Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

Can you transfer the travelcard element of an annual National Rail
season tickets that has an origin of somewhere outside London, for
example Cambridge to Zones R1256, onto an Oyster card, and if so how?

JB

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On 11 Jan, 17:28, JB wrote:
Can you transfer the travelcard element of an annual National Rail
season tickets that has an origin of somewhere outside London, for
example Cambridge to Zones R1256, onto an Oyster card, and if so how?

JB

Quite strange, I've been meaning to ask *exactly* this question (even
down to the mention of Cambridge), for the last few days! It's even
stranger as my online gaming nickname is JB ;)

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On 11 Jan, 17:28, JB wrote:
Can you transfer the travelcard element of an annual National Rail
season tickets that has an origin of somewhere outside London, for
example Cambridge to Zones R1256, onto an Oyster card, and if so how?

JB

Simple answer - no.

In the future, if and when Oyster Pay-as-you-go gets extended outside
of the London zonal system, then Travelcard seasons (and indeed
perhaps even rail-only seasons) from stations outside London might
also become available on Oyster, but that hasn't happened yet.

(A small addendum to the above just to make life complicated -
stopping services on the Watford Jn - Euston line are now part of
TfL's London Overground network, and stations from Watford High Street
southwards are now within the London zonal system - at least with
regards to tickets issued by London Overground or other TfL outlets,
though confusingly not with regards to tickets issued by National
Rail. This means that, at least with respect to passengers buying new
seasons from London Overground or other TfL outlets, passengers can
have their Travelcard seasons issued on Oyster, and if said Travelcard
seasons had the required zonal validity then they would also be valid
on fast London Midland trains from Bushey.)


Now I come to the possibility of combining a season Travelcard and a
season ticket. I must admit that despite many many discussions on
uk.railway about this issue I'm still somewhat hazy as to what is
allowed!

What is definitely allowed is to combine a season Travelcard and a
rail-only season ticket when your train stops at the point when you
swap between the two tickets - so lets say you travel from Woking to
London Waterloo, then as long as you got on a train that stopped at
Surbiton you could have a Woking to Surbiton rail-only season (as a
printed ticket), and then a zones 1-6 season Travelcard (issued on
Oyster if you so desire) which would kick in at Surbiton (Surbiton
being in zone 6).

What I'm less clear on is whether this would be allowed if the Woking
to London Waterloo train did not stop at Surbiton (as only some trains
from Woking to Waterloo do stop there). Perhaps someone can put me
right on this once and for all!

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On Jan 12, 12:26*am, Mizter T wrote:
On 11 Jan, 17:28, JB wrote:

Can you transfer the travelcard element of an annual National Rail
season tickets that has an origin of somewhere outside London, for
example Cambridge to Zones R1256, onto an Oyster card, and if so how?

JB

Simple answer - no.

In the future, if and when Oyster Pay-as-you-go gets extended outside
of the London zonal system, then Travelcard seasons (and indeed
perhaps even rail-only seasons) from stations outside London might
also become available on Oyster, but that hasn't happened yet.

(A small addendum to the above just to make life complicated -
stopping services on the Watford Jn - Euston line are now part of
TfL's London Overground network, and stations from Watford High Street
southwards are now within the London zonal system - at least with
regards to tickets issued by London Overground or other TfL outlets,
though confusingly not with regards to tickets issued by National
Rail. This means that, at least with respect to passengers buying new
seasons from London Overground or other TfL outlets, passengers can
have their Travelcard seasons issued on Oyster, and if said Travelcard
seasons had the required zonal validity then they would also be valid
on fast London Midland trains from Bushey.)

Now I come to the possibility of combining a season Travelcard and a
season ticket. I must admit that despite many many discussions on
uk.railway about this issue I'm still somewhat hazy as to what is
allowed!

What is definitely allowed is to combine a season Travelcard and a
rail-only season ticket when your train stops at the point when you
swap between the two tickets - so lets say you travel from Woking to
London Waterloo, then as long as you got on a train that stopped at
Surbiton you could have a Woking to Surbiton rail-only season (as a
printed ticket), and then a zones 1-6 season Travelcard (issued on
Oyster if you so desire) which would kick in at Surbiton (Surbiton
being in zone 6).

What I'm less clear on is whether this would be allowed if the Woking
to London Waterloo train did not stop at Surbiton (as only some trains
from Woking to Waterloo do stop there). Perhaps someone can put me
right on this once and for all!


A slight tangent, but whatever the situation is now, it will
presumably be different again once Oyster is accepted on NR in London.

Does this mean that paper travelcards will cease being available at NR
stations in London?

If so, that means that anyone who declines to have all his/her
movements tracked will no longer be able to get anything longer than a
weekly and will have to pay more, as on LU already. You can't have a
monthly unless your card is registered.

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On 12 Jan, 00:37, MIG wrote:

(snip)

A slight tangent, but whatever the situation is now, it will
presumably be different again once Oyster is accepted on NR in London.

Does this mean that paper travelcards will cease being available at NR
stations in London?

Who knows - that seems like such a distant prospect! It's a good
question, but it is a hypothetical one to which I'm pretty certain
there isn't any official answer as of yet.


If so, that means that anyone who declines to have all his/her
movements tracked will no longer be able to get anything longer than a
weekly and will have to pay more, as on LU already. You can't have a
monthly unless your card is registered.


AIUI the TOCs' new franchise agreements merely specify that they
should be working towards smartcard (i.e. ITSO) ticketing, and don't
actually compel them to issue Oyster standard smartcards. TfL is going
to modify its Oyster readers so they can read and validate ITSO, so
there will be some compatibility between the systems - whether TfL
starts issuing Oyster cards as ITSO standard smartcards, as opposed to
proprietary Philips Mifare smartcards, is another question (perhaps
they are tied to Mifare until 2015 when the Transys Prestige PFI
agreement finishes).

The point of the paragraph above is to illustrate that in the future
it seems that Oyster won't be the only smartcard in town - so perhaps
the TOCs (with the DfT's blessing) would wish to only issue season
tickets on smartcards (whether Oyster or ITSO).

If there ever was such a plan then I'd expect people to kick up a
fuss, citing similar concerns about the ability of such systems to
track movements. I dare suggest that such a debate might have a wider
impact than merely London, given that TOCs elsewhere could potentially
be looking to issue all season tickets on smartcards.

Regarding the situation now and for the foreseeable future - anyone
who wants a monthly or indeed annual Travelcard on paper as opposed to
on Oyster can purchase it from a National Rail station, or indeed from
several TOCs either by phone or online (photocard required).

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

JB wrote

Can you transfer the travelcard element of an annual National Rail
season tickets that has an origin of somewhere outside London, for
example Cambridge to Zones R1256, onto an Oyster card, and if so how?

Apparently you can't buy it on Oyster or transfer it.

Paul Corfield kindly checked and posted in June '07

There has been no change to the range of Travelcards and out
county sections sold from LU offices. Therefore a ticket to Hertford
East can be sold from Euston. However, and this was news to me, it
would be sold not on Oyster but on magnetic stock with a photocard
which LU offices have retained solely for this purpose.

Attempts have been made to reach an agreement to retail Oyster for Z16
plus a magnetic extension ticket from the boundary to the NR station
requested but no agreement has so far been reached. Whether this will
eventually become reality I can't say but it would give you what you
would like. ==


--
Mike D

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:26:58 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On 11 Jan, 17:28, JB wrote:
Can you transfer the travelcard element of an annual National Rail
season tickets that has an origin of somewhere outside London, for
example Cambridge to Zones R1256, onto an Oyster card, and if so how?

JB

Simple answer - no.

Thanks, that's what I thought.

It was just that I spoke to the Oyster helpline yesterday and the
first person I spoke to clearly didn't have the faintest idea about
what I was talking about. Then their supervisor told me I could by
taking my National Rail season ticket to a LU station, but they said
it in such a such a way that I didn't entirely believe them.

I have emailed them as well, so I will be interested to see their
answer.

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:37:20 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:

If so, that means that anyone who declines to have all his/her
movements tracked will no longer be able to get anything longer than a
weekly and will have to pay more, as on LU already. You can't have a
monthly unless your card is registered.

AIUI you can't have a monthly season ticket of any kind without giving
your details in. The purpose of this is to allow the issue of
replacements[1], mind, not to track particular tickets.

[1] Got my first ever replacement season yesterday after my old one
got drenched in the downpour and refused to open any barriers after
that...

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On Jan 11, 5:28 pm, JB wrote:
Can you transfer the travelcard element of an annual National Rail
season tickets that has an origin of somewhere outside London, for
example Cambridge to Zones R1256, onto an Oyster card, and if so how?


An annual (standard class) season ticket from Cambridge to London
Terminals is £3640 and to London Zones R1256 is £4600, a difference of
£960.

If you simply commute on working days only to a Zone 1 underground
station and use a pre-pay OysterCard, the annual cost of your tube
travel would be about £1.50 x 2 x 5 x 48 which is £720. So even if you
make occasional additional journeys at weekends, beyond Zone 1 or on
the bus it might be cheaper to get a London Terminals ticket and use a
pre-pay OysterCard.

Note, incidentally, that if you're commuting from Cambridge to the
City of London (and don't fancy the Liverpool Street line) then you
can use a Cambridge - London Terminals ticket on the underground
between King's Cross and Moorgate.

PaulO

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

In article
s.com, Paul Oter scribeth thus
On Jan 11, 5:28 pm, JB wrote:
Can you transfer the travelcard element of an annual National Rail
season tickets that has an origin of somewhere outside London, for
example Cambridge to Zones R1256, onto an Oyster card, and if so how?


An annual (standard class) season ticket from Cambridge to London
Terminals is £3640 and to London Zones R1256 is £4600, a difference of
£960.

If you simply commute on working days only to a Zone 1 underground
station and use a pre-pay OysterCard, the annual cost of your tube
travel would be about £1.50 x 2 x 5 x 48 which is £720. So even if you
make occasional additional journeys at weekends, beyond Zone 1 or on
the bus it might be cheaper to get a London Terminals ticket and use a
pre-pay OysterCard.

Note, incidentally, that if you're commuting from Cambridge to the
City of London (and don't fancy the Liverpool Street line) then you
can use a Cambridge - London Terminals ticket on the underground
between King's Cross and Moorgate.

PaulO




BTW.. Are the barriers at Cambridge operational as yet?..



--
Tony Sayer

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 03:41:45 -0800 (PST), Paul Oter
wrote:

An annual (standard class) season ticket from Cambridge to London
Terminals is £3640 and to London Zones R1256 is £4600, a difference of
£960.

If you simply commute on working days only to a Zone 1 underground
station and use a pre-pay OysterCard, the annual cost of your tube
travel would be about £1.50 x 2 x 5 x 48 which is £720. So even if you
make occasional additional journeys at weekends, beyond Zone 1 or on
the bus it might be cheaper to get a London Terminals ticket and use a
pre-pay OysterCard.

The pricing difference did strike me as slightly mad for the majority
of commuters who will be doing exactly as you say, just two trips on
the tube. I suppose they rely on people not doing the maths.

However I need to travel around London for work and will be making
more than 2 journeys per day (and out as far as zone 6), so the London
Zones R1256 ticket will work out cheaper.

The reason why I was interested in seeing if the travelcard could be
put on Oyster was twofold.

Firstly, there seem to be more and more tube ticket barriers that
don't accept paper tickets. And it is always when you are in a hurry.

Secondly, using a £4,600 ticket multiple times every day increases the
risk of loss and the problem that they will only replace one lost
(expensive) ticket.

JB

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On Jan 12, 11:29*am, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:37:20 -0800 (PST), MIG

wrote:
If so, that means that anyone who declines to have all his/her
movements tracked will no longer be able to get anything longer than a
weekly and will have to pay more, as on LU already. *You can't have a
monthly unless your card is registered.

AIUI you can't have a monthly season ticket of any kind without giving
your details in. *The purpose of this is to allow the issue of
replacements[1], mind, not to track particular tickets.

[1] Got my first ever replacement season yesterday after my old one
got drenched in the downpour and refused to open any barriers after
that...


This is true, but that exists on paper at the ticket office where you
bought it.

That means that IF you are arrested on suspicion of a crime, the
police could link the ticket in your pocket to the details held at the
station where you bought it and to any record that exists of it
passing through barriers. This would require a positive effort and
would depend on you being picked up with the ticket in your
possession.

With smartcards, your movements (and purchases in future) are being
recorded passively and stored in a database. At any time, any
authority could choose to identify all individuals with a pattern of
behaviour deemed to be of interest to them.

That's dramatically different.

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On Jan 12, 11:58 am, tony sayer wrote:
In article
s.com, Paul Oter scribeth thus
(commuting from Cambridge to London)

PaulO

BTW.. Are the barriers at Cambridge operational as yet?..


The flaps have now been fitted so they appear finished. But I haven't
seen them in operation yet (and I use them every weekday).

PaulO

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 05:45:31 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:

This is true, but that exists on paper at the ticket office where you
bought it.

AIUI, on ex-Silverlink it is stored in a database, though I don't
believe that database is carried across between stations (though I am
registered at three - Euston, MK Central and Bletchley as I often
renew mine at any of the three).

With smartcards, your movements (and purchases in future) are being
recorded passively and stored in a database. At any time, any
authority could choose to identify all individuals with a pattern of
behaviour deemed to be of interest to them.

That's dramatically different.

This is true.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On Jan 12, 12:36 pm, JB wrote:
The reason why I was interested in seeing if the travelcard could be
put on Oyster was twofold.

Firstly, there seem to be more and more tube ticket barriers that
don't accept paper tickets. And it is always when you are in a hurry.

The gates at King's Cross Underground (especially the ones in the
Western Ticket Hall) are notoriously bad at accepting paper tickets.
Many of them will only take the ticket is you push it in quite hard,
others refuse to accept it altogether. I have got into the habit of
identifying a particular gate that seems to work properly and using it
each day, though even that doesn't always work.

Secondly, using a £4,600 ticket multiple times every day increases the
risk of loss and the problem that they will only replace one lost
(expensive) ticket.

Yes, I agree. Though we'll still have to feed our paper tickets
through the gates at Cambridge when leaving (but not entering) King's
Cross platforms 9/10/11.

PaulO

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

Does this mean that paper travelcards will cease being available at NR
stations in London?

If so, that means that anyone who declines to have all his/her
movements tracked will no longer be able to get anything longer than a
weekly and will have to pay more, as on LU already. You can't have a
monthly unless your card is registered.

In these days of "Environmental Enlightenment", many would see ticketless
travel as a resonable goal. I guess its just that "registered" bit that
causes trouble, what is the official reason for it over a scheme where you
could *choose* to register for added protection if you wanted?

Personally, I don't mind if anyone looks at my journey history. I doubt they
would make an awful lot of sense of it anyway, as Oyster seems to cock up
constantly anyway.

Best Wishes,
LEWIS

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On Jan 12, 4:15*pm, "Lew 1"
wrote:
Does this mean that paper travelcards will cease being available at NR
stations in London?

If so, that means that anyone who declines to have all his/her
movements tracked will no longer be able to get anything longer than a
weekly and will have to pay more, as on LU already. *You can't have a
monthly unless your card is registered.

In these days of "Environmental Enlightenment", many would see ticketless
travel as a resonable goal. I guess its just that "registered" bit that
causes trouble, what is the official reason for it over a scheme where you
could *choose* to register for added protection if you wanted?

Personally, I don't mind if anyone looks at my journey history. I doubt they
would make an awful lot of sense of it anyway, as Oyster seems to cock up
constantly anyway.

It's not really about a person looking at your journey history, it's
more about governments*, corporations and security services using data-
mining to find patterns. Eg, everyone whose Oyster shows an arrival
at a station near the start of every year's Gay Pride march and other
specific events.

*including less benign ones at any time in the future

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

In message , at 16:15:49 on Sat, 12 Jan 2008, Lew
1 remarked:
In these days of "Environmental Enlightenment", many would see ticketless
travel as a resonable goal. I guess its just that "registered" bit that
causes trouble, what is the official reason for it over a scheme where you
could *choose* to register for added protection if you wanted?

Just a guess, but probably because they fear being besieged by clueless
unregistered cardholders wanting the added protection retrospectively.
--
Roland Perry

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

Mizter T wrote in news:0eed117e-58ec-4f04-8b8e-
:

What is definitely allowed is to combine a season Travelcard and a
rail-only season ticket when your train stops at the point when you
swap between the two tickets - so lets say you travel from Woking to
London Waterloo, then as long as you got on a train that stopped at
Surbiton you could have a Woking to Surbiton rail-only season (as a
printed ticket), and then a zones 1-6 season Travelcard (issued on
Oyster if you so desire) which would kick in at Surbiton (Surbiton
being in zone 6).

What I'm less clear on is whether this would be allowed if the Woking
to London Waterloo train did not stop at Surbiton (as only some trains
from Woking to Waterloo do stop there). Perhaps someone can put me
right on this once and for all!


From the National Rail Conditions of Carriage:

"19. Using a combination of tickets

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they
cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit
their use);

(b) the train you are in calls at the station where you change from one
ticket to another; or

(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does
not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a
passenger transport executive or
local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s)
is/are not."

In this case (a) does not apply as Woking to Surbiton is not "Zonal",
(b) doesn't if the train doesn't stop at Surbiton and (c) doesn't as
both the tickets are season tickets and neither is issued by a PTE or
local authority.

So the combination is not valid.

David

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

"Paul Oter" wrote in message
...
On Jan 11, 5:28 pm, JB wrote:
Can you transfer the travelcard element of an annual National Rail
season tickets that has an origin of somewhere outside London, for
example Cambridge to Zones R1256, onto an Oyster card, and if so how?



Note, incidentally, that if you're commuting from Cambridge to the
City of London (and don't fancy the Liverpool Street line) then you
can use a Cambridge - London Terminals ticket on the underground
between King's Cross and Moorgate.


Not according to the current Fares Manual (Section A Page A4), there is an
exclusion for journey's beyond St Pancras from the north (or City Thameslink
from the south). In other words Moorgate is only a London Terminal via
Finsbury Park.

Paul S

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

In article
,
(Paul Oter) wrote:

On Jan 12, 11:58 am, tony sayer wrote:
In article

s.com, Paul Oter scribeth thus
(commuting from Cambridge to London)

BTW.. Are the barriers at Cambridge operational as yet?..

The flaps have now been fitted so they appear finished. But I
haven't seen them in operation yet (and I use them every weekday).

Not in use by Friday 17:00.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

In article
,
(Paul Oter) wrote:

The gates at King's Cross Underground (especially the ones in the
Western Ticket Hall) are notoriously bad at accepting paper tickets.
Many of them will only take the ticket is you push it in quite hard,
others refuse to accept it altogether. I have got into the habit of
identifying a particular gate that seems to work properly and using
it each day, though even that doesn't always work.

I'm surprised to see you write that. I never have problems with paper
tickets coming out of the Victoria or Piccadilly Lines and heading for
King's Cross. All on day tickets, though.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

In article
,
(Paul Oter) wrote:

An annual (standard class) season ticket from Cambridge to London
Terminals is £3640 and to London Zones R1256 is £4600, a difference
of £960.

If you simply commute on working days only to a Zone 1 underground
station and use a pre-pay OysterCard, the annual cost of your tube
travel would be about £1.50 x 2 x 5 x 48 which is £720. So even if
you make occasional additional journeys at weekends, beyond Zone 1 or
on
the bus it might be cheaper to get a London Terminals ticket and
use a pre-pay OysterCard.

This is becoming a depressingly standard pattern with FCC fares involving
Underground travel. An Off-Peak Day Travelcard, even with Railcard
discount, requires increasing amounts of London travel to justify its
purchase.

On January 2 they seem to have abolished all ticketing involving
Underground travel and an overnight or longer stay in London. I suggested
they start selling Oyster credit but they missed the point.

I wonder if there is an Annual Season rate to Zone 1? The Nationalrail
web site says "There is no season ticket option available between the
stations you have chosen."

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 20:09:39 -0000, Paul Scott wrote:

Note, incidentally, that if you're commuting from Cambridge to the
City of London (and don't fancy the Liverpool Street line) then you
can use a Cambridge - London Terminals ticket on the underground
between King's Cross and Moorgate.

Not according to the current Fares Manual (Section A Page A4), there is an
exclusion for journey's beyond St Pancras from the north (or City Thameslink
from the south). In other words Moorgate is only a London Terminal via
Finsbury Park.

You are mistaken, mainly because Cambridge is on the GN route (out of
KX), not the TL route (out of St Pancras). The PP is correct (see page
L5).

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

"asdf" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 20:09:39 -0000, Paul Scott wrote:

Note, incidentally, that if you're commuting from Cambridge to the
City of London (and don't fancy the Liverpool Street line) then you
can use a Cambridge - London Terminals ticket on the underground
between King's Cross and Moorgate.

Not according to the current Fares Manual (Section A Page A4), there is an
exclusion for journey's beyond St Pancras from the north (or City
Thameslink
from the south). In other words Moorgate is only a London Terminal via
Finsbury Park.

You are mistaken, mainly because Cambridge is on the GN route (out of
KX), not the TL route (out of St Pancras). The PP is correct (see page
L5).

How do you get from Kings Cross to Moorgate by train then?

Paul

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 21:58:21 -0000, Paul Scott wrote:

Note, incidentally, that if you're commuting from Cambridge to the
City of London (and don't fancy the Liverpool Street line) then you
can use a Cambridge - London Terminals ticket on the underground
between King's Cross and Moorgate.

Not according to the current Fares Manual (Section A Page A4), there is an
exclusion for journey's beyond St Pancras from the north (or City
Thameslink
from the south). In other words Moorgate is only a London Terminal via
Finsbury Park.

You are mistaken, mainly because Cambridge is on the GN route (out of
KX), not the TL route (out of St Pancras). The PP is correct (see page
L5).

How do you get from Kings Cross to Moorgate by train then?

Circle, Metropolitan, Hammersmith & City, or Northern lines.

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

In message , at 21:58:21 on
Sat, 12 Jan 2008, Paul Scott remarked:
Note, incidentally, that if you're commuting from Cambridge to the
City of London (and don't fancy the Liverpool Street line) then you
can use a Cambridge - London Terminals ticket on the underground
between King's Cross and Moorgate.

Not according to the current Fares Manual (Section A Page A4), there is an
exclusion for journey's beyond St Pancras from the north (or City
Thameslink
from the south). In other words Moorgate is only a London Terminal via
Finsbury Park.

You are mistaken, mainly because Cambridge is on the GN route (out of
KX), not the TL route (out of St Pancras). The PP is correct (see page
L5).

How do you get from Kings Cross to Moorgate by train then?

Underground, it was alleged.
--
Roland Perry

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...

"asdf" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 20:09:39 -0000, Paul Scott wrote:

Note, incidentally, that if you're commuting from Cambridge to the
City of London (and don't fancy the Liverpool Street line) then you
can use a Cambridge - London Terminals ticket on the underground
between King's Cross and Moorgate.

Not according to the current Fares Manual (Section A Page A4), there is
an
exclusion for journey's beyond St Pancras from the north (or City
Thameslink
from the south). In other words Moorgate is only a London Terminal via
Finsbury Park.

You are mistaken, mainly because Cambridge is on the GN route (out of
KX), not the TL route (out of St Pancras). The PP is correct (see page
L5).

How do you get from Kings Cross to Moorgate by train then?


I see - (should have checked L5 first!) - it's weird isn't it - I assume
this has something to do with the history of Moorgate as a former
underground station (GN&C), and/or the fact that the 'replacement' main line
trains don't run late evening and weekends, so the underground is ok in
lieu?

Paul

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On 12 Jan, 20:09, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Not according to the current Fares Manual (Section A Page A4), there is an
exclusion for journey's beyond St Pancras from the north (or City Thameslink
from the south). In other words Moorgate is only a London Terminal via
Finsbury Park.

Exactly right, but this is about trains via Finsbury Park. There's an
arrangement that any ticket valid on Finsbury Park-Moorgate trains is
also valid Finsbury Park-King's Cross (on trains or tube) then KXSP-
Moorgate (tube only), to compensate for when the Northern City Line is
closed. You're not allowed to use any intermediate stations other than
Highbury & Islington and Old Street.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...

"asdf" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 20:09:39 -0000, Paul Scott wrote:

Note, incidentally, that if you're commuting from Cambridge to the
City of London (and don't fancy the Liverpool Street line) then you
can use a Cambridge - London Terminals ticket on the underground
between King's Cross and Moorgate.

Not according to the current Fares Manual (Section A Page A4), there

is an exclusion for journey's beyond St Pancras from the north (or
City Thameslink from the south). In other words Moorgate is only a
London Terminal via Finsbury Park.

You are mistaken, mainly because Cambridge is on the GN route (out
of KX), not the TL route (out of St Pancras). The PP is correct
(see page L5).

How do you get from Kings Cross to Moorgate by train then?

I see - (should have checked L5 first!) - it's weird isn't it - I
assume this has something to do with the history of Moorgate as a
former underground station (GN&C), and/or the fact that the
'replacement' main line trains don't run late evening and weekends,
so the underground is ok in lieu?

Nowt to do with the GN&C I expect, but a relic of the City Widened Lines
which provided direct services from the GN to Moorgate (Met) until the
1970s.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...

"asdf" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 20:09:39 -0000, Paul Scott wrote:

Note, incidentally, that if you're commuting from Cambridge to the
City of London (and don't fancy the Liverpool Street line) then you
can use a Cambridge - London Terminals ticket on the underground
between King's Cross and Moorgate.

Not according to the current Fares Manual (Section A Page A4), there

is an exclusion for journey's beyond St Pancras from the north (or
City Thameslink from the south). In other words Moorgate is only a
London Terminal via Finsbury Park.

You are mistaken, mainly because Cambridge is on the GN route (out
of KX), not the TL route (out of St Pancras). The PP is correct
(see page L5).

How do you get from Kings Cross to Moorgate by train then?

I see - (should have checked L5 first!) - it's weird isn't it - I
assume this has something to do with the history of Moorgate as a
former underground station (GN&C), and/or the fact that the
'replacement' main line trains don't run late evening and weekends,
so the underground is ok in lieu?

Nowt to do with the GN&C I expect, but a relic of the City Widened Lines
which provided direct services from the GN to Moorgate (Met) until the
1970s.

Good point Colin - if this really does date from that service change, I
wonder if this 'special case' will also come to an end following the short
(3 year IIRC) transition period when pax on the Thameslink branch to
Moorgate will be able to carry on using NR tickets, after closure in
December 2008. It would seem unfair to them (Thameslink) otherwise...

Paul

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

I see - (should have checked L5 first!) - it's weird isn't it - I
assume this has something to do with the history of Moorgate as a
former underground station (GN&C), and/or the fact that the
'replacement' main line trains don't run late evening and weekends,
so the underground is ok in lieu?

Nowt to do with the GN&C I expect, but a relic of the City Widened
Lines which provided direct services from the GN to Moorgate (Met)
until the 1970s.

Good point Colin - if this really does date from that service
change, I wonder if this 'special case' will also come to an end
following the short (3 year IIRC) transition period when pax on the
Thameslink branch to Moorgate will be able to carry on using NR
tickets, after closure in December 2008. It would seem unfair to
them (Thameslink) otherwise...

Has that limitation been announced as part of the Thameslink programme?
Things already appear to be somewhat different on BedPan from the GN.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On Jan 12, 8:37 pm, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article
,

(Paul Oter) wrote:
The gates at King's Cross Underground (especially the ones in the
Western Ticket Hall) are notoriously bad at accepting paper tickets.
Many of them will only take the ticket is you push it in quite hard,
others refuse to accept it altogether. I have got into the habit of
identifying a particular gate that seems to work properly and using
it each day, though even that doesn't always work.

I'm surprised to see you write that. I never have problems with paper
tickets coming out of the Victoria or Piccadilly Lines and heading for
King's Cross. All on day tickets, though.

As I mentioned, the problem is mainly in the western ticket hall,
(which I use every weekday morning) as can be seen by the number of
card slots that have tape over them. However the absence of tape
doesn't guarantee that the card slot will work. Others have complained
about this on uk.railway and uk.transport.london over the past year or
so.

It's not so bad in the tube ticket hall (which I use every weekday
evening) though I have certainly had problems there as well.

PaulO

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On 12 Jan, 23:38, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
Nowt to do with the GN&C I expect, but a relic of the City Widened Lines
which provided direct services from the GN to Moorgate (Met) until the
1970s.

But the rule is clearly designed to substitute for the Northern City
service, given the only intermediate stations allowed are Old Street
and Highbury & Islington.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On Jan 12, 10:21 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"Paul Scott" wrote in message

...





"asdf" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 20:09:39 -0000, Paul Scott wrote:

Note, incidentally, that if you're commuting from Cambridge to the
City of London (and don't fancy the Liverpool Street line) then you
can use a Cambridge - London Terminals ticket on the underground
between King's Cross and Moorgate.

Not according to the current Fares Manual (Section A Page A4), there is
an
exclusion for journey's beyond St Pancras from the north (or City
Thameslink
from the south). In other words Moorgate is only a London Terminal via
Finsbury Park.

You are mistaken, mainly because Cambridge is on the GN route (out of
KX), not the TL route (out of St Pancras). The PP is correct (see page
L5).

How do you get from Kings Cross to Moorgate by train then?

I see - (should have checked L5 first!) - it's weird isn't it - I assume
this has something to do with the history of Moorgate as a former
underground station (GN&C), and/or the fact that the 'replacement' main line
trains don't run late evening and weekends, so the underground is ok in
lieu?

I first heard about this in the leaflet that WAGN gave me when I first
bought a season ticket a few years ago, and subsequently confirmed it
in the National Fares Manual.

I, too, think it's something to do with Finsbury Park - Moorgate not
operating late evenings and at weekends.

PaulO

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

In article
,
(Mr Thant) wrote:

On 12 Jan, 23:38, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
Nowt to do with the GN&C I expect, but a relic of the City
Widened Lines which provided direct services from the GN to
Moorgate (Met) until the 1970s.

But the rule is clearly designed to substitute for the Northern City
service, given the only intermediate stations allowed are Old Street
and Highbury & Islington.

Those may have come later, of course. They were not BR(GN) served before
1976.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

In article
,
(Paul Oter) wrote:

As I mentioned, the problem is mainly in the western ticket hall,
(which I use every weekday morning) as can be seen by the number of
card slots that have tape over them. However the absence of tape
doesn't guarantee that the card slot will work. Others have
complained about this on uk.railway and uk.transport.london over the
past year or so.

That equipment must be almost new. How appalling.

It's not so bad in the tube ticket hall (which I use every weekday
evening) though I have certainly had problems there as well.

I've seen slots taped over, but not often.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On 13 Jan, 00:57, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
Those may have come later, of course. They were not BR(GN) served before
1976.

Are you suggesting an arrangement existed before 1976 then?

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

On 13 Jan, 11:55, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 13 Jan, 00:57, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:

Those may have come later, of course. They were not BR(GN) served before
1976.

Are you suggesting an arrangement existed before 1976 then?


I can't answer these questions, but a couple of things are worth
drawing attention to to help focus.

Firstly, Finsbury Park to Moorgate via Northern City did have evening
and Sunday services for many years. It's relatively recently that
they've stopped, and certainly doesn't go back to the 1970s.

Secondly, as far as I know, there were services from the Bedpan line
to Moorgate much later as well, I think until Thameslink started in
about 1988. So it was possible to go via Kings Cross to Moorgate
using only BR, with a change.

Thirdly, I think both GN and Bedpan services to Moorgate via Widened
Lines were always peak only, so any arrangement would only be
replacing peak services, not all-day services. So if there was an
arrangement allowing use of the Underground, it might have applied off-
peak in any case even when there were GN services to Moorgate via
Widenend Lines.

Oyster and National Rail season tickets
 

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

Good point Colin - if this really does date from that service
change, I wonder if this 'special case' will also come to an end
following the short (3 year IIRC) transition period when pax on the
Thameslink branch to Moorgate will be able to carry on using NR
tickets, after closure in December 2008. It would seem unfair to
them (Thameslink) otherwise...

Has that limitation been announced as part of the Thameslink programme?
Things already appear to be somewhat different on BedPan from the GN.


Yes it's at para 37 of the SofS's 'closure decision letter' - the transition
period is only 2 years though.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/tl...losuredecision

Paul S