Am Fri, 22 Feb 2008 18:47:17 UTC, schrieb Mizter T
auf uk.railway :


As you know, London and Continental Railways (LCR) is about to be
broken up into three parts - EUKL, HS1 and property interests.

Thanks a lot for the additional details.


Cheers,
L.W.

"Mizter T" wrote

Interesting stuff. I presume the trains that terminated at Kensington
Olympia ran down from the GWML, using the now gone West London curve
that linked the GWML and NLL? Curious readers might like to know that
the West London curve got swallowed up by the now disused Eurostar
North Pole depot - however one thing I am unclear of is whether there
was just a link from the NLL to the GWML heading west, or whether
there was ever also a link that headed east towards Paddington?

Yes - the spur from North Pole Junction to Old Oak Common East Junction
diverged to the right (travelling north on the WLL) using what is now the
exit from the E* depot, running under the WLL (using more or less what is
now used as the link between the two halves of the E* depot) to join the
GWML facing towards Bristol.

There were three routes from Paddington to the WLL. In 1906-07 there was a
through train from Paddington to Brighton which took the Hammersmith branch
at Westbourne Park and used the spur which used to exist from Latimer Road
to the WLL. This was used by the 'Middle Circle' service (Edgware Road H&C
or beyond to Earls Court or beyond) until 1940. There was a spur from West
London Yard (where the eastern part of the E* depot is) to the WLL, used in
1967 by the 1000 SX and 1403 SX Paddington to Kensington Parcels. However,
on Saturdays these trains took a different route, via Park Royal, the
Greenford spur, and Drayton Green, to reach the WLL via Old Oak Common East
and North Pole.

Also, I'm just pondering summer specials in the south east.
Southeastern run a morning special from Victoria to Ramsgate via
Catford, Bromley South and Margate (and presumably a few other places
along the way!), though there's no special return working. I can't
think of any others that still run.

You're out of date. Last Summer this train ran from Victoria to Ramsgate via
Lewisham, Eltham and Dartford. It only runs from late July to the end of
August; the rest of the year there's a Victoria to Ramsgate ecs working. The
return has to be back at Victoria for the evening peak, so is too early for
day truippers, who return on the ordinary trains. Most years there's also
been a Hastings train, but last Summer this couldn't run because of the
tunnel blockade at Tunbridge Wells. As in my previous post, in some years
these trains have come into passenger service at such stations as Elephant &
Castle or New Cross.

Peter

On Fri, 22 Feb 2008, John B wrote:

On 22 Feb, 14:36, Mizter T wrote:
There is also a slim possibility that Stratford could be a terminus for
incoming trains from the mainland.

A bit like Ryanair stopping at somewhere other than the obvious airport
IYSWIM...

Still a lot closer to town than 'London' Stansted, Luton, or Gatwick
airports - indeed closer to central London than Heathrow airport.

Is there really a possibility that Stratford could be a terminus
though - I can't see why there would be any need? Because DB, when
they introduce their new mythical London - Berlin express (if only
they would!), wouldn't want to pay the extra to go to St. Pancras?
(Though being serious I can't see that whoever owns the CTRL/HS1 by
then would really offer a discounted rate for stopping short!)

BR once ran a cut-price train up the ECML to Newcastle (or maybe
Edinburgh) that started from Finsbury Park.

Not sure whether the logic there was to avoid taking up paths into
King's Cross, or whether it was just about deterring 'normal' passengers
from taking that train instead of the full-price ones.

The paths reason sounds iffy; what use is freeing up a FP-KX path if the
corresponding path north of FP is occupied? All you could do is run a
KX-FP shuttle. Or KX-FP-Moorgate, i suppose! Ditto Stratford/StP.

Oh well, the railway moves in mysterious ways, its wonders to perform.

Either way, I'd've appreciated such a train when I was living in
Finsbury Park with a gf in Edinburgh, rather than sailing past my house
at 100mph and then getting home 45 minutes later...

How on earth did it take you 45 minutes to get from King's Cross back to
the Centre of the Universe? Was this before the Victoria line was built,
and when the Piccadilly was still clockwork? Oh - or were you getting back
after the last tube, and relying on the delights of the buses? Did you
consider investing in a bicycle? Or is Mizter on the right track when he
intimates that you might have had quite enough riding by that point?

tom

--
I think it would be a good idea -- Mohandas Gandhi, on Western
civilisation

On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 17:54:31 -0000 a message from "Peter Masson"
contained:

"Paul Scott" wrote

'The Highwayman' - left Newcastle very late pm, took the coastal route
through Sunderland, arrived FP about 0600. Travelled on it once in the
late
60s - don't think it ran for long though, it was a bit like a fully seated
sleeper...

IIRC the Highwayman was a day train - though the routeing was as you state.
It ran, again IIRC, in the early 1970s, and although it was something of a
dead-end in development of rail travel it proved the need for lower fares
for leisure travellers. Before then long distance tickets were basically
limited to Ordinary Singles and Returns, though there had for many years
been Mid-Week Holiday Returns (Summer only, out and back on Tuesdays,
Wednesdays and Thursdays, return within one omonth of outward journey, but
not in teh same week). After the Highwayman, Economy and 17-day Returns were
developed, which were the forerunners of Savers and Supersavers.
As for overnight cheap trains you may have been thinking of Nightriders
which ran, IIRC, in the 1980s between Scotland and London. At one stage the
Nightrider seated portion of the overnight Aberdeen to London train
wasmarketed by and liveried for Stagecoach, this time as the forerunner of
rail privatisation.

From Modern Railways May 1971 (p245)
quote
"Highwayman" rides on
The cheap-fare "Highwayman" between the North-East and London is to
continue operation until November 6. The ER reports that it has
carried some 150 000 passengers since its inauguration, but that
summer business has been much more successful than that of the winter.
Apparently the service is not regarded as a permanent summer feature,
since the official ER announcement says only that if this summer's
results repeat those of 1970, "it could well be" that the facilities
will be reintroduced in the summer of 1972. The train will continue to
operate between Newcastle and Finsbury Park with intermediate stops at
Sunderland, Seaham, Hartlepool, Stockton, Eaglescliffe, Stevenage and
Potters Bar, leaving Newcastle at 9.15 (14.35 SO) and Finsbury Park at
9.28 (15.00 SO), but the fare was increased to £2.25 from May 3.
/quote

A letter in the July 1971 magazine (p3) about the Highwayman makes
passing reference to "the Starlight scheme of some years ago" which
sounds like it might have been overnight. There is a poster from 1958
advertising the 'Starlight Special' between Edinburgh Glasgow and
London at
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10174317.
--
Chris Silke

Peter Masson wrote:

In 1906-07 there was a through train from Paddington to Brighton

Was that a quid pro quo for whatever GWR service ran to London Victoria,
giving rise to the "Great Western Railway" lettering on the front of
that station?

--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9683649.html
(53362 (Class 105) at Stratford Depot, 9 Jul 1981)

"Chris Tolley" wrote in message
...
Peter Masson wrote:

In 1906-07 there was a through train from Paddington to Brighton

Was that a quid pro quo for whatever GWR service ran to London Victoria,
giving rise to the "Great Western Railway" lettering on the front of
that station?

--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9683649.html
(53362 (Class 105) at Stratford Depot, 9 Jul 1981)
No; I believe that the GWR originally had some sort of running arrangements
to Victoria as a second London terminus, though whether these were ever
used, I wouldn't like to say.
Brian

"Chris Tolley" wrote in message
...
Peter Masson wrote:

In 1906-07 there was a through train from Paddington to Brighton

Was that a quid pro quo for whatever GWR service ran to London Victoria,
giving rise to the "Great Western Railway" lettering on the front of
that station?

No - the GWR was, with the LCDR, a joint lessee of the Chatham side of
Victoria. Trains, originally broad gauge ran from Southall. IIRC in the 1967
Paddington resignalling Old Oak Common box still called the West London Line
the 'Victoria branch'.

The 1906-07 through train was, I think, a response to congestion in crossing
London, especially by people who did not trust the new-fangled tubes. It was
about the same time that a Broad Street - Birmingham express was put on, and
in the era when a through train from the Kemnt Coast conveyed through
coaches to Manchester by two different routes, splitting at Herne Hill where
one portion ran via the WLL and WCML, and another portion ran via what we
now know as Thameslink, was taken back from Kentish Town into St Pancras,
and attached to a Midland express to Manchester.

Peter

John B wrote:
On 22 Feb, 16:28, Martin Edwards wrote:
I believe this is the train which was discussed on That's Life. BR wanted to
get rid of it, but they weren't allowed to, because too many people used it.
So they omitted it from all public timetables for a few years, but carried
on running it. When this caused usage to plummet, they were then allowed to
get rid of it. This would be approx 1980.
Yes that's it exactly. My parents saw the programme. Note that this
was just when Friedmanism was beginning to bite.

Was there any indication given of /why/ BR wanted to get rid of such a
popular service? Or was it just about too popular to shut, but nowhere
near popular enough to make any money...?

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

I think it was a bit too complicated. It involved a switch from
electric engine to diesel at Willesden.

--
Corporate society looks after everything. All it asks of anyone, all it
has ever asked of anyone, is that they do not interfere with management
decisions. -From “Rollerball”

"Martin Edwards" wrote

(Glasgow - Harwich through train)

I think it was a bit too complicated. It involved a switch from
electric engine to diesel at Willesden.

It was electric-hauled throughout. I think it was before the ECML
electrification, so the Edinburgh portion was diesel-hauled to Carstairs.

Peter

"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...

"Martin Edwards" wrote

(Glasgow - Harwich through train)

I think it was a bit too complicated. It involved a switch from
electric engine to diesel at Willesden.

It was electric-hauled throughout. I think it was before the ECML
electrification, so the Edinburgh portion was diesel-hauled to Carstairs.

When was the NLL AC electrification?
--
David Biddulph