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MIG wrote: On 24 Jan, 16:57, Mizter T wrote: On 24 Jan, 12:57, Bill Borland wrote: In article , Peter Masson writes Up Catford Loop trains cross to the Atlantic Lines at Crofton Road Junction, then at Factory Junction take the Low Level route via Stewarts Lane, joining the Up Slow at Battersea Pier Junction. Incorrect. Two trains per hour - the stopping service from Faversham - go "low level". Anything else goes High Level. This was said to be to avoid conflict with Eurostar trains, but I have used the Faversham train a couple of times since the end of the Eurostars, and it still goes the same way. -- Bill Borland Eh? I haven't used it much lately, but I think the Up Dartford - Victoria trains still take the low-level Stewarts Lane route. They've certainly done that a lot when I've been in them, although sometimes they seem to play it by ear. It's always a relief when they don't, because the high route is much quicker. I haven;t got much recent experience, but the low-level route certainly used to be the standard path. The high-level route appeared to be used occasionally when the train was running late. The fact that they are often (always?) timetabled to take longer from Denmark Hill going non-stop than the ones that stop at three stations via Battersea Park implies some reason for sloth, ie the low route. But that's just plain incorrect! Looking at off-peak times, the SLL stopping service is timetabled for 13 minutes, whilst the non-stop Dartford - Victoria takes 11 minutes. Things are all a bit more complicated at peak times, when both services taking a bit longer (except for a couple of the non-stop trains taking a minute less) - however, I can't see any instances of the non-stop trains taking longer to get to Victoria than the stopping SLL services. So, whilst the non-stop trains aren't much quicker than the stoppers, they still are. Some afternoon/evening Maidstone line trains (having gone via Catford) seem to go that way as well. |
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On 24 Jan, 18:13, Mizter T wrote:
MIG wrote: On 24 Jan, 16:57, Mizter T wrote: On 24 Jan, 12:57, Bill Borland wrote: In article , Peter Masson writes Up Catford Loop trains cross to the Atlantic Lines at Crofton Road Junction, then at Factory Junction take the Low Level route via Stewarts Lane, joining the Up Slow at Battersea Pier Junction. Incorrect. Two trains per hour - the stopping service from Faversham - go "low level". Anything else goes High Level. This was said to be to avoid conflict with Eurostar trains, but I have used the Faversham train a couple of times since the end of the Eurostars, and it still goes the same way. -- *Bill Borland Eh? I haven't used it much lately, but I think the Up Dartford - Victoria trains still take the low-level Stewarts Lane route. They've certainly done that a lot when I've been in them, although sometimes they seem to play it by ear. *It's always a relief when they don't, because the high route is much quicker. I haven;t got much recent experience, but the low-level route certainly used to be the standard path. The high-level route appeared to be used occasionally when the train was running late. The fact that they are often (always?) timetabled to take longer from Denmark Hill going non-stop than the ones that stop at three stations via Battersea Park implies some reason for sloth, ie the low route. But that's just plain incorrect! Looking at off-peak times, the SLL stopping service is timetabled for 13 minutes, whilst the non-stop Dartford - Victoria takes 11 minutes. Things are all a bit more complicated at peak times, when both services taking a bit longer (except for a couple of the non-stop trains taking a minute less) - however, I can't see any instances of the non-stop trains taking longer to get to Victoria than the stopping SLL services. So, whilst the non-stop trains aren't much quicker than the stoppers, they still are. Maybe it was the first one I looked at. Not to hand now, but I think I was comparing the 1623 and 1646 (and wondering why the former was shown on the PIS as terminating at Battersea Park, as in the situations where the first train doesn't arrive first, so they show the stop before as the destination). |
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On 24 Jan, 18:20, MIG wrote:
On 24 Jan, 18:13, Mizter T wrote: MIG wrote: On 24 Jan, 16:57, Mizter T wrote: The fact that they are often (always?) timetabled to take longer from Denmark Hill going non-stop than the ones that stop at three stations via Battersea Park implies some reason for sloth, ie the low route. But that's just plain incorrect! Looking at off-peak times, the SLL stopping service is timetabled for 13 minutes, whilst the non-stop Dartford - Victoria takes 11 minutes. Things are all a bit more complicated at peak times, when both services taking a bit longer (except for a couple of the non-stop trains taking a minute less) - however, I can't see any instances of the non-stop trains taking longer to get to Victoria than the stopping SLL services. So, whilst the non-stop trains aren't much quicker than the stoppers, they still are. Maybe it was the first one I looked at. Not to hand now, but I think I was comparing the 1623 and 1646 (and wondering why the former was shown on the PIS as terminating at Battersea Park, as in the situations where the first train doesn't arrive first, so they show the stop before as the destination). Sorry, you're absolutely right in the case of those specific trains - from Denmark Hill the 1623 SLL stopper takes 15 mins, the 1646 non- stopper takes 17 mins. However as far as I can see that really is the (somewhat bizarre) sole exception to the rule that the non-stoppers are quicker. Incidentally lately I've really taken to using the clutter free http://traintimes.org.uk/ to, er, get train times! It sources its results directly from the National Rail journey planner database, so unlike with other journey planners there aren't going to be any discrepancies in the results between what it gives and what you get from the 'official' NR Journey Planner. |
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On Jan 24, 7:46*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 24 Jan, 18:20, MIG wrote: On 24 Jan, 18:13, Mizter T wrote: MIG wrote: On 24 Jan, 16:57, Mizter T wrote: The fact that they are often (always?) timetabled to take longer from Denmark Hill going non-stop than the ones that stop at three stations via Battersea Park implies some reason for sloth, ie the low route. But that's just plain incorrect! Looking at off-peak times, the SLL stopping service is timetabled for 13 minutes, whilst the non-stop Dartford - Victoria takes 11 minutes. Things are all a bit more complicated at peak times, when both services taking a bit longer (except for a couple of the non-stop trains taking a minute less) - however, I can't see any instances of the non-stop trains taking longer to get to Victoria than the stopping SLL services. So, whilst the non-stop trains aren't much quicker than the stoppers, they still are. Maybe it was the first one I looked at. *Not to hand now, but I think I was comparing the 1623 and 1646 (and wondering why the former was shown on the PIS as terminating at Battersea Park, as in the situations where the first train doesn't arrive first, so they show the stop before as the destination). Sorry, you're absolutely right in the case of those specific trains - from Denmark Hill the 1623 SLL stopper takes 15 mins, the 1646 non- stopper takes 17 mins. However as far as I can see that really is the (somewhat bizarre) sole exception to the rule that the non-stoppers are quicker. It was a strange fluke that I happened to have looked up those particular trains this week and remembered them (because of the bizarre "Battersea Park" PIS) and assumed it was part of the standard pattern. Incidentally lately I've really taken to using the clutter free http://traintimes.org.uk/ to, er, get train times! It sources its results directly from the National Rail journey planner database, so unlike with other journey planners there aren't going to be any discrepancies in the results between what it gives and what you get from the 'official' NR Journey Planner. Thanks; that saves a few clicks. I can never remember the proper URL and still keep putting in www.railtrack.co.uk and waiting for it to redirect. |
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On 22 Jan, 11:44, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote: On 22 Jan, 11:02, "Paul Scott" wrote: Much of the above will change from December this year when the Southeastern Sevenoaks service becomes a joint operation with FCC and runs through to at least Kentish Town as part of Thameslink Key Output 0, which closes the bay platforms at Blackfriars... Paul True - but my understanding is that's a temporary measure (albeit a long-term one) whilst construction at Blackfriars goes ahead. I was under the impression that eventually Blackfriars would get new bay platforms for terminating services. Of course after a few years of through running to Kentish Town, I think there'll be a lot of passengers who will have grown quite accustomed/keen on this temporary arrangement, and will be displeased to see it finish! From what I've read over the last couple of years I believe the new Blackfriars bay platforms will not necessarily be for the same services as use them now, partly because they'll be on the east side of the through platforms, but OTOH we keep being told the eventual services are not confirmed yet, so anything might happen really... Interesting stuff. First off I presume you mean that the new bay platforms at Blackfriars will be to the *west* of the through Thameslink lines (i.e. the other side to where they are now) - in the not so distant past someone (possibly you) provided a link to the blueprints, which show how the through Thameslink line will be slewed at an angle through Blackfriars so as to make this all possible within the space available. But you make a very good point about what might happen to the Blackfriars (and soon to be Kentish Town) to Sevenoaks services - they'll be approaching on the wrong tracks to use the bay platform (they could presumably get in there but they'd block the everything up by so doing). So it seems possible that this Sevenoaks service might permanently turn into a Thameslink service from December onwards - which is exactly what happened in the early years of Thameslink. If that does turn out to be the case it would be welcomed by many passengers. There was just something in the back of my mind that suggested any major rejig of service would have to wait until the SPILL to Great Northern connection was put in place - which I thought (and I may have got this very wrong) wasn't going to happen until much later. Do you know what the story is about Thameslink and the Wimbledon - Sutton loop - are there proposals for change here as well? And is there any chance of a restored (off-peak) Sutton via Mitcham Junction to London Bridge service I wonder? Incidentally you say it's going to be a joint Southeastern and FCC operation - how's this thing actually going to work, and what stock is going to be used? The joint working bit is based on a 'webchat' reply on the FCC website, where it was stated that FCC drivers will hand over to Southeastern for the part of the route south of Blackfriars. The stock is apparently going to be the recently ordered 'Southern' 377s that were supposed to allow for the final 319s to be transferred to FCC - its all tied up with the Watford Junction - Gatwick 'lack of stock' debate thats going on elsewhere at the moment... Paul S Sounds intriguing. I wonder if the driver changeover at Blackfriars will cause delays. Any idea which TOC will actually "own" the trains? (Obviously a Rosco will own them, but you know what I mean.) |
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In article
..com, Mizter T writes Eh? I haven't used it much lately, but I think the Up Dartford - Victoria trains still take the low-level Stewarts Lane route. Sorry - my mistake - I was thinking only of the trains that actually come up through Catford. As a matter of interest, has anyone used Brixton Jn - Canterbury Rd Jn - Cambria Jn recently? That used to be the usual route before Eurostar; perhaps it will come back into use now. -- Bill Borland |
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"Mizter T" wrote in message ... On 22 Jan, 11:44, "Paul Scott" wrote: From what I've read over the last couple of years I believe the new Blackfriars bay platforms will not necessarily be for the same services as use them now, partly because they'll be on the east side of the through platforms, but OTOH we keep being told the eventual services are not confirmed yet, so anything might happen really... Interesting stuff. First off I presume you mean that the new bay platforms at Blackfriars will be to the *west* of the through Thameslink lines (i.e. the other side to where they are now) - Yes - my mistake - sorry if I've confused anyone... Paul S |
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"Mizter T" wrote But you make a very good point about what might happen to the Blackfriars (and soon to be Kentish Town) to Sevenoaks services - they'll be approaching on the wrong tracks to use the bay platform (they could presumably get in there but they'd block the everything up by so doing). So it seems possible that this Sevenoaks service might permanently turn into a Thameslink service from December onwards - which is exactly what happened in the early years of Thameslink. If that does turn out to be the case it would be welcomed by many passengers. It's too early to be sure of service patterns when the all-singing all-dancing Thameslink eventually happens. But current thinking is that the new Blackfriars bays on the west (upstream) side of the layout will enable Southeastern trains via Denmark Hill to terminate without conflicting with Thameslink trains via London Bridge. They will of course conflict with Thameslink trains via Herne Hill, but the idea is to upgrade crossovers on the London side of Elephant so that Southeastern and Thameslink trains will swap tracks there. With 6 Thameslink tph (in the peaks) via Herne Hill (18 via London Bridge) and 4 Southeastern Catford Loop plus a couple of fasts (Gillingham or Maidstone) this should not be too difficult. Peter |
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On 24 Jan, 21:26, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote But you make a very good point about what might happen to the Blackfriars (and soon to be Kentish Town) to Sevenoaks services - they'll be approaching on the wrong tracks to use the bay platform (they could presumably get in there but they'd block the everything up by so doing). So it seems possible that this Sevenoaks service might permanently turn into a Thameslink service from December onwards - which is exactly what happened in the early years of Thameslink. If that does turn out to be the case it would be welcomed by many passengers. It's too early to be sure of service patterns when the all-singing all-dancing Thameslink eventually happens. But current thinking is that the new Blackfriars bays on the west (upstream) side of the layout will enable Southeastern trains via Denmark Hill to terminate without conflicting with Thameslink trains via London Bridge. They will of course conflict with Thameslink trains via Herne Hill, but the idea is to upgrade crossovers on the London side of Elephant so that Southeastern and Thameslink trains will swap tracks there. With 6 Thameslink tph (in the peaks) via Herne Hill (18 via London Bridge) and 4 Southeastern Catford Loop plus a couple of fasts (Gillingham or Maidstone) this should not be too difficult. Peter Thanks Peter, I think was suffering from a failure to conceptualise this all and critically hadn't taken into account the massively increased throughput of Thameslink trains to/from London Bridge. I guess the track-swapping antics between Blackfriars and the Elephant could be avoided if the Sutton - Wimbledon loop via Herne Hill service became the one that terminated at Blackfriars, whilst the Thameslink trains were re-routed to Sevenoaks via the Catford Loop. That would of course displease a large number of people who had arranged their lives around how things are set up now. |
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On 24 Jan, 15:36, wrote:
(say, Edgware to Dalston). Hmm. The TfL journey planner suggests it without tweaking any settings, which isn't the case for most walking changes since it can usually find an almost-as-fast alternative. Maybe you have a point. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
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On Jan 24, 9:39*pm, Mizter T wrote:
I guess the track-swapping antics between Blackfriars and the Elephant could be avoided if the Sutton - Wimbledon loop via Herne Hill service became the one that terminated at Blackfriars, whilst the Thameslink trains were re-routed to Sevenoaks via the Catford Loop. That would of course displease a large number of people who had arranged their lives around how things are set up now.- Hide quoted text - It depends how large is large. My experience of Thameslink services coming from Saint Albans to Wimbledon in the peak is that the majority of passengers decamp at Saint Pancras with very few people joining the train. Smaller numbers than at Saint Pancras get off and on at Farringdon and City Thameslink and that when the southbound trains get to Blackfriars a substantial number of people working on the South Bank get off. Brighton line trains tend to attract distinctly more through passengers. I assume this is because of the connections to London Bridge and Gatwick. Does anybody have any idea however passengers from the Sutton Loop ride north of Blackfriars? |
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"Bill Borland" wrote As a matter of interest, has anyone used Brixton Jn - Canterbury Rd Jn - Cambria Jn recently? That used to be the usual route before Eurostar; perhaps it will come back into use now. The connections to the Atlantic Lines at Factory Junction, Voltaire road Junction, Shepherds Lane, and Crofton Road Junction were only put in with the Victoria resignalling (late 1970s?). Before then South Eastern trains could not run on the Atlantic Lines, which had no junctions between Battersea Park and Peckham Rye and were normally only used by the Victoria - London Bridge South London Line service. What is now the Reversible Line between Battersea Pier Junction and Voltaire Road Junction was before the resignalling part of the Up Slow Line, which ran from Shepherds Lane to Victoria, though the corresponding Down Slow only ran from Victoria to Battersea Pier Junction. It was also practically unheard of for a passenger train to take the Low level route from Factory Junction through Stewarts Lane to Battersea Pier Junction. Peter |
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On 25 Jan, 16:26, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Bill Borland" wrote As a matter of interest, has anyone used Brixton Jn - Canterbury Rd Jn - Cambria Jn recently? That used to be the usual route before Eurostar; perhaps it will come back into use now. But, critically, since the December timetable change there is now a 4tph service (off-peak) between Victoria and Orpington via Herne Hill. This has only been possible because Eurostar has gone and cleared the way for it - therefore I suspect that the Dartford to Victoria trains need to keep out the way of these services, hence they will continue to use the Atlantic Lines high above Brixton, and possibly continue to use the slow low-level Stewarts Lane route as well. The connections to the Atlantic Lines at Factory Junction, Voltaire road Junction, Shepherds Lane, and Crofton Road Junction were only put in with the Victoria resignalling (late 1970s?). Before then South Eastern trains could not run on the Atlantic Lines, [...] ....which I understand were still called the South London Line(s) then - the new Atlantic Lines name only coming into use after the Victoria resignalling... [...] which had no junctions between Battersea Park and Peckham Rye and were normally only used by the Victoria - London Bridge South London Line service. What is now the Reversible Line between Battersea Pier Junction and Voltaire Road Junction was before the resignalling part of the Up Slow Line, which ran from Shepherds Lane to Victoria, though the corresponding Down Slow only ran from Victoria to Battersea Pier Junction. It was also practically unheard of for a passenger train to take the Low level route from Factory Junction through Stewarts Lane to Battersea Pier Junction. Peter Interesting stuff. Whilst the low-level route is a PITA because it is slow, it does provide a behind-the-scenes perspective on Stewarts Lane - that said, there isn't that much that happens there now, not at least when compared to the past, and the stuff that does happen is largely out of view from this route. I remember Bill Hayles referring to part of the Stewarts Lane depot as the Cabbage Patch, and I had some notion that trains on this low-level route might have passed through that area - however on reviewing a post where he mentions this, it would in fact appear that this area is further to the south east of the railway lands, though seemingly not in current railway use but instead part of the industrial estate there. |
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On Jan 25, 4:26*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Bill Borland" wrote As a matter of interest, has anyone used Brixton Jn - Canterbury Rd Jn - Cambria Jn recently? *That used to be the usual route before Eurostar; perhaps it will come back into use now. The connections to the Atlantic Lines at Factory Junction, Voltaire road Junction, Shepherds Lane, and Crofton Road Junction were only put in with the Victoria resignalling (late 1970s?). Before then South Eastern trains could not run on the Atlantic Lines, which had no junctions between Battersea Park and Peckham Rye and were normally only used by the Victoria - London Bridge South London Line service. What is now the Reversible Line between Battersea Pier Junction and Voltaire Road Junction was before the resignalling part of the Up Slow Line, which ran from Shepherds Lane to Victoria, though the corresponding Down Slow only ran from Victoria to Battersea Pier Junction. It was also practically unheard of for a passenger train to take the Low level route from Factory Junction through Stewarts Lane to Battersea Pier Junction. There was a thread a while ago where I think you noted that Baker's didn't show it as existing at all (don't know about latest editions). |
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"MIG" wrote There was a thread a while ago where I think you noted that Baker's didn't show it as existing at all (don't know about latest editions). Someone did, but it wasn't me. Peter |
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On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:26:24 -0000, "Peter Masson"
wrote: The connections to the Atlantic Lines at Factory Junction, Voltaire road Junction, Shepherds Lane, and Crofton Road Junction were only put in with the Victoria resignalling (late 1970s?). Later than that. 1984, I think, though I could be a year out either way. -- Bill Hayles http://www.rossrail.com |
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It's a mystery to me why Camden Town/Camden
Road isn't shown as a possible connection. AIUI it's to deter people from using Camden Town, which is already massively overcrowded. That is terribly depressing, isn't it? What happened to the rebuilding plans? Why don't they make the second exit head from the platforms along a wide tunnel north, and then up northwards facing escalators, so that it goes as close as possible to Camden Road station. That way they'd also avoid having to demolish the electric ballroom, buck street market, or the old church next to it. I swear they are more interested in demolishing as much as possible that would be listable, too culturally important, or too much of the historic streetscape, for them to get away with demolishing under any other circumstances. They managed to add the escalators at Knightsbridge without having to demolish the entire street above them. Besides, why do they have to build some modernist "showpiece" pastiche at the south end, why can't they just rebuild the leslie greene oxblood-colour-tiled thing using new tiles and bricks? |
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lonelytraveller wrote:
why can't they just rebuild the leslie greene oxblood-colour-tiled thing using new tiles and bricks? Surely it's more in keeping with the historic philosophy of the Underground system to build something that is contemporary. -- http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9683633.html (101 661 and 309 623 at Manchester Piccadilly, 25 Feb 2000) |
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On 25 Jan, 10:55, Mr Thant
wrote: On 24 Jan, 15:36, wrote: (say, Edgware to Dalston). Hmm. The TfL journey planner suggests it without tweaking any settings, which isn't the case for most walking changes since it can usually find an almost-as-fast alternative. Maybe you have a point. Thanks. The fact that Camden Town/Road was shown as an interchange at one point, made me suspect it must be useful for _something_. The overcrowding explanations sounds horribly plausible, though. Jonn |
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