In message , Ian Jelf
writes

I do however, see some *very* problematic consequences of this in some
areas for demographic reasons; Blackpool and Torquay spring to mind.
(Notwithstanding the above, will the scheme give free bus travel in
Blackpool to "visiting" 60+ people but exclude the trams?)

Blackpool's scheme doesn't include trams, hence them now running route 1
(following the trams), initially to cover for winter engineering works,
but later because over 60s passes won't be valid on the trams.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 15:32:28 -0000, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

There's a real possibility that the free bus travel will wipe out daytime
train travel by the over 60s in some rural areas. I'm sure one of the
regional rail companies has already found this. South Wales perhaps?

Worse than that, it results in an effectively *subsidised* bus service
competing with the already-subsidised rail service, thus increasing
the required subsidy for the trains and thus proving a waste of money
and a contradiction to the concept of an integrated network.

The example I can think of is the Conwy Valley, where there is now a
local agreement to accept the bus passes, and the "competing" and
predatory bus service seems to now be suffering from a bit of a lack
of passengers.

Niel

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

In article ,
(Neil Williams) wrote:

On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 15:32:28 -0000, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

There's a real possibility that the free bus travel will wipe out
daytime train travel by the over 60s in some rural areas. I'm sure
one of the regional rail companies has already found this. South
Wales perhaps?

Worse than that, it results in an effectively *subsidised* bus service
competing with the already-subsidised rail service, thus increasing
the required subsidy for the trains and thus proving a waste of money
and a contradiction to the concept of an integrated network.

The example I can think of is the Conwy Valley, where there is now a
local agreement to accept the bus passes, and the "competing" and
predatory bus service seems to now be suffering from a bit of a lack
of passengers.

The Government has decided that the basis of payments to bus companies
for the free travel is the full fare foregone. In the past such schemes
worked on real marginal costs.

This is a very deliberate general subsidy to the bus industry, much of
which is going into the pockets of already fat cats.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Clive. wrote:
It is unfair that London pensioners should be able to use the public
transport in other cities (buses) but non-Londoners cannot make use of
the tube which is standard PT in London, as pensioners down there can.

move to London you scummy northerner

On Sat, 5 Jan 2008 21:40 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:

The Government has decided that the basis of payments to bus companies
for the free travel is the full fare foregone. In the past such schemes
worked on real marginal costs.

The *basis* is, then a substantial percentage is taken off to
recognise that journeys would be made that wouldn't otherwise be, but
offsetting the fact that additional capacity will need to be provided,
which isn't free.

Having seen some figures, it is not a substantial subsidy at all,
though where the figure is greater than zero is obviously is some kind
of subsidy.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article ,
(Neil Williams) wrote:


On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 15:32:28 -0000, "Paul Scott"
wrote:


There's a real possibility that the free bus travel will wipe out
daytime train travel by the over 60s in some rural areas. I'm sure
one of the regional rail companies has already found this. South
Wales perhaps?

Worse than that, it results in an effectively *subsidised* bus service
competing with the already-subsidised rail service, thus increasing
the required subsidy for the trains and thus proving a waste of money
and a contradiction to the concept of an integrated network.

The example I can think of is the Conwy Valley, where there is now a
local agreement to accept the bus passes, and the "competing" and
predatory bus service seems to now be suffering from a bit of a lack
of passengers.


The Government has decided that the basis of payments to bus companies
for the free travel is the full fare foregone. In the past such schemes
worked on real marginal costs.

This is a very deliberate general subsidy to the bus industry, much of
which is going into the pockets of already fat cats.

Is the amount worked out on the basis of an estimate of how many times
a day/week/month a typical concessionary-pass-holder might use the bus?

In message , Clive.
writes
In message , Ian Jelf
writes
I am a believer in free local travel for older people, not as a
poverty-relieving measure but as a tangible "gift" from society to
someone who has attained a certain age.
I find this very offensive.
I wasn't intending to offend you and I can't see how I have by saying
that I believe in a free local travel system.

I've paid full tax and N.I. All my life, why should I now be a
second class citizen to a "Londoner"?
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

On 4 Jan, 23:52, "Clive." wrote:
In message , Ian Jelf
writesI am a believer in free local travel for older people, not as a
poverty-relieving measure but as a tangible "gift" from society to
someone who has attained a certain age.

I find this very offensive. I've paid full tax and N.I. All my life,
why should I now be a second class citizen to a "Londoner"?
--
Clive.

Because you don't live in London. Each of the London Borough councils
pay for this benefit for the residents of their borough. If you came
to live in London then you'd get free travel. Simple.

On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 01:02:27 +0000, JNugent
wrote:

Is the amount worked out on the basis of an estimate of how many times
a day/week/month a typical concessionary-pass-holder might use the bus?

When they flash their pass the driver clicks a counter. Or there's
some card-reader system. At least that's what happens on every 'bus
I've ever noticed. So the actual number of journeys could be claimed.