Oyster PAYG query
 

I only use my PAYG card very infrequently, but think I've been
overcharged. I've registered the card online and checked all the details
of journeys I made on one day recently - and they are correct. The problem
from my point of view relates to a journey where I didn't touch in but did
touch out resulting in a further £4 charge for that day. Not living within
the Tfl area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e.
charge more than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to
say the least, as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay.
Is this fact widely known?

However how this happened is what I consider unavoidable - I had a valid
National Rail ticket to Ealing Broadway where I changed to the Central
Line and intended to use my Oystercard. I was already inside the ticket
barrier/touch in button, merely changing platforms and saw no Oyster
readers at the entrance to the Central line platforms. If I failed to spot
them, fair enough, (can anyone confirm this), but surely I'm not expected
to pass through the barriers twice when all I wanted to do was change
trains. Can somebody please clarify this.

John

Oyster PAYG query
 

On 15 Feb, 15:35, "John" wrote:
Not living within
the Tfl area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e.
charge more than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to
say the least, as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay.
Is this fact widely known?

I think so. Not touching in and out is considered a potential fraud,
so the £4 charge is a sort-of penalty fare rather than part of the
normal charging regime.

If I failed to spot them, fair enough, (can anyone confirm this)

They're kind of behind you as you go through the arch into the Central
Line area.

but surely I'm not expected
to pass through the barriers twice when all I wanted to do was change
trains. Can somebody please clarify this.

They've specially provided freestanding readers for people like you at
just about every NR/tube interchange. You're meant to make sure you
use them (even if it means hunting for them) every time you want to
pay for a journey with PAYG.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Oyster PAYG query
 

"John" wrote in message
...
I only use my PAYG card very infrequently, but think I've been overcharged.
I've registered the card online and checked all the details of journeys I
made on one day recently - and they are correct. The problem from my point
of view relates to a journey where I didn't touch in but did touch out
resulting in a further £4 charge for that day. Not living within the Tfl
area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e. charge more
than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to say the least,
as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay. Is this fact
widely known?


Its on page 3 of the fares guide - you did pick a copy up?

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-08-01-02.pdf

"Failure to touch in and out correctly will result
in you paying a maximum cash fare. This will
not count towards your daily price cap"

I guess TfL would argue that the regular warnings about touching in and out
are enough though, and the cap is the max you can pay if you use the system
properly.

The 'max cash fare' wasn't part of the system originally, but PAYG users
quickly discovered the benefits of only touching in at one end of a journey,
so that loophole got closed pretty quickly...

Paul S

Oyster PAYG query
 

On 15 Feb, 15:43, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 15 Feb, 15:35, "John" wrote:

Not living within
the TfL area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e.
charge more than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to
say the least, as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay.
Is this fact widely known?

I think so. Not touching in and out is considered a potential fraud,
so the £4 charge is a sort-of penalty fare rather than part of the
normal charging regime.


TfL call it the "maximum cash fare", and it is currently set at £4
which is indeed the maximum you will pay for a single Underground fare
if you buy a cash fare (i.e. buy a paper single LU ticket).

Note that this rises to £5 if one passes through the gates at some
National Rail stations on routes where Oyster PAYG is valid (e.g.
Liverpool Street or Euston) and one fails to touch-out at the end of
the journey or have already failed to touch-in at the start of the
journey.

The logic is simple - the system needs to know where you began and
ended your journey so it can charge you accordingly. If it doesn't
know this, it cannot charge you accordingly, so you get hit with the
maximum fare. As TfL say (on posters, in leaflets and during regular
PA announcements) "always remember to touch-in and touch-out" (though
note that when using buses and trams you only need to touch in) - and
yes, this is a widely known fact, at least within London.


If I failed to spot them, fair enough, (can anyone confirm this)

They're kind of behind you as you go through the arch into the Central
Line area.

I can also confirm this.


but surely I'm not expected
to pass through the barriers twice when all I wanted to do was change
trains. Can somebody please clarify this.

They've specially provided freestanding readers for people like you at
just about every NR/tube interchange. You're meant to make sure you
use them (even if it means hunting for them) every time you want to
pay for a journey with PAYG.

U


Just a quick message to back up what Mr Thant has said. What I go into
below really is an edge case - I cannot think of any other instances
where standalone Oyster readers are not provided for passengers
interchanging between a paper ticket route and an Oyster PAYG route.

~ ~ ~

The only place I have come across where there are no standalone Oyster
readers within the gated area is at Blackfriars (and by extension at
City Thameslink - see below). Oyster PAYG is valid on the central
section of FCC Thameslink between Elephant & Castle/London Bridge and
West Hampstead (and so is presumably also valid on Southeastern
between E&C and Blackfriars as well).

So if one was arriving at Blackfriars using a paper rail-only ticket
to "London Terminals" and wanted to continue further north then one
would have to exit the gates with the paper ticket and then re-enter
using Oyster PAYG. In fact "London Terminals" tickets are valid on
journeys from points south (only) as far as City Thameslink, so again
if one wanted to change over from a paper ticket to Oyster PAYG there
then they would have to exit the and then re-enter the gates.

Oyster PAYG query
 

On 15 Feb, 15:59, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"John" wrote in message

...

I only use my PAYG card very infrequently, but think I've been overcharged.
I've registered the card online and checked all the details of journeys I
made on one day recently - and they are correct. The problem from my point
of view relates to a journey where I didn't touch in but did touch out
resulting in a further £4 charge for that day. Not living within the Tfl
area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e. charge more
than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to say the least,
as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay. Is this fact
widely known?

Its on page 3 of the fares guide - you did pick a copy up?

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...nd-tickets-08-...

"Failure to touch in and out correctly will result
in you paying a maximum cash fare. This will
not count towards your daily price cap"

I guess TfL would argue that the regular warnings about touching in and out
are enough though, and the cap is the max you can pay if you use the system
properly.

The 'max cash fare' wasn't part of the system originally, but PAYG users
quickly discovered the benefits of only touching in at one end of a journey,
so that loophole got closed pretty quickly...

Paul S

I strongly suspect that implementing the 'max cash fare' was always
part of the Oyster gameplan, it just wasn't implemented at first so as
to give users unfamiliar with the whole idea of smartcard ticketing
some time to get used to the system.

Oyster PAYG query
 

On 15 Feb, 15:59, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"John" wrote in message

...

I only use my PAYG card very infrequently, but think I've been overcharged.
I've registered the card online and checked all the *details of journeys I
made on one day recently - and they are correct. The problem from my point
of view relates to a journey where I didn't touch in but did touch out
resulting in a further £4 charge for that day. Not living within the Tfl
area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e. charge more
than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to say the least,
as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay. Is this fact
widely known?

Its on page 3 of the fares guide - you did pick a copy up?

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...nd-tickets-08-...

"Failure to touch in and out correctly will result
in you paying a maximum cash fare. This will
not count towards your daily price cap"

I guess TfL would argue that the regular warnings about touching in and out
are enough though, and the cap is the max you can pay if you use the system
properly.

The 'max cash fare' wasn't part of the system originally, but PAYG users
quickly discovered the benefits of only touching in at one end of a journey,
so that loophole got closed pretty quickly...

Paul S

The "benefit" for me was that I paid the correct fare without having
to get off the train and touch in/out at the point where I crossed
into the area covered by my paper travelcard. Now I get ripped off if
I don't go through that ridiculous exercise.

Oyster PAYG query
 

On 15 Feb, 16:12, Mizter T wrote:
On 15 Feb, 15:43, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 15 Feb, 15:35, "John" wrote:

Not living within
the TfL area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e.
charge more than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to
say the least, as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay.
Is this fact widely known?

I think so. Not touching in and out is considered a potential fraud,
so the £4 charge is a sort-of penalty fare rather than part of the
normal charging regime.

I don't think the fraud argument makes sense, because every single
travelcard journey could involve the same fraud. I think it's a case
of the system charging people because it can. Even if everyone with a
zone 1 - 2 travelcard could be assumed to have nipped off to an
ungated zone 6 station, there is no practical way of charging them for
it.


TfL call it the "maximum cash fare", and it is currently set at £4
which is indeed the maximum you will pay for a single Underground fare
if you buy a cash fare (i.e. buy a paper single LU ticket).

Note that this rises to £5 if one passes through the gates at some
National Rail stations on routes where Oyster PAYG is valid (e.g.
Liverpool Street or Euston) and one fails to touch-out at the end of
the journey or have already failed to touch-in at the start of the
journey.

The logic is simple - the system needs to know where you began and
ended your journey so it can charge you accordingly. If it doesn't
know this, it cannot charge you accordingly, so you get hit with the
maximum fare. As TfL say (on posters, in leaflets and during regular
PA announcements) "always remember to touch-in and touch-out" (though
note that when using buses and trams you only need to touch in) - and
yes, this is a widely known fact, at least within London.



If I failed to spot *them, fair enough, (can anyone confirm this)

They're kind of behind you as you go through the arch into the Central
Line area.

I can also confirm this.



but surely I'm not expected
to pass through the barriers twice when all I wanted to do was change
trains. Can somebody please clarify this.

They've specially provided freestanding readers for people like you at
just about every NR/tube interchange. You're meant to make sure you
use them (even if it means hunting for them) every time you want to
pay for a journey with PAYG.

U

Just a quick message to back up what Mr Thant has said. What I go into
below really is an edge case - I cannot think of any other instances
where standalone Oyster readers are not provided for passengers
interchanging between a paper ticket route and an Oyster PAYG route.


It's not a rare case at all. It's the case at every single
Underground station where someone with a paper travelcard for certain
zones needs to travel to another zone. You have to get off and go to
the exit or else get stung.

Why oh why oh why won't they just sell reasonably-priced extension
tickets to people who can show a paper ticket/travelcard for part of
the journey? The punishment cash fares for not using Oyster won't
teach them any kind of lesson apart from not to use the Underground.



~ ~ ~

The only place I have come across where there are no standalone Oyster
readers within the gated area is at Blackfriars (and by extension at
City Thameslink - see below). Oyster PAYG is valid on the central
section of FCC Thameslink between Elephant & Castle/London Bridge and
West Hampstead (and so is presumably also valid on Southeastern
between E&C and Blackfriars as well).

So if one was arriving at Blackfriars using a paper rail-only ticket
to "London Terminals" and wanted to continue further north then one
would have to exit the gates with the paper ticket and then re-enter
using Oyster PAYG. In fact "London Terminals" tickets are valid on
journeys from points south (only) as far as City Thameslink, so again
if one wanted to change over from a paper ticket to Oyster PAYG there
then they would have to exit the and then re-enter the gates.

Oyster PAYG query
 

On 15 Feb, 18:29, MIG wrote:

On 15 Feb, 15:59, "Paul Scott" wrote:

"John" wrote:

I only use my PAYG card very infrequently, but think I've been overcharged.
I've registered the card online and checked all the details of journeys I
made on one day recently - and they are correct. The problem from my point
of view relates to a journey where I didn't touch in but did touch out
resulting in a further £4 charge for that day. Not living within the Tfl
area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e. charge more
than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to say the least,
as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay. Is this fact
widely known?

Its on page 3 of the fares guide - you did pick a copy up?

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...nd-tickets-08-...

"Failure to touch in and out correctly will result
in you paying a maximum cash fare. This will
not count towards your daily price cap"

I guess TfL would argue that the regular warnings about touching in and out
are enough though, and the cap is the max you can pay if you use the system
properly.

The 'max cash fare' wasn't part of the system originally, but PAYG users
quickly discovered the benefits of only touching in at one end of a journey,
so that loophole got closed pretty quickly...

Paul S

The "benefit" for me was that I paid the correct fare without having
to get off the train and touch in/out at the point where I crossed
into the area covered by my paper travelcard. Now I get ripped off if
I don't go through that ridiculous exercise.


I have to say that if I regularly travelled outside the zones of my
Travelcard (on Oyster PAYG routes) I would just get my Travelcard on
Oyster.

I am well aware of the worries about surveillance that Oyster
potentially brings (and that you share) - however thus far there
haven't been any properly justified allegations (as opposed to
conspiracy theory talk) that travel data is being misused or widely
used for surveillance purposes by TPTB. However let's look at some
facts...

* "The usage history of each card is retained on an eight week rolling
basis".
* After eight weeks, "anonymised journey information is retained for
research purposes".
* Only "a limited number of authorised individuals within TfL can
access Oyster card data and no external organisations have direct
access to the data".
* Requests for such information are "assessed strictly in accordance
with the requirements of the Data Protection Act on a case by case
basis".
* Police requests for data are "submitted in accordance with guidance
from the Association of Chief Police Officers and are coordinated by
TfL's Information Access and Compliance Team."


The quotes are from TfL's responses to a letter from 'Coofer Cat' (who
actually appears to be a gent named Richard Bolton) - the questions he
had about Oyster were dealt with by TfL under the Freedom of
Information Act. You can read more on his website, the page concerning
all this is he
http://www.coofercat.com/wiki/OysterCardRFI

Note that the comments at the bottom are not his but those of readers.
Some contain unfounded allegations - in particular the notion that
"lots of people at EDS or Cubic Transportation Systems [...] have
access to the details" - read on for more on that.


I wish to make clear that I am certainly not one of these people who
sit back and say 'the authorities know best' or some such - however I
am pretty confident that Oyster travel data is well controlled, and
isn't leaking out here there and everywhere nor being used by the
police to monitor our every movement. TfL will be very keen to ensure
this remains the case, as they will wish to ensure that the public
retains confidence in the system.

If anyone has worries about their Oyster data then perhaps they might
wish to look closer to home first - e.g. a suspicious spouse, who
could physically take an Oyster card to a Tube ticket machine to see
the journey history (last 10 journeys at most).

Otherwise - and the following can only be done with a registered
Oyster card - they could gain access to the online Oyster account to
query the journey history there (though only PAYG journeys, not those
covered by Travelcards or Bus Passes), or get a print out of the
complete Journey History sent by post from TfL by calling the Oyster
helpline and giving them your details including your security answer.

Someone aware of these possibilities could of course take suitable
precautions.


All in all I really don't see Oyster as a spectacularly malevolent
tool of surveillance. Using an unregistered Oyster might quell some of
these concerns.

All that said, if I was heavily involved in the campaign against the
arms trade for example, I might think twice about using Oyster - but I
suspect that would merely be paranoia at work, unless something I was
planning (e.g. barricading a Saudi diplomat inside an arms fair) was
perceived as a genuine thread to the state/public order etc.

However I would be more inclined to focus my concern on the issues
surrounding how data might be handled by ATOC and the private train
and bus companies in the upcoming ITSO smartcard schemes (which
presumably will all work together - though there's no guarantee of
that). Will they all be as rigorous as TfL appear to be when it comes
to handling sensitive data, could they attempt to milk it for
marketing purposes, will each company have extensive access to a co-
ordinated national database if there is to be one etc etc?

Oyster PAYG query
 

The logic is simple - the system needs to know where you began and
ended your journey so it can charge you accordingly. If it doesn't
know this, it cannot charge you accordingly, so you get hit with the
maximum fare. As TfL say (on posters, in leaflets and during regular
PA announcements) "always remember to touch-in and touch-out" (though
note that when using buses and trams you only need to touch in)

Unless you are using a tram at Wimbledon, where it all goes out the window.

Everytime I have crossed from LU to Overground with Oyster, I have ended up
being stung - what is the advice here? Touch at the interchange station so
it knows you have been there, even though you are not exiting? I just get
onto an LO train and touch out at the eventual destination - and always end
up with "Seek Assistance" and all sorts of peculiar fares and journeys in my
history. I have tried both ways, and can't work out what I am doing wrong.
Neither, evidently, can LO staff.

Actually, while I am here, can someone please explain to me why my Oyster
card regularly opens gates, but then flashes up "Seek Assistance" while I am
crossing through? If there is a problem, why does it open the gates? What
does it all mean?!

Best WIshes,
LEWIS

Oyster PAYG query
 

In message of Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:30:13 in
uk.transport.london, Lew 1 writes

[snip]

Actually, while I am here, can someone please explain to me why my Oyster
card regularly opens gates, but then flashes up "Seek Assistance" while I am
crossing through? If there is a problem, why does it open the gates? What
does it all mean?!

I suspect it may be a code 94 as a result of sliding a card across the
reader rather than placing it.

I raised a similar matter in
http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...thread/thread/
37ceb57db7d39f6e/3db267321569c894?lnk=st&q=#3db267321569c894

I complained to TfL but got nothing coherent in response.


Best WIshes,
LEWIS



--
Walter Briscoe

Oyster PAYG query
 

MIG wrote:

On 15 Feb, 16:12, Mizter T wrote:

On 15 Feb, 15:43, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 15 Feb, 15:35, "John" wrote:

Not living within
the TfL area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e.
charge more than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to
say the least, as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay.
Is this fact widely known?

I think so. Not touching in and out is considered a potential fraud,
so the £4 charge is a sort-of penalty fare rather than part of the
normal charging regime.

I don't think the fraud argument makes sense, because every single
travelcard journey could involve the same fraud. I think it's a case
of the system charging people because it can. Even if everyone with a
zone 1 - 2 travelcard could be assumed to have nipped off to an
ungated zone 6 station, there is no practical way of charging them for
it.


We've been over this very recently, and as things stand there is no
easy way to implement the same regime for those who have Travelcards
loaded on their Oyster cards as exists for those who are solely using
Oyster PAYG, because most National Rail stations in London (i.e. those
on routes that don't accept PAG) have no validators that would allow
an Oyster card holder to touch-in/out at the start/end of their trip.

Even if they all did - which I hope they will, when Oyster PAYG
becomes available on all NR routes in London, one would still be left
with the issue of someone holding, for example, a zones 1-3 Travelcard
yet travelling with an extension ticket from boundary zone 3 to
Brighton.

I agree that ungated stations are a potential issue with regards to NR
adopting Oyster PAYG, but they are one that could be tackled to an
extent with a proactive, intelligent and targeted approach to revenue
protection.

Besides I think it was far better that TfL closed one loophole. As has
been suggested before, I think there is something to be said for
proposing the notion that, broadly speaking, holders of Travelcards
are more likely to comply with the rules. In addition, this would
provide an added incentive to get NR stations in London gated and
hence staffed - something I and many others would welcome, though Luko
will be along in a minute to tell you that comprehensive gating is a
harbinger of the apocalypse.

Plus of course one must bear in mind that all ticketing systems are
imperfect.


(big snip)


Just a quick message to back up what Mr Thant has said. What I go into
below really is an edge case - I cannot think of any other instances
where standalone Oyster readers are not provided for passengers
interchanging between a paper ticket route and an Oyster PAYG route.

(Mister T's 'Edge case' example of lack of stand-alone Oyster readers
at Blackfriars and City Thameslink snipped)


It's not a rare case at all. It's the case at every single
Underground station where someone with a paper travelcard for certain
zones needs to travel to another zone. You have to get off and go to
the exit or else get stung.


You have of course mentioned this before, and I would simply suggest
you stop swimming against the flow and just get your Travelcard issued
on Oyster! I understand from past posts that you reside and work
within the London zones, so this option is certainly open to you. In a
post downthread I run through the concerns over surveillance that
surround Oyster, and I conclude that they are somewhat overblown -
though I would urge you to read that rather than simply respond to
this comment.

Many of those who have an out-boundary Travelcard season for commuting
into London will have it with validity in zones 1-6, e.g. Brighton -
R1256. Those who hold less than this, for example a Southend Stations
- R2356 (zones 2-6) for commuting to Canary Wharf could instead get a
rail-only season to a point in the zones and then rely on a season
Travelcard on Oyster, though unfortunately giving a definitive decree
on whether the train needs to stop at the ticket change over point
makes my brain melt (which is a bit of a cop-out I admit). This Canary
Wharf commuter could then use their Oyster card to travel into central
London/zone 1 from Docklands when they needed to by combining their
Travelcard and PAYG on Oyster.



Why oh why oh why won't they just sell reasonably-priced extension
tickets to people who can show a paper ticket/travelcard for part of
the journey? The punishment cash fares for not using Oyster won't
teach them any kind of lesson apart from not to use the Underground.


The whole point of the pricey paper ticket fares is, as you well know,
to move people off paper tickets and onto Oyster. Offering "reasonably-
priced extension tickets" to those with paper Travelcards is hardly
compatible with that aim.

If you do wish to avoid Oyster then one way making Tube journeys
beyond your Travelcard's zones is to buy a zones 2-6 Day Travelcard -
this costs £4.80 off-peak (i.e. after 0930). This is obviously cheaper
than buying 2 x £3 single extension fares on paper tickets (the £3
fare would cover all Tube journeys except those beyond zone 6 on the
Met line).

I do however quite disagree with your notions about the "punishment
cash fares" - I think that charging the 'max cash fare' does indeed
strongly get across the message that one needs to touch-in and out for
each and every journey. It's a bit harsh but I'd suggest it is
effective. I've had it happen to me - I was indeed annoyed when I
realised it had happened, but since then I've always been careful to
touch-in and out. I've heard similar stories from others, and it
hasn't led them to be despondent about the Oyster system as a whole.

Oyster PAYG query
 

much snippage

The 'max cash fare' wasn't part of the system originally, but PAYG users
quickly discovered the benefits of only touching in at one end of a journey,
so that loophole got closed pretty quickly...

Paul S

The "benefit" for me was that I paid the correct fare without having
to get off the train and touch in/out at the point where I crossed
into the area covered by my paper travelcard. *Now I get ripped off if
I don't go through that ridiculous exercise.

I have to say that if I regularly travelled outside the zones of my
Travelcard (on Oyster PAYG routes) I would just get my Travelcard on
Oyster.

It's still not the easiest thing in the world if you are south of the
Thames. I noticed recently that a major station like Lewisham has
only just started offering Oyster in the last few weeks, despite being
on the DLR (apart from a single machine that was often out of order).
In the period referred to, Oyster was even less available than it is
now.

When the machine is out of order, one doesn't want to spend fifteen
minutes finding a shop and missing trains, one just goes to the
counter for a paper ticket. Oyster stops are not always on the way to
the station.

My main point was that the extent of not touching in/out, before the
punitive rates were brought in, is inferred to be proof of fraud,
which is a totally false assumption.

I never touched in/out at boundary stations, but I always paid the
correct fare. For example, I got on at Acton Town when I had a zone 1
-2 travelcard and didn't choose to jump out at Turnham Green. No
fraud was committed and the correct revenue was collected.

(The stuff about surveillance is interesting and worthy of a longer
read and separate thread, because I've referred to it in the past, but
it wasn't in my bonnet at this point.)

Oyster PAYG query
 

On Feb 15, 9:19*pm, Mizter T wrote:
MIG wrote:
On 15 Feb, 16:12, Mizter T wrote:

On 15 Feb, 15:43, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 15 Feb, 15:35, "John" wrote:

Not living within
the TfL area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e.
charge more than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to
say the least, as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay.
Is this fact widely known?

I think so. Not touching in and out is considered a potential fraud,
so the £4 charge is a sort-of penalty fare rather than part of the
normal charging regime.

I don't think the fraud argument makes sense, because every single
travelcard journey could involve the same fraud. *I think it's a case
of the system charging people because it can. *Even if everyone with a
zone 1 - 2 travelcard could be assumed to have nipped off to an
ungated zone 6 station, there is no practical way of charging them for
it.

We've been over this very recently, and as things stand there is no
easy way to implement the same regime for those who have Travelcards
loaded on their Oyster cards as exists for those who are solely using
Oyster PAYG, because most National Rail stations in London (i.e. those
on routes that don't accept PAG) have no validators that would allow
an Oyster card holder to touch-in/out at the start/end of their trip.

Even if they all did - which I hope they will, when Oyster PAYG
becomes available on all NR routes in London, one would still be left
with the issue of someone holding, for example, a zones 1-3 Travelcard
yet travelling with an extension ticket from boundary zone 3 to
Brighton.

I agree that ungated stations are a potential issue with regards to NR
adopting Oyster PAYG, but they are one that could be tackled to an
extent with a proactive, intelligent and targeted approach to revenue
protection.

Besides I think it was far better that TfL closed one loophole. As has
been suggested before, I think there is something to be said for
proposing the notion that, broadly speaking, holders of Travelcards
are more likely to comply with the rules. In addition, this would
provide an added incentive to get NR stations in London gated and
hence staffed - something I and many others would welcome, though Luko
will be along in a minute to tell you that comprehensive gating is a
harbinger of the apocalypse.

Plus of course one must bear in mind that all ticketing systems are
imperfect.







(big snip)

Just a quick message to back up what Mr Thant has said. What I go into
below really is an edge case - I cannot think of any other instances
where standalone Oyster readers are not provided for passengers
interchanging between a paper ticket route and an Oyster PAYG route.

(Mister T's 'Edge case' example of lack of stand-alone Oyster readers
at Blackfriars and City Thameslink snipped)

It's not a rare case at all. *It's the case at every single
Underground station where someone with a paper travelcard for certain
zones needs to travel to another zone. *You have to get off and go to
the exit or else get stung.

You have of course mentioned this before, and I would simply suggest
you stop swimming against the flow and just get your Travelcard issued
on Oyster! I understand from past posts that you reside and work
within the London zones, so this option is certainly open to you. In a
post downthread I run through the concerns over surveillance that
surround Oyster, and I conclude that they are somewhat overblown -
though I would urge you to read that rather than simply respond to
this comment.

Many of those who have an out-boundary Travelcard season for commuting
into London will have it with validity in zones 1-6, e.g. Brighton -
R1256. Those who hold less than this, for example a Southend Stations
- R2356 (zones 2-6) for commuting to Canary Wharf could instead get a
rail-only season to a point in the zones and then rely on a season
Travelcard on Oyster, though unfortunately giving a definitive decree
on whether the train needs to stop at the ticket change over point
makes my brain melt (which is a bit of a cop-out I admit). This Canary
Wharf commuter could then use their Oyster card to travel into central
London/zone 1 from Docklands when they needed to by combining their
Travelcard and PAYG on Oyster.



Why oh why oh why won't they just sell reasonably-priced extension
tickets to people who can show a paper ticket/travelcard for part of
the journey? *The punishment cash fares for not using Oyster won't
teach them any kind of lesson apart from not to use the Underground.

The whole point of the pricey paper ticket fares is, as you well know,
to move people off paper tickets and onto Oyster. Offering "reasonably-
priced extension tickets" to those with paper Travelcards is hardly
compatible with that aim.

If you do wish to avoid Oyster then one way making Tube journeys
beyond your Travelcard's zones is to buy a zones 2-6 Day Travelcard -
this costs £4.80 off-peak (i.e. after 0930). This is obviously cheaper
than buying 2 x £3 single extension fares on paper tickets (the £3
fare would cover all Tube journeys except those beyond zone 6 on the
Met line).

I do however quite disagree with your notions about the "punishment
cash fares" - I think that charging the 'max cash fare' does indeed
strongly get across the message that one needs to touch-in and out for
each and every journey. It's a bit harsh but I'd suggest it is
effective. I've had it happen to me - I was indeed annoyed when I
realised it had happened, but since then I've always been careful to
touch-in and out. I've heard similar stories from others, and it
hasn't led them to be despondent about the Oyster system as a whole

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken (or there
isn't one).

Oyster PAYG query
 

"MIG" wrote in message
...
On Feb 15, 9:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:
MIG wrote:

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken

----------------------------------------------------------------

Out of interest, what is there not to work? Aren't they basically sealed
units?

Do they get completely trashed in sarf lundin, or does the power go off, or
...... something else?

tim

Oyster PAYG query
 

On 15 Feb, 20:30, "Lew 1" wrote:
The logic is simple - the system needs to know where you began and
ended your journey so it can charge you accordingly. If it doesn't
know this, it cannot charge you accordingly, so you get hit with the
maximum fare. As TfL say (on posters, in leaflets and during regular
PA announcements) "always remember to touch-in and touch-out" (though
note that when using buses and trams you only need to touch in)

Unless you are using a tram at Wimbledon, where it all goes out the window..

I've had no problems at Wimbledon. What problems have you had?

Here is a page of official advice regarding Oyster PAYG at Wimbledon
from TfL's "oyster help" website:
htt
or via


Here's my rundown of what's what...

-Using Tramlink from Wimbledon-
(1) If you've entered Wimbledon station through the gates and are
going to use Tramlink, you must touch-in *again* on a standalone
Oyster reader on the Tramlink platform (platform 10) before you get on
the tram.

(2) If you are leaving Wimbledon via the gates after alighting
Tramlink you will be fine so long as you have touched-in your Oyster
card at the tram stop *before* you started your tram journey to
Wimbledon - *note* that even if you have a Bus Pass or Travelcard on
your Oyster card you still need to touch-in at the tramstop *before*
you commence your journey to Wimbledon.


-Using the LU District line from Wimbledon-
(3) If you've entered Wimbledon station through the gates and are
going to use LU, you need do nothing - however touching in on a
standalone Oyster reader next to the LU District line platforms
shouldn't do any harm.

(4) Likewise, when alighting the LU District line and leaving
Wimbledon station all one needs to do is exit via the gates (and hence
touch-out there) - though again if one also touches out on a
standalone Oyster readers by the LU District line platforms before
going through the gates it shouldn't do any harm.


-Changing from Tramlink to LU District line-
(5) When changing from Tramlink to LU District line, *don't* touch-out
on the Tramlink platform (it may not do any harm, but only if you
haven't already made a free transfer from one tram to another -
otherwise you'll get charged another tram fare), however you *must*
touch-in on a standalone Oyster reader next to the LU District line
platforms.

(6) Changing from LU District line to Tramlink - touch-out on a
standalone Oyster reader next to the LU District line platforms, then
touch-in on a standalone Oyster reader on the Tramlink platform
(platform 10) before you get on the tram.


When changing from National Rail to Tramlink, simply touch-in on a
standalone Oyster reader on the Tramlink platform (platform 10) before
you start your tram journey.

However I am not totally sure of what one should do if they are
changing from National Rail to the LU District line at Wimbledon and
paying for the LU journey with Oyster PAYG. The arrangement certainly
used to be that one could simply touch-in on a standalone Oyster
reader next to the LU District line platforms - however one phrase
from that 'oyster help' page stuck out at me, because it says "Do not
start a pay as you go journey without touching in at the gates at the
entrance to Wimbledon station."

This could indicate that the way things have configured has somehow
changed, however I think it is merely somewhat unclear advice because
otherwise it doesn't make a lot of sense - I strongly suspect that one
can still merely touch-in on one of the standalone Oyster readers next
to the LU District line platforms before one gets on the Underground.
As it happens I will probably be down that way soon and will endeavour
to make a small detour to confirm that this is still the case.

Also, in the above examples I say that when Underground journey
touching in or out twice (once via the gates, and again via a
standalone reader next to the District line platforms) shouldn't cause
problems. I don't think it should, but it's possible I have overlooked
something here. Again I will endeavour to look into that to confirm my
understanding of it.


Everytime I have crossed from LU to Overground with Oyster, I have ended up
being stung - what is the advice here? Touch at the interchange station so
it knows you have been there, even though you are not exiting? I just get
onto an LO train and touch out at the eventual destination - and always end
up with "Seek Assistance" and all sorts of peculiar fares and journeys in my
history. I have tried both ways, and can't work out what I am doing wrong.
Neither, evidently, can LO staff.


You should just touch-in at the beginning and touch-out at the end of
the journey, don't worry about touching in at interchange points
(though if you are doing an out-of-station interchange, e.g. between
Hackney Central and Hackney Downs, of course you'll need to touch-out,
walk up the street and then touch-in).

If you could share the details of the specific problems you've had
then we could try and work out what's going on, i.e. what were your
start and end points, what route did you take, did you have a
Travelcard on your Oyster, what time of day was this and what makes
you think you were overcharged - did you get the £4 max cash fare
'penalty' and if so was this applied once or twice?
(If you don't want to make your journey details public then please
feel free to email me, my address is as given).


Actually, while I am here, can someone please explain to me why my Oyster
card regularly opens gates, but then flashes up "Seek Assistance" while I am
crossing through? If there is a problem, why does it open the gates? What
does it all mean?!

Best WIshes,
LEWIS

From observation this seems to happen quite a lot, and has been
commented on here before. It's nothing to worry about - if the gates
have opened then you're fine. One likely explanation is that the
Oyster reader on the gate is reading your Oyster card for a second
time and then obviously rejecting it, because it has already just read
it, validated it and opened the gate for you - however this all takes
a split second. Perhaps this is caused by the fact that people tend to
move the Oyster card in a sweeping motion across the reader - though
when walking towards/through the gate this is something that's hard to
avoid doing. So, as I said don't worry about it - if the gate has
opened you're good to go - unless it's very busy and you've walked
through on somebody else's ticket, but you will notice this if you do.

Oyster PAYG query
 

Mizter T wrote:

On 15 Feb, 20:30, "Lew 1" wrote:

(snip)

Unless you are using a tram at Wimbledon, where it all goes out the window.

I've had no problems at Wimbledon. What problems have you had?

Here is a page of official advice regarding Oyster PAYG at Wimbledon
from TfL's "oyster help" website:
htt
or via



Argh, I forgot to add the link to the relevant 'oyster help' page
about Wimbledon before I posted, so here it is:

https://transportforlondon.custhelp....p?p_faqid=2678
or via http://tinyurl.com/yqdwvk

Oyster PAYG query
 

Mizter T wrote:
On 15 Feb, 20:30, "Lew 1" wrote:

Unless you are using a tram at Wimbledon, where it all goes out the
window.

I've had no problems at Wimbledon. What problems have you had?

However I am not totally sure of what one should do if they are
changing from National Rail to the LU District line at Wimbledon and
paying for the LU journey with Oyster PAYG. The arrangement certainly
used to be that one could simply touch-in on a standalone Oyster
reader next to the LU District line platforms - however one phrase
from that 'oyster help' page stuck out at me, because it says "Do not
start a pay as you go journey without touching in at the gates at the
entrance to Wimbledon station."

This could indicate that the way things have configured has somehow
changed, however I think it is merely somewhat unclear advice because
otherwise it doesn't make a lot of sense - I strongly suspect that one
can still merely touch-in on one of the standalone Oyster readers next
to the LU District line platforms before one gets on the Underground.
As it happens I will probably be down that way soon and will endeavour
to make a small detour to confirm that this is still the case.



I think you're right, I've used the District line 'platform validators' at
Wimbledon in both directions when changing from LU to NR, a couple of times
this year, seems to work just as you'd expect, same as many other NR/LU
combined stations where access is on the paid side of the gates.

Paul

Oyster PAYG query
 

On 15 Feb, 21:35, MIG wrote:

On Feb 15, 9:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:

MIG wrote:

Why oh why oh why won't they just sell reasonably-priced extension
tickets to people who can show a paper ticket/travelcard for part of
the journey? The punishment cash fares for not using Oyster won't
teach them any kind of lesson apart from not to use the Underground.

The whole point of the pricey paper ticket fares is, as you well know,
to move people off paper tickets and onto Oyster. Offering "reasonably-
priced extension tickets" to those with paper Travelcards is hardly
compatible with that aim.

If you do wish to avoid Oyster then one way making Tube journeys
beyond your Travelcard's zones is to buy a zones 2-6 Day Travelcard -
this costs £4.80 off-peak (i.e. after 0930). This is obviously cheaper
than buying 2 x £3 single extension fares on paper tickets (the £3
fare would cover all Tube journeys except those beyond zone 6 on the
Met line).

I do however quite disagree with your notions about the "punishment
cash fares" - I think that charging the 'max cash fare' does indeed
strongly get across the message that one needs to touch-in and out for
each and every journey. It's a bit harsh but I'd suggest it is
effective. I've had it happen to me - I was indeed annoyed when I
realised it had happened, but since then I've always been careful to
touch-in and out. I've heard similar stories from others, and it
hasn't led them to be despondent about the Oyster system as a whole

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken (or there
isn't one).


I'm not quite sure where this broken Oyster machine might be, as it
can't be at a south London railway station as they don't exist at
these stations, primarily because you can't use Oyster PAYG on rail
routes in south London.

Unless of course it is the one at Lewisham you're referring to - where
there is indeed a single machine, presumably for the primary benefit
of DLR passengers who wish to top up their Oyster PAYG, though of
course of significant secondary benefit to those who want season
Travelcards on Oyster. If that is the one then yes, I have indeed
noticed that it gets sick more than any others - perhaps simply
because, whilst under cover, it is effectively outdoors...

OK, well I have a number of solutions for someone in this boat.

First off is renewing one's season earlier than the day it is needed,
or the day before it is needed - and this can be done at all
touchscreen Tube ticket machines (like the one at Lewisham). I can't
remember what the timescale is for renewing a season Travelcard, or
indeed buying a new one, but you can do it something like two weeks in
advance, if not more - whilst I think the machines only offer start
dates within the next week, you can get more flexibility if you buy it
from a Tube ticket office (or possibly from a newsagent - see below).

Secondly is renewing one's season Travelcard at a newsagents that
deals with Oyster (a so called "Oyster Ticket Stop" - what used to be
called a pass agent). Loads of newsagents and convenience stores offer
this, and again you can do it in advance (not sure how in advance, but
I imagine it would be at least a week) - though whether they will take
a card payment for this is up to them, especially on a busy monday
morning!

Thirdly, a sophisticated method - buy it online or on the phone and
having it electronically 'sent' to an LU, DLR or London Overground
(LO) station of choice, so you can pick it up there - you do this
simply by touching-in or touching-out as appropriate. Again this can
be done in advance of the expiry of the old season Travelcard, and if
done online then you can set it up to send you a reminder email x
number of days before your current Travelcard expires.

This method would require you to travel on LU, DLR or LO for at least
part of your commute - for example, Orpington to Canary Wharf via
Lewisham would take you on the DLR between Lewisham and "the Wharf".
If you buy in advance using this method it will be available to be
'picked up' from your nominated station up to 5 days before its
commencement - and when you do successfully pick it up I think you
then get sent an email to confirm this.

Here is the 'oyster help' answer that deals with this:
https://transportforlondon.custhelp....php?p_faqid=71
or via http://tinyurl.com/2ezuvs


All the above methods require a bit of advance planning - though with
the third method you can benefit from a reminder email which is
helpful. I understand that not everyone is always that organised - I'm
certainly capable of fantastic/absurd feats of disorganisation -
however, these methods are are there if people want to make use of
them.

Oyster PAYG query
 

On 15 Feb, 22:46, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

On 15 Feb, 20:30, "Lew 1" wrote:

Unless you are using a tram at Wimbledon, where it all goes out the
window.

I've had no problems at Wimbledon. What problems have you had?
However I am not totally sure of what one should do if they are
changing from National Rail to the LU District line at Wimbledon and
paying for the LU journey with Oyster PAYG. The arrangement certainly
used to be that one could simply touch-in on a standalone Oyster
reader next to the LU District line platforms - however one phrase
from that 'oyster help' page stuck out at me, because it says "Do not
start a pay as you go journey without touching in at the gates at the
entrance to Wimbledon station."

This could indicate that the way things have configured has somehow
changed, however I think it is merely somewhat unclear advice because
otherwise it doesn't make a lot of sense - I strongly suspect that one
can still merely touch-in on one of the standalone Oyster readers next
to the LU District line platforms before one gets on the Underground.
As it happens I will probably be down that way soon and will endeavour
to make a small detour to confirm that this is still the case.

I think you're right, I've used the District line 'platform validators' at
Wimbledon in both directions when changing from LU to NR, a couple of times
this year, seems to work just as you'd expect, same as many other NR/LU
combined stations where access is on the paid side of the gates.

Paul


It's just that oddly worded FAQ answer on the 'oyster help' website
that threw me somewhat. However if it was configured any differently
it would be most odd, and I can't really think of how one would
configure it any differently (at least not in the way that is
suggested by that FAQ answer).

Oyster PAYG query
 

On Feb 15, 10:06*pm, "tim \(not at home\)"
wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message

...
On Feb 15, 9:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:

MIG wrote:

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken

----------------------------------------------------------------

Out of interest, what is there not to work? *Aren't they basically sealed
units?

Do they get completely trashed in sarf lundin, or does the power go off, or
..... something else?


Most often won't read the credit/debit cards. But also non-specific
"out of order" bits of paper stuck on the screen, which may be the
same, but why try ...

Oyster PAYG query
 

On Feb 15, 11:11*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 15 Feb, 21:35, MIG wrote:







On Feb 15, 9:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:

MIG wrote:

Why oh why oh why won't they just sell reasonably-priced extension
tickets to people who can show a paper ticket/travelcard for part of
the journey? *The punishment cash fares for not using Oyster won't
teach them any kind of lesson apart from not to use the Underground.

The whole point of the pricey paper ticket fares is, as you well know,
to move people off paper tickets and onto Oyster. Offering "reasonably-
priced extension tickets" to those with paper Travelcards is hardly
compatible with that aim.

If you do wish to avoid Oyster then one way making Tube journeys
beyond your Travelcard's zones is to buy a zones 2-6 Day Travelcard -
this costs £4.80 off-peak (i.e. after 0930). This is obviously cheaper
than buying 2 x £3 single extension fares on paper tickets (the £3
fare would cover all Tube journeys except those beyond zone 6 on the
Met line).

I do however quite disagree with your notions about the "punishment
cash fares" - I think that charging the 'max cash fare' does indeed
strongly get across the message that one needs to touch-in and out for
each and every journey. It's a bit harsh but I'd suggest it is
effective. I've had it happen to me - I was indeed annoyed when I
realised it had happened, but since then I've always been careful to
touch-in and out. I've heard similar stories from others, and it
hasn't led them to be despondent about the Oyster system as a whole

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken (or there
isn't one).

I'm not quite sure where this broken Oyster machine might be, as it
can't be at a south London railway station as they don't exist at
these stations, primarily because you can't use Oyster PAYG on rail
routes in south London.

Unless of course it is the one at Lewisham you're referring to - where
there is indeed a single machine, presumably for the primary benefit
of DLR passengers who wish to top up their Oyster PAYG, though of
course of significant secondary benefit to those who want season
Travelcards on Oyster. If that is the one then yes, I have indeed
noticed that it gets sick more than any others - perhaps simply
because, whilst under cover, it is effectively outdoors...


I have used that one at times. Also, having intended to use it, had
to get a paper travelcard (you can't really suggest leaving the
station, which has no adjacent shops, looking for an Oyster Stop,
rather than just going to the counter for a paper one).

In the last few weeks I was there and the counters had just started
dealing in Oyster. I haven't bought anything at Lewisham since then
though. On the day I saw notices informing people of it, the whole
lot was closed.


OK, well I have a number of solutions for someone in this boat.

The solutions involve assuming in advance that the machine won't work
(in this case). There's something not quite right about that.


First off is renewing one's season earlier than the day it is needed,
or the day before it is needed - and this can be done at all
touchscreen Tube ticket machines (like the one at Lewisham). I can't
remember what the timescale is for renewing a season Travelcard, or
indeed buying a new one, but you can do it something like two weeks in
advance, if not more - whilst I think the machines only offer start
dates within the next week, you can get more flexibility if you buy it
from a Tube ticket office (or possibly from a newsagent - see below).

Secondly is renewing one's season Travelcard at a newsagents that
deals with Oyster (a so called "Oyster Ticket Stop" - what used to be
called a pass agent). Loads of newsagents and convenience stores offer
this, and again you can do it in advance (not sure how in advance, but
I imagine it would be at least a week) - though whether they will take
a card payment for this is up to them, especially on a busy monday
morning!

Thirdly, a sophisticated method - buy it online or on the phone and
having it electronically 'sent' to an LU, DLR or London Overground
(LO) station of choice, so you can pick it up there - you do this
simply by touching-in or touching-out as appropriate. Again this can
be done in advance of the expiry of the old season Travelcard, and if
done online then you can set it up to send you a reminder email x
number of days before your current Travelcard expires.

This method would require you to travel on LU, DLR or LO for at least
part of your commute - for example, Orpington to Canary Wharf via
Lewisham would take you on the DLR between Lewisham and "the Wharf".
If you buy in advance using this method it will be available to be
'picked up' from your nominated station up to 5 days before its
commencement - and when you do successfully pick it up I think you
then get sent an email to confirm this.

Here is the 'oyster help' answer that deals with this:https://transportforlondon.custhelp....rtforlondon.cf...
or via http://tinyurl.com/2ezuvs

All the above methods require a bit of advance planning - though with
the third method you can benefit from a reminder email which is
helpful. I understand that not everyone is always that organised - I'm
certainly capable of fantastic/absurd feats of disorganisation -
however, these methods are are there if people want to make use of
them

I do understand that there are ways in which someone in South London
who knows what days they need a travelcard for in future could get it
put on their Oyster in advance.

I just don't see why going to a station from which you are starting a
journey, in order to get or renew a ticket for that journey, requires
any level of disorganisation or should be treated with contempt.

There are reasons why people find themselves in possession of a paper
travelcard. I don't think there's any moral justification for the
hassles they then face if they then need to do something like go one
zone extra on LU one day. It's not like they pay any less for it.

Oyster PAYG query
 

Mizter T wrote:

I am well aware of the worries about surveillance that Oyster
potentially brings (and that you share) - however thus far there
haven't been any properly justified allegations (as opposed to
conspiracy theory talk) that travel data is being misused or widely
used for surveillance purposes by TPTB. However let's look at some
facts...

* "The usage history of each card is retained on an eight week rolling
basis".
* After eight weeks, "anonymised journey information is retained for
research purposes".
* Only "a limited number of authorised individuals within TfL can

Putting on my tin foil hat, is this limited to 10 or 200 people, or 3000
plus the cleaners?

access Oyster card data and no external organisations have direct
access to the data".

They have to phone up and ask for it to be e-mailed over each they want
it :-)




--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Oyster PAYG query
 

I had similar happen to me at City Thameslink - all the gates were open
and turned off, the oyster readers on the way 'in' were off, but on the
way 'out' were on. Seeing a large poster on the wall saying "oyster
users must always touch in and touch out", there were no staff in the
station, I touched my card on the working reader, and was 'fined' £5 for
my trouble! (My logic for touching 'out' on the way 'in' being I assumed
that when the gates were turned off, the 'out' readers were redefined as
'through', otherwise why weren't they turned off as well, or the 'in'
left on)

However, a phone call to the oyster helpline got me a refund. The
downside being like topup, one has to physically touch in, and like you I
don't live in London so I had to make another call a few days before my
next visit.

Anyway, give them a call on 0845 330 9876 (0800-2000) and I'm sure
they'll be sympathetic.

Alan

In article ,
(John) wrote:

*Subject:* Oyster PAYG query
*From:* "John"
*Date:* Fri, 15 Feb 2008 15:35:50 -0000

I only use my PAYG card very infrequently, but think I've been
overcharged. I've registered the card online and checked all the
details of journeys I made on one day recently - and they are
correct. The problem from my point of view relates to a journey
where I didn't touch in but did touch out resulting in a further £4
charge for that day. .......

Oyster PAYG query
 

On 16 Feb, 08:29, Arthur Figgis wrote:
Mizter T wrote:
I am well aware of the worries about surveillance that Oyster
potentially brings (and that you share) - however thus far there
haven't been any properly justified allegations (as opposed to
conspiracy theory talk) that travel data is being misused or widely
used for surveillance purposes by TPTB. However let's look at some
facts...

* "The usage history of each card is retained on an eight week rolling
basis".
* After eight weeks, "anonymised journey information is retained for
research purposes".
* Only "a limited number of authorised individuals within TfL can

Putting on my tin foil hat, is this limited to 10 or 200 people, or 3000
plus the cleaners?


I have no idea but would be interested to know. I presume that the
information must be available to those who work on the Oyster
helpdesk, otherwise they can hardly do their job can they! I would
also presume that it's basically not available to those who do not
administer the day-to-day workings of the Oyster system, so for
example Peter Hendy and Tim O'Toole can't sit at their desk looking up
people with stupid names in the database. I would also strongly expect
that when any particular record is accessed, the details of the
operator/agent who accessed them are logged, as is standard procedure
for such systems. I would also hope that there are a number of other
checks and balances in place.

Incidentally I understand that the Oyster helpdesk is based within TfL
in London, though I think things may have been slightly different in
the early days where it may have been based outside TfL but still
within London - bearing in mind that Oyster is part of the Prestige
contract for ticketing services that is provided by the Transys
consortium. What the status is of the staff that work directly on day-
to-day administration of the Oyster system I don't know, but whether
they be employees of TfL, Transys or of one of the Transys consortium
members I would still expect the same rigorous data handling
procedures to apply, and I'm pretty confident that TfL is very tight
in ensuring that everyone complies by the rules - after all, public
confidence in the system is at stake.

Also, I don't think that taking a concern in these issues should
really be limited to the tin foil hat brigade, not least since it has
recently become clear how spectacularly competently (not) some public
bodies handle our data, as evidenced by the HMRC lost discs scandal
and subsequent revelations of similar failings. I have to say that I
wasn't especially shocked by many of those stories, though I think
they all demonstrated a bang out of order lackadaisical approach to
data security - the HMRC scandal in particular appeared to show just
how many staff seem to have unfettered access to a database of
millions of people's personal details (and at least some had the
subsequent ability to burn these details to disc to take away).

In addition one needs to consider how large databases, in particular
those of telecoms companies, are leaky - not because information in
electronic form gets carried away en masse, nor because external
organisations have access to it (though I wouldn't be outrageously
surprised to hear that GCHQ could directly access such databases), but
because a few insiders - I'm thinking call centre agents particularly
- are crooked, and take money from private investigators (whether
working on behalf of suspicious spouses or partners, newspapers or
something more malevolent) to look up details on the system, such as
call records (and possibly make a print out of them). The larger the
number of staff who have such access the higher the risk, obviously,
so this needs to be considered as well. Telecoms companies partly deal
with this by having a segregated VIP database and staff (so I wonder
if Oyster has anything similar), but ensuring that rigorous procedures
and monitoring are in place can help deal with such a threat.



access Oyster card data and no external organisations have direct
access to the data".

They have to phone up and ask for it to be e-mailed over each they want
it :-)


Ho ho! Thankfully the procedures do appear to ensure that any external
organisation has to properly justify their need for the data, plus
needs to have the statutory authority to make such a request, and all
requests are then assessed by TfL on a case-by-case basis. I've a
feeling that these aren't just well meant words.

Oyster PAYG query
 

"MIG" wrote in message
...
On Feb 15, 10:06 pm, "tim \(not at home\)"
wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message

...
On Feb 15, 9:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:

MIG wrote:

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken

----------------------------------------------------------------

Out of interest, what is there not to work? Aren't they basically sealed
units?

Do they get completely trashed in sarf lundin, or does the power go off,
or
..... something else?


Most often won't read the credit/debit cards. But also non-specific
"out of order" bits of paper stuck on the screen, which may be the
same, but why try ...

-----------------------------------------------

Oh you mean the 'ticket' machine. I though you were talking about the
validator.

(I have assumed that you were wanting to 'collect' an online purchase of a
new season ticket by touching the validator. But as I have never had an
Oyster season I really have no idea if it works like this).

tim

Oyster PAYG query
 

On 16 Feb, 11:17, (Alan) wrote:
I had similar happen to me at City Thameslink - all the gates were open
and turned off, the oyster readers on the way 'in' were off, but on the
way 'out' were on. Seeing a large poster on the wall saying "oyster
users must always touch in and touch out", there were no staff in the
station, I touched my card on the working reader, and was 'fined' £5 for
my trouble! (My logic for touching 'out' on the way 'in' being I assumed
that when the gates were turned off, the 'out' readers were redefined as
'through', otherwise why weren't they turned off as well, or the 'in'
left on)


That certainly shouldn't have been the case - if gates are left open
for any reason then the Oyster readers on them should remain powered
on - though they will only active for the relevant direction (in or
out) as shown on the display on the gate.

I think that there were a few reports of similar troubles at LU
stations when the Oyster system first began, and perhaps staff hadn't
fully appreciated the necessity for the gates to remain active at all
times even when locked open. The gates at City Thameslink are pretty
new, so perhaps the staff there haven't got the hang of things. That's
not me making an excuse for them, just providing a possible
explanation.

If one does ever find oneself in this situation again then, if there
is one, use the standalone Oyster reader next to the manual gate (the
one that is literally like a garden gate) to touch-in or out as
appropriate - this reader will not make any presumption as to which
direction you are going - i.e. whether you are entering or leaving the
station. That said, the arrangement of there being a manual gate
doesn't always exist in newer installations, as it has been replaced
by a wide automatic gate suitable for those with luggage or in
wheelchairs etc.


However, a phone call to the oyster helpline got me a refund. The
downside being like topup, one has to physically touch in, and like you I
don't live in London so I had to make another call a few days before my
next visit.

Anyway, give them a call on 0845 330 9876 (0800-2000) and I'm sure
they'll be sympathetic.

Alan


They may well do. If you want to reach them using a geographic number
then you can call 020 7227 7886 (though I understand that soon 0845
numbers will be treated by telcos as being part of your free or
inclusive calling allowance to landlines).

Incidentally did you enquire about / did they offer the possibility of
obtaining a refund by cheque in the post?

Oyster PAYG query
 

On 16 Feb, 11:57, "tim \(not at home\)"
wrote:

"MIG" wrote:

On Feb 15, 10:06 pm, "tim \(not at home\)"
wrote:

"MIG" wrote:


I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken

----------------------------------------------------------------

Out of interest, what is there not to work? Aren't they basically sealed
units?

Do they get completely trashed in sarf lundin, or does the power go off,
or
..... something else?

Most often won't read the credit/debit cards. But also non-specific
"out of order" bits of paper stuck on the screen, which may be the
same, but why try ...

-----------------------------------------------

Oh you mean the 'ticket' machine. I though you were talking about the
validator.

Out of interest, I think I've only ever come across one or possibly
two Oyster validators (aka Oyster readers) that weren't working. There
was one at Addiscombe on Tramlink that I saw covered in silver spray
on paint, though I think it was still working underneath that.

Also, at most ungated stations where one needs to use a standalone
Oyster validator there is more than just the one validator.

Of course basically one cannot use Oyster PAYG for rail travel in
south London.


(I have assumed that you were wanting to 'collect' an online purchase of a
new season ticket by touching the validator. But as I have never had an
Oyster season I really have no idea if it works like this).

tim

For online purchases it does indeed work like this. Notionally one
needs to make a journey to do this, i.e. touch-in at one station and
touch-out at the other. One is certainly required to do that when
collecting a PAYG top-up or (setting up auto top-up), however given
that Travelcard users are not penalised for not touching-in/out I
expect that this doesn't matter - however I will endeavour to confirm
my expectation and report back here when I do.

Oyster PAYG query
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...
On 15 Feb, 22:46, "Paul Scott" wrote:

I think you're right, I've used the District line 'platform validators'
at
Wimbledon in both directions when changing from LU to NR, a couple of
times
this year, seems to work just as you'd expect, same as many other NR/LU
combined stations where access is on the paid side of the gates.


It's just that oddly worded FAQ answer on the 'oyster help' website
that threw me somewhat. However if it was configured any differently
it would be most odd, and I can't really think of how one would
configure it any differently (at least not in the way that is
suggested by that FAQ answer).

With respect to the special case of Wimbledon & Trams, large areas of South
London will presumably be similarly special cases for tram interchanges once
all the NR suburban services come into the PAYG system - how many more
tram/rail stations will there be?

I wonder if Jan 09 will see any changes to the tram zoning - its a bit of an
odd setup at the moment after all...

Paul S

Oyster PAYG query
 

On Feb 16, 12:42*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 16 Feb, 11:57, "tim \(not at home\)"
wrote:







"MIG" wrote:

On Feb 15, 10:06 pm, "tim \(not at home\)"
wrote:

"MIG" wrote:

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken

----------------------------------------------------------------

Out of interest, what is there not to work? Aren't they basically sealed
units?

Do they get completely trashed in sarf lundin, or does the power go off,
or
..... something else?

Most often won't read the credit/debit cards. *But also non-specific
"out of order" bits of paper stuck on the screen, which may be the
same, but why try ...

-----------------------------------------------

Oh you mean the 'ticket' machine. *I though you were talking about the
validator.

Out of interest, I think I've only ever come across one or possibly
two Oyster validators (aka Oyster readers) that weren't working. There
was one at Addiscombe on Tramlink that I saw covered in silver spray
on paint, though I think it was still working underneath that.

Also, at most ungated stations where one needs to use a standalone
Oyster validator there is more than just the one validator.

Of course basically one cannot use Oyster PAYG for rail travel in
south London.



(I have assumed that you were wanting to 'collect' an online purchase of a
new season ticket by touching the validator. *But as I have never had an
Oyster season I really have no idea if it works like this).

tim

For online purchases it does indeed work like this. Notionally one
needs to make a journey to do this, i.e. touch-in at one station and
touch-out at the other. One is certainly required to do that when
collecting a PAYG top-up or (setting up auto top-up), however given
that Travelcard users are not penalised for not touching-in/out I
expect that this doesn't matter - however I will endeavour to confirm
my expectation and report back here when I do.

Presumably (or perhaps I shouldn't presume) if you touch in at an NR
station that's got Oyster readers but no Oyster selling (like Putney I
think) with a zone 1 - 2 travelcard, and then, I dunno, do some kind
of trip via West Brompton and get off at Acton Town, it will record
you as having touched in at Putney (despite PAYG not being valid) and
charge the Oyster fare from the boundary at Turnham Green? Or would
it require a separate touch in at some intermediate point where your
travelcard was still valid?

Oyster PAYG query
 

MIG wrote:

much snippage

The 'max cash fare' wasn't part of the system originally, but PAYG users
quickly discovered the benefits of only touching in at one end of a journey,
so that loophole got closed pretty quickly...

Paul S

The "benefit" for me was that I paid the correct fare without having
to get off the train and touch in/out at the point where I crossed
into the area covered by my paper travelcard. �Now I get ripped off if
I don't go through that ridiculous exercise.

I have to say that if I regularly travelled outside the zones of my
Travelcard (on Oyster PAYG routes) I would just get my Travelcard on
Oyster.

It's still not the easiest thing in the world if you are south of the
Thames. I noticed recently that a major station like Lewisham has
only just started offering Oyster in the last few weeks, despite being
on the DLR (apart from a single machine that was often out of order).
In the period referred to, Oyster was even less available than it is
now.

When the machine is out of order, one doesn't want to spend fifteen
minutes finding a shop and missing trains, one just goes to the
counter for a paper ticket. Oyster stops are not always on the way to
the station.


I'll address these points in a reply to your post upthread in which
you raise similar points so as to avoid duplication (sorry, yesterday
evening I hadn't noticed this post hence I raised some similar points
in another branch of the thread).


My main point was that the extent of not touching in/out, before the
punitive rates were brought in, is inferred to be proof of fraud,
which is a totally false assumption.


I never intended to infer that this was a proof of fraud. However nor
do I think it is OK to make the counter-assumption - i.e. that all
those who failed to touch-in *and* touch-out were all acting in a
legitimate and honest manner.


I never touched in/out at boundary stations, but I always paid the
correct fare. For example, I got on at Acton Town when I had a zone 1
-2 travelcard and didn't choose to jump out at Turnham Green. No
fraud was committed and the correct revenue was collected.


(Incidentally I've looked up the appropriate fares for 2006 for the
examples I shall give, as it was in November 2006 that the 'max cash
fare' began to be applied - you can see the relevant fares PDF here -
http://snipurl.com/tfl_fares_1july_2006 )

In the particular example you gave there wouldn't have been a problem
- if you merely touched-in at Acton Town (zone 4) and then failed to
touch out, the fare charged would have been the minimum from that
station, so £1 (at any time) - and the zones 3&4 fare was also £1 (at
any time). So, as a holder of a Travelcard covering zones 1&2 you
certainly weren't leaving TfL out of pocket, and at no point in that
journey could you have been accused of travelling without a valid
ticket (though the Oyster T&Cs do clearly state that users must touch-
in and touch-out so technically you weren't complying with them).

But let's extend this logic a bit - if someone, holding a z1&2 paper
Travelcard, had started their journey from Heathrow using Oyster PAYG
then their card would have been debited £1 upfront on entry, which is
the minimum fare from a zone 6 station. However, during weekday
daytimes (7am-7pm) the zones 3-6 fare was £1.80 - thus if that person
had travelled into central London and then exited the network using
their paper z1&2 Travelcard they would not have paid the correct fare
and would have left TfL 80p out of pocket. Of course the problem for
TfL is that it would have been virtually impossible to catch someone
doing this, as if they were checked en-route outside z1&2 they could
simply present a validated Oyster and that would be fine - hence the
need to provide an incentive to users to touch-out, and a 'penalty'
for those who don't.

One last example, going back to Acton Town - literally. If someone did
the reverse of the Acton Town example you gave above, i.e. travelled
from central London to Acton Town whilst holding a z1&2 paper
Travelcard then that person would *undoubtedly* have been breaking the
rules, *even* if they intended to pay the extra using their Oyster
card. On the District line the z1&2 Travelcard would cover them up to
Turnham Green, but from Turnham Green to Acton Town they would have
been travelling without a valid ticket - and thus if ticket checked by
an RPI would have been liable to a Penalty Fare or prosecution. They
could even have been checked as they exited the ticket gates at Acton
Town - I saw RPIs who were very specifically only checking those who
had used Oysters to exit the gates from the SSL platforms at KXSP, and
then 'doing' those who hadn't touched-in before they began their
journey (perhaps on the extremities of the Met line).

(The same situation of course applies if they had travelling on a
westbound Piccadilly line train beyond Hammersmith - the last zone 2
station on the Pic - unless it was one of the few Pic line trains that
stopped at Turnham Green.)

The above provides a few ideas about the clues I'm sure the revenue
protection people would have been looking out for when trying to
identify people who were travelling fraudulently, before the max cash
fare 'penalty' was introduced.

Just to be absolutely clear, I wish to make it very plain that I am
not attempting to accuse you of any wrongdoing whatsoever, nor do I
want my comments to be taken as an inference to that effect. And I do
mean that.


(The stuff about surveillance is interesting and worthy of a longer
read and separate thread, because I've referred to it in the past, but
it wasn't in my bonnet at this point.)


I've expanded a bit on it elsewhere on this thread, but as you say it
is an interesting issue and one that shouldn't be dismissed out of
hand, but one that is worthy of a more level-headed approach than the
black helicopter conspiracy crowd provides.

Oyster PAYG query
 

MIG wrote:

On Feb 16, 12:42�pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 16 Feb, 11:57, "tim \(not at home\)"
wrote:

"MIG" wrote:

On Feb 15, 10:06 pm, "tim \(not at home\)"
wrote:

(snip)

(I have assumed that you were wanting to 'collect' an online purchase of a
new season ticket by touching the validator. But as I have never had an
Oyster season I really have no idea if it works like this).

tim

For online purchases it does indeed work like this. Notionally one
needs to make a journey to do this, i.e. touch-in at one station and
touch-out at the other. One is certainly required to do that when
collecting a PAYG top-up or (setting up auto top-up), however given
that Travelcard users are not penalised for not touching-in/out I
expect that this doesn't matter - however I will endeavour to confirm
my expectation and report back here when I do.

Presumably (or perhaps I shouldn't presume) if you touch in at an NR
station that's got Oyster readers but no Oyster selling (like Putney I
think) with a zone 1 - 2 travelcard, and then, I dunno, do some kind
of trip via West Brompton and get off at Acton Town, it will record
you as having touched in at Putney (despite PAYG not being valid) and
charge the Oyster fare from the boundary at Turnham Green? Or would
it require a separate touch in at some intermediate point where your
travelcard was still valid?


Well, first off I would probably choose a less roundabout route
starting from East Putney but never mind that! (One could of course be
accompanying friends etc for part of the route.)

AIUI your Oyster card would not get electronically 'marked' at Putney
whatsoever - the NR gates at locations where PAYG is *not* valid are
dumb, all they do is check for the presence of a valid Travelcard
(i.e. does it cover the zone the station is in, and is it in date?).

Beyond that, to be honest I'm not actually totally sure what happens
in such a situation. I certainly used to be sure in thinking that
passengers needed to touch-in before they joined a PAYG route - in
this case at Clapham Junction or West Brompton - so as to register a
start point with the system for the PAYG journey that they were about
to undertake, otherwise how would the Oyster system know where you had
started from. Also if you had your ticket checked when outside your
Travelcard's zones then surely there would be a presumption that you
had never touched-in.

I certainly read the advice to passengers from TfL as recommending
they do that - "Oyster Pay-as-you-go users much touch-in" the signs
say, and a passenger combining a Travelcard and PAYG in one journey is
thus a Pay-as-you-go user. However I can absolutely see the potential
for passenger confusion - they had already touched-in at Putney, they
may well think.

A recent post here however led me to think that *perhaps* the system
is configured differently, and that if a passenger exits the LU
network (e.g. through gates or touches-out elsewhere) without having
touched-in, but holds a valid Travelcard on their Oyster that
*doesn't* cover the zone their exit station is in, then the passenger
will be given the benefit of the doubt and merely charged the extra
for the zones beyond their Travelcard's validity.

However I'm not sure about whether this really is the case. If it was,
then it could mean that a passenger with a zones 2&3 Travelcard could
join an FCC Thameslink train at an ungated station in south London,
for example Herne Hill - or indeed a passenger with a zones 2-6
Travelcard could enter through the dumb (non-PAYG enabled) gates at
East Croydon - and they could then travel direct to Farringdon (PAYG
being valid on Thameslink north of Elephant & Castle), exit anywhere
in zone 1 and merely be charged the extra for zone 1. That might make
some sense in itself, but it would thus mean there could be passengers
travelling around without validated Oyster cards - which would be a
problem if they encountered an RPI (whether from FCC or LU).

*If* it is the case - and that is a big if - then I would suggest it
merely gives the passenger the benefit of the doubt rather than
legitimises their actions. I will certainly look into it this, though
when I do I'll make sure that I'm holding another unquestionably valid
ticket separately.

Oyster PAYG query
 

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

That certainly shouldn't have been the case - if gates are left open
for any reason then the Oyster readers on them should remain powered
on - though they will only active for the relevant direction (in or
out) as shown on the display on the gate

I think that there were a few reports of similar troubles at LU
stations when the Oyster system first began, and perhaps staff
hadn't fully appreciated the necessity for the gates to remain active
at all times even when locked open. The gates at City Thameslink are
pretty new, so perhaps the staff there haven't got the hang of things.
That's not me making an excuse for them, just providing a possible
explanation.

Thanks for the explanation.


... Incidentally did you enquire about / did they offer the possibility

of obtaining a refund by cheque in the post?

Nope, I didn't realise it would be an option, and although not regularly
in London I did know I would be making another visit, and obviously
wouldn't need to use the card in the meantime, so I accepted the offer of
a "topup" refund.

Alan

Oyster PAYG query
 

MIG wrote:

On Feb 15, 11:11�pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 15 Feb, 21:35, MIG wrote:

On Feb 15, 9:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:

MIG wrote:

Why oh why oh why won't they just sell reasonably-priced extension
tickets to people who can show a paper ticket/travelcard for part of
the journey? The punishment cash fares for not using Oyster won't
teach them any kind of lesson apart from not to use the Underground.

The whole point of the pricey paper ticket fares is, as you well know,
to move people off paper tickets and onto Oyster. Offering "reasonably-
priced extension tickets" to those with paper Travelcards is hardly
compatible with that aim.

If you do wish to avoid Oyster then one way making Tube journeys
beyond your Travelcard's zones is to buy a zones 2-6 Day Travelcard -
this costs £4.80 off-peak (i.e. after 0930). This is obviously cheaper
than buying 2 x £3 single extension fares on paper tickets (the £3
fare would cover all Tube journeys except those beyond zone 6 on the
Met line).

I do however quite disagree with your notions about the "punishment
cash fares" - I think that charging the 'max cash fare' does indeed
strongly get across the message that one needs to touch-in and out for
each and every journey. It's a bit harsh but I'd suggest it is
effective. I've had it happen to me - I was indeed annoyed when I
realised it had happened, but since then I've always been careful to
touch-in and out. I've heard similar stories from others, and it
hasn't led them to be despondent about the Oyster system as a whole

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken (or there
isn't one).

I'm not quite sure where this broken Oyster machine might be, as it
can't be at a south London railway station as they don't exist at
these stations, primarily because you can't use Oyster PAYG on rail
routes in south London.

Unless of course it is the one at Lewisham you're referring to - where
there is indeed a single machine, presumably for the primary benefit
of DLR passengers who wish to top up their Oyster PAYG, though of
course of significant secondary benefit to those who want season
Travelcards on Oyster. If that is the one then yes, I have indeed
noticed that it gets sick more than any others - perhaps simply
because, whilst under cover, it is effectively outdoors...


I have used that one at times. Also, having intended to use it, had
to get a paper travelcard (you can't really suggest leaving the
station, which has no adjacent shops, looking for an Oyster Stop,
rather than just going to the counter for a paper one).


I suppose I wouldn't rely on that one machine being working, and would
instead get it from an Oyster Ticket Stop elsewhere en route to the
station. I might also try and buy a Travelcard in advance (e.g. to
start 'tomorrow') using that machine, and if I failed to do so because
the machine was knackered then I would purchase it elsewhere (e.g. at
a Tube station at the other end of my journey).


In the last few weeks I was there and the counters had just started
dealing in Oyster. I haven't bought anything at Lewisham since then
though. On the day I saw notices informing people of it, the whole
lot was closed.


I hadn't noticed that the ticket office at Lewisham had started to
deal with Oyster, nor did I know they were planning to, but I'm very
glad to hear that it now does - I wonder if Greenwich station does too
now?

Perhaps Southeastern became aware of just how much custom they were
losing at Lewisham from people buying their Travelcards on Oyster from
the machine there, perhaps by comparing like for like sales over the
past few years, or maybe simply through observation of how busy the
machine was (in particular with people who then headed towards the
mainline platforms, as opposed to the DLR).



OK, well I have a number of solutions for someone in this boat.

The solutions involve assuming in advance that the machine won't work
(in this case). There's something not quite right about that.


Machines break, so as I said above I wouldn't rely on it working all
the time. However, if I bought my Travelcard in advance then I could
well make use of it - and if it didn't work then I would work around
that.


(three alternative methods of purchase snipped)

All the above methods require a bit of advance planning - though with
the third method you can benefit from a reminder email which is
helpful. I understand that not everyone is always that organised - I'm
certainly capable of fantastic/absurd feats of disorganisation -
however, these methods are are there if people want to make use of
them

I do understand that there are ways in which someone in South London
who knows what days they need a travelcard for in future could get it
put on their Oyster in advance.

I just don't see why going to a station from which you are starting a
journey, in order to get or renew a ticket for that journey, requires
any level of disorganisation or should be treated with contempt.

There are reasons why people find themselves in possession of a paper
travelcard. I don't think there's any moral justification for the
hassles they then face if they then need to do something like go one
zone extra on LU one day. It's not like they pay any less for it.



I agree that it is somewhat absurd that the station from which you
start your journey cannot sell you a ticket in the format that you
want it on. However, if one is making a regular commute then things
are predictable and thus one can work around this without an immense
amount of effort - one could suggest that if one wants Oyster then the
station ticket office has just been moved to the corner shop that's
just up the road from the station.

I know people who don't have a regular commute- instead it varies
widely (wildly in fact) all over London - but they manage to buy the
season Travelcards they need OK with a trip to the newsagent. A bit of
a faff, but ultimately worth it for the hassle that one subsequently
avoid when they travel outside their Travelcard's zones on the
increasing number of PAYG routes. I just feel you're making mountains
out of a molehills - big, annoying molehills - but they are not an
insurmountable issue.

Of course when the TOCs eventually get real and agree to accept PAYG
across all their route in London then their ticket offices, and
hopefully at least some of their ticket machines, will also manage to
sell both PAYG top-ups and Travelcards on Oyster. It will happen.
Eventually. Then I'll be able to buy my season Travelcards from the
helpful staff at my local station.

Oyster PAYG query
 

On Feb 16, 1:50*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message

...

On 15 Feb, 22:46, "Paul Scott" wrote:

I think you're right, I've used the District line 'platform validators'
at
Wimbledon in both directions when changing from LU to NR, a couple of
times
this year, seems to work just as you'd expect, same as many other NR/LU
combined stations where access is on the paid side of the gates.

It's just that oddly worded FAQ answer on the 'oyster help' website
that threw me somewhat. However if it was configured any differently
it would be most odd, and I can't really think of how one would
configure it any differently (at least not in the way that is
suggested by that FAQ answer).

With respect to the special case of Wimbledon & Trams, large areas of South
London will presumably be similarly special cases for tram interchanges once
all the NR suburban services come into the PAYG system - how many more
tram/rail stations will there be?


The only other 'internal' tram/rail stations will be Elmers End and
Mitcham Junction. At all the other interchanges (Beckenham Junction,
Birkbeck plus West and East Croydon), the tramlink stop is outside the
station. I'd be surprised if any of these stations become 'closed'
with full barriers after PAYG is introduced, mainly as Tramlink has
opened these stations up with new entrances. Even Mitcham Junction has
separation between the Tramlink platforms and the Network Rail ones.
Wimbledon had barriers before Tramlink arrived and so the introduction
of Oyster seems to have been a bit of a compromise.

I wonder if Jan 09 will see any changes to the tram zoning - its a bit of an
odd setup at the moment after all...


If you think of Tramlink as a bus, it all makes sense. The only
problem being that it is a bus that appears on the rail maps. The only
difference from buses is that travelcard seasons have to include one
of zones 3-6 to be valid.
The current arrangement is certainly less odd that the original setup
when Wimbledon needed extra validity.

Paul S

Oyster PAYG query
 

On 16 Feb, 16:46, Mizter T wrote:
A recent post here however led me to think that *perhaps* the system
is configured differently, and that if a passenger exits the LU
network (e.g. through gates or touches-out elsewhere) without having
touched-in, but holds a valid Travelcard on their Oyster that
*doesn't* cover the zone their exit station is in, then the passenger
will be given the benefit of the doubt and merely charged the extra
for the zones beyond their Travelcard's validity.

I'm fairly certain this is the case, though I'm surprised they allow
it.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Oyster PAYG query
 

On Feb 16, 5:21Â*pm, Mizter T wrote:
MIG wrote:
On Feb 15, 11:11�pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 15 Feb, 21:35, MIG wrote:

On Feb 15, 9:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:

MIG wrote:

Why oh why oh why won't they just sell reasonably-priced extension
tickets to people who can show a paper ticket/travelcard for part of
the journey? The punishment cash fares for not using Oyster won't
teach them any kind of lesson apart from not to use the Underground.

The whole point of the pricey paper ticket fares is, as you well know,
to move people off paper tickets and onto Oyster. Offering "reasonably-
priced extension tickets" to those with paper Travelcards is hardly
compatible with that aim.

If you do wish to avoid Oyster then one way making Tube journeys
beyond your Travelcard's zones is to buy a zones 2-6 Day Travelcard -
this costs £4.80 off-peak (i.e. after 0930). This is obviously cheaper
than buying 2 x £3 single extension fares on paper tickets (the £3
fare would cover all Tube journeys except those beyond zone 6 on the
Met line).

I do however quite disagree with your notions about the "punishment
cash fares" - I think that charging the 'max cash fare' does indeed
strongly get across the message that one needs to touch-in and out for
each and every journey. It's a bit harsh but I'd suggest it is
effective. I've had it happen to me - I was indeed annoyed when I
realised it had happened, but since then I've always been careful to
touch-in and out. I've heard similar stories from others, and it
hasn't led them to be despondent about the Oyster system as a whole

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken (or there
isn't one).

I'm not quite sure where this broken Oyster machine might be, as it
can't be at a south London railway station as they don't exist at
these stations, primarily because you can't use Oyster PAYG on rail
routes in south London.

Unless of course it is the one at Lewisham you're referring to - where
there is indeed a single machine, presumably for the primary benefit
of DLR passengers who wish to top up their Oyster PAYG, though of
course of significant secondary benefit to those who want season
Travelcards on Oyster. If that is the one then yes, I have indeed
noticed that it gets sick more than any others - perhaps simply
because, whilst under cover, it is effectively outdoors...

I have used that one at times. Â*Also, having intended to use it, had
to get a paper travelcard (you can't really suggest leaving the
station, which has no adjacent shops, looking for an Oyster Stop,
rather than just going to the counter for a paper one).

I suppose I wouldn't rely on that one machine being working, and would
instead get it from an Oyster Ticket Stop elsewhere en route to the
station. I might also try and buy a Travelcard in advance (e.g. to
start 'tomorrow') using that machine, and if I failed to do so because
the machine was knackered then I would purchase it elsewhere (e.g. at
a Tube station at the other end of my journey).

Believe me, if I passed an Oyster stop on the way to a station on a
day when I needed to to renew a travelcard, I would do so at that
first opportunity. Unfortunately, my routes to stations are usually
in opposite directions from such shops.

In the last few weeks I was there and the counters had just started
dealing in Oyster. Â*I haven't bought anything at Lewisham since then
though. Â*On the day I saw notices informing people of it, the whole
lot was closed.

I hadn't noticed that the ticket office at Lewisham had started to
deal with Oyster, nor did I know they were planning to, but I'm very
glad to hear that it now does - I wonder if Greenwich station does too
now?

Perhaps Southeastern became aware of just how much custom they were
losing at Lewisham from people buying their Travelcards on Oyster from
the machine there, perhaps by comparing like for like sales over the
past few years, or maybe simply through observation of how busy the
machine was (in particular with people who then headed towards the
mainline platforms, as opposed to the DLR).



OK, well I have a number of solutions for someone in this boat.

The solutions involve assuming in advance that the machine won't work
(in this case). Â*There's something not quite right about that.

Machines break, so as I said above I wouldn't rely on it working all
the time. However, if I bought my Travelcard in advance then I could
well make use of it - and if it didn't work then I would work around
that.







(three alternative methods of purchase snipped)

All the above methods require a bit of advance planning - though with
the third method you can benefit from a reminder email which is
helpful. I understand that not everyone is always that organised - I'm
certainly capable of fantastic/absurd feats of disorganisation -
however, these methods are are there if people want to make use of
them

I do understand that there are ways in which someone in South London
who knows what days they need a travelcard for in future could get it
put on their Oyster in advance.

I just don't see why going to a station from which you are starting a
journey, in order to get or renew a ticket for that journey, requires
any level of disorganisation or should be treated with contempt.

There are reasons why people find themselves in possession of a paper
travelcard. Â*I don't think there's any moral justification for the
hassles they then face if they then need to do something like go one
zone extra on LU one day. Â*It's not like they pay any less for it.

I agree that it is somewhat absurd that the station from which you
start your journey cannot sell you a ticket in the format that you
want it on. However, if one is making a regular commute then things
are predictable and thus one can work around this without an immense
amount of effort - one could suggest that if one wants Oyster then the
station ticket office has just been moved to the corner shop that's
just up the road from the station.

I know people who don't have a regular commute- instead it varies
widely (wildly in fact) all over London - but they manage to buy the
season Travelcards they need OK with a trip to the newsagent. A bit of
a faff, but ultimately worth it for the hassle that one subsequently
avoid when they travel outside their Travelcard's zones on the
increasing number of PAYG routes. I just feel you're making mountains
out of a molehills - big, annoying molehills - but they are not an
insurmountable issue.

My objection is that they are totally unnecessary. It's a dispute
between NR and TfL which TfL takes out on NR customers.

Refusing to sell (non-punitive) extension tickets to holders of the
many thousands of NR travelcards knocking about is TfL making a
mountain out of a molehill. As a "service" they could and definitely
should do it. It wouldn't require any new systems.

Of course when the TOCs eventually get real and agree to accept PAYG
across all their route in London then their ticket offices, and
hopefully at least some of their ticket machines, will also manage to
sell both PAYG top-ups and Travelcards on Oyster. It will happen.
Eventually. Then I'll be able to buy my season Travelcards from the
helpful staff at my local station.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Oyster PAYG query
 

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken

----------------------------------------------------------------

Out of interest, what is there not to work? Aren't they basically sealed
units?

Do they get completely trashed in sarf lundin, or does the power go off,
or
..... something else?

Most often won't read the credit/debit cards. *But also non-specific
"out of order" bits of paper stuck on the screen, which may be the
same, but why try ...

-----------------------------------------------

Oh you mean the 'ticket' machine. *I though you were talking about the
validator.

Out of interest, I think I've only ever come across one or possibly
two Oyster validators (aka Oyster readers) that weren't working. There
was one at Addiscombe on Tramlink that I saw covered in silver spray
on paint, though I think it was still working underneath that.

Also, at most ungated stations where one needs to use a standalone
Oyster validator there is more than just the one validator.

Of course basically one cannot use Oyster PAYG for rail travel in
south London.

Funly enough, I've seen a not-working Oyster validator today.

It's at West Ham, and it's got "OUT OF ORDER" written on it in black
marker. It looks like it's been that way for some time, so I wonder
if it's not so much out of order as switched off due to lack of
purpose.

Oyster PAYG query
 

As the poster of the original message in this thread, I'm not only pleased
at the amount of comment it has produced, grateful for all the information
and opinions provided by the various contributors, but also appalled at
the confusion and uncertainty this system produces even among the
knowledgeable people who post here. As I no longer live in the GLA area, I
don't keep up to date with all the arguments and changes, but I gather the
system is to be introduced to all NR stations in that area in January
2009. Thank goodness for that. All this confusion merely confirms my
belief this should never have been introduced for part of London's
transport, but delayed until all modes were included. This is only my
humble opinion - no doubt plenty will agree and plenty will disagree.

Finally may I ask one more question. My PAYG card now has only £3.80 left
following what I believe to be my earlier double charging. Will the
barrier open when I next touch in at Zone 1 station as I'd expect it to
and if so what will happen if I touch out at a Zone 6 station?

John

Oyster PAYG query
 

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:30:13 -0000, Lew 1 wrote:

Actually, while I am here, can someone please explain to me why my Oyster
card regularly opens gates, but then flashes up "Seek Assistance" while I am
crossing through? If there is a problem, why does it open the gates? What
does it all mean?!

It happens if you hold your Oyster near the reader a fraction longer
than necessary. The reader reads the card, completes the transaction,
and opens the gates. It then reads the card a second time, and this
time rejects it as a double pass-in (or out), displaying the "seek
assistance" message.

Oyster PAYG query
 

Unless you are using a tram at Wimbledon, where it all goes out the
window.
I've had no problems at Wimbledon. What problems have you had?

No, I have not had any problems - I was just, perhaps a little flippantly,
pointing out that whilst there is a very simple rule for Tram use, it turns
into something that requires its own FAQ on the TfL website as soon as you
get to Wimbledon.

If you could share the details of the specific problems you've had
then we could try and work out what's going on, i.e. what were your
start and end points, what route did you take, did you have a
Travelcard on your Oyster, what time of day was this and what makes
you think you were overcharged - did you get the £4 max cash fare
'penalty' and if so was this applied once or twice?

What frequently happens is that my journeys seem to "start" from a station I
visited earlier in the day, but not the actual start of this particular
journey.

For example: I travel West Hampstead NLL to Richmond and exit.
Then Richmond to West Hampstead to change to Jubilee to Baker Street (or
anywhere really).
Then Baker Street back to West Hampstead to catch Thameslink northbound (not
on Oyster).

However, the journey history often looks like this:
West Hampstead NLL -- Richmond.
Richmond -- West Hampstead NLL
Richmond -- Baker Street
Baker Street -- West Hampstead

It seems to "miss" me entering West Hampstead jubilee line, and presumes
that I went back to Richmond to start a second journey somehow. This happens
incredibly regularly, but not always at the same stations - and on one
occasion I had *three* journeys starting from Richmond in a row. I don't
even understand how the system could, knowing that I have just travelled
from Richmond to WH, think that I have managed to hot foot it back to
Richmond in the time it takes to cross a road to start a new journey.

The gates always let me through at WH LUL, so I am not totally convinced by
your statement that as long as the gates open, all is well. Thankfully, the
majority of the time, my Oyster has capped (with YPR) for the day, so whilst
I am not overcharged as such - if anyone were doing these journeys without
the discount capping they could conceivably get charged for two journeys
when they only actually made one. Any advice welcome!

From observation this seems to happen quite a lot, and has been
commented on here before. It's nothing to worry about - if the gates
have opened then you're fine. One likely explanation is that the
Oyster reader on the gate is reading your Oyster card for a second
time and then obviously rejecting it, because it has already just read
it, validated it and opened the gate for you

OK, that may be right. I had wondered if it was connected to the fact that
my Journey History was all over the place, thinking that I was in Richmond
etc. and was trying to tell me, but was opening the gates anyway. I suppose
I ought to look at the gate code next time.