On 5 Feb, 15:00, "Budstaff"
wrote:
"spindrift" wrote in message

...



"Apparently there is evidence to
suggest that the figure may be _reduced_ if bikes and PTW's both use
bus
lanes. If that is the case, what will your position on sharing be? "

Based on 3 trials, one of which was stopped.

There's no data in the article or quotes from the report, just vague
statements like, "conditions for cyclists did not significantly
deteriorate". None of that is particularly reassuring. Apparently the
methodology of the study is also in question.

I really don't want more mopeds and motorbikes trying to squeeze into
cycle lanes - they do enough of that already. As for bus lanes, in
London there are already countless cabbies (and private coaches)
bullying cyclists in these.

I also have a general problem with motorbikes - they tend to break the
speed limits even more that cars, and enjoy seeing how quickly they
can accelerate away from lights and put on bursts of speed between
lights. I really don't want them doing that a few inches from me in a
bus lane thanks.

"I note with mild (if regretful) satisfaction that you no longer take
issue
with the assertion that you are anti-motorcyclist. "

I'm not anti-motor cyclist or anti-motorist, I've asked you nine times
now to show a quote from me that proves otherwise.

You've asked me twice, ref motorcycles. You've snipped the proof I gave from
this very post. No reasonable person could say what you say, or cite what,
you site, and _not_ be either anti-motorcyclist or highly confused.

Take your pick.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I repeat, if highlighting the high accident rates between PTWs abnd
cyclists is "anti-motorist" then so are drink driving adverts.

Look, we both admit the data is sketchy.

Whether something is really safer or not is of secondary importance to
policy makers tasked with promoting cycling. What matters to them is
how safe cycling feels, and if sharing bus lanes with motorbikes feels
more scary to cyclists, especially the less confident "growth tip" of
the cycling population, which it does, it'll not fit with that policy.

On 5 Feb, 15:03, "Budstaff"
wrote:
"spindrift" wrote in message

...





"Apparently there is evidence to
suggest that the figure may be _reduced_ if bikes and PTW's both use
bus
lanes. If that is the case, what will your position on sharing be? "

Based on 3 trials, one of which was stopped.

There's no data in the article or quotes from the report, just vague
statements like, "conditions for cyclists did not significantly
deteriorate". None of that is particularly reassuring. Apparently the
methodology of the study is also in question.

I really don't want more mopeds and motorbikes trying to squeeze into
cycle lanes - they do enough of that already. As for bus lanes, in
London there are already countless cabbies (and private coaches)
bullying cyclists in these.

I also have a general problem with motorbikes - they tend to break the
speed limits even more that cars, and enjoy seeing how quickly they
can accelerate away from lights and put on bursts of speed between
lights. I really don't want them doing that a few inches from me in a
bus lane thanks.

"I note with mild (if regretful) satisfaction that you no longer take
issue
with the assertion that you are anti-motorcyclist. "

I'm not anti-motor cyclist or anti-motorist, I've asked you nine times
now to show a quote from me that proves otherwise.

Still waiting.

"I have a general problem with motorbikes/ I'm not anti-motor cyclist."

ROTFL- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have a general problem with snails in the garden. I'm not anti snail
-

spindrift (spindrift ) gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

"I think it's pathetic that the most vocally and notoriously anti-
motorist/anti-motorcyclist poster on the whole Internet denies being
anything of the sort. "

I am asking for evidence for this.

I've asked seven times now.

If my views were as "anti-motorist" as you claim it strikes me a strange
that you can't actually find any examples....


"Can you name any anti-motorist
or anti-motorcyclist measures (which are not also intended to be anti-
cyclist) which you oppose? "


I'm asking you what these mythical "anti-motorist" measures are. Once
you do so I'll be happy to give my opinion.

Perhaps you missed my question, what on earth made you think any of the
Telegraph quotes are mine please?

I've asked you nicely. I thought you'd learnt. Obviously not.

SORT YOUR ****ING QUOTING OUT, YOU INCOMPETENT ****.

I have absolutely no idea who that reply is to.

"I have absolutely no idea who that reply is to"

Read the thread.

Nuxx, you're still here, got that evidence yet?

"spindrift" wrote in message
...
On 5 Feb, 15:00, "Budstaff"
wrote:
"spindrift" wrote in message

...



"Apparently there is evidence to
suggest that the figure may be _reduced_ if bikes and PTW's both use
bus
lanes. If that is the case, what will your position on sharing be? "

Based on 3 trials, one of which was stopped.

There's no data in the article or quotes from the report, just vague
statements like, "conditions for cyclists did not significantly
deteriorate". None of that is particularly reassuring. Apparently the
methodology of the study is also in question.

I really don't want more mopeds and motorbikes trying to squeeze into
cycle lanes - they do enough of that already. As for bus lanes, in
London there are already countless cabbies (and private coaches)
bullying cyclists in these.

I also have a general problem with motorbikes - they tend to break the
speed limits even more that cars, and enjoy seeing how quickly they
can accelerate away from lights and put on bursts of speed between
lights. I really don't want them doing that a few inches from me in a
bus lane thanks.

"I note with mild (if regretful) satisfaction that you no longer take
issue
with the assertion that you are anti-motorcyclist. "

I'm not anti-motor cyclist or anti-motorist, I've asked you nine times
now to show a quote from me that proves otherwise.

You've asked me twice, ref motorcycles. You've snipped the proof I gave
from
this very post. No reasonable person could say what you say, or cite
what,
you site, and _not_ be either anti-motorcyclist or highly confused.

Take your pick.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I repeat, if highlighting the high accident rates between PTWs abnd
cyclists is "anti-motorist" then so are drink driving adverts.

Look, we both admit the data is sketchy.

Whether something is really safer or not is of secondary importance to
policy makers tasked with promoting cycling. What matters to them is
how safe cycling feels, and if sharing bus lanes with motorbikes feels
more scary to cyclists, especially the less confident "growth tip" of
the cycling population, which it does, it'll not fit with that policy.

I think you're confusing two things. I've not disputed your accident rates
for PTW/cyclists, merely the relevance of that data to the issue of bus-lane
sharing. And it's not your quoting of that data that makes you
anti-motorcycle. It's your view, re-stated above, that you would put the
feelings of cyclists above the safety of motorcyclists, which is 'of
secondary importance.... to promoting cycling'.

Really not much point in discussing the matter further.

On 5 Feb, 15:14, "Budstaff"
wrote:
"spindrift" wrote in message

...





On 5 Feb, 15:00, "Budstaff"
wrote:
"spindrift" wrote in message

...

"Apparently there is evidence to
suggest that the figure may be _reduced_ if bikes and PTW's both use
bus
lanes. If that is the case, what will your position on sharing be? "

Based on 3 trials, one of which was stopped.

There's no data in the article or quotes from the report, just vague
statements like, "conditions for cyclists did not significantly
deteriorate". None of that is particularly reassuring. Apparently the
methodology of the study is also in question.

I really don't want more mopeds and motorbikes trying to squeeze into
cycle lanes - they do enough of that already. As for bus lanes, in
London there are already countless cabbies (and private coaches)
bullying cyclists in these.

I also have a general problem with motorbikes - they tend to break the
speed limits even more that cars, and enjoy seeing how quickly they
can accelerate away from lights and put on bursts of speed between
lights. I really don't want them doing that a few inches from me in a
bus lane thanks.

"I note with mild (if regretful) satisfaction that you no longer take
issue
with the assertion that you are anti-motorcyclist. "

I'm not anti-motor cyclist or anti-motorist, I've asked you nine times
now to show a quote from me that proves otherwise.

You've asked me twice, ref motorcycles. You've snipped the proof I gave
from
this very post. No reasonable person could say what you say, or cite
what,
you site, and _not_ be either anti-motorcyclist or highly confused.

Take your pick.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I repeat, if highlighting the high accident rates between PTWs abnd
cyclists is "anti-motorist" then so are drink driving adverts.

Look, we both admit the data is sketchy.

Whether something is really safer or not is of secondary importance to
policy makers tasked with promoting cycling. What matters to them is
how safe cycling feels, and if sharing bus lanes with motorbikes feels
more scary to cyclists, especially the less confident "growth tip" of
the cycling population, which it does, it'll not fit with that policy.

I think you're confusing two things. I've not disputed your accident rates
for PTW/cyclists, merely the relevance of that data to the issue of bus-lane
sharing. And it's not your quoting of that data that makes you
anti-motorcycle. It's your view, re-stated above, that you would put the
feelings of cyclists above the safety of motorcyclists, which is 'of
secondary importance.... to promoting cycling'.

Really not much point in discussing the matter further.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Accidents are more frequent between PTWs and cyclists. In a discussion
relating to allowing PTWs where cyclists cycle I would have thought
mentioning this fact was pertinent. Crucial, even.

If you have evidence that bus lanes are safer for cyclists please post
it, I rely on the evidence that it's more dangerous for cyclists and
discourages cycling.

What next? Many ASLs have feeder lanes from bus lanes, will PTWs start
abusing ASLs more than they already do?

spindrift (spindrift ) gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

"I have absolutely no idea who that reply is to"

Read the thread.

Oh, ffs... GoogleGroups luser, are you? You seem unable to comprehend how
a proper news client works.

"spindrift" wrote in message
...
On 5 Feb, 15:14, "Budstaff"
wrote:
"spindrift" wrote in message

...





On 5 Feb, 15:00, "Budstaff"
wrote:
"spindrift" wrote in message

...

"Apparently there is evidence to
suggest that the figure may be _reduced_ if bikes and PTW's both use
bus
lanes. If that is the case, what will your position on sharing be? "

Based on 3 trials, one of which was stopped.

There's no data in the article or quotes from the report, just vague
statements like, "conditions for cyclists did not significantly
deteriorate". None of that is particularly reassuring. Apparently
the
methodology of the study is also in question.

I really don't want more mopeds and motorbikes trying to squeeze
into
cycle lanes - they do enough of that already. As for bus lanes, in
London there are already countless cabbies (and private coaches)
bullying cyclists in these.

I also have a general problem with motorbikes - they tend to break
the
speed limits even more that cars, and enjoy seeing how quickly they
can accelerate away from lights and put on bursts of speed between
lights. I really don't want them doing that a few inches from me in
a
bus lane thanks.

"I note with mild (if regretful) satisfaction that you no longer
take
issue
with the assertion that you are anti-motorcyclist. "

I'm not anti-motor cyclist or anti-motorist, I've asked you nine
times
now to show a quote from me that proves otherwise.

You've asked me twice, ref motorcycles. You've snipped the proof I
gave
from
this very post. No reasonable person could say what you say, or cite
what,
you site, and _not_ be either anti-motorcyclist or highly confused.

Take your pick.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I repeat, if highlighting the high accident rates between PTWs abnd
cyclists is "anti-motorist" then so are drink driving adverts.

Look, we both admit the data is sketchy.

Whether something is really safer or not is of secondary importance to
policy makers tasked with promoting cycling. What matters to them is
how safe cycling feels, and if sharing bus lanes with motorbikes feels
more scary to cyclists, especially the less confident "growth tip" of
the cycling population, which it does, it'll not fit with that policy.

I think you're confusing two things. I've not disputed your accident
rates
for PTW/cyclists, merely the relevance of that data to the issue of
bus-lane
sharing. And it's not your quoting of that data that makes you
anti-motorcycle. It's your view, re-stated above, that you would put the
feelings of cyclists above the safety of motorcyclists, which is 'of
secondary importance.... to promoting cycling'.

Really not much point in discussing the matter further.- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

Accidents are more frequent between PTWs and cyclists. In a discussion
relating to allowing PTWs where cyclists cycle I would have thought
mentioning this fact was pertinent. Crucial, even.

Not crucial, barely pertinent. This thread was started with a post quoting
an article in the Torygraph that suggested that a study of shared lanes in
london showed that they improved safety for all parties, and that this was
being suppressed by those whose prejudices were not confirmed. Your position
is similar to being anti seatbelt because those who _don't- wear them get
injured. Until the report comes out, and there is no suggestion of spin, I'd
say the jury was out, in the absence of any data to date that says that
cyclists are more at risk in bus lanes shared by PTW's. I live in a town
(Colchester) where most bus lanes are open to PTW's and have not yet heard
of a single incident - but I would not cite my personal experience as
evidence of the safety of the practice. I'd rather wait for a proper study,
and welcome the appearance of a conclusive answer when it comes. And if as I
result my motorbike is banned from the bus lanes, then I'll accept that. But
I somehow doubt that you'll accept it if it isn't.

If you have evidence that bus lanes are safer for cyclists please post
it, I rely on the evidence that it's more dangerous for cyclists and
discourages cycling.

What next? Many ASLs have feeder lanes from bus lanes, will PTWs start
abusing ASLs more than they already do?

What next? will you call for bus lanes to be redesignated as cycle lanes
because of th undoubted danger that buses pose?

On 5 Feb, 15:33, "Budstaff"
wrote:
"spindrift" wrote in message

...





On 5 Feb, 15:14, "Budstaff"
wrote:
"spindrift" wrote in message

...

On 5 Feb, 15:00, "Budstaff"
wrote:
"spindrift" wrote in message

...

"Apparently there is evidence to
suggest that the figure may be _reduced_ if bikes and PTW's both use
bus
lanes. If that is the case, what will your position on sharing be? "

Based on 3 trials, one of which was stopped.

There's no data in the article or quotes from the report, just vague
statements like, "conditions for cyclists did not significantly
deteriorate". None of that is particularly reassuring. Apparently
the
methodology of the study is also in question.

I really don't want more mopeds and motorbikes trying to squeeze
into
cycle lanes - they do enough of that already. As for bus lanes, in
London there are already countless cabbies (and private coaches)
bullying cyclists in these.

I also have a general problem with motorbikes - they tend to break
the
speed limits even more that cars, and enjoy seeing how quickly they
can accelerate away from lights and put on bursts of speed between
lights. I really don't want them doing that a few inches from me in
a
bus lane thanks.

"I note with mild (if regretful) satisfaction that you no longer
take
issue
with the assertion that you are anti-motorcyclist. "

I'm not anti-motor cyclist or anti-motorist, I've asked you nine
times
now to show a quote from me that proves otherwise.

You've asked me twice, ref motorcycles. You've snipped the proof I
gave
from
this very post. No reasonable person could say what you say, or cite
what,
you site, and _not_ be either anti-motorcyclist or highly confused.

Take your pick.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I repeat, if highlighting the high accident rates between PTWs abnd
cyclists is "anti-motorist" then so are drink driving adverts.

Look, we both admit the data is sketchy.

Whether something is really safer or not is of secondary importance to
policy makers tasked with promoting cycling. What matters to them is
how safe cycling feels, and if sharing bus lanes with motorbikes feels
more scary to cyclists, especially the less confident "growth tip" of
the cycling population, which it does, it'll not fit with that policy.

I think you're confusing two things. I've not disputed your accident
rates
for PTW/cyclists, merely the relevance of that data to the issue of
bus-lane
sharing. And it's not your quoting of that data that makes you
anti-motorcycle. It's your view, re-stated above, that you would put the
feelings of cyclists above the safety of motorcyclists, which is 'of
secondary importance.... to promoting cycling'.

Really not much point in discussing the matter further.- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

Accidents are more frequent between PTWs and cyclists. In a discussion
relating to allowing PTWs where cyclists cycle I would have thought
mentioning this fact was pertinent. Crucial, even.

Not crucial, barely pertinent. This thread was started with a post quoting
an article in the Torygraph that suggested that a study of shared lanes in
london showed that they improved safety for all parties, and that this was
being suppressed by those whose prejudices were not confirmed. Your position
is similar to being anti seatbelt because those who _don't- wear them get
injured. Until the report comes out, and there is no suggestion of spin, I'd
say the jury was out, in the absence of any data to date that says that
cyclists are more at risk in bus lanes shared by PTW's. I live in a town
(Colchester) where most bus lanes are open to PTW's and have not yet heard
of a single incident - but I would not cite my personal experience as
evidence of the safety of the practice. I'd rather wait for a proper study,
and welcome the appearance of a conclusive answer when it comes. And if as I
result my motorbike is banned from the bus lanes, then I'll accept that. But
I somehow doubt that you'll accept it if it isn't.

If you have evidence that bus lanes are safer for cyclists please post
it, I rely on the evidence that it's more dangerous for cyclists and
discourages cycling.

What next? Many ASLs have feeder lanes from bus lanes, will PTWs start
abusing ASLs more than they already do?

What next? will you call for bus lanes to be redesignated as cycle lanes
because of th undoubted danger that buses pose?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

They have excluded the results of the A13 study because that showed a
major impact on cycle use - a fall of over 80% forcing cyclists out of
it. This is a statistical fudge similar to helmet compunction in
australia saving lives cos fewer cyclists were hurt cos there were
much fewer cyclists!

We can agree to disagree budstaff, and thanks for your courtesy, I'm
far more interested in nuxx bar's unhealthy interest in me and
dishonesty regarding my views but it looks like he's buggered orff
now....

spindrift (spindrift ) gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

This is a statistical fudge similar to helmet compunction in australia
saving lives cos fewer cyclists were hurt cos there were much fewer
cyclists!

Hmmm. Either that was indeed seriously flawed, or you don't understand
the concept of "per million (or whatever) vehicle kilometres"

I know where my money lies.