ELLX phase 2
 

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jan 2008, Mr Thant wrote:

On 22 Jan, 20:15, Mizter T wrote:

I'm not so sure of your certainty that ELLX trains are going to get
much longer than four carriages. If Wapping and Rotherhithe were
closed and with judicious use of SDO and perhaps some platform
level works, perhaps six carriages might be possible - though
without major works I'm not sure how feasible this would be. I
don't know whether passive provision is being made at the new ELLX
stations for longer trains.

I think all except Wapping, Rotherhithe and Canada Water are either 6
cars or easy to extend, though the secondary escape staircases might
be being built in the way.

I suppose if you ran 4-car trains on two of the branches, but left
one four-car, those trains could call at Wapping and Rotherhithe.
Better than nothing.

That's a pretty good idea really, as it stands there will be trains running
4 tph from New Cross to Dalston Junction [1], terminating in the centre
platforms. They alone could presumably give Wapping and Rotherhithe an
adequate service?

[1] Of course now that the ELLX will have its own pair of tracks as far as
Highbury & Islington, there has to be a bit of a question mark over this...

Paul S

ELLX phase 2
 

On 23 Jan, 15:40, wrote:
On 23 Jan, 14:40, Tom Anderson wrote:





On Wed, 23 Jan 2008, MIG wrote:
cut huge and fascinating analyses

To sum up, i think building those platforms would be a good idea, to add
flexibility and resiliency to the network, and to serve local users
better, but i don't think they're going to deliver extra capacity.

As MIG has already stated, your analysis purely looks at journeys into
central London and ignores other journeys. However, even when one
considers many of these other possible journeys, the case isn't
amazingly strong - many such journeys can be achieved using a change
elsewhere, or by using a bus for a bit of the journey (try me!).

Agreed. I was just trying to be even-handed!

This all makes for an excellent board game, and I can see that some of
the costs of the stations might be more than they appear at a glance,
but this started from a discussion of new lines and a suggestion that
new stations could increase journey possibilities much more cheaply
than new lines.

I just think that the starting point is not the benefits to someone
who knows the network and timetables inside out and knows which
stations are adjacent.

The starting point should be a normal who looks at the diagrams, with
no knowledge of which stations are adjacent (an interchange is not the
same as a choice of starting stations for someone who lives in the
area) and uses them to plan a route.

Fair enough. In which case, improvements to the map, showing stations
which are easy walks, is probably the cheapest way to improve things.

I'd agree. I think anything up to about 500m which provides a decent
connection is worth showing - as long as the distance is clearly
stated. London Overground in particular becomes a lot more useful when
viewed in those terms. It's a mystery to me why Camden Town/Camden
Road isn't shown as a possible connection.


I've certainly done the Queenstown Road - Battersea Park a few times,
which may well be a shorter walk than between the extremes of Clapham
Junction.

I am very much in favour of a walkable Brixton interchange, no matter
what. I believe that East Brixton station fell off at some point, but
there might still be space. Not the best location though, as has been
mentioned. I wonder about the possibility of creating full platforms
on the Atlantic(?) lines no longer used by Eurostar.

ELLX phase 2
 

On 23 Jan, 15:40, wrote:
I'd agree. I think anything up to about 500m which provides a decent
connection is worth showing - as long as the distance is clearly
stated. London Overground in particular becomes a lot more useful when
viewed in those terms. It's a mystery to me why Camden Town/Camden
Road isn't shown as a possible connection.

AIUI it's to deter people from using Camden Town, which is already
massively overcrowded.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

ELLX phase 2
 

"MIG" wrote

I am very much in favour of a walkable Brixton interchange, no matter
what. I believe that East Brixton station fell off at some point, but
there might still be space. Not the best location though, as has been
mentioned. I wonder about the possibility of creating full platforms
on the Atlantic(?) lines no longer used by Eurostar

The Atlantic Lines are the ex-Brighton or South London pair, which went
through East brixton and go over the top of Brixton. To include platforms,
the best location would be on the bridge over Brixton station, but it would
involve replacing the bridge with one which included platforms, and you'd
need four lifts down to the Brixton platforms for a full range of
interchange, plus lifts down to ground level.

There used (pre-1916) to be platforms on the Catford Loop lines, but
platforms here would be operationally inconvenient (the South London and
most of the Dartford - Victoria trains use the Atlantic Lines), and probably
would be as difficult and expensive to provide. One of the bronze passengers
is still waiting to catch a train from the stub of the Up Catford Loop
platform. I can't quickly find a photo of that one, but here is on eof the
other bronze passengers.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/karen_c...7600853131454/

Peter

Peter

ELLX phase 2
 

On 23 Jan, 18:07, John B wrote:
On 23 Jan, 15:40, wrote:

I'd agree. I think anything up to about 500m which provides a decent
connection is worth showing - as long as the distance is clearly
stated. London Overground in particular becomes a lot more useful when
viewed in those terms. It's a mystery to me why Camden Town/Camden
Road isn't shown as a possible connection.

I broadly agree with the notion above, but as John B says...


AIUI it's to deter people from using Camden Town, which is already
massively overcrowded.


Camden Town isn't perpetually crowded of course, but it often is - and
LU won't be keen on encouraging yet more people to pass through this
very busy station, which is what would be likely to happen if it was
shown as an interchange on the Tube map, the London Overground network
map or the Northern line linear maps (i.e. those displayed in the
carriages).

ELLX phase 2
 

On Jan 23, 6:40*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"MIG" wrote



I am very much in favour of a walkable Brixton interchange, no matter
what. *I believe that East Brixton station fell off at some point, but
there might still be space. *Not the best location though, as has been
mentioned. *I wonder about the possibility of creating full platforms
on the Atlantic(?) lines no longer used by Eurostar

The Atlantic Lines are the ex-Brighton or South London pair, which went
through East brixton and go over the top of Brixton. To include platforms,
the best location would be on the bridge over Brixton station, but it would
involve replacing the bridge with one which included platforms, and you'd
need four lifts down to the Brixton platforms for a full range of
interchange, plus lifts down to ground level.

There used (pre-1916) to be platforms on the Catford Loop lines, but
platforms here would be operationally inconvenient (the South London and
most of the Dartford - Victoria trains use the Atlantic Lines), and probably
would be as difficult and expensive to provide. One of the bronze passengers
is still waiting to catch a train from the stub of the Up Catford Loop
platform. I can't quickly find a photo of that one, but here is on eof the
other bronze passengers.http://www.flickr.com/photos/karen_c...-7215760085313...


Ah yes, I got the names the wrong way round. I was wondering about
the possibility of extending that stub and putting a platform on the
opposite side. I guessed that there had been platforms there in the
past.

It might only be usable by the South East Trains services, to avoid
crossing movements, but that's better than nothing (I note that they
keep crossing anyway, but I thought that might be to avoid Eurostars
when they ran).

ELLX phase 2
 

"MIG" wrote

Ah yes, I got the names the wrong way round. I was wondering about
the possibility of extending that stub and putting a platform on the
opposite side. I guessed that there had been platforms there in the
past.

It might only be usable by the South East Trains services, to avoid
crossing movements, but that's better than nothing (I note that they
keep crossing anyway, but I thought that might be to avoid Eurostars
when they ran).

According to PSUL
http://www.avoe05.dsl.pipex.com/2008.htm
all but one up train, and most down trains to and from the Catford Loop use
the Atlantic Lines (over the top of Brixton). By using teh Atlantic Lines a
4-track approach to Victoria (Chatham side) has been contrived. Trains via
Herne Hill use the Fast Lines between Victoria and Voltaire Road Junction
(between Wandsworth Road and Clapham High Street). Down trains via Nunhead
normally run on the Down Slow to Battersea Pier Junction, and the Reversible
from there to Voltaire Road Junction, where they cross to the Down Atlantic,
then cross back to the Catford Loop at Crofton Road Junction (short of
Peckham Rye). Up Catford Loop trains cross to the Atlantic Lines at Crofton
Road Junction, then at Factory Junction take the Low Level route via
Stewarts Lane, joining the Up Slow at Battersea Pier Junction.

Peter

ELLX phase 2
 

On Jan 23, 8:31*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"MIG" wrote

Ah yes, I got the names the wrong way round. *I was wondering about
the possibility of extending that stub and putting a platform on the
opposite side. *I guessed that there had been platforms there in the
past.

It might only be usable by the South East Trains services, to avoid
crossing movements, but that's better than nothing (I note that they
keep crossing anyway, but I thought that might be to avoid Eurostars
when they ran).

According to PSULhttp://www.avoe05.dsl.pipex.com/2008.htm
all but one up train, and most down trains to and from the Catford Loop use
the Atlantic Lines (over the top of Brixton). By using teh Atlantic Lines a
4-track approach to Victoria (Chatham side) has been contrived. Trains via
Herne Hill use the Fast Lines between Victoria and Voltaire Road Junction
(between Wandsworth Road and Clapham High Street). Down trains via Nunhead
normally run on the Down Slow to Battersea Pier Junction, and the Reversible
from there to Voltaire Road Junction, where they cross to the Down Atlantic,
then cross back to the Catford Loop at Crofton Road Junction (short of
Peckham Rye). Up Catford Loop trains cross to the Atlantic Lines at Crofton
Road Junction, then at Factory Junction take the Low Level route via
Stewarts Lane, joining the Up Slow at Battersea Pier Junction.

Peter

That corresponds to my casual observation, but I was hoping for
change. I suppose the extra Orpingtons have eaten up the Eurostar
paths.

ELLX phase 2
 

MIG wrote:

On Jan 23, 6:40�pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"MIG" wrote


I am very much in favour of a walkable Brixton interchange, no matter
what. I believe that East Brixton station fell off at some point, but
there might still be space. Not the best location though, as has been
mentioned. I wonder about the possibility of creating full platforms
on the Atlantic(?) lines no longer used by Eurostar

More on East Brixton station here - it closed in 1976.
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...on/index.shtml

AFAICS, both from track and street level, there isn't anything
(buildings etc) that would prevent a new station from being
constructed at this location.


The Atlantic Lines are the ex-Brighton or South London pair, which went
through East brixton and go over the top of Brixton. To include platforms,
the best location would be on the bridge over Brixton station, but it would
involve replacing the bridge with one which included platforms, and you'd
need four lifts down to the Brixton platforms for a full range of
interchange, plus lifts down to ground level.

There used (pre-1916) to be platforms on the Catford Loop lines, but
platforms here would be operationally inconvenient (the South London and
most of the Dartford - Victoria trains use the Atlantic Lines), and probably
would be as difficult and expensive to provide. One of the bronze passengers
is still waiting to catch a train from the stub of the Up Catford Loop
platform. I can't quickly find a photo of that one, but here is one of the
other bronze passengers.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/karen_c...-7215760085313...


Ah yes, I got the names the wrong way round. I was wondering about
the possibility of extending that stub and putting a platform on the
opposite side. I guessed that there had been platforms there in the
past.

It might only be usable by the South East Trains services, to avoid
crossing movements, but that's better than nothing (I note that they
keep crossing anyway, but I thought that might be to avoid Eurostars
when they ran).


As ever, one has to consider things in terms of costs and benefits.
New platforms at Brixton on the Catford Loop line could only be used
by Southeastern's half-hourly Dartford to Victoria service - and as
Peter says, nowadays this service is almost always routed via the high
viaduct of the Atlantic Lines - though as you say it does end to swap
around, sometimes going through Clapham High Street station, sometimes
not, before then almost always going through Wandsworth Road station
then down via the low level Stewarts Lane route to Grovesnor Bridge
and then Victoria.

However whilst the Eurostars have now gone, some of its former paths
are now taken up by the extra Victoria to Orpington via Herne Hill
services (which is now now every 15 mins off-peak), so shifting these
trains off the Atlantic Lines and on to the Catford Loop lines could
still be a major operational issue.

And expensive new platforms here would only serve this one half-hourly
service (which starts quite late and finishes early - though it
doesn't always have to be like this of course), and many passengers
will be transferring onto the Victoria line at Victoria anyway. Do the
benefits really outweigh the costs?

Platforms on the high level Atlantic lines through Brixton would be
the real top prize. As Peter has already said, they would be very
expensive, but lets pretend for a moment that's not an issue. They
would enable the replacement SLL service (Victoria to Bellingham, all
stations except Battersea Park), as proposed in the South London RUS,
to stop there, as well as the 4tph ELLX (phase 2) service to/from
Clapham Jn. They would be really useful. Perhaps, once the ELLX is up
and running, there might be an ever increasing clamour from many
quarters for such platforms - but it should be remembered that the DfT
doesn't hand out cash willy nilly, there would have to be a very
strong case for it to get funded (and it would have to be DfT money -
TfL doesn't have that kind of spare cash lying around, and anyway half
of TfL's cash comes from a DfT grant). Given that Crossrail is going
to swallow up much of the DfT's spare change, the answer might well be
no anyway.

Perhaps the most doable idea would be that of rebuilding East Brixton
station (one I floated not so long back). It wouldn't really be very
good from an interchange point of view, but it would be great in
providing more transport for the area, and both the ELLX and the new
SLL service could stop there.

ELLX phase 2
 

"Mizter T" wrote

Perhaps the most doable idea would be that of rebuilding East Brixton
station (one I floated not so long back). It wouldn't really be very
good from an interchange point of view, but it would be great in
providing more transport for the area, and both the ELLX and the new
SLL service could stop there.

I'm not sure the benefits would stack up. East Brixton was rather remote
from the heart of Brixton (the market, Brixton (NR) station, and
particularly Brixton (LUL) station. A replacement East Brixton, to modern
standards, would be expensive, if not quite as expensive as a station over
the top of Brixton (NR).

Peter