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Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
U Thant reports on his blog that:
"Another new thing in the fares leaflet is the availability of Railcard discounted fares caps on Oyster PAYG. You'll be able to have your Young Persons, Disabled Persons, HM Forces or Senior Railcard loaded onto your Oyster card (no details how) and from then on the off-peak fares cap for you will be around a third lower than normal (e.g. £3.10 vs £4.80 for Zones 1-2). There doesn't appear to be a discount on peak caps or single journeys." http://londonconnections.blogspot.co...ster-payg.html Does anyone know how this loading process will be done? Will you be able to waltz into any LU ticket office and do it? When does this start, beginning of 2008? -- Michael Hoffman |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
On 15 Dec, 15:57, Michael Hoffman wrote:
U Thant reports on his blog that: "Another new thing in the fares leaflet is the availability of Railcard discounted fares caps on Oyster PAYG. You'll be able to have your Young Persons, Disabled Persons, HM Forces or Senior Railcard loaded onto your Oyster card (no details how) and from then on the off-peak fares cap for you will be around a third lower than normal (e.g. £3.10 vs £4.80 for Zones 1-2). There doesn't appear to be a discount on peak caps or single journeys." http://londonconnections.blogspot.co...discounts-on-o... Does anyone know how this loading process will be done? Will you be able to waltz into any LU ticket office and do it? When does this start, beginning of 2008? -- Michael Hoffman This is also mentioned in he new TfL fares booklet for 2008, available nowon the TfL website. There's a recent thread about this - "Oystercard capping for railcard holders" - on uk.railway. Unfortunately it never got crossposted to utl. It can be read here... http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....4564387cdcead/ Details about exactly how it will all work (or not!) are sketchy, so perhaps it's just a case of wait and see. It'll be interesting to see if London Overground ticket offices will be able to load the discount on to an Oyster card (I'd take it as a given that this will not be possible at "Oyster Ticket Stops" aka newsagents). For reasons I explain in the aforementioned thread, I'd expect that a registered Oyster card will be necessary to take advantage of this. |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
I've got a Student Oyster Card and a Young Person's Railcard... one
giving me a discount on season tickets, the other one on pay as you go tickets (as of January anyway). Am I gonig to have to use two cards or can the two be combined somehow? Oh well, we'll see how it goes. It's a very positive evolution anyway! |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 15:57:07 +0000, Michael Hoffman
wrote: U Thant reports on his blog that: "Another new thing in the fares leaflet is the availability of Railcard discounted fares caps on Oyster PAYG. You'll be able to have your Young Persons, Disabled Persons, HM Forces or Senior Railcard loaded onto your Oyster card (no details how) and from then on the off-peak fares cap for you will be around a third lower than normal (e.g. £3.10 vs £4.80 for Zones 1-2). There doesn't appear to be a discount on peak caps or single journeys." http://londonconnections.blogspot.co...ster-payg.html Does anyone know how this loading process will be done? Will you be able to waltz into any LU ticket office and do it? When does this start, beginning of 2008? Can only be done at LU Ticket Offices with staff using the Ticket Office Machine. Can't be done via a Passenger Operated Machine. Starts from 2/1/08. The Oyster Card must be registered. The railcard number and expiry date are to be recorded and I assume entered into the Oyster card so as to manage entitlement and expiry aspects of the discount. Adult PAYG fares will be charged but there is a discounted daily off peak cap. Note that it is only off peak travel that gains a discount under this system. Adult Railcard Z12 £4.80 £3.10 Z14 £5.40 £3.50 Z16 £6.50 £4.20 Z19 £7.70 £5.00 Z19W £12.60 £8.30 Z26 £4.30 £2.80 Z29 £4.60 £3.00 Z29W £6.60 £4.30 HTH -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
On 15 Dec, 19:23, sweek wrote:
I've got a Student Oyster Card and a Young Person's Railcard... one giving me a discount on season tickets, the other one on pay as you go tickets (as of January anyway). Am I gonig to have to use two cards or can the two be combined somehow? Oh well, we'll see how it goes. It's a very positive evolution anyway! I have no inside information whatsoever, but I'd bet on you being able to have both discounts (Student + YPR) on the one card. After all, there'll be a large number of people in your position, so it's hardly something that the fares people won't have considered. |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 15:57:07 +0000, Michael Hoffman wrote: U Thant reports on his blog that: "Another new thing in the fares leaflet is the availability of Railcard discounted fares caps on Oyster PAYG. You'll be able to have your Young Persons, Disabled Persons, HM Forces or Senior Railcard loaded onto your Oyster card (no details how) and from then on the off-peak fares cap for you will be around a third lower than normal (e.g. GBP3.10 vs GBP4.80 for Zones 1-2). There doesn't appear to be a discount on peak caps or single journeys." http://londonconnections.blogspot.co...ster-payg.html Does anyone know how this loading process will be done? Will you be able to waltz into any LU ticket office and do it? When does this start, beginning of 2008? Can only be done at LU Ticket Offices with staff using the Ticket Office Machine. Can't be done via a Passenger Operated Machine. Starts from 2/1/08. The Oyster Card must be registered. The railcard number and expiry date are to be recorded and I assume entered into the Oyster card so as to manage entitlement and expiry aspects of the discount. Thanks for the info. I wonder if TfL might share a limited amount of information with ATOC for the administration of this - e.g. attempt to match up the registered Oyster card holder with the details given for the Railcard holder? I'm also wondering whether such users will have to carry their Railcard with them as well? Whilst not technically necessary, I'd presume that they would, otherwise there's the potential for fraud. If the Railcard number is entered on to the Oyster card, then if the Railcard gets replaced after being stolen/lost, the holder would presumably have to go and update the details held on the Oyster card so that they tally with the replacement Railcard. There would also have to be a mechanism whereby the Railcard discount flag on an Oyster cards could be revoked at the request of the holder, if for example they've lost their Railcard and don't get a replacement. Adult PAYG fares will be charged but there is a discounted daily off peak cap. Note that it is only off peak travel that gains a discount under this system. Which makes sense as the Railcards only offer reductions for off-peak Day Travelcards. Those who have a Railcard discount on their Oyster will find there are even more journey combinations where they'll pay a pre-0930 peak time fare or two and then be capped at the relevant off-peak cap for the rest of their day's travels. Adult Railcard Z12 �4.80 �3.10 Z14 �5.40 �3.50 Z16 �6.50 �4.20 Z19 �7.70 �5.00 Z19W �12.60 �8.30 Z26 �4.30 �2.80 Z29 �4.60 �3.00 Z29W �6.60 �4.30 HTH -- Paul C Aha, the first sighting of the thus far elusive "zone W" (for Watford Junction) in a fares table! Do you have the non-discounted capping levels for "zone W" fares at all? |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
Paul Corfield wrote:
Can only be done at LU Ticket Offices with staff using the Ticket Office Machine. Can't be done via a Passenger Operated Machine. Starts from 2/1/08. The Oyster Card must be registered. The railcard number and expiry date are to be recorded and I assume entered into the Oyster card so as to manage entitlement and expiry aspects of the discount. Thanks a lot for the info, Paul. -- Michael Hoffman |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 13:45:00 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: [snip] Thanks for the info. I wonder if TfL might share a limited amount of information with ATOC for the administration of this - e.g. attempt to match up the registered Oyster card holder with the details given for the Railcard holder? I doubt it. The policy to use ticket offices for this encoding task is contrary to the general policy of reducing sales via ticket offices. I don't even know if ATOC maintain any sort of database for railcard sales and I can't see money being spent of sharing info or trying to link databases. I'm also wondering whether such users will have to carry their Railcard with them as well? Whilst not technically necessary, I'd presume that they would, otherwise there's the potential for fraud. The document I have seen makes no mention of the detailed rules but it would seem sensible that they do. If the Railcard number is entered on to the Oyster card, then if the Railcard gets replaced after being stolen/lost, the holder would presumably have to go and update the details held on the Oyster card so that they tally with the replacement Railcard. There would also have to be a mechanism whereby the Railcard discount flag on an Oyster cards could be revoked at the request of the holder, if for example they've lost their Railcard and don't get a replacement. I suspect the simplest functionality will simply switch off the discount after the expiry date. To maintain or remove the discount entitlement I'd guess the customer will have to go back to a ticket office for reactivation for a further year / cancellation (as appropriate). I doubt the system will generate any message to the passenger advising of the impending end of validity or any other message. Adult Railcard Z12 ?4.80 ?3.10 Z14 ?5.40 ?3.50 Z16 ?6.50 ?4.20 Z19 ?7.70 ?5.00 Z19W ?12.60 ?8.30 Z26 ?4.30 ?2.80 Z29 ?4.60 ?3.00 Z29W ?6.60 ?4.30 Aha, the first sighting of the thus far elusive "zone W" (for Watford Junction) in a fares table! Note that "W" is not going to be advertised to the public or used on any publicity. The info is from an internal publication. Do you have the non-discounted capping levels for "zone W" fares at all? rummage Pk Adult Pk Child Pk 16+/New deal NR Railcard Z18W £17.10 £8.30 £8.30 £17.10 Z28W £11.30 £3.00 £5.60 £11.30 OP Adult OP Child OP 16+/New Deal NR Railcard Z18W £12.60 £6.00 £6.00 £8.30 Z28W £6.60 £2.00 £3.30 £4.30 -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
Paul Corfield wrote:
I doubt it. The policy to use ticket offices for this encoding task is contrary to the general policy of reducing sales via ticket offices. I don't even know if ATOC maintain any sort of database for railcard sales They definitely do. I've even received junk mail because of it. -- Michael Hoffman |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
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Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
On 16 Dec, 00:13, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
(Paul Corfield) wrote: Adult PAYG fares will be charged but there is a discounted daily off peak cap. Note that it is only off peak travel that gains a discount under this system. Off-peak being defined how for this purpose, pray? With regards to daily capping, the peak period has always been 0430 to 0930 weekdays except public holidays (0430 being the start of the charging day for Oyster PAYG purposes, and 0930 the traditional end of the peak period - for example with regards to off-peak Travelcards). The two periods when different Oyster PAYG fares are payable - i.e. more expensive during weekday daytimes (7am - 7pm) and less at all other times - have never been described as peak or off-peak, presumably so as not to confuse the situation with the above definition of peak. However all is not clear - there is something I've been intending to query with regards to the new 2008 TfL Fares booklet - available here as a PDF... http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-08-01-02.pdf On page 17, underneath the table for the different Oyster daily capping rates, there is this text - the first bit about peak/off-peak times is exactly the same as I described above, it's the second bit about London Overground (LO) that's interesting... ---quote--- On the Tube and DLR: peak times are 0430-0930 Monday to Friday (except Public Holidays). Off-Peak is at all other times. For details of peak and off-peak times on London Overground, please see page 21. ---/quote--- OK, let's turn to page 21. There's a table of Oyster PAYG fares for London Overground - and at the top of the table is the description for the two columns - "(Monday to Friday from 0700 and before 1900)*" and then "(All other times including public holidays)". If we follow the asterisk to the text under the column, we'll find this intriguing footnote: ---quote--- *For local journeys, Watford Junction to Euston inclusive, these fares apply as follows: Towards Euston: Monday to Friday from 0700 and before 0930. From Euston: Monday to Friday from 1600 and before 1900. ---/quote--- I'm genuinely confused as to what that means - it could mean that all journeys on the Watford Jn - Euston line will be treated differently to the rest of LU and LO in not just simply charging the more expensive PAYG fare between 7am-7pm - in which case Bakerloo passengers would also benefit from these cheaper fares on the shared stretches. Or it could mean that all journeys from or to Watford Jn only will be treated in this manner. This is what I think it might be trying to say, not least because the Watford Jn (or "zone W" in internal TfL communications only) to Euston fares will be higher than other fares, as they have to be agreed with London Midland. The problem is that this fares booklet then doesn't publish those fares at all. (And this would mean that Oyster PAYG fares from Watford Jn are set to increase, as currently Watford Jn - Euston is £5.50, the same price as Watford High St/zone 8 to Euston/zone 1.) I'm really not sure about all that - and I haven't even got to the bit about daily capping! I'm sure that, as with LU, these different charging period for Oyster PAYG on London Overground won't affect the fundamentals of daily price capping - i.e. that the peak period for capping is 0430 to 0930 weekdays (except public holidays), all other times are off-peak. Of course, as Watford Junction isn't in a zone ("zone W" being a term solely intended for internal TfL use) then things get complicated here. I suppose every journey to/from Watford Jn will be charged, and there won't be any capping - thus someone who goes between Watford Jn and Euston several times a day will be capped at the zones 1-8 cap, plus will have a boundary zone 8 to Watford Jn fare charged on top of that (which I guess could be the same as a Watford High St - Watford Jn fare). I really don't know - I can see all sorts of possibilities, but without exact information on how things will be working to/from Watford Junction, including a table of fares and confirmation of whether there will be a "zone W" cap or not, it's all just speculation. Paul C - can you help!!! |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
OK, I've had a little think and realise that a couple of the
presumptions I made in my last post were probably a bit wide of the mark, so I'm going to correct myself here! Note that the other points and queries I made in my other post still stand. Mizter T wrote: (big snip) OK, let's turn to page 21. There's a table of Oyster PAYG fares for London Overground - and at the top of the table is the description for the two columns - "(Monday to Friday from 0700 and before 1900)*" and then "(All other times including public holidays)". If we follow the asterisk to the text under the column, we'll find this intriguing footnote: ---quote--- *For local journeys, Watford Junction to Euston inclusive, these fares apply as follows: Towards Euston: Monday to Friday from 0700 and before 0930. From Euston: Monday to Friday from 1600 and before 1900. ---/quote--- I'm genuinely confused as to what that means - it could mean that all journeys on the Watford Jn - Euston line will be treated differently to the rest of LU and LO in not just simply charging the more expensive PAYG fare between 7am-7pm - in which case Bakerloo passengers would also benefit from these cheaper fares on the shared stretches. I think, on reflection (given the use of the term"Watford Jn to Euston inclusive") the above explanation is perhaps the more likely - i.e. that the cheaper Oyster PAYG prices will apply on this line after 9:30am until 4pm, then again from 7pm. I presume the Euston - Watford line is not heavily loaded during the day, so cheaper prices for daytime travel might attract patronage. If this is the case, then they're not doing a very good job of actually explaining it to anyone! And why do they use the term "local journeys"? Perhaps the booklet was written, approved and printed before London Midland agreed to accept Oyster PAYG on their trains between Watford Jn and Euston/ Harrow & Wealdstone - so the phrase "local journeys" was meant to mean travel on London Overground services only (because only loonies would take the LO stopper all the way to Euston!). Or it could mean that all journeys from or to Watford Jn only will be treated in this manner. This is what I think it might be trying to say, not least because the Watford Jn (or "zone W" in internal TfL communications only) to Euston fares will be higher than other fares, as they have to be agreed with London Midland. The problem is that this fares booklet then doesn't publish those fares at all. (And this would mean that Oyster PAYG fares from Watford Jn are set to increase, as currently Watford Jn - Euston is �5.50, the same price as Watford High St/zone 8 to Euston/zone 1.) And as a result of my reflection I now don't think that what I say above is in fact the right explanation. The question of what fares will be charged and when for journeys on the Watford - Euston line remains somewhat unclear - and the question of what fares will be charged when a passenger starts or finishes at Watford Junction remains a very murky one! Also will there be a "zone W" daily cap? And lastly there is the reference on page 17 of the TfL Fares booklet, which hints that peak and off-peak times for daily capping might be different on London Overground and refers readers to page 21. I just can't imagine that the times for the peak/off-peak cap will be any different whatsoever if a passenger travels on London Overground than if they travelled on LU or the DLR, which leads me to think this is somewhat misleading. All that said, I might be a complete idiot and have got it all wrong. |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
On 16 Dec, 01:06, Mizter T wrote:
I'm genuinely confused as to what that means - it could mean that all journeys on the Watford Jn - Euston line will be treated differently to the rest of LU and LO in not just simply charging the more expensive PAYG fare between 7am-7pm - in which case Bakerloo passengers would also benefit from these cheaper fares on the shared stretches. This document has the formal list of new fares (7MB PDF): http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-dec-2007.pdf Everything between Watford Junction and Zone is set by London Midland rather LO. I'd assume far more customers use the former for this journey. It does mention (paraphrasing) "The standard fare is charged 7am-7pm; discount fares at other times; Discount fares will _also_ apply at other times for certain journeys to or from Euston". Though as in the booklet, the actual fares aren't mentioned. I really don't know - I can see all sorts of possibilities, but without exact information on how things will be working to/from Watford Junction, including a table of fares and confirmation of whether there will be a "zone W" cap or not, it's all just speculation. The 1-W cap is listed as also being London Midland's responsibility, so may exist. Zone n-W (where n1) caps aren't mentioned at all. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
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Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 17:06:18 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote: However all is not clear - there is something I've been intending to query with regards to the new 2008 TfL Fares booklet - available here as a PDF... http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-08-01-02.pdf On page 17, underneath the table for the different Oyster daily capping rates, there is this text - the first bit about peak/off-peak times is exactly the same as I described above, it's the second bit about London Overground (LO) that's interesting... ---quote--- On the Tube and DLR: peak times are 0430-0930 Monday to Friday (except Public Holidays). Off-Peak is at all other times. For details of peak and off-peak times on London Overground, please see page 21. ---/quote--- OK, let's turn to page 21. There's a table of Oyster PAYG fares for London Overground - and at the top of the table is the description for the two columns - "(Monday to Friday from 0700 and before 1900)*" and then "(All other times including public holidays)". If we follow the asterisk to the text under the column, we'll find this intriguing footnote: ---quote--- *For local journeys, Watford Junction to Euston inclusive, these fares apply as follows: Towards Euston: Monday to Friday from 0700 and before 0930. From Euston: Monday to Friday from 1600 and before 1900. ---/quote--- I'm genuinely confused as to what that means - it could mean that all journeys on the Watford Jn - Euston line will be treated differently to the rest of LU and LO in not just simply charging the more expensive PAYG fare between 7am-7pm - in which case Bakerloo passengers would also benefit from these cheaper fares on the shared stretches. It means exactly this. If you stay on the Euston - Watford line then you benefit from these lower PAYG charges irrespective of operator. However as soon as step off the line either by changing to LU at Queens Park, LOROL at Willesden (NLL / WLL) or LU at Euston you immediately resume the normal charge rates between 0700 and 1900 M-F. In effect outside the peaks or peak direction you're on the weekend charge rates as I understand matters for the Euston - Watford service. This is the first real application of differential fares by time and direction. I think it will take some time for people to be accustomed to it and I can see the potential for confusion when people change operators and see their overall through fare rise if they re-enter or exit the system at times when the higher charges apply. This will be particularly the case if people are travelling near the shoulders of either the Watford line time bands or the wider time bands applicable to the main charging rates for PAYG (near to 0700 and near to 1900). For example travelling from say South Kenton into Zone 1 via Euston you might wish to linger a little if you arrived at Euston at 18.50 before heading to the Tube as you'd get the cheaper price all the way through if you re-entered after 1900. That's certainly how it has been explained to me by someone who took the time to phone me to point out these issues. Of course, as Watford Junction isn't in a zone ("zone W" being a term solely intended for internal TfL use) then things get complicated here. I suppose every journey to/from Watford Jn will be charged, and there won't be any capping - thus someone who goes between Watford Jn and Euston several times a day will be capped at the zones 1-8 cap, plus will have a boundary zone 8 to Watford Jn fare charged on top of that (which I guess could be the same as a Watford High St - Watford Jn fare). Go back and read the prices that I published at your request in an earlier post. Yes there are caps that apply specifically to Watford Junction - they were in the post!!!!!! I really don't know - I can see all sorts of possibilities, but without exact information on how things will be working to/from Watford Junction, including a table of fares and confirmation of whether there will be a "zone W" cap or not, it's all just speculation. Paul C - can you help!!! There isn't space to replicate all the pricing information but there are prices for Travelcards, PAYG charge rates and caps that apply for all applicable zone combinations within the zones plus a smaller range of Zones to "W". If you stop and think about it there have to be or else none of this works properly. As Mr Thant has explained the complication undoubtedly arises because pricing for the line remains with the main TOC - London Midland. As I have said until I am blue in the face the whole PAYG interface with the TOCs will be immensely complicated because of their retained rights to price their traffic flows. There has to be some sort of "logic" between the various pricing regimes or else it becomes a nonsense. What's perhaps concerning (IMO) is that this first major application doesn't seem very logical although to be fair to London Midland none of us know what the cash fares will be or how cheap day travel will be priced for cash payers. All existing Overground literature is almost silent about the fact that cash fares and cheap day tickets are available across the network - it's being portrayed that the only game in town is PAYG with Travelcards in second place. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
I was rather hoping to get online and post here and correct myself
before you did - so I would be the one pointing out I'm an idiot, rather than anyone else! Unfortunately commitments this morning meant I couldn't. Anyway I'm holding my head in shame at having written posts late last night that I thought were filled with pertinent questions, but were (as I can see in the cold light of day) in fact filled with a demonstration my inability to read previous answers and go through th erelevant information and then put 2 and 2 together! I perhaps wasn't quite at my sharpest last night! Paul Corfield wrote: On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 17:06:18 -0800 (PST), Mizter T wrote: However all is not clear - there is something I've been intending to query with regards to the new 2008 TfL Fares booklet - available here as a PDF... http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-08-01-02.pdf On page 17, underneath the table for the different Oyster daily capping rates, there is this text - the first bit about peak/off-peak times is exactly the same as I described above, it's the second bit about London Overground (LO) that's interesting... ---quote--- On the Tube and DLR: peak times are 0430-0930 Monday to Friday (except Public Holidays). Off-Peak is at all other times. For details of peak and off-peak times on London Overground, please see page 21. ---/quote--- OK, let's turn to page 21. There's a table of Oyster PAYG fares for London Overground - and at the top of the table is the description for the two columns - "(Monday to Friday from 0700 and before 1900)*" and then "(All other times including public holidays)". If we follow the asterisk to the text under the column, we'll find this intriguing footnote: ---quote--- *For local journeys, Watford Junction to Euston inclusive, these fares apply as follows: Towards Euston: Monday to Friday from 0700 and before 0930. From Euston: Monday to Friday from 1600 and before 1900. ---/quote--- I'm genuinely confused as to what that means - it could mean that all journeys on the Watford Jn - Euston line will be treated differently to the rest of LU and LO in not just simply charging the more expensive PAYG fare between 7am-7pm - in which case Bakerloo passengers would also benefit from these cheaper fares on the shared stretches. It means exactly this. If you stay on the Euston - Watford line then you benefit from these lower PAYG charges irrespective of operator. However as soon as step off the line either by changing to LU at Queens Park, LOROL at Willesden (NLL / WLL) or LU at Euston you immediately resume the normal charge rates between 0700 and 1900 M-F. In effect outside the peaks or peak direction you're on the weekend charge rates as I understand matters for the Euston - Watford service. This is the first real application of differential fares by time and direction. I think it will take some time for people to be accustomed to it and I can see the potential for confusion when people change operators and see their overall through fare rise if they re-enter or exit the system at times when the higher charges apply. This will be particularly the case if people are travelling near the shoulders of either the Watford line time bands or the wider time bands applicable to the main charging rates for PAYG (near to 0700 and near to 1900). For example travelling from say South Kenton into Zone 1 via Euston you might wish to linger a little if you arrived at Euston at 18.50 before heading to the Tube as you'd get the cheaper price all the way through if you re-entered after 1900. That's certainly how it has been explained to me by someone who took the time to phone me to point out these issues. Thanks, thanks for the confirmation (I think I'd deciphered this by the time I'd replied to myself!). So Watford - Euston line PAYG fares will be at the cheaper (in internal TfL lingo "discount") PAYG rate for much of the day. I wonder if the text shouldn't say "Towards Watford Junction" rather than "From Euston" to indicate the evening peak flow - "From Euston" could be misconstrued to mean just journeys that start from Euston. This will be interesting. I can imagine it will confuse people - for example those doing short local journeys in the 'wrong' direction. Let's say a parent goes to pick their child up from primary school from Bushey to Hatch End. Their return journey (after 4pm) will be charged at the higher rate, though I bet the trains that far out aren't that busy at that time, and perhaps not any busier in one direction to the other. Interesting scenario you put forward with regards to arriving in Euston pre-7pm and then waiting for 7pm before entering the LU network so as to ensure the whole PAYG fare is at the discount rate. Starting from Harrow & Wealdstone the PAYG fare difference is more pronounced - either £3.50 or £2 discounted. For those savvy to this distinction, they might in fact prefer to travel on the Watford - Euston line rather than the Bakerloo simply to take advantage of this. But nonetheless it sounds like a good plan. It's communicating it to the punters that's the challenge - especially if there going to be as dense as I was being! Lastly, if I'm right in understanding this all, PAYG journeys starting or finishing at Watford Jn will be priced by London Midland - I'm still a bit unclear as to whether these journeys will be cheaper on weekdays between 0930 and 1600, as will be the case with all other journeys on the Watford - Euston line. Of course, as Watford Junction isn't in a zone ("zone W" being a term solely intended for internal TfL use) then things get complicated here. I suppose every journey to/from Watford Jn will be charged, and there won't be any capping - thus someone who goes between Watford Jn and Euston several times a day will be capped at the zones 1-8 cap, plus will have a boundary zone 8 to Watford Jn fare charged on top of that (which I guess could be the same as a Watford High St - Watford Jn fare). Go back and read the prices that I published at your request in an earlier post. Yes there are caps that apply specifically to Watford Junction - they were in the post!!!!!! Sorry, I'm not really sure what I was thinking - I managed to desperately ask questions that had already clearly been answered - and answered by your good self, at my request no less. Evidently I just wasn't thinking! Without a doubt I win the utl dunce of the month award for that. I really don't know - I can see all sorts of possibilities, but without exact information on how things will be working to/from Watford Junction, including a table of fares and confirmation of whether there will be a "zone W" cap or not, it's all just speculation. Paul C - can you help!!! There isn't space to replicate all the pricing information but there are prices for Travelcards, PAYG charge rates and caps that apply for all applicable zone combinations within the zones plus a smaller range of Zones to "W". If you stop and think about it there have to be or else none of this works properly. As Mr Thant has explained the complication undoubtedly arises because pricing for the line remains with the main TOC - London Midland. As I have said until I am blue in the face the whole PAYG interface with the TOCs will be immensely complicated because of their retained rights to price their traffic flows. There has to be some sort of "logic" between the various pricing regimes or else it becomes a nonsense. What's perhaps concerning (IMO) is that this first major application doesn't seem very logical although to be fair to London Midland none of us know what the cash fares will be or how cheap day travel will be priced for cash payers. That all makes sense, of course. So, just to be clear, for a simple minded soul like myself, the PAYG prices for single journeys to/from Watford Jn will be set by London Midland, and has already been decided, but doesn't feature in the TfL 2008 fares booklet. The current Watford Jn - Euston PAYG price of £5.50/ £3 was presumably set by TfL *before* London Midland agreed to accept Oyster PAYG from Watford Jn. Therefore the control over setting this fare will in fact be passing from TfL to London Midland, right? If so this would surely have knock-on implications for the other PAYG fares from Watford Jn, such as a simple Watford Jn to Watford High St fare, or Watford Jn to Harrow & Wealdstone - PAYG fares that thus far have been set solely by TfL. All existing Overground literature is almost silent about the fact that cash fares and cheap day tickets are available across the network - it's being portrayed that the only game in town is PAYG with Travelcards in second place. -- Paul C Indeed. (The following fares info is sourced from the Avantix Traveller program.) What those cash fares will be is interesting - as since January 2007, fares between Harrow & Wealdstone and Queens Park have all followed the LU principle of charging £3 for a cash fare outside of z1, and £4 for a cash fare for travel to zone 1 (i.e. to Euston). Similarly from South Hampstead up to H&W all cash single fares are £3. However whilst SDR are priced at double that - as they would be on LU, where a return is twice the single fare - CDRs are currently available at prices closer to the single fare. I'd also be intrigued to know if a single £4 ticket to Euston sold at (for example) Kenton is sold as a through LU zonal fare, so it could be used for onward travel from Euston on LU, or if it is sold as a standard point-to-point NR fare. Of course, Kenton and all the other stations (apart from Willesden Jn) are now run by LU, so perhaps such a ticket would be issued as if it were an LU fares nowadays - but under the old Silverlink regime, I wonder if they were? And what happens at Willesden Jn, where the ticket offices are run by LOROL. I'm just pondering whether punters could hand over £4 and end up with two very different tickets - one a simple singe to Euston, the other a through LU fare for onwards Underground travel - depending upon whether they specify they actually specify they want onwards travel or not. In addition I should point out that Railcard discounts are available on the £3 or £4 fares on the Watford Jn - Euston line, but if a ticket was issued with Railcard discount, then presumably it would have to be issued as a point-to-point NR ticket to Euston, as plain-vanilla LU cash fares cannot be discounted with a Railcard. I'm also left wondering whether the LU fare scale might at some point be applied to the NLL and WLL, at least with regards to single tickets - i.e. £3 for a single ticket - as has been done on the Watford - Euston line. The question of whether tickets are issued as zonal fares (ala LU) or as NR specified point-to-point tickets is also interesting. Tickets printed as zonal fares do allow for flexibility, but they are perhaps arguably more open to misuse (i.e. reused for several journeys during the day) on routes where many stations still don't have ticket gates, as is the case with a number of stations on the NLL (though gates have gone in at many points). Of course a point-to-point return ticket can still be misused/reused as well, especially as the rules allow for breaks of journey - but perhaps misuse is harder to spot, and they don't allow a subsequent ride on the Underground either. (Do LU issued single fares get rejected by the gates if a long period has elapsed from the time when they were purchased?) |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
For
example travelling from say South Kenton into Zone 1 via Euston you might wish to linger a little if you arrived at Euston at 18.50 before heading to the Tube as you'd get the cheaper price all the way through if you re-entered after 1900. Will it really work that way? As far as I have understood the oyster system, the fare is calculated between the touch-in and the touch-out point, and touches in between will be ignored. So in that particular case, as the touch-in is before 10:00, the higher price will be charged. The only chance to take advantage of this is to break the journey into two separate journeys - which is not that easy as Euston is an open interchange. |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
On 16 Dec, 14:23, Martin Krieger wrote:
For example travelling from say South Kenton into Zone 1 via Euston you might wish to linger a little if you arrived at Euston at 18.50 before heading to the Tube as you'd get the cheaper price all the way through if you re-entered after 1900. Will it really work that way? As far as I have understood the oyster system, the fare is calculated between the touch-in and the touch-out point, and touches in between will be ignored. So in that particular case, as the touch-in is before 10:00, the higher price will be charged. The only chance to take advantage of this is to break the journey into two separate journeys - which is not that easy as Euston is an open interchange. I'm a bit confused by where you've got 10:00 from, and what you mean by Euston being an "open interchange". Nevertheless I'll attempt to pad out the scenario that Paul was outlining... Touch-in at South Kenton at 18:15 for the 18:21 London Overground train to Euston. Arrive at Euston at 18:50. This part of the journey will be charged at the 'discount' Oyster fare of £2, not the 'standard' fare of £2.50, because of the special arrangement on the Watford - Euston line that means the cheaper fare is in force in this direction (towards Euston) from 0930 onwards on weekdays. Thus far, the Oyster system considers one to be on a 'discount' fare. If the passenger then enters the LU network at Euston (or Euston Square, as it is a valid out-of-station interchange with Euston UIVMM) for an onward journey to somewhere else - for argument's sake let's say it is somewhere within zones 1 to 4 - before 1900 then the Oyster system will revert to charging them a full fare of £2.50 for the through journey when they exit the system and finish their journey. If however they wait around in Euston for a few minutes (perhaps counting how many pigeons are actually inside the building) then enter the LU network after 1900 the Oyster system will still regard them as travelling on a 'discount' fare and will only charge them £2 when they exit the system and finish the journey. |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
Will it really work that way? As far as I have understood the oyster
system, the fare is calculated between the touch-in and the touch-out point, and touches in between will be ignored. So in that particular case, as the touch-in is before 10:00, the higher price will be charged. The only chance to take advantage of this is to break the journey into two separate journeys - which is not that easy as Euston is an open interchange. I'm a bit confused by where you've got 10:00 from, and what you mean by Euston being an "open interchange". Nevertheless I'll attempt to pad out the scenario that Paul was outlining... Sorry, the 10:00 was a typo, should have been 19:00. And by "open interchange" I meant an out of station (need to go through barriers) interchange. Touch-in at South Kenton at 18:15 for the 18:21 London Overground train to Euston. Arrive at Euston at 18:50. This part of the journey will be charged at the 'discount' Oyster fare of £2, not the 'standard' fare of £2.50, because of the special arrangement on the Watford - Euston line that means the cheaper fare is in force in this direction (towards Euston) from 0930 onwards on weekdays. Thus far, the Oyster system considers one to be on a 'discount' fare. If the passenger then enters the LU network at Euston (or Euston Square, as it is a valid out-of-station interchange with Euston UIVMM) for an onward journey to somewhere else - for argument's sake let's say it is somewhere within zones 1 to 4 - before 1900 then the Oyster system will revert to charging them a full fare of £2.50 for the through journey when they exit the system and finish their journey. If however they wait around in Euston for a few minutes (perhaps counting how many pigeons are actually inside the building) then enter the LU network after 1900 the Oyster system will still regard them as travelling on a 'discount' fare and will only charge them £2 when they exit the system and finish the journey. Yes, that's what Paul said. But this would mean that the time of the interchange would be taken into account when calculating the fare. As this is against the usual way of calculating PAYG fares I have some doubts that it really works that way. Maybe Paul could be so kind and recheck this? Anyway, next year we will see how it really works. |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
On 16 Dec, 15:42, Martin Krieger wrote:
Will it really work that way? As far as I have understood the oyster system, the fare is calculated between the touch-in and the touch-out point, and touches in between will be ignored. So in that particular case, as the touch-in is before 10:00, the higher price will be charged.. The only chance to take advantage of this is to break the journey into two separate journeys - which is not that easy as Euston is an open interchange. I'm a bit confused by where you've got 10:00 from, and what you mean by Euston being an "open interchange". Nevertheless I'll attempt to pad out the scenario that Paul was outlining... Sorry, the 10:00 was a typo, should have been 19:00. And by "open interchange" I meant an out of station (need to go through barriers) interchange. Touch-in at South Kenton at 18:15 for the 18:21 London Overground train to Euston. Arrive at Euston at 18:50. This part of the journey will be charged at the 'discount' Oyster fare of £2, not the 'standard' fare of £2.50, because of the special arrangement on the Watford - Euston line that means the cheaper fare is in force in this direction (towards Euston) from 0930 onwards on weekdays. Thus far, the Oyster system considers one to be on a 'discount' fare. If the passenger then enters the LU network at Euston (or Euston Square, as it is a valid out-of-station interchange with Euston UIVMM) for an onward journey to somewhere else - for argument's sake let's say it is somewhere within zones 1 to 4 - before 1900 then the Oyster system will revert to charging them a full fare of £2.50 for the through journey when they exit the system and finish their journey. If however they wait around in Euston for a few minutes (perhaps counting how many pigeons are actually inside the building) then enter the LU network after 1900 the Oyster system will still regard them as travelling on a 'discount' fare and will only charge them £2 when they exit the system and finish the journey. Yes, that's what Paul said. But this would mean that the time of the interchange would be taken into account when calculating the fare. As this is against the usual way of calculating PAYG fares I have some doubts that it really works that way. Maybe Paul could be so kind and recheck this? With regards to "the time of the interchange", in a sense one could say the Oyster system would consider thus hypothetical passenger from South Kenton to have already been travelling after 1900 (even though they weren't) - as they were travelling on the 'discount' rate - so as long as they enter the LU network at Euston/Euston Square after 1900 the system will simply regard it as a continuation of a 'discount' rate journey. Anyway, next year we will see how it really works. Indeed. TfL will certainly take some money off me (indeed they already have) for totally unnecessary journeys that I make as a result of testing these theories on the ground! |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 06:49:59 -0800 (PST),
Mizter T wrote: Touch-in at South Kenton at 18:15 for the 18:21 London Overground train to Euston. Arrive at Euston at 18:50. This part of the journey will be charged at the 'discount' Oyster fare of £2, not the 'standard' fare of £2.50, because of the special arrangement on the Watford - Euston line that means the cheaper fare is in force in this direction (towards Euston) from 0930 onwards on weekdays. Thus far, the Oyster system considers one to be on a 'discount' fare. If the passenger then enters the LU network at Euston (or Euston Square, as it is a valid out-of-station interchange with Euston UIVMM) for an onward journey to somewhere else - for argument's sake let's say it is somewhere within zones 1 to 4 - before 1900 then the Oyster system will revert to charging them a full fare of £2.50 for the through journey when they exit the system and finish their journey. If however they wait around in Euston for a few minutes (perhaps counting how many pigeons are actually inside the building) then enter the LU network after 1900 the Oyster system will still regard them as travelling on a 'discount' fare and will only charge them £2 when they exit the system and finish the journey. Presumably they have to hang around on the platform before touching out at Euston (Overground). Otherwise they'll get charged a Euston-wherever single. This came up in another thread. Watford Junction - Zone 1 is 6.00 Watford Junction to Euston is 3.00 off peak. So will someone need two oyster cards to say do WJ-Z1 after 9.30 for 4.50? Or how long will they have to hang around at Euston? My partner quite often does WJ-KX to catch a 12:30 train. Now she always walks Euston-KX but if, say, it was pouring with rain and she decided to take the tube, how much would it cost?. I suspect there are even more weird cases - consider someone doing Watford Junction - Zone1 entering WJ at 9:15. Their cheapest fare for the journey will be 6:00 but, if they do enough journeys towards their offpeak cap later in the day the cheapest option might actually be plus . Presumably this situation already applies for some out of station interchanges. How is it handled? I also pointed out in another thread that WJ-Z1 changing at Willesden Junction can be dramatically cheaper than the direct fare - 9:30 to 19:00 it will cost 3:00 rather than 4:50 (or 6:00?). Of course it will take about 30 minutes longer to do this journey. Presumably there must already be on platform oyster readers for people transferring from the old Silverlink Metro to the Bakerloo line? I've just done a Watford Junction to Baker Street on the Journey planner and it basically has this journey except that it suggests the change happens at South Kenton. Tim. -- God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light. http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/ |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
On 16 Dec, 14:05, Mizter T wrote:
I was rather hoping to get online and post here and correct myself before you did - so I would be the one pointing out I'm an idiot, rather than anyone else! Unfortunately commitments this morning meant I couldn't. Anyway I'm holding my head in shame at having written posts late last night that I thought were filled with pertinent questions, but were (as I can see in the cold light of day) in fact filled with a demonstration my inability to read previous answers and go through th erelevant information and then put 2 and 2 together! I perhaps wasn't quite at my sharpest last night! Paul Corfield wrote: On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 17:06:18 -0800 (PST), Mizter T wrote: However all is not clear - there is something I've been intending to query with regards to the new 2008 TfL Fares booklet - available here as a PDF... http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...nd-tickets-08-.... On page 17, underneath the table for the different Oyster daily capping rates, there is this text - the first bit about peak/off-peak times is exactly the same as I described above, it's the second bit about London Overground (LO) that's interesting... ---quote--- On the Tube and DLR: peak times are 0430-0930 Monday to Friday (except Public Holidays). Off-Peak is at all other times. For details of peak and off-peak times on London Overground, please see page 21. ---/quote--- OK, let's turn to page 21. There's a table of Oyster PAYG fares for London Overground - and at the top of the table is the description for the two columns - "(Monday to Friday from 0700 and before 1900)*" and then "(All other times including public holidays)". If we follow the asterisk to the text under the column, we'll find this intriguing footnote: ---quote--- *For local journeys, Watford Junction to Euston inclusive, these fares apply as follows: Towards Euston: Monday to Friday from 0700 and before 0930. From Euston: Monday to Friday from 1600 and before 1900. ---/quote--- I'm genuinely confused as to what that means - it could mean that all journeys on the Watford Jn - Euston line will be treated differently to the rest of LU and LO in not just simply charging the more expensive PAYG fare between 7am-7pm - in which case Bakerloo passengers would also benefit from these cheaper fares on the shared stretches. It means exactly this. If you stay on the Euston - Watford line then you benefit from these lower PAYG charges irrespective of operator. However as soon as step off the line either by changing to LU at Queens Park, LOROL at Willesden (NLL / WLL) or LU at Euston you immediately resume the normal charge rates between 0700 and 1900 M-F. In effect outside the peaks or peak direction you're on the weekend charge rates as I understand matters for the Euston - Watford service. This is the first real application of differential fares by time and direction. I think it will take some time for people to be accustomed to it and I can see the potential for confusion when people change operators and see their overall through fare rise if they re-enter or exit the system at times when the higher charges apply. This will be particularly the case if people are travelling near the shoulders of either the Watford line time bands or the wider time bands applicable to the main charging rates for PAYG (near to 0700 and near to 1900). For example travelling from say South Kenton into Zone 1 via Euston you might wish to linger a little if you arrived at Euston at 18.50 before heading to the Tube as you'd get the cheaper price all the way through if you re-entered after 1900. That's certainly how it has been explained to me by someone who took the time to phone me to point out these issues. Thanks, thanks for the confirmation (I think I'd deciphered this by the time I'd replied to myself!). So Watford - Euston line PAYG fares will be at the cheaper (in internal TfL lingo "discount") PAYG rate for much of the day. I wonder if the text shouldn't say "Towards Watford Junction" rather than "From Euston" to indicate the evening peak flow - "From Euston" could be misconstrued to mean just journeys that start from Euston. This will be interesting. I can imagine it will confuse people - for example those doing short local journeys in the 'wrong' direction. Let's say a parent goes to pick their child up from primary school from Bushey to Hatch End. Their return journey (after 4pm) will be charged at the higher rate, though I bet the trains that far out aren't that busy at that time, and perhaps not any busier in one direction to the other. Interesting scenario you put forward with regards to arriving in Euston pre-7pm and then waiting for 7pm before entering the LU network so as to ensure the whole PAYG fare is at the discount rate. Starting from Harrow & Wealdstone the PAYG fare difference is more pronounced - either £3.50 or £2 discounted. For those savvy to this distinction, they might in fact prefer to travel on the Watford - Euston line rather than the Bakerloo simply to take advantage of this. But nonetheless it sounds like a good plan. It's communicating it to the punters that's the challenge - especially if there going to be as dense as I was being! Lastly, if I'm right in understanding this all, PAYG journeys starting or finishing at Watford Jn will be priced by London Midland - I'm still a bit unclear as to whether these journeys will be cheaper on weekdays between 0930 and 1600, as will be the case with all other journeys on the Watford - Euston line. Of course, as Watford Junction isn't in a zone ("zone W" being a term solely intended for internal TfL use) then things get complicated here. I suppose every journey to/from Watford Jn will be charged, and there won't be any capping - thus someone who goes between Watford Jn and Euston several times a day will be capped at the zones 1-8 cap, plus will have a boundary zone 8 to Watford Jn fare charged on top of that (which I guess could be the same as a Watford High St - Watford Jn fare). Go back and read the prices that I published at your request in an earlier post. Yes there are caps that apply specifically to Watford Junction - they were in the post!!!!!! Sorry, I'm not really sure what I was thinking - I managed to desperately ask questions that had already clearly been answered - and answered by your good self, at my request no less. Evidently I just wasn't thinking! Without a doubt I win the utl dunce of the month award for that. I really don't know - I can see all sorts of possibilities, but without exact information on how things will be working to/from Watford Junction, including a table of fares and confirmation of whether there will be a "zone W" cap or not, it's all just speculation. Paul C - can you help!!! There isn't space to replicate all the pricing information but there are prices for Travelcards, PAYG charge rates and caps that apply for all applicable zone combinations within the zones plus a smaller range of Zones to "W". If you stop and think about it there have to be or else none of this works properly. As Mr Thant has explained the complication undoubtedly arises because pricing for the line remains with the main TOC - London Midland. As I have said until I am blue in the face the whole PAYG interface with the TOCs will be immensely complicated because of their retained rights to price their traffic flows. There has to be some sort of "logic" between the various pricing regimes or else it becomes a nonsense. What's perhaps concerning (IMO) is that this first major application doesn't seem very logical although to be fair to London Midland none of us know what the cash fares will be or how cheap day travel will be priced for cash payers. That all makes sense, of course. So, just to be clear, for a simple minded soul like myself, the PAYG prices for single journeys to/from Watford Jn will be set by London Midland, and has already been decided, but doesn't feature in the TfL 2008 fares booklet. The current Watford Jn - Euston PAYG price of £5.50/ £3 was presumably set by TfL *before* London Midland agreed to accept Oyster PAYG from Watford Jn. Therefore the control over setting this fare will in fact be passing from TfL to London Midland, right? If so this would surely have knock-on implications for the other PAYG fares from Watford Jn, such as a simple Watford Jn to Watford High St fare, or Watford Jn to Harrow & Wealdstone - PAYG fares that thus far have been set solely by TfL. All existing Overground literature is almost silent about the fact that cash fares and cheap day tickets are available across the network - it's being portrayed that the only game in town is PAYG with Travelcards in second place. -- Paul C Indeed. (The following fares info is sourced from the Avantix Traveller program.) What those cash fares will be is interesting - as since January 2007, fares between Harrow & Wealdstone and Queens Park have all followed the LU principle of charging £3 for a cash fare outside of z1, and £4 for a cash fare for travel to zone 1 (i.e. to Euston). Similarly from South Hampstead up to H&W all cash single fares are £3. However whilst SDR are priced at double that - as they would be on LU, where a return is twice the single fare - CDRs are currently available at prices closer to the single fare. Cash fares are listed in http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-dec-2007.pdf . However, CDRs have been abolished. |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
On 16 Dec, 00:13, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article , (Paul Corfield) wrote: Adult PAYG fares will be charged but there is a discounted daily off peak cap. Note that it is only off peak travel that gains a discount under this system. Off-peak being defined how for this purpose, pray? -- Colin Rosenstiel There's the additional problem (in addition to everything else that's been discussed) of the railcard's off-peak definition. I'm pretty sure I can't get a discount with my railcard before 10am (rather than 9:30). I assume that 9:30 will be the cut-off time with the PAYG system with the railcard discount? Sam |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 15:23:54 +0100, Martin Krieger
wrote: For example travelling from say South Kenton into Zone 1 via Euston you might wish to linger a little if you arrived at Euston at 18.50 before heading to the Tube as you'd get the cheaper price all the way through if you re-entered after 1900. Will it really work that way? As far as I have understood the oyster system, the fare is calculated between the touch-in and the touch-out point, and touches in between will be ignored. So in that particular case, as the touch-in is before 10:00, the higher price will be charged. The only chance to take advantage of this is to break the journey into two separate journeys - which is not that easy as Euston is an open interchange. I see that you meant 1900 from another post. Well I'd make three points by way of reply. a) Euston is not an open interchange. There are gates to leave the suburban platforms and then there are the LU gates. Both of these will record a transaction on the card including time of exit and entry. Note also that as it will in effect be a valid out of station interchange that the Oyster check at ultimate exit will go back to the original entry point anyway. If it is to add back the correct amount for the final leg of travel on LU re-entry to LU at the cheaper time of day *may* well be relevant. b) You're quite right that entry time is what *currently* determines pricing. However we don't currently have contra flow based pricing and if you think about the "Oyster lowest fare promise" then in the case of Euston in particular and the proposed pricing structure then the effect of re-entry to the system on either NR or LU will be of relevance. I have no idea how the ticket logic is going to deal with this but deal with it it must. c) As I have already stated someone took the time to point out this development to me as it had certainly not registered in my brain even though I had read some words somewhere about the pricing regime. Sorry that I don't have the full explanation but I haven't worked on Prestige for 8 years and am remote from a lot of the detail these days. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 17:39:43 -0800 (PST), Mr Thant
wrote: On 16 Dec, 01:06, Mizter T wrote: I'm genuinely confused as to what that means - it could mean that all journeys on the Watford Jn - Euston line will be treated differently to the rest of LU and LO in not just simply charging the more expensive PAYG fare between 7am-7pm - in which case Bakerloo passengers would also benefit from these cheaper fares on the shared stretches. This document has the formal list of new fares (7MB PDF): http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-dec-2007.pdf Everything between Watford Junction and Zone is set by London Midland rather LO. I'd assume far more customers use the former for this journey. It does mention (paraphrasing) "The standard fare is charged 7am-7pm; discount fares at other times; Discount fares will _also_ apply at other times for certain journeys to or from Euston". Though as in the booklet, the actual fares aren't mentioned. I have had a look at the detailed pricing lists in the Board papers. One item that amused me very much were the prices for the North London Railway and assumed routes. Walthamstow Queens Road - Harrow and Wealdstone is £3.00 Blackhorse Road - Harrow and Wealdstone is £4.00 South Tottenham - Harrow and Wealdstone is £3.00 Similar nonsenses apply for Barking. In other words if you have a tube service at the Overground Station you go via tube and Zone 1. Even where it might be logical to change from Overground to Tube (e.g. Queens Road changing at BHR) you are assumed not to go via Zone 1. Ironically if I go Harrow and Wealdstone I make the point of going by Goblin and NLL and then the DC service. Just as well I don't pay as I'd be a bit cross to be charged an extra quid just for going to the most logical station to catch my Overground train. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
There's the additional problem (in addition to everything else that's
been discussed) of the railcard's off-peak definition. I'm pretty sure I can't get a discount with my railcard before 10am (rather than 9:30). I assume that 9:30 will be the cut-off time with the PAYG system with the railcard discount? I am fairly sure that the railcard doesn't have a seperate peak definition, but some ticket *sellers* do. My YPR discount applies as soon as the "peak" period ends (9:37 at my station) but the self service ticket machine won't offer a ticket with the YPR discount until gone 10am. I have never been able to ascertain exactly when it begins to allow it! The ticket office will though. Best Wishes, LEWIS |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 15:57:07 +0000, Michael Hoffman wrote:
"Another new thing in the fares leaflet is the availability of Railcard discounted fares caps on Oyster PAYG. You'll be able to have your Young Persons, Disabled Persons, HM Forces or Senior Railcard loaded onto your Oyster card (no details how) and from then on the off-peak fares cap for you will be around a third lower than normal (e.g. £3.10 vs £4.80 for Zones 1-2). There doesn't appear to be a discount on peak caps or single journeys." This is an interesting development which closes up a few of the gaps in Oyster versus paper ticketing, but for my and my wife's purposes, not enough of the gaps to make a switch viable, even when Southeastern finally starts accepting Pay As You Go (whenever that is!). My wife has a Zones 3-6 annual travelcard (on Oyster), so when we want to go to central London she can get us both cheap all zones travelcards (£4.70 I think they are). Am I right to think that the new Oyster capabilities don't go any way towards replicating this situation? By far the easier part of this, to my mind, should be to make sure that her travel is capped at whatever the Oyster 2008 equivalent of the £4.70 is. Her Oyster card clearly already 'knows' that she has a Gold Card, since it is loaded onto it. So it seems it should be an even easier task to set this up than to set up the facilities described by the original poster. Have they really overlooked this in the new system? My side of our trips to London, however, I can see is rather a difficult one to replicate. I could only suggest that we could be able to register our relationship - as in, the fact that we often travel together, rather than that we are married! - via the Oyster web site or similar; then if the system noticed us making the same set of journeys at about the same time on the same day, it could cap mine at the £4.70-equivalent cost as well. (Of course if on that day I took any journey that she did not also take, my daily cap would revert to the standard daily Oyster PAYG cap, since that journey would not be covered by her Gold Card's effect on travelling companions. She, on the other hand, could travel as much as she liked without me, since she holds the Gold Card.) I realise my side of this is all quite complicated, but it does sound like it should be logically achievable. And the first wish - for her Oyster-stored Gold Card to provide a discount to her Oyster PAYG use - doesn't even seem complicated. What do you think - are they ever likely to get either of these ideas up and running, in addition to these other laudable new features? Paul |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
By far the easier part of this, to my mind, should be to make sure that her travel is capped at whatever the Oyster 2008 equivalent of the £4.70 is. Her Oyster card clearly already 'knows' that she has a Gold Card, since it is loaded onto it. So it seems it should be an even easier task to set this up than to set up the facilities described by the original poster. Have they really overlooked this in the new system? My side of our trips to London, however, I can see is rather a difficult one to replicate. I could only suggest that we could be able to register our relationship - as in, the fact that we often travel together, rather than that we are married! - via the Oyster web site or similar; then if the system noticed us making the same set of journeys at about the same time on the same day, it could cap mine at the £4.70-equivalent cost as well. What do you think - are they ever likely to get either of these ideas up and running, in addition to these other laudable new features? Annual Gold card discounts would be trivial to implement, but I guess that they think they are all Zones 1-6 anyway. Network card discount would only matter at the weekend. Family railcard, partner and groupsave discounts couldn't be intrdouced within the existing products. I would think they could only be implemented either as i) pre-loaded "stored journey rights" (i think only possible with ITSO not oyster) or ii) end of day rebating (mooted previously on Usenet for the probably apocryphal weekly "best value" capping.) |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
On Dec 15 2007, 3:57 pm, Michael Hoffman
wrote: U Thant reports on his blog that: "Another new thing in the fares leaflet is the availability of Railcard discounted fares caps on Oyster PAYG. You'll be able to have your Young Persons, Disabled Persons, HM Forces or Senior Railcard loaded onto your Oyster card (no details how) and from then on the off-peak fares cap for you will be around a third lower than normal (e.g. £3.10 vs £4.80 for Zones 1-2). There doesn't appear to be a discount on peak caps or single journeys." http://londonconnections.blogspot.co...discounts-on-o... Does anyone know how this loading process will be done? Will you be able to waltz into any LU ticket office and do it? When does this start, beginning of 2008? -- Michael Hoffman I was hoping it would be possible to do it online but alas not.. " * Tube station ticket offices * London Overground station ticket offices * Some National Rail station ticket offices " http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresa...ares/6769.aspx |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 07:41:09 -0800 (PST), Matthew Dickinson wrote:
Annual Gold card discounts would be trivial to implement, but I guess that they think they are all Zones 1-6 anyway. Network card discount would only matter at the weekend. Family railcard, partner and groupsave discounts couldn't be intrdouced within the existing products. I would think they could only be implemented either as i) pre-loaded "stored journey rights" (i think only possible with ITSO not oyster) or ii) end of day rebating (mooted previously on Usenet for the probably apocryphal weekly "best value" capping.) Thanks for this response. I completely forgot I'd posted this query until just now, whoops. The Annual Gold Card part really sounds like a silly oversight. I hope they rectify that before we finally get PAYG here on Southeastern's network next year! And I guess I'll be sticking to paper tickets for the foreseeable future for my £4.80 all zones travelcard when I go into London with my wife. Paul |
Railcard discounts on Oyster Prepay
"Paul Speller" wrote in message ... On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 07:41:09 -0800 (PST), Matthew Dickinson wrote: Annual Gold card discounts would be trivial to implement, but I guess that they think they are all Zones 1-6 anyway. Network card discount would only matter at the weekend. Family railcard, partner and groupsave discounts couldn't be intrdouced within the existing products. I would think they could only be implemented either as i) pre-loaded "stored journey rights" (i think only possible with ITSO not oyster) or ii) end of day rebating (mooted previously on Usenet for the probably apocryphal weekly "best value" capping.) Thanks for this response. I completely forgot I'd posted this query until just now, whoops. The Annual Gold Card part really sounds like a silly oversight. I hope they rectify that before we finally get PAYG here on Southeastern's network next year! I don't think it is an oversight - as it basically works as a 'free Network Card' for annual season ticket holders, I suspect the absence of Gold Cards from the scheme has to be seen in the same light as the (presumed intentional) lack of a discount for Network Card holders... Paul |
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