Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On 12 Jan, 19:37, David Jackman pleasereplytogroup wrote:
Mizter T wrote in news:0eed117e-58ec-4f04-8b8e-
:

What is definitely allowed is to combine a season Travelcard and a
rail-only season ticket when your train stops at the point when you
swap between the two tickets - so lets say you travel from Woking to
London Waterloo, then as long as you got on a train that stopped at
Surbiton you could have a Woking to Surbiton rail-only season (as a
printed ticket), and then a zones 1-6 season Travelcard (issued on
Oyster if you so desire) which would kick in at Surbiton (Surbiton
being in zone 6).
What I'm less clear on is whether this would be allowed if the Woking
to London Waterloo train did not stop at Surbiton (as only some trains
from Woking to Waterloo do stop there). Perhaps someone can put me
right on this once and for all!

From the National Rail Conditions of Carriage:

"19. Using a combination of tickets

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they
cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit
their use);

(b) the train you are in calls at the station where you change from one
ticket to another; or

(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does
not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a
passenger transport executive or
local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s)
is/are not."

In this case (a) does not apply as Woking to Surbiton is not "Zonal",
(b) doesn't if the train doesn't stop at Surbiton and (c) doesn't as
both the tickets are season tickets and neither is issued by a PTE or
local authority.

So the combination is not valid.

David

Hmm. How annoying.

I expected the response to be the same as stated above, as it'd be far
too convenient otherwise. I need Zone 1-5 (I go into KX via Euston)
and London to Cambridge, so whilst an annual Oyster is cheaper than
PAYG, the separate tickets would cost ~£696.00 more than a combined
CAM-LT + 1-6 ticket, but if I could get Cambridge-Oakleigh Park and a
1-5 Oyster TC, then that's only £36 more than the paper ticket, and a
lot more convenient. I imagine they price them based on the fact the
TC covers you all the way out to Hadley Wood anyway, so it just seems
malicious that they wouldn't let you mix the two on a non-stopping
train.

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

In article
,
(MIG) wrote:

On 13 Jan, 11:55, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 13 Jan, 00:57, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:

Those may have come later, of course. They were not BR(GN)
served before 1976.

Are you suggesting an arrangement existed before 1976 then?


I can't answer these questions, but a couple of things are worth
drawing attention to to help focus.

Firstly, Finsbury Park to Moorgate via Northern City did have evening
and Sunday services for many years. It's relatively recently that
they've stopped, and certainly doesn't go back to the 1970s.

The main point about the situation pre-1976 is that the GNCR was always
part of the Underground before then. Once BR took it over the evening and
weekend services did fluctuate somewhat but have always been more limited
than those on some other lines.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

Good point Colin - if this really does date from that service
change, I wonder if this 'special case' will also come to an end
following the short (3 year IIRC) transition period when pax on the
Thameslink branch to Moorgate will be able to carry on using NR
tickets, after closure in December 2008. It would seem unfair to
them (Thameslink) otherwise...

Has that limitation been announced as part of the Thameslink
programme? Things already appear to be somewhat different on BedPan
from the GN.

Yes it's at para 37 of the SofS's 'closure decision letter' - the
transition period is only 2 years though.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/tl...0closuredecisi
on

That still only refers to Bedpan passengers, then.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

Good point Colin - if this really does date from that service
change, I wonder if this 'special case' will also come to an end
following the short (3 year IIRC) transition period when pax on the
Thameslink branch to Moorgate will be able to carry on using NR
tickets, after closure in December 2008. It would seem unfair to
them (Thameslink) otherwise...

Has that limitation been announced as part of the Thameslink
programme? Things already appear to be somewhat different on BedPan
from the GN.

Yes it's at para 37 of the SofS's 'closure decision letter' - the
transition period is only 2 years though.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/tl...0closuredecisi
on

That still only refers to Bedpan passengers, then.


Yes - what I was getting at was the short period any 'new special
arrangement' might be valid for, yet there appear to be much older special
arrangements that appear to be carrying on...

Paul

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

Good point Colin - if this really does date from that service
change, I wonder if this 'special case' will also come to an end
following the short (3 year IIRC) transition period when pax on
the Thameslink branch to Moorgate will be able to carry on using
NR tickets, after closure in December 2008. It would seem unfair
to them (Thameslink) otherwise...

Has that limitation been announced as part of the Thameslink
programme? Things already appear to be somewhat different on
BedPan
from the GN.

Yes it's at para 37 of the SofS's 'closure decision letter' - the
transition period is only 2 years though.


http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/tl...losuredecision

That still only refers to Bedpan passengers, then.

Yes - what I was getting at was the short period any 'new special
arrangement' might be valid for, yet there appear to be much older
special arrangements that appear to be carrying on...

I suppose we'll find out with time. It matters a bit on the GN, where FCC
have now withdrawn all overnight and beyond return fares to Underground
destinations.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On Jan 13, 12:57 am, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article
,

(Paul Oter) wrote:
As I mentioned, the problem is mainly in the western ticket hall,
(which I use every weekday morning) as can be seen by the number of
card slots that have tape over them. However the absence of tape
doesn't guarantee that the card slot will work. Others have
complained about this on uk.railway and uk.transport.london over the
past year or so.

That equipment must be almost new. How appalling.

It's not so bad in the tube ticket hall (which I use every weekday
evening) though I have certainly had problems there as well.

I've seen slots taped over, but not often.


0915 today: King's Cross Underground Station, Western Ticket Hall.
The station had only just been re-opened after yet another station
closure so there were a lot of people trying to get into the station.
Normally the left-most six ticket gates are available to passengers
who want to get to the Met/Circle H+C platforms.

Gate 1: Appeared to be working properly, with people going through
Gate 2: Oystercard reader working but card slot taped up.
Gate 3: Set "no entry" for no obvious reason.
Gate 4: Apparently working, but ominously nobody was using it despite
the throng of people trying to get through the gates. I approached the
gate and offered my ticket to the card slot. It wouldn't go in (i.e. a
mechanical problem either with the rollers or the card detection
system that activates them). I shrugged and joined the queue of people
who had clearly just done the same and were now waiting to go through
the fifth gate.
Gate 5: Working OK. It accepted my card without problem.
Gate 6 (minded by the staff member): Working OK.

(So out of six entry gates, Oystercard holders could use five and
paper ticket holders could only use three).

Gates 7-12 All set for exit and apparently working.

PaulO

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:37:17 -0600, David Jackman pleasereplytogroup
wrote:

From the National Rail Conditions of Carriage:

"19. Using a combination of tickets

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they
cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit
their use);

(b) the train you are in calls at the station where you change from one
ticket to another; or

(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does
not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a
passenger transport executive or
local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s)
is/are not."

In this case (a) does not apply as Woking to Surbiton is not "Zonal",
(b) doesn't if the train doesn't stop at Surbiton and (c) doesn't as
both the tickets are season tickets and neither is issued by a PTE or
local authority.

So the combination is not valid.

So would a Cambridge to R456 season ticket and a TfL zones 1 to 3
annual travelcard be valid for a non stop Cambridge to Kings Cross,
since it would appear both are zonal tickets?

If so, if you had the TfL zones 1 to 3 on an Oyster card, woul this be
a problem, as you would need to use the Oyster to out and back into
Kings Cross?

JB

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On 17 Jan, 17:17, JB wrote:

So would a Cambridge to R456 season ticket and a TfL zones 1 to 3
annual travelcard be valid for a non stop Cambridge to Kings Cross,
since it would appear both are zonal tickets?

Interesting qn; anyone got a convincing answer? I'm fairly sure the
answer is that it would not be valid, but I can't work out on what
grounds the C-R456 would be defined as "not zonal".

If so, if you had the TfL zones 1 to 3 on an Oyster card, woul this be
a problem, as you would need to use the Oyster to out and back into
Kings Cross?

There's no problem entering or leaving KX with a z123 season ticket on
Oyster (indeed, I've frequently gone from KX to Finsbury Park on NR on
a z12 season ticket on Oyster) - an Oyster season ticket is valid at,
and will open the gates at, any station of any kind[*]in the zones
for which it is valid.
[*] yes, pedants, even fire stations and police stations.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

JB wrote:

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:37:17 -0600, David Jackman pleasereplytogroup
wrote:

From the National Rail Conditions of Carriage:

"19. Using a combination of tickets

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they
cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit
their use);

(b) the train you are in calls at the station where you change from one
ticket to another; or

(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does
not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a
passenger transport executive or
local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s)
is/are not."

In this case (a) does not apply as Woking to Surbiton is not "Zonal",
(b) doesn't if the train doesn't stop at Surbiton and (c) doesn't as
both the tickets are season tickets and neither is issued by a PTE or
local authority.

So the combination is not valid.

So would a Cambridge to R456 season ticket and a TfL zones 1 to 3
annual travelcard be valid for a non stop Cambridge to Kings Cross,
since it would appear both are zonal tickets?

Yes, that would be fine.


If so, if you had the TfL zones 1 to 3 on an Oyster card, would this be
a problem, as you would need to use the Oyster to out and back into
Kings Cross?


No problem at all. The requirement to touch-in and out is only really
exists when one is using an Oyster card in Pay-as-you-go mode (or when
combining a Travelcard with PAYG to go outside the zonal validity of
that Travelcard - though obviously only on routes where PAYG is
currently accepted, i.e. the whole Underground network and a limited
number of National Rail routes).

If you were doing this you'd probably have to explain it if and when
you met a ticket inspector, but the combination is perfectly valid.

However it costs more! All prices below are for a month...

Cambridge - R1256 Travelcard - £380.20

versus

Cambridge - R456 - £314.90
plus zones 1-3 Travelcard - £109.10
Total - £424.

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:53:43 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:


If you were doing this you'd probably have to explain it if and when
you met a ticket inspector, but the combination is perfectly valid.

Yes that was my concern. I seemed to be getting some of the ticket
office staff saying you couldn't do it and some saying you could.


However it costs more! All prices below are for a month...

Cambridge - R1256 Travelcard - £380.20

versus

Cambridge - R456 - £314.90
plus zones 1-3 Travelcard - £109.10
Total - £424.

When I checked, Cambridge - R1256 was £441.60. The £380.20 seems to be
for a ticket valid to the ex-Thameslink London stations (Blackfriars,
City Thameslink and London Bridge)?

The main reason why I was interested though, was to be able to have an
Oyster card to use on the tube, rather than a paper season ticket.

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, John B wrote:

an Oyster season ticket is valid at, and will open the gates at, any
station of any kind[*]in the zones for which it is valid.

[*] yes, pedants, even fire stations and police stations.

What about radio stations? Battle stations? The stations of the cross?

tom

--
Gotta have skills to pay those bills.

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

JB wrote:

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:53:43 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

If you were doing this you'd probably have to explain it if and when
you met a ticket inspector, but the combination is perfectly valid.

Yes that was my concern. I seemed to be getting some of the ticket
office staff saying you couldn't do it and some saying you could.


However it costs more! All prices below are for a month...

Cambridge - R1256 Travelcard - £380.20

versus

Cambridge - R456 - £314.90
plus zones 1-3 Travelcard - £109.10
Total - £424.

When I checked, Cambridge - R1256 was £441.60. The £380.20 seems to be
for a ticket valid to the ex-Thameslink London stations (Blackfriars,
City Thameslink and London Bridge)?


You're quite right, I'm an idiot!

The £380.20 price I quoted for Cambridge is indeed the price of a rail-
only season ticket from Cambridge through to London Bridge via the FCC
Thameslink route (and is also the price for City Thameslink and
Blackfriars).

The rail-only season ticket price for Cambridge to London Terminals
(i.e. Kings Cross, Moorgate or Liverpool Street) is £349.50.

Meanwhile, as you correctly say, the price for Cambridge - R1256 is
£441.60.

(I was looking up the prices quickly, so I must merely have presumed
that the higher of the two prices given was the Travelcard price, but
I was very much wrong in making such a presumption!)

And thus the Cambridge - R456 plus zones 1-3 Travelcard combo at £424
is indeed cheaper.

However, can I just say that I am a little less certain than I
originally was on the question of whether this would be valid. I can
say with certainty that combining Travelcards *within* the London
zones is legit - i.e. a zones 1-3 Travelcard plus a zones 4-6
Travelcard. It was on this basis that I presumed that a Travelcard
from an out-boundary station (i.e. a station outside of London, such
as Cambridge) would be OK.

In your scenario I'm just a bit wary of some requirement that perhaps
the train needs to stop somewhere within zones 4-6 for the Travelcard
element to "kick-in" (as it were), so allowing you to combine more
than one Travelcard. One could argue that part of the reason for the
higher price is the non-stop express journey into Kings Cross.

I'm still tempted to think it is a valid combination, but I'd get rock-
solid confirmation of this first. I can certainly see grippers getting
fussed about it. If it is a valid combination, FCC wouldn't be keen on
the knowledge spreading, given that they'd lose money. Though indeed
if it is valid, why isn't everyone else doing it?

Perhaps some ticketing gurus might help us work out the definitive
answer to this?


The main reason why I was interested though, was to be able to have an
Oyster card to use on the tube, rather than a paper season ticket.


Well, if it is allowed then you've got another good reason to do it,
as it is cheaper.

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On 17 Jan, 19:48, Tom Anderson wrote:
an Oyster season ticket is valid at, and will open the gates at, any
station of any kind[*]in the zones for which it is valid.

[*] yes, pedants, even fire stations and police stations.

What about radio stations? Battle stations? The stations of the cross?

1) yes, it will open their gates, although possibly not their doors
2 and 3) I'm not sure really have gates, in any meaningful sense.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 12:36:04 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

However, can I just say that I am a little less certain than I
originally was on the question of whether this would be valid. I can
say with certainty that combining Travelcards *within* the London
zones is legit - i.e. a zones 1-3 Travelcard plus a zones 4-6
Travelcard. It was on this basis that I presumed that a Travelcard
from an out-boundary station (i.e. a station outside of London, such
as Cambridge) would be OK.

In your scenario I'm just a bit wary of some requirement that perhaps
the train needs to stop somewhere within zones 4-6 for the Travelcard
element to "kick-in" (as it were), so allowing you to combine more
than one Travelcard. One could argue that part of the reason for the
higher price is the non-stop express journey into Kings Cross.

I'm still tempted to think it is a valid combination, but I'd get rock-
solid confirmation of this first. I can certainly see grippers getting
fussed about it. If it is a valid combination, FCC wouldn't be keen on
the knowledge spreading, given that they'd lose money. Though indeed
if it is valid, why isn't everyone else doing it?

Perhaps some ticketing gurus might help us work out the definitive
answer to this?

I have emailed FCC to ask, although my last experience asking their
customer service team a question resulted in getting three different
answers and only getting a sensible answer when I forwarded their
nonsense to FCC's managing director.

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On 17 Jan, 17:17, JB wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:37:17 -0600, David Jackman pleasereplytogroup
wrote:



From the National Rail Conditions of Carriage:

"19. Using a combination of tickets

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they
cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit
their use);

(b) the train you are in calls at the station where you change from one
ticket to another; or

(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does
not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a
passenger transport executive or
local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s)
is/are not."

In this case (a) does not apply as Woking to Surbiton is not "Zonal",
(b) doesn't if the train doesn't stop at Surbiton and (c) doesn't as
both the tickets are season tickets and neither is issued by a PTE or
local authority.

So the combination is not valid.

So would a Cambridge to R456 season ticket and a TfL zones 1 to 3
annual travelcard be valid for a non stop Cambridge to Kings Cross,
since it would appear both are zonal tickets?

If so, if you had the TfL zones 1 to 3 on an Oyster card, woul this be
a problem, as you would need to use the Oyster to out and back into
Kings Cross?

JB

I did some digging and found elsewhere (
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Arch.../msg06234.html
) people with email replies from WAGN reporting that you could indeed
combine a season Zonal Travelcard and a NR season (say, Cambridge-
Oakley Park). Obviously, I've asked FCC this directly as they're now
the ones in charge (and awaiting a reply), but my reading of the NRCOC
is that it isn't valid, though my mind flip flops on this everytime I
read it.

"You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together
they
cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
....
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does
not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a
passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel
pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not."

I read that as:
As long as you mix a season ticket ( Cambridge-New Barnet ) that was
issued by a TOC and something which is not a season ticket, you should
be OK on the fast trains (which incidentally sounds to me like you
could use ordinary tickets to extend your journey on fast trains).

Now, the question is thus, "is an Oyster period TC a season ticket,
and if so, is TfL a PTE?" As far as I can tell, they're not a PTE,
which means the exclusion doesn't apply if the Oyster TC is a season
( but it does count as a gold card I believe, which sounds like a
season to me ), so if the Oyster TC *is* a season then no go.
Accordingly, if the Oyster TC isn't a season, you're good to go.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the replay form FCC, though they are
dragging their heels on this, but I can't blame them what with all the
delay replay paperwork they're having to do this last week ;)

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

oh, and the fellow who commented on this article seems to be combining
it OK though (and quite recently, going by the date)
http://www.theticketcollector.co.uk/...season-ticket/

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

In article ,
(JB) wrote:

So would a Cambridge to R456 season ticket and a TfL zones 1 to 3
annual travelcard be valid for a non stop Cambridge to Kings Cross,
since it would appear both are zonal tickets?

I think you'd have problems this year getting a Cambridge to R456 season.
FCC (who set the fares) seem to have scrapped all Cambridge to
underground zones fares other than same day tickets. 'one' (who runs
Cambridge station) are struggling at present. Things may become clearer
later.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:06:21 -0800 (PST), Jamie Thompson wrote:

I did some digging and found elsewhere (
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Arch.../msg06234.html
) people with email replies from WAGN reporting that you could indeed
combine a season Zonal Travelcard and a NR season (say, Cambridge-
Oakley Park). Obviously, I've asked FCC this directly as they're now
the ones in charge (and awaiting a reply), but my reading of the NRCOC
is that it isn't valid, though my mind flip flops on this everytime I
read it.

Of course, the NCoC only set out your minimal entitlement. If a TOC
wishes to grant you additional privileges, such as using that
combination of tickets on a non-stop train, they have every right to.

"You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together
they
cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
...
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does
not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a
passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel
pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not."

I read that as:
As long as you mix a season ticket ( Cambridge-New Barnet ) that was
issued by a TOC and something which is not a season ticket, you should
be OK on the fast trains (which incidentally sounds to me like you
could use ordinary tickets to extend your journey on fast trains).

Now, the question is thus, "is an Oyster period TC a season ticket,
and if so, is TfL a PTE?"

Somewhere in the Conditions it explicitly states that period
Travelcards *do* count as season tickets for the purpose of this rule.

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On 18 Jan, 07:03, asdf wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:06:21 -0800 (PST), Jamie Thompson wrote:
I did some digging and found elsewhere (
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Arch...005-08/msg0623...
) people with email replies from WAGN reporting that you could indeed
combine a season Zonal Travelcard and a NR season (say, Cambridge-
Oakley Park). Obviously, I've asked FCC this directly as they're now
the ones in charge (and awaiting a reply), but my reading of the NRCOC
is that it isn't valid, though my mind flip flops on this everytime I
read it.

Of course, the NCoC only set out your minimal entitlement. If a TOC
wishes to grant you additional privileges, such as using that
combination of tickets on a non-stop train, they have every right to.



"You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together
they
cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
...
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does
not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a
passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel
pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not."

I read that as:
As long as you mix a season ticket ( Cambridge-New Barnet ) that was
issued by a TOC and something which is not a season ticket, you should
be OK on the fast trains (which incidentally sounds to me like you
could use ordinary tickets to extend your journey on fast trains).

Now, the question is thus, "is an Oyster period TC a season ticket,
and if so, is TfL a PTE?"

Somewhere in the Conditions it explicitly states that period
Travelcards *do* count as season tickets for the purpose of this rule.

You are quite right:

(n) "Season Ticket" means a ticket (including an Electronic Ticket)
which allows
you to travel for a period of 7 consecutive days or longer and will
have one
or more of the following characteristics:
(i) it shows the word "Season";
(ii) it shows the word "Travelcard";
(iii) it is endorsed with a photocard number;

....thus if TfL aren't a PTE (AFAIK, they're associates of the PTE
body, but not full members), then the exclusion doesn't apply, and the
clause that only one of the tickets is a season isn't fulfilled.

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On Jan 18, 11:04*am, Jamie Thompson wrote:
On 18 Jan, 07:03, asdf wrote:



On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:06:21 -0800 (PST), Jamie Thompson wrote:
I did some digging and found elsewhere (
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Arch...005-08/msg0623....
) people with email replies from WAGN reporting that you could indeed
combine a season Zonal Travelcard and a NR season (say, Cambridge-
Oakley Park). Obviously, I've asked FCC this directly as they're now
the ones in charge (and awaiting a reply), but my reading of the NRCOC
is that it isn't valid, though my mind flip flops on this everytime I
read it.

Of course, the NCoC only set out your minimal entitlement. If a TOC
wishes to grant you additional privileges, such as using that
combination of tickets on a non-stop train, they have every right to.

"You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together
they
cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
...
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does
not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a
passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel
pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not."

I read that as:
As long as you mix a season ticket ( Cambridge-New Barnet ) that was
issued by a TOC and something which is not a season ticket, you should
be OK on the fast trains (which incidentally sounds to me like you
could use ordinary tickets to extend your journey on fast trains).

Now, the question is thus, "is an Oyster period TC a season ticket,
and if so, is TfL a PTE?"

Somewhere in the Conditions it explicitly states that period
Travelcards *do* count as season tickets for the purpose of this rule.

You are quite right:

(n) "Season Ticket" means a ticket (including an Electronic Ticket)
which allows
you to travel for a period of 7 consecutive days or longer and will
have one
or more of the following characteristics:
(i) it shows the word "Season";
(ii) it shows the word "Travelcard";
(iii) it is endorsed with a photocard number;

...thus if TfL aren't a PTE (AFAIK, they're associates of the PTE
body, but not full members), then the exclusion doesn't apply, and the
clause that only one of the tickets is a season isn't fulfilled.

One other thing to consider is that a Cambridge - R456 season and a
Zone 1-3 Travelcard season are both Zonal tickets and so are allowed
to be combined under clause 19a of the conditions of carriage. The
fact that neither, one or both are seasons doesn't seem to matter.
Clause 19 is clearly allows any of the options, as worded (see
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system...misc/NRCOC.pdf)

I used two travelcard seasons for a few weeks after I moved from Zone
2 to Zone 5 (A zone 1-2 annual and a zone 3-5 weekly) until the
paperwork went through for an upgrade to a Zone 1-5 annual. Both were
loaded on my Oyster and there were never any problems with its use.

If you are combining a Cambridge - New Barnet ordinary season with a
Travelcard season then I agree that you are holding two seasons,
however does the wording explicitly exclude combining two seasons? I
see the wording that if one of the tickets is a season, but no
coverage if both are. You could also try and get a season issued from
Boundary Zone 3 to Cambridge, but I'm not sure if such tickets are
available.

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

....yet, here we are again: ( Hertford to Crews Hill + Oyster )

http://www.hertford.net/yoursay1/pos...267&FORUM_ID=7

Contemporary, and valid it would seem, though there's a much greater
chance that those trains would stop at Crews Hill as it's on the loop.

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 02:00 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article ,
(JB) wrote:

So would a Cambridge to R456 season ticket and a TfL zones 1 to 3
annual travelcard be valid for a non stop Cambridge to Kings Cross,
since it would appear both are zonal tickets?

I think you'd have problems this year getting a Cambridge to R456 season.
FCC (who set the fares) seem to have scrapped all Cambridge to
underground zones fares other than same day tickets. 'one' (who runs
Cambridge station) are struggling at present. Things may become clearer
later.

Cambridge to R456 is available on the season ticket renewal part of
FCC's website, if you put in Cambridge to Oakleigh Park. It offers the
point to point ticket at £2980 and the Cambridge to R456 as£3280.

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On Jan 17, 7:48*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, John B wrote:
an Oyster season ticket is valid at, and will open the gates at, any
station of any kind[*]in the zones for which it is valid.

[*] yes, pedants, even fire stations and police stations.

What about radio stations? Battle stations? The stations of the cross?

Or action stations? Or even Acton stations?

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

I'm still tempted to think it is a valid combination, but I'd get rock-
solid confirmation of this first. I can certainly see grippers getting

I have emailed FCC to ask, although my last experience asking their
customer service team a question resulted in getting three different
answers and only getting a sensible answer when I forwarded their
nonsense to FCC's managing director.

You'd probably get a better response out of ATOC and then at least you
know it will be binding. I've also taken stuff to the MD because they
give our the wrong answers. She has corrected the mistakes they made but
even now they carry on giving the wrong information out.

In the separate thread about barriers retaining travelcards, customer
relations were adamant on return origin a travelcard was spent and their
barrier should keep it, in spite of clear rules to the opposite (it still
has validity on buses and the train/tubes back in the zones if you make
other means to get back there).

Once I'd found the right person in ATOC he contacted the right person in
Firstgroup who agrees with me, and is disappointed that "Customer
Relations" didn't read my whole email, which contained a link to the
section in the retail manual which sets this out.

I don't know how they investigate stuff but ISTM they just make it up as
they go along or always side with the railway, whichever is the easier
answer to give. They also manage to add a bit of sarcasm which is
unecessary. I guess it helps them pass the day :(

Cheers,
Dave

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

answers and only getting a sensible answer when I forwarded their
nonsense to FCC's managing director.

Remember now my last contact was over an erroneous price rise they put into
place where some season ticket fares went up from £552 to £1040. Customer
relations said it was due to zonalising fares, when in fact it was a
mistake (it was clearly a mistake as some longer journeys came out costing
less). They didn't bother to consider a fare doubling overnight was clearly
wrong.

The MD took it on board and it turned out to be a manual keying error which
the DfT had passed, though FCC said the fares were legitimate as the DfT
had passed them, so they would continue to charge them until it was
corrected. In the end the fares went back down after about a week, and
hopefully anyone that paid the larger one did in fact get a refund from
them.

I would have thought enough people dealing with the MD this woudl have been
sorted by now :(

Cheers
Dave

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the replay form FCC, though they are
dragging their heels on this, but I can't blame them what with all the
delay replay paperwork they're having to do this last week ;)

I asked WAGN this in 2004 and then they replied:

"I would confirm that under section 17.3 of the National Conditions of
Carriage, the combination of tickets which you would wish to purchase is,
indeed, allowed, and would cover the journey being undertaken.

The name being used in that reply is still being used by FCC, in spite of
the fact that customer relations moved from Cambridge to SW1A and now to
Plymouth. That's one hell of a commute for the three or four people who
regularly answer emails ... (or they're all false names).

Cheers,
Dave

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On 19 Jan 2008 16:30:49 GMT, DaveP wrote:

I have emailed FCC to ask, although my last experience asking their
customer service team a question resulted in getting three different
answers and only getting a sensible answer when I forwarded their
nonsense to FCC's managing director.

You'd probably get a better response out of ATOC and then at least you
know it will be binding. I've also taken stuff to the MD because they
give our the wrong answers. She has corrected the mistakes they made but
even now they carry on giving the wrong information out.

Very true. Today I was told by FCC that there was no such thing as a
Cambridge to R456 season ticket. When I pointed out that their website
offered one for sale, they told me their website must be wrong.

Another email has gone off to their MD...

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On 22 Jan, 19:08, JB wrote:
On 19 Jan 2008 16:30:49 GMT, DaveP wrote:

I have emailed FCC to ask, although my last experience asking their
customer service team a question resulted in getting three different
answers and only getting a sensible answer when I forwarded their
nonsense to FCC's managing director.

You'd probably get a better response out of ATOC and then at least you
know it will be binding. I've also taken stuff to the MD because they
give our the wrong answers. She has corrected the mistakes they made but
even now they carry on giving the wrong information out.

Very true. Today I was told by FCC that there was no such thing as a
Cambridge to R456 season ticket. When I pointed out that their website
offered one for sale, they told me their website must be wrong.

Another email has gone off to their MD...

I wonder how many commuters from out-boundary stations aren't aware
that they can buy season Travelcards that include less than 6 zones -
and crucially don't include zone 1, which comes at a price. There are
a whole host of journeys where such Travelcards could be just the
ticket, as it were! Plus there's the bonus that Travelcards including
any zones are valid on all London buses, as the bus network no longer
makes use of zones.

Of course when it comes to such journeys it might be the case that
buying a rail-only season ticket and then using Oyster to take
advantage of the cheaper Pay-as-you-go fares is the better bet, though
it really does depend on he specifics of the situation.

Back to the point - I see the possibility that many people are paying
over the odds because they aren't aware of Travelcards that are less
than R1256 from out-boundary stations such as Cambridge, and this is
of course not helped by the lack of knowledge exhibited by some staff.

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:19:08 GMT, JB wrote:

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 12:36:04 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

However, can I just say that I am a little less certain than I
originally was on the question of whether this would be valid. I can
say with certainty that combining Travelcards *within* the London
zones is legit - i.e. a zones 1-3 Travelcard plus a zones 4-6
Travelcard. It was on this basis that I presumed that a Travelcard
from an out-boundary station (i.e. a station outside of London, such
as Cambridge) would be OK.

In your scenario I'm just a bit wary of some requirement that perhaps
the train needs to stop somewhere within zones 4-6 for the Travelcard
element to "kick-in" (as it were), so allowing you to combine more
than one Travelcard. One could argue that part of the reason for the
higher price is the non-stop express journey into Kings Cross.

I'm still tempted to think it is a valid combination, but I'd get rock-
solid confirmation of this first. I can certainly see grippers getting
fussed about it. If it is a valid combination, FCC wouldn't be keen on
the knowledge spreading, given that they'd lose money. Though indeed
if it is valid, why isn't everyone else doing it?

Perhaps some ticketing gurus might help us work out the definitive
answer to this?

I have emailed FCC to ask, although my last experience asking their
customer service team a question resulted in getting three different
answers and only getting a sensible answer when I forwarded their
nonsense to FCC's managing director.

Well FCC's 'normal' customer service team delivered to expectation,
but an email to the MD that was passed on to a more senior member of
staff did deliver the results eventually.

FCC accepted straight away that two season tickets could be used and
as they were both zonal tickets that the train did not need to stop
at any intermediate station.

However they initially claimed that I would need a R3456 and a zone
1-3 travelcard, as a R456 and zone 1-3 would not cover the journey
over the boundary between zone 4 and zone 3.

I pointed out that a R456 would cover the journey up to the boundary
of zone 4 and 3, and that the zone 1-3 would cover the journey onwards
from the boundary of 4 and 3, and thus there was no 'gap'. I also
pointed out that extension tickets or excess fares on a zonal ticket
are calculated from the edge of the boundary, not the last station
within the zone.

They considered these points and then changed their minds to agree
with me. They have confirmed it in a letter advising that a National
Rail R456 season ticket and a TfL season zone 1-3 travelcard on Oyster
is valid on non-stop services.

I await the first ticket check with interest...

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

JB wrote in news:nocop3tpoan12q2qlafl4vrlsrspljpfqt@
4ax.com:

However they initially claimed that I would need a R3456 and a zone
1-3 travelcard, as a R456 and zone 1-3 would not cover the journey
over the boundary between zone 4 and zone 3.

I pointed out that a R456 would cover the journey up to the boundary
of zone 4 and 3, and that the zone 1-3 would cover the journey onwards
from the boundary of 4 and 3, and thus there was no 'gap'. I also
pointed out that extension tickets or excess fares on a zonal ticket
are calculated from the edge of the boundary, not the last station
within the zone.


I suspect this is one of the reasons why the rules do not require the train
to stop when changing from one zonal season ticket to another zonal season
ticket.

Clearly a Zone 1-3 and a Zone 4-6 ought to cover the entirety of Zones 1-6
- but finding a train that stops at the point you change from one ticket to
the other (in the case of FCC midway between Alexandra Palace and New
Southgate) could be rather difficult...

David