Ohhh - I like what they have done with the canary wharf jubilee/DLR
interchange now. Far more accurate!

In article ,
(Tom Anderson) wrote:

*Subject:* Signs and portents (well, a map, anyway)
*From:* Tom Anderson
*Date:* Tue, 1 Jan 2008 20:47:16 +0000

On Mon, 31 Dec 2007, Paul Scott wrote:

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/twic/2149407291

I think it's a step too far to show the future southern extension
of the ELL in that way though, surely there's a good chance
people will give the diagram a quick glance and interpret it as
the line from NXG to East Croydon is also being closed for LO
conversion?

When they did much the same thing to extend the Central and
Northern lines after the war, taking over existing routes, they
were just drawn as dashed lines, without any reference to them
being extant railway lines:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.b...maps/1946.html

Although interestingly, entirely new bits of routes were shown
differently, as dotted lines. That clever Mr Beck!

They did distinguish lines being electrified from new construction,
though. The most annoying bit is ignoring the District East of Bow Road
while still including Aylesbury, Watford Junction and Ongar.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

wrote:

Ohhh - I like what they have done with the canary
wharf jubilee/DLR interchange now. Far more accurate!

But they haven't done the same thing at Bow Church/Bow Road.

It does... but it's far less prominent now. The trains don't have it
written on them any more and announcements etc. don't mention it.
Besides which, once the Thameslink work is all finished, the thameslink
route could mean trains to any number of destinations rather then the
fairly simple route it refers to at the moment.

All of which will pass through Farringdon, though. And vice versa, every
train which passes through Farringdon will be on the Thameslink route.

Makes no difference, the name "Thameslink" refers to Brighton / Sutton to
Bedford. Trains going to Peterborough have never been called Thameslink or
part of the Thameslink route, so still calling it Thameslink will be
confusing, especially since the operator won't be called Thameslink either.
Pasting over that sign was a very sensible thing to do.

Best Wishes,
LEWIS

They seem to quite like their stickers. London Overground have been
busy pasting over even the most harmless Rail Alphabet sign with an
identical one in New Johnston, complete with the silly "Temporary
sign" note in the corner. They seem much less bothered about the
trains not exactly matching the picture in the brochure.

Actually, I think they have done what was needed. Passengers at the station
will have wanted to know change is on the way, and changing the signage
albeit temporarily along with staffing does make the station feel "nicer". I
admit it is surprising that such a small act can help one feel more
comfortable, but there we go.

I was overjoyed whilst waiting at West Hampstead in the evening last week,
when a staff member walked down the platform, picked up the *one* newspaper
on the platform and told another passenger to put his cigarette out in the
shelter. Not 3 months ago, I would be cowering under a light next to the
help point, up to my knees in free papers while youths on the other side
threw beer bottles onto the tracks. And West Hampstead has always been one
of the nicer stations on the route!

As for the trains, even I can see that given the relatively short wait for
the new trains, re-painting or refurbishing is out of the question. The
trains are already arriving a thousand times cleaner (inside and out) then
they ever used to - and I am happy with that until the new stock.

I feel ever so positive about London Overground, the way the North London
Line was operated and neglected was nothing short of a disgrace in an "up
and coming" city.

Best Wishes,
LEWIS

On Wed, 2 Jan 2008, Lew 1 wrote:

It does... but it's far less prominent now. The trains don't have it
written on them any more and announcements etc. don't mention it.
Besides which, once the Thameslink work is all finished, the thameslink
route could mean trains to any number of destinations rather then the
fairly simple route it refers to at the moment.

All of which will pass through Farringdon, though. And vice versa, every
train which passes through Farringdon will be on the Thameslink route.

Makes no difference, the name "Thameslink" refers to Brighton / Sutton to
Bedford.

Er, what? That's what it refers to now, sure. When trains are running from
King's Lynn to Guildford or whatever, it'll refer to those too.

Trains going to Peterborough have never been called Thameslink or
part of the Thameslink route,

No, because they haven't been part of it. They are set to become part of
it.

so still calling it Thameslink will be confusing,

No, not calling it Thameslink when it's part of the same operation as
Brighton to Beford will be confusing.

especially since the operator won't be called Thameslink either.

True. And stupidly, NR doesn't seem at all keen on giving lines public
names distinct from their operators, which would be a continuing use for
the Thameslink name.

tom

--
skills to pay the bills!

All of which will pass through Farringdon, though. And vice versa,
every
train which passes through Farringdon will be on the Thameslink route.

Makes no difference, the name "Thameslink" refers to Brighton / Sutton
to
Bedford.

Er, what? That's what it refers to now, sure. When trains are running from
King's Lynn to Guildford or whatever, it'll refer to those too.

I would argue that from the travelling public's point of view, it won't
refer to those services at all. Since the name is not advertised to the
general public much (if at all), and the Train Operating Company are called
Capital Connect, I suspect the new combined service will become known as
Capital Connect. The official name of the line in the middle of it all won't
be heavily used, and so shouldn't be used for station directional signage,
after all LU don't sign "West Coast Mainline" anywhere.

National Rail or First Capital Connect is perfectly sufficient for signage,
and as it happens, I prefer the former.

Best Wishes,
LEWIS

On Wed, 2 Jan 2008, John Rowland wrote:

wrote:

Ohhh - I like what they have done with the canary
wharf jubilee/DLR interchange now. Far more accurate!

But they haven't done the same thing at Bow Church/Bow Road.

No. What they've done there is quite weird, actually - shown them as an
actual interchange, two blobs connected by a stick, like Baker Street or
Embankment. Looking around the map, i see they've done the same thing at
Tower Hill / Gateway, Shadwell, and Shepherd's Bush (between the Central
and WLL stations - the H&C station is miles off to the south!), none of
which are true interchanges. West Hampstead, on the other hand, is shown
in the same style as Canary Wharf, although there's one name label shared
between the NLL and Jubilee stations (which also has a rail flash for
Thameslink) rather than a separate name on each station, as at Canary
Wharf. Both the stations at West Hampstead are shown as interchange
circles, despite only having one line going through them - either the
walking distance counts as a connector and qualifies them from interchange
status, or that reflects the presence of an NR interchange [1].

Paddington, maddeningly, remains two entirely separate blobs (H&C and
Circle-Bakerloo), each with their own names, rail flashes and airport
icons. No walking distance is given. Ditto the two Edgware Roads. There is
also no walking distance between Marylebone to Baker Street, despite it
being, AIUI, a valid outerchange, nor the close-but-no-outerchange pairs
at Walthamstow Central / Queens Road and Seven Sisters / South Tottenham.

My guess would be that they've put a distance on at Canary Wharf because
without it, people will walk to the wrong DLR station. They've done it at
West Hampstead because they want to big up the Overground, but why haven't
they marked the two oportunities in the northeast?

They haven't put a rail flash on Hackney Central, despite it being as
close to Hackney Downs as Clapham North is to Clapham High Street (ish -
it's a bit further, but it takes the same time, because in Hackney you'll
be running). *******s.

tom

[1] I realise this is now getting pedantic beyond the call of duty. No
extra charge!

--
skills to pay the bills!

Lew 1 wrote:
All of which will pass through Farringdon, though. And vice
versa, every train which passes through Farringdon will be on
the Thameslink route.

Makes no difference, the name "Thameslink" refers to Brighton /
Sutton to Bedford.

Er, what? That's what it refers to now, sure. When trains are
running from King's Lynn to Guildford or whatever, it'll refer to
those too.

I would argue that from the travelling public's point of view, it
won't refer to those services at all. Since the name is not
advertised to the general public much (if at all), and the Train
Operating Company are called Capital Connect, I suspect the new
combined service will become known as Capital Connect. The official
name of the line in the middle of it all won't be heavily used, and
so shouldn't be used for station directional signage, after all LU
don't sign "West Coast Mainline" anywhere.

National Rail or First Capital Connect is perfectly sufficient for
signage, and as it happens, I prefer the former.

That's fine except where you need to distinguish between FCC services
that terminate in London and those that don't. For example, at King's
Cross St Pancras or (currently) Moorgate. In those cases, "Thameslink"
is a useful label for the through services. How else would you want
your line to be identified if you were bound for, say, Cricklewood and
needed to find the right platform having emerged from the Northern Line
at either KXSP or Moorgate?

Indeed, on the FCC site, it says "With only a short walk between King’s
Cross and St Pancras International, First Capital Connect customers
[arriving at King's Cross from Cambridge etc.] can not only access the
Eurostar terminal with ease, but can also reach other destinations on
the Thameslink route ...". (Though, if you follow the link to "Download
connections map", it leads to the old map with King's Cross Thameslink
on it!)

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

John Rowland wrote
wrote:

Ohhh - I like what they have done with the canary
wharf jubilee/DLR interchange now. Far more accurate!

But they haven't done the same thing at Bow Church/Bow Road.

Doesn't it at least say 200m ?
Looking at the "Tube Map" in the London Overground timetable booklet
(and see also West Hampstead).

--
Mike D