http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...nts/article.do

quote
Call for review of rail zones after complaints
Joe Murphy, Political Editor
28.12.07
A review of London's train fare zones is being called for after a
deluge of protests by passengers.
There has been a rise in complaints from commuters who believe they
are paying too much following the Government's decision to introduce
zonal pricing for rail journeys.
Zonal pricing for single and day return fares was introduced at the
start of this year, increasing the price of some tickets by up to 35
per cent.
Campaigners fear the cost of an annual or monthly pass will rise by
the same rate when zonal pricing for season tickets is introduced in
2010.
The current zones were drawn up in 1983 but their shape dates back
much further.
Zone 1, the inner zone, is based on the Circle line, which was built
in the 19th century, and zone 5 follows the outer edge of the old
Greater London Council boundary.
Falling on the wrong side of a zone boundary could increase the price
of a season ticket by up to £400 a year but in some places the zones
are much closer together than others.
Among the anomalies is Surbiton station, used by five million
passengers a year, which is in zone 6 despite being only 12 miles from
Waterloo. At least 28 stations in the cheaper zone 5 are actually
farther from central London.
Edgware passengers have fought to be moved from zone 5 into zone 4
because they are so close to London.
Epsom, Hinchley Wood, Claygate, Esher, Ashford, Potters Bar, Cuffley,
Theobalds Grove, Cheshunt and Waltham Cross stations are all in areas
that the consumer group London Travelwatch believes should be in zone
6.
In the new year, Hampstead Heath and Willesden Junction will be
redesignated from zone 3 to zone 2 following complaints.
LSE transport economist Tim Leunig, who studied the zoning, believes a
review is overdue. "The rings were squeezed to fit into the same shape
as the old GLC boundary," he said.
"They are close together in some places, which means fares rise
quicker, but elsewhere they are far apart and passengers can travel
longer for the same price."
A review is being promised by Liberal Democrat mayoral candidate Brian
Paddick, who said one of his first acts if elected would be to redraw
zone boundaries to make fares match distance travelled more closely.
He said: "The entire rail ticketing system needs reviewing. Many
commuters are paying over the odds."
Ed Davey, Liberal Democrat MP, for Kingston and Surbiton, said
passengers in his constituency faced a £400 hike in the cost of a
season ticket. "The zones are arbitrary and outdated and my
constituents are losing out very badly as a result," he said. "A
thorough review of the zonal map is long overdue and a very sensible
idea."
A Transport for London spokesman said: "Our zonal boundaries are set
up to provide a simple and fair framework for setting distancebased
ticket prices.
"We will always consider reasonable proposals from residents and the
zoning of stations has been adjusted where appropriate."
Unquote


Any more suggestions as to where the zonal boundaries should be?

On Dec 30, 5:54 am, Mwmbwls wrote:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...-details/Call+...

quote
Call for review of rail zones after complaints
Joe Murphy, Political Editor
28.12.07
A review of London's train fare zones is being called for after a
deluge of protests by passengers.
There has been a rise in complaints from commuters who believe they
are paying too much following the Government's decision to introduce
zonal pricing for rail journeys.
Zonal pricing for single and day return fares was introduced at the
start of this year, increasing the price of some tickets by up to 35
per cent.
Campaigners fear the cost of an annual or monthly pass will rise by
the same rate when zonal pricing for season tickets is introduced in
2010.
The current zones were drawn up in 1983 but their shape dates back
much further.
Zone 1, the inner zone, is based on the Circle line, which was built
in the 19th century, and zone 5 follows the outer edge of the old
Greater London Council boundary.
Falling on the wrong side of a zone boundary could increase the price
of a season ticket by up to £400 a year but in some places the zones
are much closer together than others.
Among the anomalies is Surbiton station, used by five million
passengers a year, which is in zone 6 despite being only 12 miles from
Waterloo. At least 28 stations in the cheaper zone 5 are actually
farther from central London.
Edgware passengers have fought to be moved from zone 5 into zone 4
because they are so close to London.
Epsom, Hinchley Wood, Claygate, Esher, Ashford, Potters Bar, Cuffley,
Theobalds Grove, Cheshunt and Waltham Cross stations are all in areas
that the consumer group London Travelwatch believes should be in zone
6.
In the new year, Hampstead Heath and Willesden Junction will be
redesignated from zone 3 to zone 2 following complaints.
LSE transport economist Tim Leunig, who studied the zoning, believes a
review is overdue. "The rings were squeezed to fit into the same shape
as the old GLC boundary," he said.
"They are close together in some places, which means fares rise
quicker, but elsewhere they are far apart and passengers can travel
longer for the same price."
A review is being promised by Liberal Democrat mayoral candidate Brian
Paddick, who said one of his first acts if elected would be to redraw
zone boundaries to make fares match distance travelled more closely.
He said: "The entire rail ticketing system needs reviewing. Many
commuters are paying over the odds."
Ed Davey, Liberal Democrat MP, for Kingston and Surbiton, said
passengers in his constituency faced a £400 hike in the cost of a
season ticket. "The zones are arbitrary and outdated and my
constituents are losing out very badly as a result," he said. "A
thorough review of the zonal map is long overdue and a very sensible
idea."
A Transport for London spokesman said: "Our zonal boundaries are set
up to provide a simple and fair framework for setting distancebased
ticket prices.
"We will always consider reasonable proposals from residents and the
zoning of stations has been adjusted where appropriate."
Unquote

Any more suggestions as to where the zonal boundaries should be?

Dartford should be in zone 6 for practical reasons - three different
train routes finish there

In article
,
(Mwmbwls) wrote:

[snip]
Any more suggestions as to where the zonal boundaries should be?

Another problem is that zones were designed for just 3* of today's style
zones but the number was increased over the years to push fares up.

* Fares Fare in 1982 had 4 zones for the whole of Greater London but two
of them comprised the current Zone 1 which was divided East-West.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 30 Dec, 05:54, Mwmbwls wrote:

Call for review of rail zones after complaints


Altering the zone boundaries raises three problems:
- althougth some fares would become cheaper, others would go up,
possibly leading to even more complaints.

- the outer boundary of Z6 follows the Greater London boundary because
TfL are naturally unwilling to pay for transport outside London unless
the local authorities there contribute. (They don't want to).

- the zones apply to both buses and rail, so extending the Z6 boundary
would either bring presently 'country' bus services into the TfL
network (expensive) or leave some bus services running inside the
Zones but not part of the TfL fare structure (as happens on a few bus
routes running South from Kingston where it is confusing for, and
unpopular with, users).
One way out of the bus problem would be to have boundary extensions
which applied only to rail (as happens between Surbiton & Hampton
Court, which is Z6 for rail), but applied on a large scale this would
also create a lot of confusion, and may lead to bus passengers
switching to rail for short trips, adding to overcrowding. (E.g.
Thames Ditton is in Z6 for rail but outside the zones for buses - so a
one-zone rail fare is cheaper than the (unregulated) local bus fare to
Surbiton, and travelcard users getting trains to Thames Ditton are
sometimes surprised to find their tickets are not valid on any buses
passing the station).

Jon

"Mwmbwls" wrote:


Any more suggestions as to where the zonal boundaries should be?

Seaford should definitely be in zone 6.

Chris
Seaford, East Sussex

On Dec 30, 12:17*pm, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article
,

(Mwmbwls) wrote:

[snip]

Any more suggestions as to where the zonal boundaries should be?

Another problem is that zones were designed for just 3* of today's style
zones but the number was increased over the years to push fares up.

* Fares Fare in 1982 had 4 zones for the whole of Greater London but two
of them comprised the current Zone 1 which was divided East-West.


Maybe part of the answer is to have overlapping zones so that, as at
boundary stations, it's possible to make a one zone journey in either
direction to two places, a journey between which might cover two
zones?

That would be a completely new system though.

The real answer is for all public transport to be free (like bendy
buses).

A Transport for London spokesman said: "Our zonal boundaries are set
up to provide a simple and fair framework for setting distance based
ticket prices.

Zones are unfair because most people only use unlimited travel within the
central part of the system and not at the extremes. It also makes no
sense to pay more to travel one stop in one direction than the other just
because it takes you over a zone boundry. I don't buy the simplicity
argument either, you turn up, ask for a ticket and get told how much it
is. You can accept or decline, just like in other walks of life!

I'm sure Oyster could as easily cope with point to point mileage based
fares as it can with zonal, the calculation of distances between each
station would only need to be done the once.

I've had seasons for around 10 years from Potters Bar and am typical
commuter, one route in and out, with occasional weekend shopping and
social stuff taking me around Z1-2 maybe a few times a month. I managed
to save £400 a year by buying a season ticket for zones 1-4 and then a
point to point from there to Potters Bar. It serves all my travel needs
and I'm not paying for zones 5-6 in bits of London I never go to. Even
then the saving would more than pay for any occasional travel.

I imagine this loophole will vanish once seasons go zonal, but hopefully
by then the rail companies will have a pre-pay system going.

Cheers,
Dave

In article
,
(MIG) wrote:

On Dec 30, 12:17*pm, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article
,

(Mwmbwls) wrote:

[snip]

Any more suggestions as to where the zonal boundaries should be?

Another problem is that zones were designed for just 3* of today's
style zones but the number was increased over the years to push fares

up.

* Fares Fare in 1982 had 4 zones for the whole of Greater London but
two of them comprised the current Zone 1 which was divided East-West.

Maybe part of the answer is to have overlapping zones so that, as at
boundary stations, it's possible to make a one zone journey in either
direction to two places, a journey between which might cover two zones?

That would be a completely new system though.

Are you overlooking the cases where zone boundary stations are in two
zones? There will be a small increase in their numbers from 2 January.

The real answer is for all public transport to be free (like bendy
buses).

There are other issues there.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Mwmbwls wrote:

In the new year, Hampstead Heath and Willesden Junction will be
redesignated from zone 3 to zone 2 following complaints.

Is Willesden Junction going to be in zone 2 or zone 2/3? The former move
could be unpopular with those travelling there from the north (if there's
much destination traffic on those lines).

In article ,
(Tim Roll-Pickering) wrote:

Mwmbwls wrote:

In the new year, Hampstead Heath and Willesden Junction will be
redesignated from zone 3 to zone 2 following complaints.

Is Willesden Junction going to be in zone 2 or zone 2/3? The former
move could be unpopular with those travelling there from the north
(if there's much destination traffic on those lines).

Zones 2/3 it says on this London Connections Travelcard Zones Map January
2008 I downloaded.

--
Colin Rosenstiel