Eurostar's south London farewell
 

Today is the last day of Eurostar trains traversing the tracks of
south London heading for Waterloo, as tomorrow they'll switch to using
the new, boring route through the new CTRL tunnels underneath east
London (apols for rolling that pun out for the hundredth time). I felt
a little ode to their passing - or indeed imminent lack of passing -
was in order.

The new route will no longer afford arriving passengers a window,
however brief and partial it may be, across London. So Eurostar
passengers will be denied any glimpse of the metropolis into which
they are arriving until they emerge just before St. Pancras station
(where they'll get a good vie of a cement works!).


-----
Let's start in Bromley for our Waterloo-bound E* journey, not least
because so far the curios have been thwarted in their attempts to
window gaze into back gardens by the large wooden fencing, erected to
provide a sound barrier. Bromley South will be the first really busy
London station the window gazers will see - thronging with commuters,
or perhaps pre-Christmas shoppers, or even those holding a bucket-and-
spade heading for the seaside. Onwards we go, passing Beckenham
Junction - with perhaps a snatched view of a tram disappearing into
the suburbs to the left, glimpsed over greenfingered folk dutifully
tending to their allotments.

Passing through Penge the observant will be able to see the Victorian
terraces of this suburb before... darkness, as the train disappears
into the long tunnel under Upper Sydenham, before emerging by Sydenham
Hill station. Despite entering the edge of inner London observers
can't fail to note the green and leafy nature of the surrounds. Those
with eyes to the right may see schoolboys at Dulwich College
practising in the nets or perfecting their drop-kicks on the sports
field in front of the Cathedralesque school buildings.

Then, as the line rises on to an embankment, perhaps a quick view of
the spacious gardens and swimming pools of large houses before
crossing the busy and probably congested South Circular road,
whereupon a glance to the right through the trees might reveal Belair
Park - perhaps inhabited by people enjoying the steam-engine powered
fair ground rides of the visiting Carter's Steam Fair.

On high ground now, as we will be for almost all of the rest of the
journey, we pass more sports grounds with clubhouses to the right.
Then we pass underneath an even higher railway line supported by tall
arches before coming to Herne Hill. A glance to the left will reveal
Brockwell Park, possibly packed with people enjoying the Lambeth
Country Show, which features more conventionally powered fair ground
rides - but steam is there too, in the form of traction engines and a
steam driven wood cutter, as well as Falcons and jousting Knights. The
first high-rise flats are also starting to appear now too.

The train progresses on into Brixton - a glance to the right might
expose the affront to humanity that is the so-called Brixton Barrier
Block, built with tiny windows on one side to shield it from an urban
motorway that never materialised. But eyes turned left will briefly be
able to make out the bustling street markets along Electric Avenue and
and Atlantic Road before the train crosses Brixton Road, likely to be
a sea of red buses, where the first Underground roundel belonging to
Brixton tube station can be seen. And that bronzed commuter stood on
the platform at Brixton looks like he's been waiting a while.

A few stolen glimpses of the distant central London skyline are
possible for those with eyes right, whilst those staring out to the
left might catch pub-goers enjoying a pint or three in the small beer
garden to the rear of the Duke Of Edinburgh pub. However from now on
the line is no longer just double track, it's four or five track, and
hence views are more likely to be obscured by passing trains, such as
the two-car class 456 performing its parochial South London Line
duties, or other longer trains heading further out.

Coming into Clapham we can see another Underground roundel, this time
that of Clapham North station, before passing over the busy Clapham
High Street. Perhaps there are some wistful passengers observing the
Eurostar just the other side of the wall at the station of the same
name, waiting for a train so as to travel on a somewhat less epic
journey.

Onwards past Wandsworth Road station with its old overbridge, which if
its a nice day (and perhaps even if not) may well be inhabited by some
men with notebooks. Is that guy taking a picture of us?! On past
Factory Junction signalbox, and whilst there isn't a factory in sight
there is a car breakers yard, and something called Bishops Move - have
these protestant Bishops so embraced the work-ethic that they've gone
into the furniture removal business themselves?

The train starts to veer off to the right, whilst to the left there is
the enormous, disused Battersea Power station. We're now alongside
another different mainline, where the trains now carry different
colours (but some of your fellow passengers recall that they didn't
back in '94). Above the low-rise business parks surrounding the line
we get a better view of central London to our left, whilst the sprawl
of south London continues across the vista to the right, and dotted
all around there are clumps of tower blocks reaching up to the sky.

Onwards we cross Wandsworth Road again, perhaps once again seeing the
speeding motorcyclist we saw just a minute or so earlier, and then as
we come through Vauxhall station, to our left there is something that
looks as if it could be a ski-slope, but is in fact a bus station. And
then there is the Gotham City-esque headquarters of James Bond's
secret service, then a glance of the famous River Thames, and perhaps,
if you're quick, the Tate Modern on the other side.

The train is slowing down now, and the big ferris wheel that they call
the London Eye can see seen, whilst and the observant might catch a
glimpse of of the tower of Lambeth Palace to the left. Accompanied by
the sound of nashing Gallic teeth (including, perhaps, our own?) we
come to a halt at Waterloo station underneath Grimshaw's curved glass
roof, and, since the brutalist County Hall Island block that used to
get in the way has recently been razed, we can enjoy a distant view of
Big Ben and Parliament, though in the background we can hear a pedant
murmuring something about St Stephen's tower, but they'd be wrong as
it is in fact the Clock Tower.

Then down the ramp and out of the controlled area, and into the chaos
of London town. A very short walk away is the riverside, and whilst
most scurry for Taxis or the Underground, or head up in to the
mainline station - perhaps thronging with demob happy friday evening
commuters - a few stroll out across the road to walk by the river.
-----


And so endeth what I now fully realise is a pretty naff story! I'll
spare giving you an alternative version which follows the Eurostar
along its alternate route via the Catford loop line, though I will say
that the skyline views that way are arguably better - the stretch of
line between Nunhead and Peckham Rye offers the sight of the towers of
Canary Wharf in the distance, before one has a glimpse of another side
of London life as the train crosses over busy Rye Lane in Peckham, and
further along the line from around Loughborough Junction to Brixton
the skyline of central London can be seen in between the tower
blocks.

I'm sure I'm not the only one to have been cheered seeing the Eurostar
making it's way across south London from the other side of the glass,
its passing presence being signalled by sound before sight as the
distinctive noise of the purring electric motors approaches - a noise
I once heard memorably described by an old lady as sounding like a
1,000 hairdriers all blowing at once! It has provided a bit of
romantic wonder to onlookers, whether they be on adjacent trains,
stations or just near the railway line - where are the people in the
sleek never-ending white and yellow train going to, or coming from...
a romantic Parisian liason, a far-away land, a first visit to London,
or an escape away from it...

I distinctly remember an acquaintance telling me of how, en route to a
professional exam, he saw a passing Eurostar and yearned to be on it,
rather than waiting for his everyday train to take him to his exam
room. Yet of course the Eurostar has been an everyday train, passing
every day through the south of the capital - and indeed, empty,
through the west, along the West London Line en-route to and from the
fabulously named North Pole. But from tomorrow no longer - instead it
will be speeding through the deep, and arriving at the magnificent St.
Pancras.

But for south London, it is time to say - au revoir, Eurostar.

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
ups.com...
Today is the last day of Eurostar trains traversing the tracks of
south London heading for Waterloo, as tomorrow they'll switch to using
the new, boring route through the new CTRL tunnels underneath east
London (apols for rolling that pun out for the hundredth time). I felt
a little ode to their passing - or indeed imminent lack of passing -
was in order.

The new route will no longer afford arriving passengers a window,
however brief and partial it may be, across London. So Eurostar
passengers will be denied any glimpse of the metropolis into which
they are arriving until they emerge just before St. Pancras station
(where they'll get a good vie of a cement works!).

At least they'll have the spectacular view of the Barlow trainshed, the
infamous champagne bar and the iconic £1m Meeting Place statue. Outside,
there is a great view of Euston Road notwithstanding the wonderful array of
fast food outlets!

When will the internal route from the LUL Western ticket hall to St Pancras
(Eurostar and Domestic) open?

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

That was really good; it deserves to be in something like the South
London Press.

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

On 13 Nov, 17:00, Ar wrote:
At least Eurostar will get less people using the service. No matter
what you say, for day trippers from the continent, St.Pancras may as
well be on the backside of the moon.

I bet you ten thousand pounds that you're talking complete and utter
rubbish, and that E* visitor numbers will be higher in the year from
November 14 2007 to November 13 2008 than in the year November 14 2006
to November 13 2007.

My contact details are below, if you're shy about accepting the bet
online.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

"Mizter T" wrote

Let's start in Bromley for our Waterloo-bound E* journey,

Excellent, though you might have started at Southfleet Junction, not least
because Southfleet Junction to Fawkham Junction and the Linford Street curve
are the two sections where it will no longer be possible to travel by train
at all. Among the highlights of the journey between Southfleet and Bromley
are the viaducts at Horton Kirby and St Mary Cray, and the tangle of the
Chislehurst junctions.

Peter
(old enough to have watched the Golden Arrow and Night Ferry pass through
Blackbrook Lane bridge at Bickley)

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

In article , Ar
writes

At least Eurostar will get less people using the service. No matter
what you say, for day trippers from the continent, St.Pancras may as
well be on the backside of the moon.

But look what happened the South Bank in the years since Eurostar
arrived - the wheel, the aquarium, er, McDonalds, etc. Oh, yeah, the
Tate, City Hall and the wobbly bridge, too. Just imagine how the St
Pancras area might be transformed in years to come.
--
congokid
Eating out in London? Read my tips...
http://congokid.com

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

The people of north London were ****ed that south London at last had
one decent transport link, but no, north London HAD to have that too,
leaving south London with no decent transport links again.

At least Eurostar will get less people using the service. No matter
what you say, for day trippers from the continent, St.Pancras may as
well be on the backside of the moon.

The original plans were to build a tunnel to Waterloo and keep that as
the terminal, but I think it was the borough of Lewisham that didn't
want that, which resulted in the current north London route.

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

"Ar" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:00:55 +0000, Ar scribed:

I'd rather see the city as you ride through it, then tunnels. The new
Eurostar route is about as interesting as catching some overground
trains from Brussels Zuid, southbound.

I meant northbound of course! The Eurostar comes from the south into
Brussels.

Anyway, for visually unintersting bordom, I think this persons video
just about sums up the new Eurostar route.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=A0GRF6d8EAg

Yep that's about as good as it gets... But its even worse when you have to
*walk* that route - Well the tunnelled sections anyway...

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

"Toby" wrote in message ...

When will the internal route from the LUL Western ticket hall to St
Pancras (Eurostar and Domestic) open?

Hopefully overnight tonight - I'm hoping to use that route tomorrow...

Paul S

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

In uk.railway Paul Scott wrote:
Hopefully overnight tonight - I'm hoping to use that route tomorrow...

There are no obstructions the other side of the doors, so there's no reason
it shouldn't be open tomorrow assuming all the shop fitting out inside has
finished.

Theo

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

"Ar" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:00:55 +0000, Ar scribed:

I'd rather see the city as you ride through it, then tunnels. The new
Eurostar route is about as interesting as catching some overground
trains from Brussels Zuid, southbound.

I meant northbound of course! The Eurostar comes from the south into
Brussels.

Anyway, for visually unintersting bordom, I think this persons video
just about sums up the new Eurostar route.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=A0GRF6d8EAg

But this is not the Channel Tunnel (the 2nd one) but, it has a 373 going
through it. Which tunnel is it?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sf7n_pOzFY4

KW

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

On 13 Nov, 21:19, "Ken Ward" wrote:
"Ar" wrote in message

.. .

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:00:55 +0000, Ar scribed:

I'd rather see the city as you ride through it, then tunnels. The new
Eurostar route is about as interesting as catching some overground
trains from Brussels Zuid, southbound.

I meant northbound of course! The Eurostar comes from the south into
Brussels.

Anyway, for visually unintersting bordom, I think this persons video
just about sums up the new Eurostar route.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=A0GRF6d8EAg

But this is not the Channel Tunnel (the 2nd one) but, it has a 373 going
through it. Which tunnel is it?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sf7n_pOzFY4

KW

It's a so-called GNERstar, exiting a tunnel at Hadley Wood? Though
perhaps not.

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 21:19:58 GMT, "Ken Ward"
wrote:


"Ar" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:00:55 +0000, Ar scribed:

I'd rather see the city as you ride through it, then tunnels. The new
Eurostar route is about as interesting as catching some overground
trains from Brussels Zuid, southbound.

I meant northbound of course! The Eurostar comes from the south into
Brussels.

Anyway, for visually unintersting bordom, I think this persons video
just about sums up the new Eurostar route.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=A0GRF6d8EAg

But this is not the Channel Tunnel (the 2nd one) but, it has a 373 going
through it. Which tunnel is it?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sf7n_pOzFY4

Hadley Wood?

KW

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

Am Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:31:15 UTC, schrieb "Peter Masson"
auf uk.railway :

Southfleet Junction to Fawkham Junction and the Linford Street curve
are the two sections where it will no longer be possible to travel by train
at all.

Why that? Why shouldn't it be possible to use the Southfleet
Junction to Fawkham Junction link any more?


Curious,
L.W.

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
ups.com...
Today is the last day of Eurostar trains traversing the tracks of
south London heading for Waterloo, as tomorrow they'll switch to using
the new, boring route through the new CTRL tunnels underneath east
London (apols for rolling that pun out for the hundredth time). I felt
a little ode to their passing - or indeed imminent lack of passing -
was in order.

The new route will no longer afford arriving passengers a window,
however brief and partial it may be, across London. So Eurostar
passengers will be denied any glimpse of the metropolis into which
they are arriving until they emerge just before St. Pancras station
(where they'll get a good vie of a cement works!).


Excellent journalism snipped.

You should apply to the BBC. In their well researched article about the move
I found:
"Waterloo's award-winning terminal is expected to be used to take the burden
off existing services to Surrey."
Compared to the DfT view reported lower down in the same article:
"We're also looking at how Waterloo can be used to expand capacity right
across the South Western franchise."
They don't see very far from their Ivory Towers do they...

Paul S

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

Am Tue, 13 Nov 2007 21:19:58 UTC, schrieb "Ken Ward"
auf uk.railway :

But this is not the Channel Tunnel (the 2nd one) but, it has a 373 going
through it. Which tunnel is it?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sf7n_pOzFY4

How about Hadleywood?

see http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=NPUae4pxPeQ


Cheers,
L.W.

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

In message , at 21:19:58 on
Tue, 13 Nov 2007, Ken Ward remarked:
But this is not the Channel Tunnel (the 2nd one) but, it has a 373 going
through it. Which tunnel is it?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sf7n_pOzFY4

GNER trains, and a station by the tunnel mouth - Hadley Wood?
--
Roland Perry

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

In message
Ar wrote:

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 09:26:59 -0800, sweek scribed:

The original plans were to build a tunnel to Waterloo and keep that as
the terminal, but I think it was the borough of Lewisham that didn't
want that, which resulted in the current north London route.

If you remember where you got that info from I'd appreciate it. Never
heard of one borough objecting, but then again, it was a Labour
borough at the time.

One story that went around was that the tories tried to route the CTRL
through safe labour seats on the grounds that it was better to annoy people
who weren't going to vote for you anyway.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

"Lüko Willms" wrote in message
...
Am Tue, 13 Nov 2007 21:19:58 UTC, schrieb "Ken Ward"
auf uk.railway :

But this is not the Channel Tunnel (the 2nd one) but, it has a 373 going
through it. Which tunnel is it?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sf7n_pOzFY4

How about Hadleywood?

see http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=NPUae4pxPeQ

Much better video, with a good soundtrack.

KW

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

"Lüko Willms" wrote

Why that? Why shouldn't it be possible to use the Southfleet
Junction to Fawkham Junction link any more?

There won't be any booked trains. After they take the shoes off the E*s the
only trains which will be physically capable of using it (dual voltage and
HS1 signalling) will be the Southeastern 395s (Javelin/Hitachi/Bullet
according to preference) and Southeastern have no plans to use the route.
It's likely to be lifted, though it is also likely to remain in railway
ownership - AIUI the high voltage feeder cable to Fawkham substation runs
along it.

Most of it is the route of the former Gravesend West branch, closed to
passengers in the early 1950s, though freight ran to Gravesend West until
the mid 1960s, and coal as far as Southfleet for the Northfleet cement works
until 1974. IIRC the track for this was not actually lifted until work began
to rebuild the line for E*s. There is a slight deviation at the Fawkham
Junction end, ostensibly to ease the curve so that Es could take the
junction and the curve at 65 mph.

Peter

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...

There won't be any booked trains. After they take the shoes off the E*s
the
only trains which will be physically capable of using it (dual voltage and
HS1 signalling) will be the Southeastern 395s (Javelin/Hitachi/Bullet
according to preference) and Southeastern have no plans to use the route.

What about class 92s? Any potential need for them to go that way?

D

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:00:55 +0000, Ar wrote:

At least Eurostar will get less people using the service. No matter
what you say, for day trippers from the continent, St.Pancras may as
well be on the backside of the moon.

I'm prepared to be proved wrong, but would expect that for a very high
proportion of Eurostar passengers the change in terminal won't make
enough difference to precipitate choosing a different transport mode
in place of Eurostar. Most would use Eurostar from any location
that's in zone 1, and has bus and tube connections. I shall miss the
approach through Vauxhall alongside the river, and the international
station at Waterloo, but will continue to use Eurostar nevertheless.

Martin

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

In message
"Dave" wrote:



"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...

There won't be any booked trains. After they take the shoes off the E*s
the only trains which will be physically capable of using it (dual
voltage and HS1 signalling) will be the Southeastern 395s
(Javelin/Hitachi/Bullet according to preference) and Southeastern have no
plans to use the route.

What about class 92s? Any potential need for them to go that way?


They wouldn't be using HS1 anyway would they?

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

In article , Ar wrote:
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:00:55 +0000, Ar scribed:

I'd rather see the city as you ride through it, then tunnels. The new
Eurostar route is about as interesting as catching some overground
trains from Brussels Zuid, southbound.

I meant northbound of course! The Eurostar comes from the south into
Brussels.

Anyway, for visually unintersting bordom, I think this persons video
just about sums up the new Eurostar route.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=A0GRF6d8EAg

The view of the QEII bridge is very impressive, which you don't really
see in the video.

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
In message
"Dave" wrote:

What about class 92s? Any potential need for them to go that way?


They wouldn't be using HS1 anyway would they?

ISTR that at present 92s don't have their signalling configured for HS1. If
any freight is to use HS1, this will have to be done, and 92s will haul any
freight on HS1 between Dollands Moor and Rainham. They *could* use
Southfleet to Fawkham if it's still open, though I can't really see the
point, as freight for south and west London (and Willesden/WCML, at least if
Barking to Gospel Oak doesn't get electrified) might as well use the
existing route via Maidstone East.

Peter

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

Am Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:56:38 UTC, schrieb Ar auf
uk.railway :

Anyway, for visually unintersting bordom, I think this persons video
just about sums up the new Eurostar route.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=A0GRF6d8EAg

The view is exclusively to the "outer" side, if I may say so, i.e.
away from the central parts of London. No idea how the view to the
other side might look like.

I found strange that I could see tracks to the left of the train --
the line is supposed to be double track, and on Great Britain trains
run normally on the left track. Was this video taken on one of the
test runs with volunteers? Well, after the line is opened officially
for commercial traffic, we will see more imagery and videos.


Cheers,
L.W.

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

Am Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:13:26 UTC, schrieb "Peter Masson"
auf uk.railway :

ISTR that at present 92s don't have their signalling configured for HS1. If
any freight is to use HS1, this will have to be done, and 92s will haul any
freight on HS1 between Dollands Moor and Rainham.

You mean the "Ripple lane" freight exit just short of the Eastern
portal of the East London tunnel, right? And they would start at
Calais-Fréthun rather than at the island side.

Why and how would the Class 92 locomotives have to be "configured
for HS1"? They do support TVM and KVB, don't they?


Cheers,
L.W.

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

In message
"Peter Masson" wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
In message
"Dave" wrote:

What about class 92s? Any potential need for them to go that way?


They wouldn't be using HS1 anyway would they?

[snip]
They *could* use Southfleet to Fawkham if it's still open, though I can't
really see the point, as freight for south and west London (and
Willesden/WCML, at least if Barking to Gospel Oak doesn't get electrified)
might as well use the existing route via Maidstone East.


That was my thinking.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

Offramp wrote:
That was really good; it deserves to be in something like the South
London Press.

The South London Press said "****in' Channel Tunnel Rail Link ... Europe cut
off".

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

On 13 Nov, 21:26, Ar wrote:
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 09:26:59 -0800, sweek scribed:

The original plans were to build a tunnel to Waterloo and keep that as
the terminal, but I think it was the borough of Lewisham that didn't
want that, which resulted in the current north London route.

If you remember where you got that info from I'd appreciate it. Never
heard of one borough objecting, but then again, it was a Labour
borough at the time.

It was certainly planned to go underground through South London. In
the small park just north of Peckham Rye station a public tennis court
was removed in preparation for the site to be a vent/construction
access point against some local opposition. It has now been grassed
over. That would be in Southwark, not Lewisham, however.

I can't remember which scheme that was, there have been so many!

MaxB

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

On 14 Nov, 11:25, MaxB wrote:
On 13 Nov, 21:26, Ar wrote:

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 09:26:59 -0800, sweek scribed:

The original plans were to build a tunnel to Waterloo and keep that as
the terminal, but I think it was the borough of Lewisham that didn't
want that, which resulted in the current north London route.

If you remember where you got that info from I'd appreciate it. Never
heard of one borough objecting, but then again, it was a Labour
borough at the time.

It was certainly planned to go underground through South London. In
the small park just north of Peckham Rye station a public tennis court
was removed in preparation for the site to be a vent/construction
access point against some local opposition. It has now been grassed
over. That would be in Southwark, not Lewisham, however.

I can't remember which scheme that was, there have been so many!

MaxB

I think there was a whole lot more planned for that site - BTW it's
Warwick Gardens you're talking of (off Lyndhurst Way). AIUI several
adjacent houses (if not the whole row) on Lyndhurst Road were bought
using compulsory purchase powers by BR and were to be demolished to
make way for this shaft site. I don't know what the exact plan was,
but if I was to take a guess I'd suggest the idea was to use the site
for a major working shaft for use in constructing the tunnels, which
would of course have led to a pretty significant disturbance to the
surrounding residential area.

I certainly recall the fuss about it at the time, and the large number
of "Sink the Link" posters (complete with the BR double-arrows symbol
crossed out) that were all around the area. However back then I didn't
follow the various happenings closely, but now, years later, I'm quite
curious about the whole issue of the CTRL under south London that
never was. I feel a delve into the relevant local studies libraries is
on the cards.

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
ups.com...
On 14 Nov, 11:25, MaxB wrote:
On 13 Nov, 21:26, Ar wrote:

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 09:26:59 -0800, sweek scribed:

The original plans were to build a tunnel to Waterloo and keep that
as
the terminal, but I think it was the borough of Lewisham that didn't
want that, which resulted in the current north London route.

If you remember where you got that info from I'd appreciate it. Never
heard of one borough objecting, but then again, it was a Labour
borough at the time.

It was certainly planned to go underground through South London. In
the small park just north of Peckham Rye station a public tennis court
was removed in preparation for the site to be a vent/construction
access point against some local opposition. It has now been grassed
over. That would be in Southwark, not Lewisham, however.

I can't remember which scheme that was, there have been so many!

MaxB

I think there was a whole lot more planned for that site - BTW it's
Warwick Gardens you're talking of (off Lyndhurst Way). AIUI several
adjacent houses (if not the whole row) on Lyndhurst Road were bought
using compulsory purchase powers by BR and were to be demolished to
make way for this shaft site. I don't know what the exact plan was,
but if I was to take a guess I'd suggest the idea was to use the site
for a major working shaft for use in constructing the tunnels, which
would of course have led to a pretty significant disturbance to the
surrounding residential area.

I certainly recall the fuss about it at the time, and the large number
of "Sink the Link" posters (complete with the BR double-arrows symbol
crossed out) that were all around the area. However back then I didn't
follow the various happenings closely, but now, years later, I'm quite
curious about the whole issue of the CTRL under south London that
never was. I feel a delve into the relevant local studies libraries is
on the cards.

The idea was to have a junction in tunnel near there, with a portal in
Warwick Gardens where the Waterloo link would have surfaced and joined the
Chatham lines to access Brixton and Linford Street curve.

The flats opposite, on the site of the original South London Line depot (in
the angle between the Denmark Hill and Tulse Hill lines) were fairly new at
the time, and the owners were up in arms because they had just completed
their purchase when the plans for Warwick Gardens were first announced.

Peter

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

"Lüko Willms" wrote

Why and how would the Class 92 locomotives have to be "configured
for HS1"? They do support TVM and KVB, don't they?

I think they only have it configured for the Channel Tunnel, which uses
different speed bands from HS1 or LGV. ISTR that when one freight train was
allowed to use the CTRL it had to do so under special regulations as it was
effectively unsignalled.

Peter

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...

"Lüko Willms" wrote

Why and how would the Class 92 locomotives have to be "configured
for HS1"? They do support TVM and KVB, don't they?

I think they only have it configured for the Channel Tunnel, which uses
different speed bands from HS1 or LGV. ISTR that when one freight train
was
allowed to use the CTRL it had to do so under special regulations as it
was
effectively unsignalled.

Peter


The TVM configurations are specific to route and stock, as they include the
braking curves for given items of stock under given conditions. In some
instances, a temporary change in braking characteristics may be accomodated
by following a given set of speed restrictions viz the TVM indications shown
in cab. A shuttle rake with a certain number of wagons whose
electro-pneumatic brakes are isolated might only be allowed to travel at 110
kph when the cab indication is 140 kph, for example.
There is also an element of 'route-barring', such that a Shuttle routed in
error towards LGV Nord at the French Portal, or a E* routed towards the UK
terminal loop, would receive a 'stopping sequence' on the in-cab display.
When such a movement has to be carried out- for example when there were
three Class 92 hauled freights conveying out-of-gauge wagons to the UK for
road transhipment- the options are either to give the driver a 'FREP' ( a
numbered message which has to be read out by the signaller and repeated back
by the driver) for each signal or to class the entire route as a work-site
and authorise the driver to proceed at 'marche-a-vue' (a speed at which the
train may be stopped short of any obstruction, with a normal maximum of 40
kph, IIRC) as far as a given 'repere' or other stopping point. Neither is
suitable for 'normal' operation, as you may well imagine. The several
freights that had to use CTRL1 due to an engineering possession on the
normal route via Sandling (3rd/4th April 2004, see
http://www.ews-railway.co.uk/cmsystem/news_article.asp?guid={1550A404-25E1-4384-962C-4887BF3C7C09})
were 66-hauled,I believe, as various CTRL works meant there was no juice
from Dolland's Moor.
The 92s do not have KVB, unless some of those acquired by Europorte have
been so fitted- I shall enquire- but do have BR AWS/TPWS.
Should anyone seek a more in-depth explanation of TVM, I would recommend
page 80-83 of Brian Perren's TGV Handbook.
regards
Brian

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

On 13 Nov, 22:29, Ar wrote:
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 21:44:21 -0000, Paul Scott scribed:

Excellent journalism snipped.

You should apply to the BBC.

Tallent would be wasted in the BBC.

But they might provide speling lessons.

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

On Nov 14, 7:21 am, "BH Williams" wrote:

Why and how would the Class 92 locomotives have to be "configured
for HS1"? They do support TVM and KVB, don't they?

The 92s do not have KVB, unless some of those acquired by Europorte have
been so fitted

SNCF allegedly found it prohibitivbely expensive and there were space
considerations to KVB fit 92s.

An alternative to SNCF engineering might be cheaper and make it fit -
but so far I've not heard of any plans to do this.

--
Nick

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007, BH Williams wrote:

"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...

"Lüko Willms" wrote

Why and how would the Class 92 locomotives have to be "configured for
HS1"? They do support TVM and KVB, don't they?

I think they only have it configured for the Channel Tunnel, which uses
different speed bands from HS1 or LGV. ISTR that when one freight train
was allowed to use the CTRL it had to do so under special regulations
as it was effectively unsignalled.

The TVM configurations are specific to route and stock, as they include
the braking curves for given items of stock under given conditions.
[...] the options are either to give the driver a 'FREP' ( a numbered
message which has to be read out by the signaller and repeated back by
the driver) for each signal or to class the entire route as a work-site
and authorise the driver to proceed at 'marche-a-vue' (a speed at which
the train may be stopped short of any obstruction, with a normal maximum
of 40 kph, IIRC) as far as a given 'repere' or other stopping point.

This is one of the things that absolutely baffles me about the automated
signalling systems that are being deployed now - why is it the signalling
system that makes decisions about how fast a train should go, and not the
train? The signals should just keep track of each train, set of points,
buffer stop and other thing to avoid running into, and tell the trains
where they are (and tell them about any specific speed restrictions, too).
Computers on the trains can then use their knowledge of the train's
performance to calculate an appropriate speed. Situations like the above
are not exactly unprecedented, and the signalling system should have been
designed to deal with them.

tom

--
The literature, especially in recent years, has come to resemble `The
Blob', growing and consuming everything in its path, and Steve McQueen
isn't going to come to our rescue. -- The Mole

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

Anyone any idea why a Eurostar would be passing through Queenstown
Road while I was there yesterday?

Never seen one there before

see
http://tonyhunter2814.fotopic.net/p46649528.html
for photo

Tony

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

"D7666" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Nov 14, 7:21 am, "BH Williams" wrote:

Why and how would the Class 92 locomotives have to be "configured
for HS1"? They do support TVM and KVB, don't they?

The 92s do not have KVB, unless some of those acquired by Europorte have
been so fitted

SNCF allegedly found it prohibitivbely expensive and there were space
considerations to KVB fit 92s.

An alternative to SNCF engineering might be cheaper and make it fit -
but so far I've not heard of any plans to do this.

--
Nick

Follow on from the Newcastle Central pilots of twenty years ago, and couple
a Conflat in front with the gubbins on it..
Brian

Eurostar's south London farewell
 

tfh of Hednesford wrote:
Anyone any idea why a Eurostar would be passing through Queenstown
Road while I was there yesterday?

Never seen one there before

see
http://tonyhunter2814.fotopic.net/p46649528.html
for photo

Wasn't that the standard route from Waterloo to North Pole Depot?