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Camden Road - London Overground
In the December edition of Modern Railways John Sully reports that TfL
and Network Rail have decided on the track layout for the section from Dalston Kingsland to Camden Road following the opening of the ELL to Highbury and Islington. The proposals include a turn back platform at Camden Road. Alwaystouchout had previously reported that the service pattern on the former NLL was going to be: quote " Phase 1 This would need to be delivered before the Olympics, using the infrastructure enhancements mentioned above. · 4tph from Clapham Junction to Stratford · 2tph from Gospel Oak to Barking (with additional peak trains) · 4tph from Richmond to Stratford This would result in 8tph between Willesden Junction and Stratford. Phase 2 A move to the second phase of services could take place after the Olympics, and is dependent on the Bakerloo line takeover of Euston- Watford local services to remove trains between Queen's Park and Euston. In their place, trains would operate from Queen's Park via Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead to Camden Road (using what is currently a freight-only link at Primrose Hill) and then on to Stratford. Clapham Junction trains would be diverted to Barking instead of Stratford. This would result in a service pattern with · 4tph from Stratford to Richmond, · 4tph from Barking to Clapham Junction · 4tph from Queen's Park to Stratford via South Hampstead. The switch from Phase 1 to Phase 2 would enhance Gospel Oak to Barking services to the Mayor's "minimum" turn-up-and-go frequency of 4tph. It would also improve services to Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead, and provide a new link from these places and Queen's Park to Camden and Islington. However, services at Kentish Town West would drop from 8tph to 4tph along with through-services from Willesden Junction and West Hampstead to Camden, Islington and Stratford." unquote No trains were originally planned to terminate at Camden Road so have I missed something or has the plan be changed - if so to what? Allowing for the fact that freight services over the route will probably not diminish as container trains from Harwich and Felixstowe will probably be replaced by trains from the newly approved Thames Gateway at Thameshaven I cannot see how the proposed layout increases or indeed maximises capacity along this key bottle neck section. |
Camden Road - London Overground
On Nov 26, 10:20 am, Mwmbwls wrote:
No trains were originally planned to terminate at Camden Road so have I missed something or has the plan be changed - if so to what? Allowing for the fact that freight services over the route will probably not diminish as container trains from Harwich and Felixstowe will probably be replaced by trains from the newly approved Thames Gateway at Thameshaven I cannot see how the proposed layout increases or indeed maximises capacity along this key bottle neck section. It makes sense in terms of destinations. Camden is somewhere that people from east and south east London might actually want to get to, in a way that Barnsbury isn't. Jonn |
Camden Road - London Overground
Mwmbwls wrote:
In the December edition of Modern Railways John Sully reports that TfL and Network Rail have decided on the track layout for the section from Dalston Kingsland to Camden Road following the opening of the ELL to Highbury and Islington. The proposals include a turn back platform at Camden Road. No trains were originally planned to terminate at Camden Road so have I missed something or has the plan be changed - if so to what? There is no harm in having a turnback or two dotted around for occasional use, otherwise any problem shuts the entire line. |
Camden Road - London Overground
On Nov 26, 2:13 pm, "John Rowland"
wrote: Mwmbwls wrote: In the December edition of Modern Railways John Sully reports that TfL and Network Rail have decided on the track layout for the section from Dalston Kingsland to Camden Road following the opening of the ELL to Highbury and Islington. The proposals include a turn back platform at Camden Road. According to the November issue of Modern Railways, only the 4tph from New Cross will run to Highbury & Islington - the other 8tph (from West Croydon and Crystal Palace) would terminate at Dalston Junction. But if the ELL has a segregated route all the way to H&I (as the current issue shows) then surely all the trains could run there, providing much better interchange opportunities? Would presumably need extra trains to be ordered though. |
Camden Road - London Overground
On 26 Nov, 17:18, brixtonite wrote:
On Nov 26, 2:13 pm, "John Rowland" wrote: Mwmbwls wrote: In the December edition of Modern Railways John Sully reports that TfL and Network Rail have decided on the track layout for the section from Dalston Kingsland to Camden Road following the opening of the ELL to Highbury and Islington. The proposals include a turn back platform at Camden Road. According to the November issue of Modern Railways, only the 4tph from New Cross will run to Highbury & Islington - the other 8tph (from West Croydon and Crystal Palace) would terminate at Dalston Junction. But if the ELL has a segregated route all the way to H&I (as the current issue shows) then surely all the trains could run there, providing much better interchange opportunities? Would presumably need extra trains to be ordered though. I don't think it's correct that the ELL will have a segregated route all the way to H&I, that could only happen of there was a bit of major shuffling about with the adjacent freight line(s) that run to the north of the passenger lines (and the freight line is alternately single and a pair of lines as well). Plus any terminating train at H&I would need to have all the passengers turfed out and then be reversed, all of which would take time and block up the lines. |
Camden Road - London Overground
"Mizter T" wrote in message ... On 26 Nov, 17:18, brixtonite wrote: On Nov 26, 2:13 pm, "John Rowland" wrote: Mwmbwls wrote: In the December edition of Modern Railways John Sully reports that TfL and Network Rail have decided on the track layout for the section from Dalston Kingsland to Camden Road following the opening of the ELL to Highbury and Islington. The proposals include a turn back platform at Camden Road. According to the November issue of Modern Railways, only the 4tph from New Cross will run to Highbury & Islington - the other 8tph (from West Croydon and Crystal Palace) would terminate at Dalston Junction. But if the ELL has a segregated route all the way to H&I (as the current issue shows) then surely all the trains could run there, providing much better interchange opportunities? Would presumably need extra trains to be ordered though. I don't think it's correct that the ELL will have a segregated route all the way to H&I, that could only happen of there was a bit of major shuffling about with the adjacent freight line(s) that run to the north of the passenger lines (and the freight line is alternately single and a pair of lines as well). The November Modern Rail showed two options for the NLL along this stretch. The common feature of both options was four platform stations at Canonbury and Highbury & Islington, with the existing platfoms used for ELL, and the two new platfoms (the dualled freight lines effectively) for the NLL trains. The 'selected' option of the two, shown in the Dec edition, is apparently the more expensive of the two, with 3 platform stations at Caledonian Rd and Camden Rd. This allows for 4 tracks (middle 2 bi-directional) from Camden Rd station to a point between Cal Rd & H&I, where the 4 combine and becomes the northern two of the overall layout. At Camden Rd, the tracks (from the south) would be a westbound platform line, a turnback platform line (bi-di), an eastbound platform, then an eastbound through line. At Caledonian Rd, the tracks (again from the south) would be a westbound platform line, two bi-di platform lines, then an eastbound through line... (too much for ASCII art, I'm afraid) Paul S |
Camden Road - London Overground
On 26 Nov, 19:00, "Paul Scott" wrote:
The November Modern Rail showed two options for the NLL along this stretch. The common feature of both options was four platform stations at Canonbury and Highbury & Islington, with the existing platfoms used for ELL, and the two new platfoms (the dualled freight lines effectively) for the NLL trains. For some reason I'd always assumed it'd be two for freight and two for passenger trains, but I suppose segregating it makes some sort of sense - essentially it's just extending the two track Stratford- Dalston section further west to Highbury. Do they say how the various tracks west of there might be used? (Someone linked to a Network Rail presentation recently that had detailed planned track layouts, but inevitably I can't find it now. Anyone?) U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
Camden Road - London Overground
"Mr Thant" wrote in message ... On 26 Nov, 19:00, "Paul Scott" wrote: The November Modern Rail showed two options for the NLL along this stretch. The common feature of both options was four platform stations at Canonbury and Highbury & Islington, with the existing platfoms used for ELL, and the two new platfoms (the dualled freight lines effectively) for the NLL trains. For some reason I'd always assumed it'd be two for freight and two for passenger trains, but I suppose segregating it makes some sort of sense - essentially it's just extending the two track Stratford- Dalston section further west to Highbury. Do they say how the various tracks west of there might be used? I'd expect the north side track to be a freight line or loop (no platforms), south to be freight or pax, centre pair pax only? (Someone linked to a Network Rail presentation recently that had detailed planned track layouts, but inevitably I can't find it now. Anyone?) Possibly this, page 22, but it seems very out of date now, maybe because at that stage the ELL wasn't going beyond Dalston Junction? http://tinyurl.com/ywr9rh Paul S |
Camden Road - London Overground
On 26 Nov, 21:55, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Possibly this, page 22, but it seems very out of date now, maybe because at that stage the ELL wasn't going beyond Dalston Junction? Thanks - that's the one. And that's a good point. As brixtonite says upthread, it would be waste not to run all ELL trains to Highbury given the planned infrastructure. All though that would mean Higbhbury- Dalston going from 12 carriages per hour now to 80. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
Camden Road - London Overground
On Nov 26, 11:51 pm, Mr Thant
wrote: Thanks - that's the one. And that's a good point. As brixtonite says upthread, it would be waste not to run all ELL trains to Highbury given the planned infrastructure. All though that would mean Higbhbury- Dalston going from 12 carriages per hour now to 80. As John Rowland points out upthread reversing facilities are useful for maintaining operational robustness. Have any diagrams for the proposed layout at Dalston Junction been published? Is the full width of the former six platform NLR station still available?. Are there to be any off peak stabling sidings along the ELLX? |
Camden Road - London Overground
On 27 Nov, 07:31, Mwmbwls wrote:
As John Rowland points out upthread reversing facilities are useful for maintaining operational robustness. Have any diagrams for the proposed layout at Dalston Junction been published? Is the full width of the former six platform NLR station still available?. Yes. I've just dug up the planning application: http://tinyurl.com/2l2er3 It shows 4 platforms - two islands with through lines on the outside, two bays on the inside (like Willesden Junction low level). It also shows the large scale bus interchange, shopping centre and mid-rise residential development their building above. (the "Other" link goes to a detailed planning brief, though the "Drawing" document has more and better quality diagrams) Are there to be any off peak stabling sidings along the ELLX? Not that I'm aware of. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
Camden Road - London Overground
On 26 Nov, 10:20, Mwmbwls wrote:
In the December edition of Modern Railways John Sully reports that TfL and Network Rail have decided on the track layout for the section from Dalston Kingsland to Camden Road following the opening of the ELL to Highbury and Islington. The proposals include a turn back platform at Camden Road. Alwaystouchout had previously reported that the service pattern on the former NLL was going to be: quote " Phase 1 This would need to be delivered before the Olympics, using the infrastructure enhancements mentioned above. · 4tph from Clapham Junction to Stratford · 2tph from Gospel Oak to Barking (with additional peak trains) · 4tph from Richmond to Stratford This would result in 8tph between Willesden Junction and Stratford. Phase 2 A move to the second phase of services could take place after the Olympics, and is dependent on the Bakerloo line takeover of Euston- Watford local services to remove trains between Queen's Park and Euston. In their place, trains would operate from Queen's Park via Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead to Camden Road (using what is currently a freight-only link at Primrose Hill) and then on to Stratford. Clapham Junction trains would be diverted to Barking instead of Stratford. This would result in a service pattern with · 4tph from Stratford to Richmond, · 4tph from Barking to Clapham Junction · 4tph from Queen's Park to Stratford via South Hampstead. The switch from Phase 1 to Phase 2 would enhance Gospel Oak to Barking services to the Mayor's "minimum" turn-up-and-go frequency of 4tph. It would also improve services to Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead, and provide a new link from these places and Queen's Park to Camden and Islington. However, services at Kentish Town West would drop from 8tph to 4tph along with through-services from Willesden Junction and West Hampstead to Camden, Islington and Stratford." unquote No trains were originally planned to terminate at Camden Road so have I missed something or has the plan be changed - if so to what? Allowing for the fact that freight services over the route will probably not diminish as container trains from Harwich and Felixstowe will probably be replaced by trains from the newly approved Thames Gateway at Thameshaven I cannot see how the proposed layout increases or indeed maximises capacity along this key bottle neck section. There is some information about the North London Line contained in that year old Network Rail supplier briefing that you've just posted to uk.railway, including a map of the track changes on page 22, quite possibly out of date now, by the sounds of some of the posts on this thread. (6MB PDF file) http://www.networkrail.co.uk/documen...ber%202006.pdf or via http://preview.tinyurl.com/ywr9rh There's also details of TfL's service level commitment (SLCs) on page 20 which suggest that 4tph will run Stratford to Caledonian Rd & Barnesbury and reverse there (this stretch being the busiest bit of the NLL), as well as 4tph from New Cross to Callie Rd too. Maybe the plan is now to send some of these trains on to Camden Road, which would add to their usefulness. Anyway this is what it says... ----- TfL NLR SLC#2 Dec 2010 - Dec 2013 spans Olympics 4 tph Stratford to Richmond 4 tph Stratford to Cal'n Rd 2 tph Willesden - Clapham Jcn 2 tph Barking to Clapham Jcn 2 tph Barking to Gospel Oak 4 tph New Cross to Cal Rd (ELL Phase 2) Trains 4 car on NLL, 3 car on GO-B Post-NLRIP: TfL NLR SLC#3 Dec 2013 on Further increase in tph on parts of route 4 car EMUs on GO-B Depends on OHLE on GO-B ----- (NLRIP presumably means North London Railway Investment Plan.) |
Camden Road - London Overground
On Nov 27, 8:32 am, Mr Thant
wrote: Yes. I've just dug up the planning application:http://tinyurl.com/2l2er3 It shows 4 platforms - two islands with through lines on the outside, two bays on the inside (like Willesden Junction low level). It also shows the large scale bus interchange, shopping centre and mid-rise residential development their building above. (the "Other" link goes to a detailed planning brief, though the "Drawing" document has more and better quality diagrams) Thanks for that - use of air rights, Hong Kong style, to develop the area above the station will I suppose help to pay for the extension and interchange and kick start regeneration. Pity it is just square box architecture but you can't have everything. Are there any signs of movement on the ground - I assume the viaduct restoration is continuing to progress?. Are the new bridges replacing those were removed in place yet? As yet the route has not attracted significant photographic interest apart from the superb panoramic shot in the November 2007 edition of Modern Railways. |
Camden Road - London Overground
On 27 Nov, 10:22, Mwmbwls wrote:
On Nov 27, 8:32 am, Mr Thant wrote: Yes. I've just dug up the planning application:http://tinyurl.com/2l2er3 It shows 4 platforms - two islands with through lines on the outside, two bays on the inside (like Willesden Junction low level). It also shows the large scale bus interchange, shopping centre and mid-rise residential development their building above. (the "Other" link goes to a detailed planning brief, though the "Drawing" document has more and better quality diagrams) Thanks for that - use of air rights, Hong Kong style, to develop the area above the station will I suppose help to pay for the extension and interchange and kick start regeneration. Pity it is just square box architecture but you can't have everything. Are there any signs of movement on the ground - I assume the viaduct restoration is continuing to progress?. Are the new bridges replacing those were removed in place yet? As yet the route has not attracted significant photographic interest apart from the superb panoramic shot in the November 2007 edition of Modern Railways. The new bridges are all in place north of the Kingsland Road bridge, which has itself been extensively renovated. The new bridges includes a new bow string arch bridge over the Regent's Canal: http://www.flickr.com/photos/albedo/281827650/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/markle1/288550361/ The bridge taking the line over Shoreditch High Street from the Bishopsgate goods yard site on the east to join the old alignment out of Broad Street on the west side hasn't been put in place yet. There is however much preparatory work going on on the west side, with part of the viaduct being knocked down so as to receive the line from the bridge. There's also loads of work going on on the Bishopsgate goods yard site, the future location of Shoreditch High Street station. Work at Dalston Junction has also been continuing apace, but it's pretty hidden behind hoardings - you need the elevation of the top deck of a bus or standing on a bicycle to get a look at what's happening. There's no sign of the flats going up above Dalston Junction station yet, apart from on the hoardings - not everyone is pleased (and I can't say the flats look architecturally stunning from this either): http://www.flickr.com/photos/tims/456357853/ The route might not have attracted significant photographic interest from railway enthusiasts, but I'm sure that a good few of the creative types that inhabit Shoreditch and the surrounds will have been photographically recording the changes to the neighbourhood. |
Camden Road - London Overground
"Mizter T" wrote in message ... On 27 Nov, 10:22, Mwmbwls wrote: On Nov 27, 8:32 am, Mr Thant wrote: Yes. I've just dug up the planning application:http://tinyurl.com/2l2er3 It shows 4 platforms - two islands with through lines on the outside, two bays on the inside (like Willesden Junction low level). It also shows the large scale bus interchange, shopping centre and mid-rise residential development their building above. (the "Other" link goes to a detailed planning brief, though the "Drawing" document has more and better quality diagrams) Thanks for that - use of air rights, Hong Kong style, to develop the area above the station will I suppose help to pay for the extension and interchange and kick start regeneration. Pity it is just square box architecture but you can't have everything. Are there any signs of movement on the ground - I assume the viaduct restoration is continuing to progress?. Are the new bridges replacing those were removed in place yet? As yet the route has not attracted significant photographic interest apart from the superb panoramic shot in the November 2007 edition of Modern Railways. The new bridges are all in place north of the Kingsland Road bridge, which has itself been extensively renovated. The new bridges includes a new bow string arch bridge over the Regent's Canal: http://www.flickr.com/photos/albedo/281827650/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/markle1/288550361/ Famously announced by TfL as the first ever bow string bridge on the railway network - total & utter bo##ocks of course... Paul |
Camden Road - London Overground
Found this on the web:
http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/document/2923/get Page 14 December 2010 NLL / WLL : 4tph from Richmond to Stratford (Mondays to Sundays) 2tph from Stratford to Camden Road (Mondays to Sundays) 2tph from Clapham Junction to Willesden Junction (Mondays to Sundays) 2tph from Clapham Junction to Stratford (Mondays to Sundays) (inc 1 Southern train) Also : 4tph GOB (Mondays to Sundays) 3tph Watford DC (Mondays to Sundays) (Bakerloo runs 6 tph to Harrow) (Also, for crossrail:) http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...nse_141107.pdf Pages 32 to 35: Service pattern on the Great Western, what trains stop where, etc. |
Camden Road - London Overground
On 27 Nov, 11:59, wrote:
December 2010 NLL / WLL : 4tph from Richmond to Stratford (Mondays to Sundays) 2tph from Stratford to Camden Road (Mondays to Sundays) 2tph from Clapham Junction to Willesden Junction (Mondays to Sundays) 2tph from Clapham Junction to Stratford (Mondays to Sundays) (inc 1 Southern train) Also : 4tph GOB (Mondays to Sundays) 3tph Watford DC (Mondays to Sundays) (Bakerloo runs 6 tph to Harrow) Gosh, that's excellent info. We haven't heard anything much concrete on this topic for a long time. They're basically confirming the Bakerloo re-extension is a long term project - it would make sense to do it at the same time as the 2019 upgrade or the possibly-happening southern extension. Also, through running of the Goblin is apparently as dead as its electrification. Is the "inc 1 Southern" to Stratford a mistake, or something new? U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
Camden Road - London Overground
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, Mizter T wrote:
On 27 Nov, 10:22, Mwmbwls wrote: Are the new bridges replacing those were removed in place yet? As yet the route has not attracted significant photographic interest apart from the superb panoramic shot in the November 2007 edition of Modern Railways. The new bridges are all in place north of the Kingsland Road bridge, which has itself been extensively renovated. The new bridges includes a new bow string arch bridge over the Regent's Canal: http://www.flickr.com/photos/albedo/281827650/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/markle1/288550361/ AHEM. http://www.flickr.com/photos/twic/441840317/ tom -- Pizza: cheap, easy, and portable. Oh, wait, that's me. Never mind. -- edda |
Camden Road - London Overground
"Mizter T" wrote in message ... On 27 Nov, 11:59, wrote: Found this on the web: http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/document/2923/get Page 14 December 2010 NLL / WLL : 4tph from Richmond to Stratford (Mondays to Sundays) 2tph from Stratford to Camden Road (Mondays to Sundays) 2tph from Clapham Junction to Willesden Junction (Mondays to Sundays) 2tph from Clapham Junction to Stratford (Mondays to Sundays) (inc 1 Southern train) Also : 4tph GOB (Mondays to Sundays) 3tph Watford DC (Mondays to Sundays) (Bakerloo runs 6 tph to Harrow) Interesting, I wonder how the ELLX trains will fit in, as tantalisingly that's the projected position in December but it could all change the month after that - as the text goes on to state "The East London line link to Highbury & Islington would open in January 2011". As we've discussed up thread, the ELLX trains don't need to fit in, because they will have their own dedicated southern pair of tracks to H&I... There are also options around to have DMUs running from Barking to Clapham Junction, which is possibly why they are suggesting a turnback at Camden Rd, that way it thins out the service beyond Gospel Oak on the NLL, to allow the paths to be taken up by units from the GOB. Southern trains to Stratford I think is a typo, I suspect they've possibly misinterpreted something about the WLL, as things stand I suspect Southern are more interested in (re)extending beyond Watford Junction, latest idea (from Modern Rail) is to Milton Keynes, which is getting a new bay platform. Paul |
Camden Road - London Overground
Tom Anderson wrote:
AHEM. http://www.flickr.com/photos/twic/441840317/ Bridges *span* canals... only transporter bridges *cross* canals! ;-) |
Camden Road - London Overground
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, John Rowland wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote: AHEM. http://www.flickr.com/photos/twic/441840317/ Bridges *span* canals... only transporter bridges *cross* canals! ;-) Ha! Good one. Although, just to spoil your fun, the OED says: cross, v. 9. a. Of things: To extend across from side to side. 1577 B. GOOGE Heresbach's Husb. IV. (1586) 171b, They must have warme Houses, as your Pigions have, crossed through with small Pearches. 1631 GOUGE God's Arrows IV. xv. 399 The maine Summier which crossed the garret. 1832 Stat. 2 & 3 Wm. IV, c. 64 Sched. O. 48 The said railroad..crosses a small stream. So i think it is admissible, even if 'span' is a much more beautiful word. tom -- Caps lock is like cruise control for cool. |
Camden Road - London Overground
"Paul Scott" wrote in message ... "Mizter T" wrote in message ... The new bridges are all in place north of the Kingsland Road bridge, which has itself been extensively renovated. The new bridges includes a new bow string arch bridge over the Regent's Canal: http://www.flickr.com/photos/albedo/281827650/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/markle1/288550361/ Famously announced by TfL as the first ever bow string bridge on the railway network - total & utter bo##ocks of course... I now realise (from a recent post) this may have been announced by a TfL 'span doctor'... (Fetches coat...) Paul S |
Camden Road - London Overground
On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Paul Scott wrote:
"Paul Scott" wrote in message ... "Mizter T" wrote in message ... The new bridges are all in place north of the Kingsland Road bridge, which has itself been extensively renovated. The new bridges includes a new bow string arch bridge over the Regent's Canal: http://www.flickr.com/photos/albedo/281827650/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/markle1/288550361/ Famously announced by TfL as the first ever bow string bridge on the railway network - total & utter bo##ocks of course... I now realise (from a recent post) this may have been announced by a TfL 'span doctor'... You really are being quite a spanner today, Paul ... tom -- Caps lock is like cruise control for cool. |
Camden Road - London Overground
On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:04:01 +0000, Tom Anderson
wrote: On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Paul Scott wrote: "Paul Scott" wrote in message ... "Mizter T" wrote in message ... The new bridges are all in place north of the Kingsland Road bridge, which has itself been extensively renovated. The new bridges includes a new bow string arch bridge over the Regent's Canal: http://www.flickr.com/photos/albedo/281827650/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/markle1/288550361/ Famously announced by TfL as the first ever bow string bridge on the railway network - total & utter bo##ocks of course... I now realise (from a recent post) this may have been announced by a TfL 'span doctor'... You really are being quite a spanner today, Paul ... He fits well with all the transport nuts here. |
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