This Saturday there is engineering work which means the the West
Ruislip - Marylebone services are diverted to Paddington. Currently
Oyster PAYG is valid on the Marylebone route, but not into Paddington
(this being on the list for spring 2008). Does anyone know if
provision has made for people touching in at West Ruislip and then not
being able to touch out at Paddington during the diversion? Will the
be posters saying that PAYG is not available or will people have to
phone up about unresolved journeys.

"Andy" wrote in message
...
This Saturday there is engineering work which means the the West
Ruislip - Marylebone services are diverted to Paddington. Currently
Oyster PAYG is valid on the Marylebone route, but not into Paddington
(this being on the list for spring 2008). Does anyone know if
provision has made for people touching in at West Ruislip and then not
being able to touch out at Paddington during the diversion? Will the
be posters saying that PAYG is not available or will people have to
phone up about unresolved journeys.

Its a good question, and presumably also relevant to the few Chiltern
services that are already timetabled to use Paddington?

Paul S

On 25 Jan, 11:47, Andy wrote:
This Saturday there is engineering work which means the the West
Ruislip - Marylebone services are diverted to Paddington. Currently
Oyster PAYG is valid on the Marylebone route, but not into Paddington
(this being on the list for spring 2008). Does anyone know if
provision has made for people touching in at West Ruislip and then not
being able to touch out at Paddington during the diversion? Will the
be posters saying that PAYG is not available or will people have to
phone up about unresolved journeys.


I did think about this issue when I noticed the exact same scenario a
few weekends ago. To be honest I very much doubt that there is any
provision for Oyster PAYG on these journeys, as I'm pretty sure Oyster
PAYG just isn't valid for that route - even when trains are diverted
because of planned engineering works. (Besides, I have never come
across any type of temporary, portable Oyster reader that could be
used for this purpose.)

I'd simply suggest that Oyster PAYG is not valid on these services.
Whether Chiltern Railways posters will specifically state this
information I cannot say - their website's section on planned changes
to services certainly doesn't mention Oyster PAYG at all.

However might I propose that Chiltern would argue they already have
this situation covered, because existing publicity already states that
Oyster PAYG is not valid from West/South Ruislip to Paddington. This
is explicitly stated on posters at West Ruislip, because there already
one train every weekday (the 10.12) from West Ruislip to into
Paddington (though the return working does not call at either South or
West Ruislip). Chiltern's posters at West Ruislip alert passengers to
the fact Oyster PAYG cannot be used on this Paddington-bound train,
and therefore they need a paper ticket to use this service.

In addition the fact that PAYG cannot (currently) be used into
Paddington is shown on the map of valid routes for "Oyster PAYG on
National Rail", which should be displayed on posters at stations
served by National Rail routes which accept PAYG, and is also widely
distributed as a leaflet and can also be found via a link on this page
on the National Rail website that details the validity of Oyster on
National Rail:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...ystercard.html

Or here's a direct link to that map (PDF):
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system...OysterPAYG.pdf


It's also worth bearing in mind that, with regards to saturdays
diverted trains, on the West Ruislip to Paddington stretch of the
journey trains are timetabled at just over 30 minutes - which is
basically the same journey time as the Central line from West Ruislip
to Lancaster Gate (which is just around the corner from Paddington),
which takes 32 minutes. However it is true that the return Chiltern
working from Paddington to West Ruislip takes only 20 minutes.

All in all I don't really consider the lack of ability to use Oyster
PAYG between West Ruislip and Paddington this saturday a major
hardship - and it is a situation that will be resolved in the near
future when the new gates go in at Paddington that will enable PAYG to
be accepted on this and other routes.

Let's say however that this saturday a passenger using Oyster PAYG
gets on a Chiltern train at West Ruislip anyway. First off they may
well have to contend with the guard (bearing in mind that Oyster PAYG
is not valid on this route, AFAICS anyway) - but let's say the guard
lets them off. Once they arrive at Paddington they'll need to (or at
least want to) touch-out - and it can be done...

At the moment passengers can reach the Hammersmith and City line
platforms without passing through a gate, and on those platforms are a
couple of standalone Oyster readers. The way to get there without
passing through a gate is to get onto platforms 13/14 (it's likely
that the Chiltern train will arrive on one of these platforms anyway)
then go up the stairs onto the overbridge and then down onto the H&C
line platforms - voila, you can touch-out, and you won't get an
unresolved journey.


I would hope that there would be some information at West Ruislip that
explicitly makes this all clear - as I remember it, the existing
poster is merely concerned with the single daily weekday service to
Paddington. However, unfortunately I would't be in the least bit
surprised to find that there wasn't any such specific info at West
Ruislip regarding saturday's altered services.

On 25 Jan, 15:16, Mizter T wrote:
At the moment passengers can reach the Hammersmith and City line
platforms without passing through a gate, and on those platforms are a
couple of standalone Oyster readers.

Why'd you use the validators? Being touched-in and on the platforms is
a consistent situation already, so you can either go out the gates
like an H&C passenger or continue your tube journey.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

In message
of
Fri, 25 Jan 2008 03:47:27 in uk.transport.london, Andy
writes
This Saturday there is engineering work which means the the West
Ruislip - Marylebone services are diverted to Paddington. Currently
Oyster PAYG is valid on the Marylebone route, but not into Paddington
(this being on the list for spring 2008). Does anyone know if
provision has made for people touching in at West Ruislip and then not
being able to touch out at Paddington during the diversion? Will the
be posters saying that PAYG is not available or will people have to
phone up about unresolved journeys.


I think authority to travel for a given service should be valid on a
replacement. I think it is otherwise not a replacement.

A few weeks ago, I went on an advertised replacement service to Amersham
via Beaconsfield from Marylebone while there was no Metropolitan service
north of Harrow-on-the-Hill.

I touched in and out at both ends of the journey to avoid grief.

I spoke to a CSA at Amersham and was told I was within my rights. At
22.00 on a Saturday night, I thought I was unlikely to meet a Revenue
Protection Inspector.

I don't know the details, but believe TfL has the ability to suspend the
need to touch out. I would not be surprised to find the system does not
work smoothly.

That reminds me, I must chase a charging mistake. On Sunday, I reached
my cap. At Earls Court, I asked a question of a CSA at the Manual Gate
and touched in as I followed him to some information. The system made a
different notation of the event and started a new cap accumulation. By
the time I realised there was a problem, it was too late to get ticket
office staff to resolve the issue. Unfortunately, there is insufficient
detail on the website journey history to explain.
--
Walter Briscoe

On Jan 25, 3:16*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 25 Jan, 11:47, Andy wrote:

This Saturday there is engineering work which means the the West
Ruislip - Marylebone services are diverted to Paddington. Currently
Oyster PAYG is valid on the Marylebone route, but not into Paddington
(this being on the list for spring 2008). Does anyone know if
provision has made for people touching in at West Ruislip and then not
being able to touch out at Paddington during the diversion? Will the
be posters saying that PAYG is not available or will people have to
phone up about unresolved journeys.

I did think about this issue when I noticed the exact same scenario a
few weekends ago. To be honest I very much doubt that there is any
provision for Oyster PAYG on these journeys, as I'm pretty sure Oyster
PAYG just isn't valid for that route - even when trains are diverted
because of planned engineering works. (Besides, I have never come
across any type of temporary, portable Oyster reader that could be
used for this purpose.)

I'd simply suggest that Oyster PAYG is not valid on these services.
Whether Chiltern Railways posters will specifically state this
information I cannot say - their website's section on planned changes
to services certainly doesn't mention Oyster PAYG at all.


Yes, but the normal procedure for engineering work is that normal
tickets are valid via the diversionary route, even if they normally
wouldn't be. So why should a PAYG user have to pay more (say they are
using the oyster cap) just because they are Central line phobic.

On 25 Jan, 15:26, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 25 Jan, 15:16, Mizter T wrote:

At the moment passengers can reach the Hammersmith and City line
platforms without passing through a gate, and on those platforms are a
couple of standalone Oyster readers.

Why'd you use the validators? Being touched-in and on the platforms is
a consistent situation already, so you can either go out the gates
like an H&C passenger or continue your tube journey.

U


Of course, of course, good point - if the passenger wanted to touch-
out, they could do so by simply exiting the gates that exist on the
footbridge.

However I would argue that if a passenger was continuing their journey
on the H&C line a passenger in this situation might want to touch-in
anyway - if they were checked then the RPI might legitimately ask how
a passenger who entered this system at West Ruislip came to be on the
H&C platforms at Paddington without having passed through any other
set of gates (and at least some of the handheld Oyster readers used by
RPIs will provide this more detailed information). Plus swiping your
Oyster mid-journey is not something that causes problems in terms of
the overall journey, at least not in my experience.

Of course this is all a slightly murky discussion given the fact that
Oyster PAYG is not valid on Chiltern from West Ruislip to Paddington.

On 25 Jan, 16:26, Andy wrote:
On Jan 25, 3:16 pm, Mizter T wrote:



On 25 Jan, 11:47, Andy wrote:

This Saturday there is engineering work which means the the West
Ruislip - Marylebone services are diverted to Paddington. Currently
Oyster PAYG is valid on the Marylebone route, but not into Paddington
(this being on the list for spring 2008). Does anyone know if
provision has made for people touching in at West Ruislip and then not
being able to touch out at Paddington during the diversion? Will the
be posters saying that PAYG is not available or will people have to
phone up about unresolved journeys.

I did think about this issue when I noticed the exact same scenario a
few weekends ago. To be honest I very much doubt that there is any
provision for Oyster PAYG on these journeys, as I'm pretty sure Oyster
PAYG just isn't valid for that route - even when trains are diverted
because of planned engineering works. (Besides, I have never come
across any type of temporary, portable Oyster reader that could be
used for this purpose.)

I'd simply suggest that Oyster PAYG is not valid on these services.
Whether Chiltern Railways posters will specifically state this
information I cannot say - their website's section on planned changes
to services certainly doesn't mention Oyster PAYG at all.

Yes, but the normal procedure for engineering work is that normal
tickets are valid via the diversionary route, even if they normally
wouldn't be. So why should a PAYG user have to pay more (say they are
using the oyster cap) just because they are Central line phobic.


Interesting point. I guess one way to explain it would be to say that
Oyster PAYG doesn't count as a "normal ticket" in the conventional
sense. I don't know what the specific rules are with regards to ticket
acceptance on diversionary services, so I couldn't say if Chiltern
were falling foul of them - I can quite imagine that in the whole,
when all the relevant rules are considered, the situation might not be
at all clear cut.

Even on the Underground, when there are engineering works issues there
are issues about Oyster PAYG - for example when LU tickets are
advertised as being valid on local buses (i.e. not specific
replacement buses) when part of an LU line is not working, Oyster PAYG
users would still end up paying for the bus fare.

Thankfully this specific issue of Oyster PAYG and Chiltern running
into Paddington will be resolved shortly when the new gates go in at
Paddington.

Walter Briscoe wrote:

In message
of
Fri, 25 Jan 2008 03:47:27 in uk.transport.london, Andy
writes

This Saturday there is engineering work which means the the West
Ruislip - Marylebone services are diverted to Paddington. Currently
Oyster PAYG is valid on the Marylebone route, but not into Paddington
(this being on the list for spring 2008). Does anyone know if
provision has made for people touching in at West Ruislip and then not
being able to touch out at Paddington during the diversion? Will the
be posters saying that PAYG is not available or will people have to
phone up about unresolved journeys.


I think authority to travel for a given service should be valid on a
replacement. I think it is otherwise not a replacement.

A few weeks ago, I went on an advertised replacement service to Amersham
via Beaconsfield from Marylebone while there was no Metropolitan service
north of Harrow-on-the-Hill.

I touched in and out at both ends of the journey to avoid grief.

I spoke to a CSA at Amersham and was told I was within my rights. At
22.00 on a Saturday night, I thought I was unlikely to meet a Revenue
Protection Inspector.


If it was advertised as a replacement service by LU, that all sounds
legit. Whether staff at Amersham had been briefed that this might
happen is another question!


I don't know the details, but believe TfL has the ability to suspend the
need to touch out. I would not be surprised to find the system does not
work smoothly.


When the Chelsea Flower Show is on, I understand that a side door to
Sloane Square Underground station is opened specifically for Flower
Show bound punters - there is no gate and no facility for passengers
to touch-out. However what then happens is that these same passengers
are presumed to make a return journey by Underground, and so will pass
through the gates of Sloane Square to enter the station - when they so
do, everything get resolved properly. However if they do not, they
incur the £4 maximum fare. This implementation attracted some negative
comment last year - people obviously got refunded if they complained,
but of course that's a pain nonetheless - so it might be done
differently this year. We shall see.

Separately, I've encountered a journey being "auto-completed" once. On
New Year's Eve 2006/07 I was making a rather inadvisable late hop
between parties with a friend (who was using a Travelcard). I touched-
in as normal through the gates, but on exit at Camden Town at 23.40
(i.e. 5 minutes before NYE free travel officially begins) the gates
were already open and what's more were completely turned off (Oyster
pads and all). Whatever, I was in a rush!

The next day I returned from Camden Town, and *before* going through
the gates I checked my journey history on a ticket machine - my
journey was shown as being "Bank - Auto-completed" (Bank is an example
start point of course... or maybe I was partying with the Old Lady of
Threadneedle Street, it's all a bit hazy). So there was some
configuration change which meant I didn't get charged the max fare on
entry (which is normal, as it is then adjusted later) - perhaps the
whole system was changed from say 21.45 on the 31st so as to only
charge people the minimum fare.

I intended to keep a permanent record of this journey history entry,
but alas I didn't.

Anyway with regards to the specific situation - what you seem to be
proposing is that for the duration of the engineering works the max
fare charging element is turned off at West Ruislip, however that
would mean that passengers entering or exiting West Ruislip were only
charged the minimum fare from that station, which is £1 at any time.

Or the more sophisticated alternative is that the max fare on entry
debited at West Ruislip was adjusted to be that of a zone 1-5 journey
(£2, or £3.50 weekdays between 7am-7pm), and that any unresolved
journey to/from West Ruislip was also included in the daily capping
that day - with the presumption that any journey to/from West Ruislip
that was unresolved (i.e. only an entry or exit) was a journey to or
from Paddington/zone 1.

I don't know how difficulty it would be to make the latter changes, or
even if it was possible, but if it was then I'm pretty sure it would
cover the situation that will arise when Chiltern trains divert to/
from Paddington.


That reminds me, I must chase a charging mistake. On Sunday, I reached
my cap. At Earls Court, I asked a question of a CSA at the Manual Gate
and touched in as I followed him to some information. The system made a
different notation of the event and started a new cap accumulation. By
the time I realised there was a problem, it was too late to get ticket
office staff to resolve the issue. Unfortunately, there is insufficient
detail on the website journey history to explain.
--
Walter Briscoe


That sounds a bit peculiar, however it might be as a result of the
fact that system does not know whether you were coming or going -
touching on an Oyster pad, unlike touching on a gate, doesn't provides
any indication as to whether you were entering or exiting the system.

Where had you been earlier - I'm not looking for an account of all
your movements (!), just some basics - i.e. Had you exited Earls Court
earlier on? If so how much earlier? If not had you exited another
station earlier on?

My experience thus far has indicated that the Oyster system is fairly
robust, and can cope with unusual events, so I'm interested in what
comes of this..

That reminds me, I must chase a charging mistake. On Sunday, I reached
my cap. At Earls Court, I asked a question of a CSA at the Manual Gate
and touched in as I followed him to some information. The system made a
different notation of the event and started a new cap accumulation. By
the time I realised there was a problem, it was too late to get ticket
office staff to resolve the issue. Unfortunately, there is insufficient
detail on the website journey history to explain.

I get a similar thing nearly everytime I use Oyster. I touch in, and touch
out. It doesn't recognise me touching out, and then my next nourney in the
day is counted as two journeys, both starting at the very first station that
I touched in.

For example, if I go Canada Water to Picadilly Circus, then Picadilly Circus
to West Hampstead, Oyster displays:

Canada Water -- Picadilly Circus
Canada Water -- West Hampstead

Oh so very annoying.

LEWIS