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Oyster agreement
From eWatford Observer 16/11/07
Oyster agreement London Midland has agreed to accept Oyster cards on train services between Watford Junction and London Euston. In a statement received by The Watford Observer this afternoon, the train operator said: "London Midland is pleased to confirm that Oyster Pay As You Go (PAYG) can be used on its services between Watford Junction and London Euston and all intermediate stations from this Sunday (November 18th). "An agreement reached with Transport for London (TfL) means that the smartcards' will now be accepted between Watford Junction and Euston and stations in between those destinations from that date." The decision followed campaigning by commuters, The Watford Observer, Watford MP Claire Ward and representatives of other political parties in the area. On Thursday London Midland retracted a similar decision but it is thought that this one is final. Miss Ward said: "I am delighted with the decision. It is a sensible arrangement. I think that pressure exerted early on showed that we in Watford were not prepared to put with the nonsense of only being able to use Oyster on some services. "Hopefully now people will get the savings and service that they deserve." .................................................. ................................................. John Burke WRUG |
Oyster agreement
On Nov 17, 3:26 pm, burkey wrote:
"Hopefully now people will get the savings and service that they deserve." I fear that Ms Ward is mistaken if she thinks that the availability of Oyster PAYG from Watford Junction will mean lower fares. PAYG fares will be the same as for paper tickets from Watford Junction. |
Oyster agreement
"W14_Fishbourne" wrote in message ... On Nov 17, 3:26 pm, burkey wrote: "Hopefully now people will get the savings and service that they deserve." I fear that Ms Ward is mistaken if she thinks that the availability of Oyster PAYG from Watford Junction will mean lower fares. PAYG fares will be the same as for paper tickets from Watford Junction. Presumably, if they make other journeys, such as tube onwards from Euston, PAYG price-capping will give them a daily fare 50p less than a ODTC from Watford Junction. Peter |
Oyster agreement
"W14_Fishbourne" wrote in message ... On Nov 17, 3:26 pm, burkey wrote: "Hopefully now people will get the savings and service that they deserve." I fear that Ms Ward is mistaken if she thinks that the availability of Oyster PAYG from Watford Junction will mean lower fares. PAYG fares will be the same as for paper tickets from Watford Junction. Perhaps she was taken in by the earlier spiel about Oyster always being cheaper. I see the website now uses the expression 'generally cheaper'. Didn't TfL catch a cold with the Advertising Standards people a year ot two back by failing to make clear in their advertising that Oster PAYG did not automatically ensure the lowest fares, because the availability of Oyster doesn't actually remove the option to use (for example) a rail CDR, or at weekends a CDR with Network Card discount? One of the recent TfL leaflets does actually make this clear, but I'm not sure all Oyster 'bumph' is as helpful... Paul |
Oyster agreement
"burkey" wrote in message ... From eWatford Observer 16/11/07 Oyster agreement London Midland has agreed to accept Oyster cards on train services between Watford Junction and London Euston. In a statement received by The Watford Observer this afternoon, the train operator said: "London Midland is pleased to confirm that Oyster Pay As You Go (PAYG) can be used on its services between Watford Junction and London Euston and all intermediate stations from this Sunday (November 18th). I hope TfL haven't pulped all those Overground timetables, that were a week early with this decision... Paul S |
Oyster agreement
On 17 Nov, 16:03, W14_Fishbourne wrote:
On Nov 17, 3:26 pm, burkey wrote: "Hopefully now people will get the savings and service that they deserve." I fear that Ms Ward is mistaken if she thinks that the availability of Oyster PAYG from Watford Junction will mean lower fares. PAYG fares will be the same as for paper tickets from Watford Junction. How will differential fares for London Midland and London Overground journeys be achieved? By measuring the time between touching in and out between Watford Junction and Euston or by having touch pads which record a different fare for the DC and AC platforms? Jonathan |
Oyster agreement
wrote in message ... On 17 Nov, 16:03, W14_Fishbourne wrote: On Nov 17, 3:26 pm, burkey wrote: "Hopefully now people will get the savings and service that they deserve." I fear that Ms Ward is mistaken if she thinks that the availability of Oyster PAYG from Watford Junction will mean lower fares. PAYG fares will be the same as for paper tickets from Watford Junction. How will differential fares for London Midland and London Overground journeys be achieved? They don't need to be differential fares, they weren't previously with Silverlink were they? They are 'special fares' because they are outside the normal ' zones'. A bit like beyond Moor Park on the Met, but so far a bit of a secret, unless you use the single fares finder. Nothing appears to have been published yet about how capping will operate, either. Paul S |
Oyster agreement
On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 16:08:22 -0000,
Peter Masson wrote: "W14_Fishbourne" wrote in message ... On Nov 17, 3:26 pm, burkey wrote: "Hopefully now people will get the savings and service that they deserve." I fear that Ms Ward is mistaken if she thinks that the availability of Oyster PAYG from Watford Junction will mean lower fares. PAYG fares will be the same as for paper tickets from Watford Junction. Presumably, if they make other journeys, such as tube onwards from Euston, PAYG price-capping will give them a daily fare 50p less than a ODTC from Watford Junction. Or possibly not. The ODTC from Watford Junction is not a ODTC from Watford Junction but more like an all zones TC plus a (return) boundary Z6 to WJ extension (I don't know what the situation is with the stations between Hatch End and Watford High Street) When you exit WJ with your ODTC the barrier eats the ticket and you cannot use it again. While it's never affected me, there are cases where it would be cheaper to buy a ODTC from Watford Junction plus a return to Harrow and Wealdstone and then be careful which ticket you used when you exited WJ for the first time if you were making multiple trips into London during the day. I don't see how they can possibly charge differential fares between WJ and Euston depending on the train you took. It's possible to do a WJ to H&W on Southern plus H&W to Euston on LM currently and, theoretically at least, if one or other train is slightly delayed to allow the connection to work perfectly, manage the journey as fast or faster than the average person manages the WJ to Euston non-stop service. I also always sit at the extreme rear of the train going into Euston (I've got my Brompton with me and by sitting at the extreme rear I'm not trying to unfold the bike while people are walking past me and I don't end up in the middle of the crowds trying to get through the barriers at Euston) and this probably adds five minute onto the journey as compared to someone who stands in exactly the right point to run for the barriers when the train arrives at Euston. So my expectation is that a WJ to Zone 1 commuter travelling between 7am and 7pm will now pay 11GBP/day on PAYG. For someone (me :-( ) who gets 28 days holiday a year including bank holidays and IIRC a WJ all zones gold card is 2464 it works out at 10.62 per working day. (Today I did go into London with someone to see them off on a train from KX so I do occasionally make extra journeys but I also occasionally cycle into work) For someone (me :-) ) who always makes at least one of their journeys before 7am or after 7pm it will be cheaper by PAYG. (If this is right it's also an extra incentive to get me swimming again in the mornings and start catching a train before 7am again). Although my gold card is 2064 because I don't use the tube so I need to do both journeys offpeak to save money (assuming the occasional trip into London at the weekend as well) But the fact that PAYG is available to/from WJ regardless of exactly how much it costs is great news. Now I can just have a couple of oyster cards with auto topup setup and when I have people to visit there's no faffing around required at all. Tim. -- God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light. http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/ |
Oyster agreement
On 17 Nov, 18:27, "Paul Scott" wrote:
wrote in message ... On 17 Nov, 16:03, W14_Fishbourne wrote: On Nov 17, 3:26 pm, burkey wrote: "Hopefully now people will get the savings and service that they deserve." I fear that Ms Ward is mistaken if she thinks that the availability of Oyster PAYG from Watford Junction will mean lower fares. PAYG fares will be the same as for paper tickets from Watford Junction. How will differential fares for London Midland and London Overground journeys be achieved? They don't need to be differential fares, they weren't previously with Silverlink were they? They are 'special fares' because they are outside the normal ' zones'. A bit like beyond Moor Park on the Met, but so far a bit of a secret, unless you use the single fares finder. Nothing appears to have been published yet about how capping will operate, either. Paul S They do need to be differential fare if the statement that PAYG = Paper Ticket is true The single fare finder says: London Euston [London Overground] to Watford Junction Oyster single fare £5.50 Monday to Friday from 0700 and before 1900. £3.00 At all other times including public holidays. Cash single fare Special cash fares apply to selected London Overground journeys. The NR single fare for the same journey is £7.20 (first class is £11.00). The NR return fare is £7.40, standard day return is £11.70. An off-peak single is quite different from the current cash single fare. The definition of peak is pretty different too. Clearly, no-one in their right mind would use Oyster for a simple return journey after the NR-defined peak [1]. Someone travelling into London before 0700 (is that restriction really early enough - it should be more like 0600 once Oyster expands into the suburbs?) and out after 1900 would be able to make quite a saving. Jonathan [1] depending on how capping works after 09:30. |
Oyster agreement
"Tim Woodall" wrote in message e.uk... On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 16:08:22 -0000, Peter Masson wrote: Presumably, if they make other journeys, such as tube onwards from Euston, PAYG price-capping will give them a daily fare 50p less than a ODTC from Watford Junction. Or possibly not. The ODTC from Watford Junction is not a ODTC from Watford Junction but more like an all zones TC plus a (return) boundary Z6 to WJ extension (I don't know what the situation is with the stations between Hatch End and Watford High Street) You've raised a very vaild point. In all these discussions people sometimes appear to have forgotten one of the fundamental issues, that WJ is not in the Greater London area, or the London fare (travelcard) zones. The WJ all zone travelcard is fundamentally the same product that someone would buy from Southampton, or Northampton, its just that the 'rail part' of the journey is particularly short... I expect the same might be true for High St, Bushey and Carpenders Park, but IIRC a previous discussion indicated there were special features of the similar 'ABCD' area to do with NR travelcards, we possibly need someone like Barry Salter to explain it all again... Paul S |
Oyster agreement
wrote in message ... On 17 Nov, 18:27, "Paul Scott" wrote: wrote in message ... On 17 Nov, 16:03, W14_Fishbourne wrote: On Nov 17, 3:26 pm, burkey wrote: "Hopefully now people will get the savings and service that they deserve." I fear that Ms Ward is mistaken if she thinks that the availability of Oyster PAYG from Watford Junction will mean lower fares. PAYG fares will be the same as for paper tickets from Watford Junction. How will differential fares for London Midland and London Overground journeys be achieved? They don't need to be differential fares, they weren't previously with Silverlink were they? They are 'special fares' because they are outside the normal ' zones'. A bit like beyond Moor Park on the Met, but so far a bit of a secret, unless you use the single fares finder. Nothing appears to have been published yet about how capping will operate, either. They do need to be differential fare if the statement that PAYG = Paper Ticket is true The single fare finder says: London Euston [London Overground] to Watford Junction Oyster single fare £5.50 Monday to Friday from 0700 and before 1900. £3.00 At all other times including public holidays. Cash single fare Special cash fares apply to selected London Overground journeys. The NR single fare for the same journey is £7.20 (first class is £11.00). The NR return fare is £7.40, standard day return is £11.70. An off-peak single is quite different from the current cash single fare. Sorry what I meant is that a paper NR ticket for Silverlink Metro and County wasn't differentiated, so the same ticket (which remains available) for LO and London MIdland, shouldn't be differentiaited either? However on existing 'shared routes' like Chiltern/Met the NR and TfL basic single fares are the same aren't they? It'll probably all change again with the next Jan 08 round of NR fares changes... BTW - are there any other routes where Oyster PAYG and first class fares are both available? Paul S |
Oyster agreement
On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:37:01 -0000,
Paul Scott wrote: BTW - are there any other routes where Oyster PAYG and first class fares are both available? Watford Junction to Clapham Junction? Does Southern have first class? Tim. -- God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light. http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/ |
Oyster agreement
On Nov 17, 7:37 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote: wrote in message BTW - are there any other routes where Oyster PAYG and first class fares are both available? Yes, the services from Liverpool Street - Stratford and Tottenham Hale have first class fares as well as PAYG validity. |
Oyster agreement
"Tim Woodall" wrote in message e.uk... On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:37:01 -0000, Paul Scott wrote: BTW - are there any other routes where Oyster PAYG and first class fares are both available? Watford Junction to Clapham Junction? Does Southern have first class? Yes, I was thinking mainly of older interavailable routes though, as someone else has posted now... Paul |
Oyster agreement
On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:37:01 -0000, "Paul Scott"
wrote: However on existing 'shared routes' like Chiltern/Met the NR and TfL basic single fares are the same aren't they? It'll probably all change again with the next Jan 08 round of NR fares changes... BTW - are there any other routes where Oyster PAYG and first class fares are both available? Kings Cross - Finsbury Park on FCC? Not 100% certain but does the Thameslink route have First Class? - If so then West Hampstead (recently added to PAYG) - Elephant / L Bridge / Moorgate. C2C?? - again I'm not certain if they have 1st class on that route. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Oyster agreement
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message ... On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:37:01 -0000, "Paul Scott" wrote: However on existing 'shared routes' like Chiltern/Met the NR and TfL basic single fares are the same aren't they? It'll probably all change again with the next Jan 08 round of NR fares changes... BTW - are there any other routes where Oyster PAYG and first class fares are both available? Kings Cross - Finsbury Park on FCC? Not 100% certain but does the Thameslink route have First Class? - If so then West Hampstead (recently added to PAYG) - Elephant / L Bridge / Moorgate. C2C?? - again I'm not certain if they have 1st class on that route. The Thameslink route has first class on Brighton/Gatwick - Bedford services, but not on the Sutton - Luton route. c2c is standard class only. Peter |
Oyster agreement
wrote in message ... On 17 Nov, 18:27, "Paul Scott" wrote: wrote in message ... On 17 Nov, 16:03, W14_Fishbourne wrote: On Nov 17, 3:26 pm, burkey wrote: "Hopefully now people will get the savings and service that they deserve." I fear that Ms Ward is mistaken if she thinks that the availability of Oyster PAYG from Watford Junction will mean lower fares. PAYG fares will be the same as for paper tickets from Watford Junction. How will differential fares for London Midland and London Overground journeys be achieved? They don't need to be differential fares, they weren't previously with Silverlink were they? They are 'special fares' because they are outside the normal ' zones'. A bit like beyond Moor Park on the Met, but so far a bit of a secret, unless you use the single fares finder. Nothing appears to have been published yet about how capping will operate, either. Paul S They do need to be differential fare if the statement that PAYG = Paper Ticket is true The single fare finder says: London Euston [London Overground] to Watford Junction Oyster single fare £5.50 Monday to Friday from 0700 and before 1900. £3.00 At all other times including public holidays. Cash single fare Special cash fares apply to selected London Overground journeys. The NR single fare for the same journey is £7.20 (first class is £11.00). The NR return fare is £7.40, standard day return is £11.70. An off-peak single is quite different from the current cash single fare. The definition of peak is pretty different too. Clearly, no-one in their right mind would use Oyster for a simple return journey after the NR-defined peak [1]. Someone travelling into London before 0700 (is that restriction really early enough - it should be more like 0600 once Oyster expands into the suburbs?) and out after 1900 would be able to make quite a saving. [1] depending on how capping works after 09:30. Looks like people in their right mind can use Oyster PAYG for a simple return journey: I now know the actual cost of an Oyster off peak return journey to WJ from Zone 1, thanks to the journey history for 13th Nov becoming available after yesterday's maintenance. Northbound journey £5.50. Journey commenced after 0930, therefore the off peak cap [1] applied to the return, at £7.30, which is 10p less than the NR off peak (CDR) return fare to Euston. Don't forget capping works independently of the peak/off peak fares, as has been discussed regularly in the past. If you dont make any journeys until 1900 in the evening for instance, the zone 1 to WJ fare of £3.00 each way would simply deduct £6.00 from your balance, and capping wouldn't occur. OTOH If a commuting journey was made after 0700, but before 0930, returning before 1900, you would pay £5.50 in both directions, which again is just less than the NR standard day return. £7.30 is the same offpeak cap value as that for Zone 1-ABCD, (shown online in the 'fares beyond Moor Park' leaflet) presume therefore the peak cap to WJ will be £14.00 as per ABCD. Paul S |
Oyster agreement
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 18:04:06 +0000, PRAR wrote:
Yes, you get the same seats and tables but extra doilies. The purpose of First Class on London commuter services is merely to allow one to pay more for a pretty much guaranteed seat and a less crowded atmosphere. The type of seats used is largely irrelevant. (The First Class seats on the WCML Desiros are less comfortable and have less legroom than the Standard ones, IMO.) Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
Oyster agreement
DERWENT Oyster agreement
Sun, 18 Nov 2007 18:34:58 GMT, (Neil Williams) On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 18:04:06 +0000, PRAR wrote: Yes, you get the same seats and tables but extra doilies. The purpose of First Class on London commuter services is merely to allow one to pay more for a pretty much guaranteed seat and a less crowded atmosphere. The type of seats used is largely irrelevant. I don't think either of these apply any more. First on Southern seems crowded and full. There aren't the standees which I suppose could be viewed as a bonus, but I doubt seats are guaranteed - even from Haywards Heath or Hurst Green. AFAIKT First in the South East only exists so that those few remaining people who have First Class travel privileges (free season ticket/expesne account etc) have something to spend it on. See for example C2C and Chiltern. (The First Class seats on the WCML Desiros are less comfortable and have less legroom than the Standard ones, IMO.) PRAR -- http://www.i.am/prar/ and http://prar.fotopic.net/ As long as people will accept crap, it will be financially profitable to dispense it. --Dick Cavett Please reply to the newsgroup. That is why it exists. NB Anti-spam measures in force - If you must email me use the Reply to address and not |
Oyster agreement
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message ... On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:37:01 -0000, "Paul Scott" wrote: However on existing 'shared routes' like Chiltern/Met the NR and TfL basic single fares are the same aren't they? It'll probably all change again with the next Jan 08 round of NR fares changes... BTW - are there any other routes where Oyster PAYG and first class fares are both available? Kings Cross - Finsbury Park on FCC? Not 100% certain but does the Thameslink route have First Class? - If so then West Hampstead (recently added to PAYG) - Elephant / L Bridge / Moorgate. C2C?? - again I'm not certain if they have 1st class on that route. C2C don't have 1st class because they treat all customers as if they all travel 1st class... |
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