choice but to accept them. The acceptance (or not) of PAYG to Watford Junction on Southern would just be the same as PAYG for the London Midland services. As both are run by Govia, then I'd imagine a common policy. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
wrote in message ups.com... On 6 Nov, 23:07, brixtonite wrote: On Nov 6, 1:52 pm, Ken wrote: But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the "Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change. Does this mean that someone with Oyster PAYG could get through the barriers at Clapham Junction and Richmond or Wimbledon, although they couldn't legally take a direct train between them? If they did, would they be charged as if they'd changed at West Brompton and take the district line? The simple answer is to allow for the time the indirect route would take. I think that it would be unlikely for someone to be able to make the journey from Clapham Junction to Wimbledon via West Brompton in less than 20 minutes whereas the direct route is well under half that. Make the ticket gates charge a penalty for anyone making the journey in less than 20 minutes. No different to the existing situation between Paddington suburban and Ealing Broadway, Ealing Broadway and Greenford, Wimbledon and Richmond, New Cross or New Cross Gate and (say) Farringdon where exising access is shared between the underground and National Rail. Jonathan Jonathan How far out of London can you buy a combined London return fare inclusive of a Travelcard. When I travel to London from Oxford I always ask for a London Travelcard, that gives me a return fare to London plus an all zone travelcard. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
"Arthur Figgis" wrote in message ... umpston wrote: On Nov 6, 5:53 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote: It occurs to me that the 'Overground' network branding would make more sense if it consisted of all non-LUL lines where Oyster PAYG is accepted. This would be much easier for visitors to London (and residents for that matter) to understand. 3-4 years ago a London "Overground Network" was launched with a few photos in the local papers and some shiney but largely pointless branded signage at National Rail stations. It is lucky it was so underwhelming and soon fizzled out, else it would add to the confusion. I've a feeling there are still some ON signs around, which won't help. There are plenty of old type 'on' overground network signs about in South London. Another thread in uk.t.l proposed that TfL don't see them as their problem, but its for the TOCs affected to put right - I think it will definitely add to the confusion as soon as Sunday, when Ken announces with a great fanfare that PAYG is now available on the 'Overground' - the new one that is, not the previous one, or the 'colloquial' anything other than LU' one... Paul |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
wrote in message ps.com... There is plenty of talk about Oyster PAYG being available on London Overground but very little in writing about the actual fares to be charged for PAYG. The assumption seems to be that the fares will be the same as those on the underground under PAYG. Is this actually the case? I don't think so. I've just emailed them with that very question though. Current evidence from NR's online planner is that London Overground is just a change of TOC, and fares will be rail fares, not tube fares, with normal point to point NR tickets remaining available. Another pertinent point is that NR fares change in January. There could be wholesale changes to do with the London Fare Zones (as they are described by DfT) at that time, like there were in January 07. Paul |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
"Charles Ellson" wrote in message ... On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:16:48 -0000, "Peter Masson" wrote: "Ken" wrote But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the "Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change. Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County) between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere? Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in view of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction. The specific references to "North London Railway" and the map on:- http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ground-map.pdf would seem to exclude Southern and the non-DC route from Euston to Watford. That doesn't necessarily follow at all. If you drew a map of the Metropolitan line without showing the Chiltern route, would that allow an inference to be drawn about PAYG availability on Chiltern? Paul |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 15:32:40 -0000, "Paul Scott"
wrote: "Charles Ellson" wrote in message .. . On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:16:48 -0000, "Peter Masson" wrote: "Ken" wrote But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the "Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change. Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County) between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere? Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in view of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction. The specific references to "North London Railway" and the map on:- http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ground-map.pdf would seem to exclude Southern and the non-DC route from Euston to Watford. That doesn't necessarily follow at all. If you drew a map of the Metropolitan line without showing the Chiltern route, would that allow an inference to be drawn about PAYG availability on Chiltern? An inference is not always a certainty either way (and it depends on the actual purpose of such a map). However, the information so far published refers specifically to the "North London Railway" which does not include the Southern franchise to/from Watford Junction. AFAIAA that franchise is already a specific exemption from PAYG and appears to remain so in the absence of further advice of any change. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007, Peter Masson wrote:
As it is, if you have to make several journeys by bus and/or tube in a day, Oyster PAYG is what you want, but add just one National Rail journey on which Oyster PAYG is not accepted, and you need a paper ODTC - but if you hold a Railcard you may want the paper ODTC anyway (but only at weekends if it is a Network Card), even if you are not going to use National Rail. How about if you could use pre-pay to buy an ODTC, and the way it worked is that it just charged you enough to take you up to your cap. Then you could roam around on PAYG, and convert to paper if you decided you wanted a go on a train. The process might also nullify the accumulated journeys on the card, to avoid people fraudulently getting lots of free travelcards from one oyster. Or it could print the travelcard saying "only valid with Oyster card number such-and-such". tom -- If it ain't broke, open it up and see what makes it so bloody special. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On 7 Nov, 17:10, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 15:32:40 -0000, "Paul Scott" wrote: "Charles Ellson" wrote in message .. . On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:16:48 -0000, "Peter Masson" wrote: "Ken" wrote But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the "Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change. Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County) between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere? Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in view of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction. The specific references to "North London Railway" and the map on:- http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ground-map.pdf would seem to exclude Southern and the non-DC route from Euston to Watford. That doesn't necessarily follow at all. If you drew a map of the Metropolitan line without showing the Chiltern route, would that allow an inference to be drawn about PAYG availability on Chiltern? An inference is not always a certainty either way (and it depends on the actual purpose of such a map). However, the information so far published refers specifically to the "North London Railway" which does not include the Southern franchise to/from Watford Junction. AFAIAA that franchise is already a specific exemption from PAYG and appears to remain so in the absence of further advice of any change.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Presumably the specific exemption for Oyster PAYG on Southern you are referring to is that Oyster PAYG cannot be used on the Southern trains which stop at Harrow & Wealdstone and Wembley Central even though Oyster PAYG is valid on the DC line over that stretch or are you thinking of something else? It doesn't note that on the map showing where Oyster PAYG is valid http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...YG-Diagram.pdf Is there an Oyster card reader on the mainline platforms at Wembley Central? Wembley Central mainline is not a nice place to wait and one of the few stations where you are only allowed onto the platform when the train is due (a member of staff unlocking the door when the train is due). Jonathan |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
Alan Osborn wrote:
How far out of London can you buy a combined London return fare inclusive of a Travelcard. When I travel to London from Oxford I always ask for a London Travelcard, that gives me a return fare to London plus an all zone travelcard. I'm not sure for a day Travelcard, but I believe GNER used to sell monthlies from Berwick-upon-Tweed. They probably still do but I don't feel like checking the NFM right now. -- Michael Hoffman |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Wed, Nov 07, 2007 at 03:29:06PM -0000, Paul Scott wrote:
Another pertinent point is that NR fares change in January. There could be wholesale changes to do with the London Fare Zones (as they are described by DfT) at that time, like there were in January 07. I'd hardly call a handful of stations changing zone "wholesale changes". -- David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic All principles of gravity are negated by fear -- Cartoon Law V |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
"David Cantrell" wrote in message k... On Wed, Nov 07, 2007 at 03:29:06PM -0000, Paul Scott wrote: Another pertinent point is that NR fares change in January. There could be wholesale changes to do with the London Fare Zones (as they are described by DfT) at that time, like there were in January 07. I'd hardly call a handful of stations changing zone "wholesale changes". Thats why I included 'to do with' - for instance if NR zonal fares became the same as TfL's in Jan 08, that to me would be 'wholesale changes'. Despite last January's announcement, NR fares for point to point journeys currently vary depending if rail only, or rail and tube are used, and are issued with the station names printed on them. It is highly likely that any major changes to the zone map such as 1-9 replacing 1-6 and A-D will happen coincidentally with the NR annual change date, because the zones are agreed by DfT not TfL alone. I was also trying to illustrate was why there won't be major changes to 'Overground' fares this Sunday - even if there is a special PAYG introductory fare available (as suggested) it doesn't in itself change the underlying 'rail' fares to 'LU/tube' values. Paul |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Nov 8, 1:48 pm, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 15:44:48 -0800, wrote: On 7 Nov, 17:10, Charles Ellson wrote: On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 15:32:40 -0000, "Paul Scott" wrote: "Charles Ellson" wrote in message .. . On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:16:48 -0000, "Peter Masson" wrote: "Ken" wrote But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the "Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change. Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County) between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere? Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in view of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction. The specific references to "North London Railway" and the map on:- http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ground-map.pdf would seem to exclude Southern and the non-DC route from Euston to Watford. That doesn't necessarily follow at all. If you drew a map of the Metropolitan line without showing the Chiltern route, would that allow an inference to be drawn about PAYG availability on Chiltern? An inference is not always a certainty either way (and it depends on the actual purpose of such a map). However, the information so far published refers specifically to the "North London Railway" which does not include the Southern franchise to/from Watford Junction. AFAIAA that franchise is already a specific exemption from PAYG and appears to remain so in the absence of further advice of any change.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Presumably the specific exemption for Oyster PAYG on Southern you are referring to is that Oyster PAYG cannot be used on the Southern trains which stop at Harrow & Wealdstone and Wembley Central even though Oyster PAYG is valid on the DC line over that stretch or are you thinking of something else? No it isnt. PAYG is unavailable on the WLL (see p.11 onhttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/tickets/Get_most_out_of_Oyster...) and using that route requires use of a Travelcard or a non-zonal ticket. This prevents use of PAYG from Kensington to Wembley Central (Southern), Clapham Junction or Willesden Junction (Vomitlink). snip Ahh, the delights of changing operators! From Sunday, the WLL will be included in PAYG as all the former Silverlink Metro routes will be from day 1. Currently, however, it is unclear as to whether Oyster PAYG is / will be available from Harrow & Wealdstone to Wembley Central on the Southern trains. It certainly is available on both the DC trains and the silverlink county trains that stop at both stations (only a couple of night trains for county). If you read the TFL leaflet referred to, it implies that Southern would accept PAYG as operators are not mentioned on page 11, however, the National Railway website only states Silverlink. The map referred to earlier in the thread applied to the post 11th November situation, as London Overground are shown as running the trains, not national rail. Whether the extension of PAYG to Clapham Junction for the London Overground trains will mean that Southern will also accept it from Harrow - Clapham remains to be seen. Personally, I think that they will take it, as London Overground will be the main service provider for the route and it will be quite difficult to stop people using PAYG on Southern trains between Olympia and West Brompton and through to Clapham Junction. |
London Overground from 11 Nov 2007
On Thu, 8 Nov 2007, Paul Scott wrote:
"David Cantrell" wrote in message k... On Wed, Nov 07, 2007 at 03:29:06PM -0000, Paul Scott wrote: Another pertinent point is that NR fares change in January. There could be wholesale changes to do with the London Fare Zones (as they are described by DfT) at that time, like there were in January 07. I'd hardly call a handful of stations changing zone "wholesale changes". Thats why I included 'to do with' - for instance if NR zonal fares became the same as TfL's in Jan 08, that to me would be 'wholesale changes'. More 'retail changes', surely? *runs away* tom -- Everyone in the world is doing something without me. |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 12:15 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2006 LondonBanter.co.uk