On 13 Dec, 10:13, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Lew 1" wrote in message

...

And it's still going to have NR-style frequencies, unlike the tube.

Surely that's only in the short-term though? I understood that the aim was
to create mass transit systems out of them, ala the current Underground
frequency. I may be wrong.

Achieving mass transit frequencies on a heavy rail route (say 24tph) is the
sort of thing provided by Crossrail or Thameslink, at a cost of £billions.
The Overground is a much more modest affair

You will only ever see NLL & WLL frequency increasing incrementally, up to
4, 6 or maybe 8 tph over overlapping sections of the line, because it is
also a goods line. When Ken talks about 'metro style frequencies' he seems
to mean better than 4 tph, which is when it is considered (by many) that you
don't need to worry about the timetable. The ELLX plans are initially based
on 12 tph through the tunnel, and that is limited to 8tph south of New Cross
Gate, because it is then integrated with the main lines towards
Croydon/Crystal Palace.

Paul S

According to Connex (remember Connex Metro?) a station that had four
trains an hour leaving from the same end, to four different branches,
during the day Monday to Friday (but one or none per hour evenings and
Sundays) was a Metro station.

I hope we aren't going to get similarly nonsensical claims with
Overground.

"Paul Scott" wrote

You will only ever see NLL & WLL frequency increasing incrementally, up to
4, 6 or maybe 8 tph over overlapping sections of the line, because it is
also a goods line. When Ken talks about 'metro style frequencies' he seems
to mean better than 4 tph, which is when it is considered (by many) that
you
don't need to worry about the timetable. The ELLX plans are initially
based
on 12 tph through the tunnel, and that is limited to 8tph south of New
Cross
Gate, because it is then integrated with the main lines towards
Croydon/Crystal Palace.

Current ELL proposals are 4tph from each of New Cross, Crystal Palace, and
West Croydon, combining to 12 tph between Surrey Quays and Dalston Junction,
though only 4 tph on to Highbury & Islington. Phase 2 would add 4 tph from
Clapham Junction via the South London Line.

Peter

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Mizter T wrote:

On 12 Dec, 18:23, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, John B wrote:
On 12 Dec, 12:42, Tom Anderson wrote:

This map has the W&C and GN&C in solid orange:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1986.html

Wow - was the H&C (or Met, in those days) past Whitechapel really once
peak-hours only?

It still is, isn't it? I have a friend who lived in Stepney a few years
ago, and getting home from hers was a nightmare in the evenings for
exactly that reason.

No. It's Whitechapel-only on late evenings (last train ex-Barking is
the 2051) and Sundays, but runs to Barking for the rest of the day Mon-
Sat.

Ah, so it's still not all day every day to Barking. More than just in the
peaks, granted, but it's still an annoying pattern. Some people still want
to travel into town after nine!

District to Aldgate, exit and walk to Aldgate East for the Circle or Met
lines would be one way to deal with it - is Aldgate and Aldgate East an
outerchange I wonder, coz it should be if it ain't though I bet it
already is.

I used to go via Tower Hill, which was probably not very clever. Or get
the bus - once one actually came along, it was a single seat all the way
home on the lovely 254.

Thinking about it, walking Aldgate East to Liverpool Street would probably
have been the best bet.

Dare I suggest that for a Stepney to Finsbury Park journey the new ELLX
might be handy

If you like - although i lived in Clapton at the time!

- walk to Whitechapel (or get the District or bus if you insist!) then
one of the 8 (?) tph that will continue through past Dalston Junction to
Caledonian Rd & Barnsbury, get off at High & I then the Vic line up to
FP.

Fair enough. Not a lot of TPH, though; but then the H&C to KX isn't much
better.

tom

--
[of Mulholland Drive] Cancer is pretty ingenious too, but its best to
avoid. -- Tex

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Paul Scott wrote:

"Lew 1" wrote in message
...
And it's still going to have NR-style frequencies, unlike the tube.

Surely that's only in the short-term though? I understood that the aim
was to create mass transit systems out of them, ala the current
Underground frequency. I may be wrong.

Achieving mass transit frequencies on a heavy rail route (say 24tph) is
the sort of thing provided by Crossrail or Thameslink, at a cost of
£billions. The Overground is a much more modest affair

Is there anything technical about the Overground that prohibits that sort
of frequency, in terms of rails and whatever? I thought it was just that
the demand does't (yet) justify spending money to achieve it. Plus, the
need for freight paths and working in with other NR services down south.

tom

--
[of Mulholland Drive] Cancer is pretty ingenious too, but its best to
avoid. -- Tex

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Andy wrote:

On Dec 12, 6:21 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Andy wrote:

and there would be no connection back onto the LUL system for major
servicing anyway.

I hadn't realised that was happening. Is there a huge problem with
doing occasional stock transfers over NR lines? Apart from the fact
that the route would via Clapham Junction, some maneuvers out West, and
the Dudden Hill branch ...

And where would the connection onto National Rail be?

At New Cross or New Cross Gate.

At the northern end, the ELL will only run to Dalston, until the NLL is
reconfigured for the 2011 extension of services to Highbury & Islington.
At the southern end, there will be no connections until the flying
junction at New Cross Gate is installed (the work for this is planned to
start in May 2008, but that's just the bridge installation).

Ah, okay. I didn't realise that either!

Also, i have no idea if A stock would be in gauge for any route across
south London. There are freight routes there, so plenty of height, but A
stock is wide, so it might fit through.

The St. Mary's curve to the District / Hammersmith & City lines is due
to be taken out early next year and so the line will be 'on its own'
with no connections to NR or LUL for a long time.

Why is this link being removed? Are platforms being extended over it or
something?

tom

--
[of Mulholland Drive] Cancer is pretty ingenious too, but its best to
avoid. -- Tex

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Andy wrote:

On Dec 12, 6:21 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Andy wrote:

and there would be no connection back onto the LUL system for major
servicing anyway.

I hadn't realised that was happening. Is there a huge problem with doing
occasional stock transfers over NR lines? Apart from the fact that the
route would via Clapham Junction, some maneuvers out West, and the
Dudden Hill branch ...

And where would the connection onto National Rail be?

At New Cross or New Cross Gate.

At the northern end, the ELL will only run to Dalston, until the NLL is
reconfigured for the 2011 extension of services to Highbury & Islington.
At the southern end, there will be no connections until the flying
junction at New Cross Gate is installed (the work for this is planned to
start in May 2008, but that's just the bridge installation).

Ah, okay. I didn't realise that either!

Also, i have no idea if A stock would be in gauge for any route across
south London. There are freight routes there, so plenty of height, but A
stock is wide, so it might fit through.

The St. Mary's curve to the District / Hammersmith & City lines is due to
be taken out early next year and so the line will be 'on its own' with no
connections to NR or LUL for a long time.

Why is this link being removed? Are platforms being extended over it or
something?


Its only purpose is for ELL trains to get back to their main depot - Neasden
is it? Once the ELL is rebuilt for main line spec trains, they will have no
requirement to enter the LU system, indeed they are probably out of gauge
for length anyway. The power supply and signalling systems at either side of
the curve will be incompatible, so the track connection would appear
irrelevant and unnecessary.

Paul S

Tom Anderson wrote:

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Mizter T wrote:

On 12 Dec, 18:23, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, John B wrote:
On 12 Dec, 12:42, Tom Anderson wrote:

This map has the W&C and GN&C in solid orange:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1986.html

Wow - was the H&C (or Met, in those days) past Whitechapel really once
peak-hours only?

It still is, isn't it? I have a friend who lived in Stepney a few years
ago, and getting home from hers was a nightmare in the evenings for
exactly that reason.

No. It's Whitechapel-only on late evenings (last train ex-Barking is
the 2051) and Sundays, but runs to Barking for the rest of the day Mon-
Sat.

Ah, so it's still not all day every day to Barking. More than just in the
peaks, granted, but it's still an annoying pattern. Some people still want
to travel into town after nine!

District to Aldgate, exit and walk to Aldgate East for the Circle or Met
lines would be one way to deal with it - is Aldgate and Aldgate East an
outerchange I wonder, coz it should be if it ain't though I bet it
already is.

I used to go via Tower Hill, which was probably not very clever. Or get
the bus - once one actually came along, it was a single seat all the way
home on the lovely 254.

I was going to suggest a spot of bus hopping, but I suspect that once
you'd got as far as Clapton station on the 106 it just becomes easier
to walk the last stretch back to Upper Clapton (presuming that's where
you were at the time!).


Thinking about it, walking Aldgate East to Liverpool Street would probably
have been the best bet.

Well, if you were going home by train I dare say that going from
Bethnal Green (overground) station might have been a decent option -
all the Clapton-bound trains normally call there.


Dare I suggest that for a Stepney to Finsbury Park journey the new ELLX
might be handy

If you like - although i lived in Clapton at the time!

- walk to Whitechapel (or get the District or bus if you insist!) then
one of the 8 (?) tph that will continue through past Dalston Junction to
Caledonian Rd & Barnsbury, get off at High & I then the Vic line up to
FP.

Fair enough. Not a lot of TPH, though; but then the H&C to KX isn't much
better.


Well, 8tph is a lot in my books! But perhaps you've read elsewhere in
this thread where others have stated that the plan is/was for just
4tph - though it seems this might change given that the new track
layout on the NLL has been confirmed since then (though I haven't
really got my head round that yet). The more ELLX trains running
through to Highbury & Islington the better, though I'm quite sure the
planners at TfL London Rail know that very well already!

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Paul Scott wrote:

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Andy wrote:

On Dec 12, 6:21 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Andy wrote:

and there would be no connection back onto the LUL system for major
servicing anyway.

The St. Mary's curve to the District / Hammersmith & City lines is due to
be taken out early next year and so the line will be 'on its own' with no
connections to NR or LUL for a long time.

Why is this link being removed? Are platforms being extended over it or
something?

Its only purpose is for ELL trains to get back to their main depot -
Neasden is it? Once the ELL is rebuilt for main line spec trains, they
will have no requirement to enter the LU system, indeed they are
probably out of gauge for length anyway. The power supply and signalling
systems at either side of the curve will be incompatible, so the track
connection would appear irrelevant and unnecessary.

I smell circular reasoning! Why can't the ELL going to use A stock?
Because St Mary's curve is being taken out. Why is St Mary's curve being
taken out? Because the ELL isn't going to use A stock!

If the curve was left in, and other provisions made for continuing to run
tube trains, the line could reopen soon and carry on running as before
until the extensions are ready, at which point it could go over to NR
operation. Yes, this would be more difficult and expensive than the
current plan, but it would also mean that an entire line didn't have to
close for three years!

Apart from having a fourth rail, what would need to be done to make the
line tube-friendly? I imagine NR signals would be fine, you'd just have to
train drivers to read those instead of LU signals (do they do this already
towards Richmond and Amersham?). What's the situation with platform
height?

tom

--
Any Christmas message which ends with "... everything's pointless
...." probably doesn't need sharing -- cleanskies

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Mizter T wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Mizter T wrote:

On 12 Dec, 18:23, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, John B wrote:
On 12 Dec, 12:42, Tom Anderson wrote:

This map has the W&C and GN&C in solid orange:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1986.html

Wow - was the H&C (or Met, in those days) past Whitechapel really once
peak-hours only?

It still is, isn't it? I have a friend who lived in Stepney a few years
ago, and getting home from hers was a nightmare in the evenings for
exactly that reason.

No. It's Whitechapel-only on late evenings (last train ex-Barking is
the 2051) and Sundays, but runs to Barking for the rest of the day Mon-
Sat.

Ah, so it's still not all day every day to Barking. More than just in the
peaks, granted, but it's still an annoying pattern. Some people still want
to travel into town after nine!

District to Aldgate, exit and walk to Aldgate East for the Circle or Met
lines would be one way to deal with it - is Aldgate and Aldgate East an
outerchange I wonder, coz it should be if it ain't though I bet it
already is.

I used to go via Tower Hill, which was probably not very clever. Or get
the bus - once one actually came along, it was a single seat all the way
home on the lovely 254.

I was going to suggest a spot of bus hopping, but I suspect that once
you'd got as far as Clapton station on the 106 it just becomes easier to
walk the last stretch back to Upper Clapton (presuming that's where you
were at the time!).

No, i actually lived just behind the station.

Thinking about it, walking Aldgate East to Liverpool Street would probably
have been the best bet.

Well, if you were going home by train I dare say that going from Bethnal
Green (overground) station might have been a decent option - all the
Clapton-bound trains normally call there.

Yes, that would have been quite sensible. I never did it, though - i think
i was just mentally wedded to the idea of Liverpool Street.

tom

--
Any Christmas message which ends with "... everything's pointless
...." probably doesn't need sharing -- cleanskies

Tom Anderson wrote:

(snip)

I smell circular reasoning! Why can't the ELL going to use A stock?
Because St Mary's curve is being taken out. Why is St Mary's curve being
taken out? Because the ELL isn't going to use A stock!

(snip)

I haven't been following the rest of the discussion, however I saw the
above comments and will just add that I thought St. Mary's curve was
staying in.