MIG wrote:

On Feb 16, 12:42�pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 16 Feb, 11:57, "tim \(not at home\)"
wrote:

"MIG" wrote:

On Feb 15, 10:06 pm, "tim \(not at home\)"
wrote:

(snip)

(I have assumed that you were wanting to 'collect' an online purchase of a
new season ticket by touching the validator. But as I have never had an
Oyster season I really have no idea if it works like this).

tim

For online purchases it does indeed work like this. Notionally one
needs to make a journey to do this, i.e. touch-in at one station and
touch-out at the other. One is certainly required to do that when
collecting a PAYG top-up or (setting up auto top-up), however given
that Travelcard users are not penalised for not touching-in/out I
expect that this doesn't matter - however I will endeavour to confirm
my expectation and report back here when I do.

Presumably (or perhaps I shouldn't presume) if you touch in at an NR
station that's got Oyster readers but no Oyster selling (like Putney I
think) with a zone 1 - 2 travelcard, and then, I dunno, do some kind
of trip via West Brompton and get off at Acton Town, it will record
you as having touched in at Putney (despite PAYG not being valid) and
charge the Oyster fare from the boundary at Turnham Green? Or would
it require a separate touch in at some intermediate point where your
travelcard was still valid?


Well, first off I would probably choose a less roundabout route
starting from East Putney but never mind that! (One could of course be
accompanying friends etc for part of the route.)

AIUI your Oyster card would not get electronically 'marked' at Putney
whatsoever - the NR gates at locations where PAYG is *not* valid are
dumb, all they do is check for the presence of a valid Travelcard
(i.e. does it cover the zone the station is in, and is it in date?).

Beyond that, to be honest I'm not actually totally sure what happens
in such a situation. I certainly used to be sure in thinking that
passengers needed to touch-in before they joined a PAYG route - in
this case at Clapham Junction or West Brompton - so as to register a
start point with the system for the PAYG journey that they were about
to undertake, otherwise how would the Oyster system know where you had
started from. Also if you had your ticket checked when outside your
Travelcard's zones then surely there would be a presumption that you
had never touched-in.

I certainly read the advice to passengers from TfL as recommending
they do that - "Oyster Pay-as-you-go users much touch-in" the signs
say, and a passenger combining a Travelcard and PAYG in one journey is
thus a Pay-as-you-go user. However I can absolutely see the potential
for passenger confusion - they had already touched-in at Putney, they
may well think.

A recent post here however led me to think that *perhaps* the system
is configured differently, and that if a passenger exits the LU
network (e.g. through gates or touches-out elsewhere) without having
touched-in, but holds a valid Travelcard on their Oyster that
*doesn't* cover the zone their exit station is in, then the passenger
will be given the benefit of the doubt and merely charged the extra
for the zones beyond their Travelcard's validity.

However I'm not sure about whether this really is the case. If it was,
then it could mean that a passenger with a zones 2&3 Travelcard could
join an FCC Thameslink train at an ungated station in south London,
for example Herne Hill - or indeed a passenger with a zones 2-6
Travelcard could enter through the dumb (non-PAYG enabled) gates at
East Croydon - and they could then travel direct to Farringdon (PAYG
being valid on Thameslink north of Elephant & Castle), exit anywhere
in zone 1 and merely be charged the extra for zone 1. That might make
some sense in itself, but it would thus mean there could be passengers
travelling around without validated Oyster cards - which would be a
problem if they encountered an RPI (whether from FCC or LU).

*If* it is the case - and that is a big if - then I would suggest it
merely gives the passenger the benefit of the doubt rather than
legitimises their actions. I will certainly look into it this, though
when I do I'll make sure that I'm holding another unquestionably valid
ticket separately.

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

That certainly shouldn't have been the case - if gates are left open
for any reason then the Oyster readers on them should remain powered
on - though they will only active for the relevant direction (in or
out) as shown on the display on the gate

I think that there were a few reports of similar troubles at LU
stations when the Oyster system first began, and perhaps staff
hadn't fully appreciated the necessity for the gates to remain active
at all times even when locked open. The gates at City Thameslink are
pretty new, so perhaps the staff there haven't got the hang of things.
That's not me making an excuse for them, just providing a possible
explanation.

Thanks for the explanation.


... Incidentally did you enquire about / did they offer the possibility

of obtaining a refund by cheque in the post?

Nope, I didn't realise it would be an option, and although not regularly
in London I did know I would be making another visit, and obviously
wouldn't need to use the card in the meantime, so I accepted the offer of
a "topup" refund.

Alan

MIG wrote:

On Feb 15, 11:11�pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 15 Feb, 21:35, MIG wrote:

On Feb 15, 9:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:

MIG wrote:

Why oh why oh why won't they just sell reasonably-priced extension
tickets to people who can show a paper ticket/travelcard for part of
the journey? The punishment cash fares for not using Oyster won't
teach them any kind of lesson apart from not to use the Underground.

The whole point of the pricey paper ticket fares is, as you well know,
to move people off paper tickets and onto Oyster. Offering "reasonably-
priced extension tickets" to those with paper Travelcards is hardly
compatible with that aim.

If you do wish to avoid Oyster then one way making Tube journeys
beyond your Travelcard's zones is to buy a zones 2-6 Day Travelcard -
this costs £4.80 off-peak (i.e. after 0930). This is obviously cheaper
than buying 2 x £3 single extension fares on paper tickets (the £3
fare would cover all Tube journeys except those beyond zone 6 on the
Met line).

I do however quite disagree with your notions about the "punishment
cash fares" - I think that charging the 'max cash fare' does indeed
strongly get across the message that one needs to touch-in and out for
each and every journey. It's a bit harsh but I'd suggest it is
effective. I've had it happen to me - I was indeed annoyed when I
realised it had happened, but since then I've always been careful to
touch-in and out. I've heard similar stories from others, and it
hasn't led them to be despondent about the Oyster system as a whole

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken (or there
isn't one).

I'm not quite sure where this broken Oyster machine might be, as it
can't be at a south London railway station as they don't exist at
these stations, primarily because you can't use Oyster PAYG on rail
routes in south London.

Unless of course it is the one at Lewisham you're referring to - where
there is indeed a single machine, presumably for the primary benefit
of DLR passengers who wish to top up their Oyster PAYG, though of
course of significant secondary benefit to those who want season
Travelcards on Oyster. If that is the one then yes, I have indeed
noticed that it gets sick more than any others - perhaps simply
because, whilst under cover, it is effectively outdoors...


I have used that one at times. Also, having intended to use it, had
to get a paper travelcard (you can't really suggest leaving the
station, which has no adjacent shops, looking for an Oyster Stop,
rather than just going to the counter for a paper one).


I suppose I wouldn't rely on that one machine being working, and would
instead get it from an Oyster Ticket Stop elsewhere en route to the
station. I might also try and buy a Travelcard in advance (e.g. to
start 'tomorrow') using that machine, and if I failed to do so because
the machine was knackered then I would purchase it elsewhere (e.g. at
a Tube station at the other end of my journey).


In the last few weeks I was there and the counters had just started
dealing in Oyster. I haven't bought anything at Lewisham since then
though. On the day I saw notices informing people of it, the whole
lot was closed.


I hadn't noticed that the ticket office at Lewisham had started to
deal with Oyster, nor did I know they were planning to, but I'm very
glad to hear that it now does - I wonder if Greenwich station does too
now?

Perhaps Southeastern became aware of just how much custom they were
losing at Lewisham from people buying their Travelcards on Oyster from
the machine there, perhaps by comparing like for like sales over the
past few years, or maybe simply through observation of how busy the
machine was (in particular with people who then headed towards the
mainline platforms, as opposed to the DLR).



OK, well I have a number of solutions for someone in this boat.

The solutions involve assuming in advance that the machine won't work
(in this case). There's something not quite right about that.


Machines break, so as I said above I wouldn't rely on it working all
the time. However, if I bought my Travelcard in advance then I could
well make use of it - and if it didn't work then I would work around
that.


(three alternative methods of purchase snipped)

All the above methods require a bit of advance planning - though with
the third method you can benefit from a reminder email which is
helpful. I understand that not everyone is always that organised - I'm
certainly capable of fantastic/absurd feats of disorganisation -
however, these methods are are there if people want to make use of
them

I do understand that there are ways in which someone in South London
who knows what days they need a travelcard for in future could get it
put on their Oyster in advance.

I just don't see why going to a station from which you are starting a
journey, in order to get or renew a ticket for that journey, requires
any level of disorganisation or should be treated with contempt.

There are reasons why people find themselves in possession of a paper
travelcard. I don't think there's any moral justification for the
hassles they then face if they then need to do something like go one
zone extra on LU one day. It's not like they pay any less for it.



I agree that it is somewhat absurd that the station from which you
start your journey cannot sell you a ticket in the format that you
want it on. However, if one is making a regular commute then things
are predictable and thus one can work around this without an immense
amount of effort - one could suggest that if one wants Oyster then the
station ticket office has just been moved to the corner shop that's
just up the road from the station.

I know people who don't have a regular commute- instead it varies
widely (wildly in fact) all over London - but they manage to buy the
season Travelcards they need OK with a trip to the newsagent. A bit of
a faff, but ultimately worth it for the hassle that one subsequently
avoid when they travel outside their Travelcard's zones on the
increasing number of PAYG routes. I just feel you're making mountains
out of a molehills - big, annoying molehills - but they are not an
insurmountable issue.

Of course when the TOCs eventually get real and agree to accept PAYG
across all their route in London then their ticket offices, and
hopefully at least some of their ticket machines, will also manage to
sell both PAYG top-ups and Travelcards on Oyster. It will happen.
Eventually. Then I'll be able to buy my season Travelcards from the
helpful staff at my local station.

On Feb 16, 1:50*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message

...

On 15 Feb, 22:46, "Paul Scott" wrote:

I think you're right, I've used the District line 'platform validators'
at
Wimbledon in both directions when changing from LU to NR, a couple of
times
this year, seems to work just as you'd expect, same as many other NR/LU
combined stations where access is on the paid side of the gates.

It's just that oddly worded FAQ answer on the 'oyster help' website
that threw me somewhat. However if it was configured any differently
it would be most odd, and I can't really think of how one would
configure it any differently (at least not in the way that is
suggested by that FAQ answer).

With respect to the special case of Wimbledon & Trams, large areas of South
London will presumably be similarly special cases for tram interchanges once
all the NR suburban services come into the PAYG system - how many more
tram/rail stations will there be?


The only other 'internal' tram/rail stations will be Elmers End and
Mitcham Junction. At all the other interchanges (Beckenham Junction,
Birkbeck plus West and East Croydon), the tramlink stop is outside the
station. I'd be surprised if any of these stations become 'closed'
with full barriers after PAYG is introduced, mainly as Tramlink has
opened these stations up with new entrances. Even Mitcham Junction has
separation between the Tramlink platforms and the Network Rail ones.
Wimbledon had barriers before Tramlink arrived and so the introduction
of Oyster seems to have been a bit of a compromise.

I wonder if Jan 09 will see any changes to the tram zoning - its a bit of an
odd setup at the moment after all...


If you think of Tramlink as a bus, it all makes sense. The only
problem being that it is a bus that appears on the rail maps. The only
difference from buses is that travelcard seasons have to include one
of zones 3-6 to be valid.
The current arrangement is certainly less odd that the original setup
when Wimbledon needed extra validity.

Paul S

On 16 Feb, 16:46, Mizter T wrote:
A recent post here however led me to think that *perhaps* the system
is configured differently, and that if a passenger exits the LU
network (e.g. through gates or touches-out elsewhere) without having
touched-in, but holds a valid Travelcard on their Oyster that
*doesn't* cover the zone their exit station is in, then the passenger
will be given the benefit of the doubt and merely charged the extra
for the zones beyond their Travelcard's validity.

I'm fairly certain this is the case, though I'm surprised they allow
it.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On Feb 16, 5:21Â*pm, Mizter T wrote:
MIG wrote:
On Feb 15, 11:11�pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 15 Feb, 21:35, MIG wrote:

On Feb 15, 9:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:

MIG wrote:

Why oh why oh why won't they just sell reasonably-priced extension
tickets to people who can show a paper ticket/travelcard for part of
the journey? The punishment cash fares for not using Oyster won't
teach them any kind of lesson apart from not to use the Underground.

The whole point of the pricey paper ticket fares is, as you well know,
to move people off paper tickets and onto Oyster. Offering "reasonably-
priced extension tickets" to those with paper Travelcards is hardly
compatible with that aim.

If you do wish to avoid Oyster then one way making Tube journeys
beyond your Travelcard's zones is to buy a zones 2-6 Day Travelcard -
this costs £4.80 off-peak (i.e. after 0930). This is obviously cheaper
than buying 2 x £3 single extension fares on paper tickets (the £3
fare would cover all Tube journeys except those beyond zone 6 on the
Met line).

I do however quite disagree with your notions about the "punishment
cash fares" - I think that charging the 'max cash fare' does indeed
strongly get across the message that one needs to touch-in and out for
each and every journey. It's a bit harsh but I'd suggest it is
effective. I've had it happen to me - I was indeed annoyed when I
realised it had happened, but since then I've always been careful to
touch-in and out. I've heard similar stories from others, and it
hasn't led them to be despondent about the Oyster system as a whole

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken (or there
isn't one).

I'm not quite sure where this broken Oyster machine might be, as it
can't be at a south London railway station as they don't exist at
these stations, primarily because you can't use Oyster PAYG on rail
routes in south London.

Unless of course it is the one at Lewisham you're referring to - where
there is indeed a single machine, presumably for the primary benefit
of DLR passengers who wish to top up their Oyster PAYG, though of
course of significant secondary benefit to those who want season
Travelcards on Oyster. If that is the one then yes, I have indeed
noticed that it gets sick more than any others - perhaps simply
because, whilst under cover, it is effectively outdoors...

I have used that one at times. Â*Also, having intended to use it, had
to get a paper travelcard (you can't really suggest leaving the
station, which has no adjacent shops, looking for an Oyster Stop,
rather than just going to the counter for a paper one).

I suppose I wouldn't rely on that one machine being working, and would
instead get it from an Oyster Ticket Stop elsewhere en route to the
station. I might also try and buy a Travelcard in advance (e.g. to
start 'tomorrow') using that machine, and if I failed to do so because
the machine was knackered then I would purchase it elsewhere (e.g. at
a Tube station at the other end of my journey).

Believe me, if I passed an Oyster stop on the way to a station on a
day when I needed to to renew a travelcard, I would do so at that
first opportunity. Unfortunately, my routes to stations are usually
in opposite directions from such shops.

In the last few weeks I was there and the counters had just started
dealing in Oyster. Â*I haven't bought anything at Lewisham since then
though. Â*On the day I saw notices informing people of it, the whole
lot was closed.

I hadn't noticed that the ticket office at Lewisham had started to
deal with Oyster, nor did I know they were planning to, but I'm very
glad to hear that it now does - I wonder if Greenwich station does too
now?

Perhaps Southeastern became aware of just how much custom they were
losing at Lewisham from people buying their Travelcards on Oyster from
the machine there, perhaps by comparing like for like sales over the
past few years, or maybe simply through observation of how busy the
machine was (in particular with people who then headed towards the
mainline platforms, as opposed to the DLR).



OK, well I have a number of solutions for someone in this boat.

The solutions involve assuming in advance that the machine won't work
(in this case). Â*There's something not quite right about that.

Machines break, so as I said above I wouldn't rely on it working all
the time. However, if I bought my Travelcard in advance then I could
well make use of it - and if it didn't work then I would work around
that.







(three alternative methods of purchase snipped)

All the above methods require a bit of advance planning - though with
the third method you can benefit from a reminder email which is
helpful. I understand that not everyone is always that organised - I'm
certainly capable of fantastic/absurd feats of disorganisation -
however, these methods are are there if people want to make use of
them

I do understand that there are ways in which someone in South London
who knows what days they need a travelcard for in future could get it
put on their Oyster in advance.

I just don't see why going to a station from which you are starting a
journey, in order to get or renew a ticket for that journey, requires
any level of disorganisation or should be treated with contempt.

There are reasons why people find themselves in possession of a paper
travelcard. Â*I don't think there's any moral justification for the
hassles they then face if they then need to do something like go one
zone extra on LU one day. Â*It's not like they pay any less for it.

I agree that it is somewhat absurd that the station from which you
start your journey cannot sell you a ticket in the format that you
want it on. However, if one is making a regular commute then things
are predictable and thus one can work around this without an immense
amount of effort - one could suggest that if one wants Oyster then the
station ticket office has just been moved to the corner shop that's
just up the road from the station.

I know people who don't have a regular commute- instead it varies
widely (wildly in fact) all over London - but they manage to buy the
season Travelcards they need OK with a trip to the newsagent. A bit of
a faff, but ultimately worth it for the hassle that one subsequently
avoid when they travel outside their Travelcard's zones on the
increasing number of PAYG routes. I just feel you're making mountains
out of a molehills - big, annoying molehills - but they are not an
insurmountable issue.

My objection is that they are totally unnecessary. It's a dispute
between NR and TfL which TfL takes out on NR customers.

Refusing to sell (non-punitive) extension tickets to holders of the
many thousands of NR travelcards knocking about is TfL making a
mountain out of a molehill. As a "service" they could and definitely
should do it. It wouldn't require any new systems.

Of course when the TOCs eventually get real and agree to accept PAYG
across all their route in London then their ticket offices, and
hopefully at least some of their ticket machines, will also manage to
sell both PAYG top-ups and Travelcards on Oyster. It will happen.
Eventually. Then I'll be able to buy my season Travelcards from the
helpful staff at my local station.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken

----------------------------------------------------------------

Out of interest, what is there not to work? Aren't they basically sealed
units?

Do they get completely trashed in sarf lundin, or does the power go off,
or
..... something else?

Most often won't read the credit/debit cards. *But also non-specific
"out of order" bits of paper stuck on the screen, which may be the
same, but why try ...

-----------------------------------------------

Oh you mean the 'ticket' machine. *I though you were talking about the
validator.

Out of interest, I think I've only ever come across one or possibly
two Oyster validators (aka Oyster readers) that weren't working. There
was one at Addiscombe on Tramlink that I saw covered in silver spray
on paint, though I think it was still working underneath that.

Also, at most ungated stations where one needs to use a standalone
Oyster validator there is more than just the one validator.

Of course basically one cannot use Oyster PAYG for rail travel in
south London.

Funly enough, I've seen a not-working Oyster validator today.

It's at West Ham, and it's got "OUT OF ORDER" written on it in black
marker. It looks like it's been that way for some time, so I wonder
if it's not so much out of order as switched off due to lack of
purpose.

As the poster of the original message in this thread, I'm not only pleased
at the amount of comment it has produced, grateful for all the information
and opinions provided by the various contributors, but also appalled at
the confusion and uncertainty this system produces even among the
knowledgeable people who post here. As I no longer live in the GLA area, I
don't keep up to date with all the arguments and changes, but I gather the
system is to be introduced to all NR stations in that area in January
2009. Thank goodness for that. All this confusion merely confirms my
belief this should never have been introduced for part of London's
transport, but delayed until all modes were included. This is only my
humble opinion - no doubt plenty will agree and plenty will disagree.

Finally may I ask one more question. My PAYG card now has only £3.80 left
following what I believe to be my earlier double charging. Will the
barrier open when I next touch in at Zone 1 station as I'd expect it to
and if so what will happen if I touch out at a Zone 6 station?

John

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:30:13 -0000, Lew 1 wrote:

Actually, while I am here, can someone please explain to me why my Oyster
card regularly opens gates, but then flashes up "Seek Assistance" while I am
crossing through? If there is a problem, why does it open the gates? What
does it all mean?!

It happens if you hold your Oyster near the reader a fraction longer
than necessary. The reader reads the card, completes the transaction,
and opens the gates. It then reads the card a second time, and this
time rejects it as a double pass-in (or out), displaying the "seek
assistance" message.

Unless you are using a tram at Wimbledon, where it all goes out the
window.
I've had no problems at Wimbledon. What problems have you had?

No, I have not had any problems - I was just, perhaps a little flippantly,
pointing out that whilst there is a very simple rule for Tram use, it turns
into something that requires its own FAQ on the TfL website as soon as you
get to Wimbledon.

If you could share the details of the specific problems you've had
then we could try and work out what's going on, i.e. what were your
start and end points, what route did you take, did you have a
Travelcard on your Oyster, what time of day was this and what makes
you think you were overcharged - did you get the £4 max cash fare
'penalty' and if so was this applied once or twice?

What frequently happens is that my journeys seem to "start" from a station I
visited earlier in the day, but not the actual start of this particular
journey.

For example: I travel West Hampstead NLL to Richmond and exit.
Then Richmond to West Hampstead to change to Jubilee to Baker Street (or
anywhere really).
Then Baker Street back to West Hampstead to catch Thameslink northbound (not
on Oyster).

However, the journey history often looks like this:
West Hampstead NLL -- Richmond.
Richmond -- West Hampstead NLL
Richmond -- Baker Street
Baker Street -- West Hampstead

It seems to "miss" me entering West Hampstead jubilee line, and presumes
that I went back to Richmond to start a second journey somehow. This happens
incredibly regularly, but not always at the same stations - and on one
occasion I had *three* journeys starting from Richmond in a row. I don't
even understand how the system could, knowing that I have just travelled
from Richmond to WH, think that I have managed to hot foot it back to
Richmond in the time it takes to cross a road to start a new journey.

The gates always let me through at WH LUL, so I am not totally convinced by
your statement that as long as the gates open, all is well. Thankfully, the
majority of the time, my Oyster has capped (with YPR) for the day, so whilst
I am not overcharged as such - if anyone were doing these journeys without
the discount capping they could conceivably get charged for two journeys
when they only actually made one. Any advice welcome!

From observation this seems to happen quite a lot, and has been
commented on here before. It's nothing to worry about - if the gates
have opened then you're fine. One likely explanation is that the
Oyster reader on the gate is reading your Oyster card for a second
time and then obviously rejecting it, because it has already just read
it, validated it and opened the gate for you

OK, that may be right. I had wondered if it was connected to the fact that
my Journey History was all over the place, thinking that I was in Richmond
etc. and was trying to tell me, but was opening the gates anyway. I suppose
I ought to look at the gate code next time.