Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

Hi,

Can someone confirm to me what would happen in the following situation
regarding the new price cap for an Oyster card with a loaded National
Rail railcard:

On one day a person makes four bus journeys and a tube journey between
zones 3 and 4, all of which begin after 9:30am.

Would that be charged at the bus price cap (£3) plus the tube fare (£1),
or would the zone 2-6 off peak (£2.80) Tube cap apply to cover
everything?

I would assume the cheaper fare would apply as it is theoretically a
Travelcard replacement. I am also assuming that the cap applies when
the discounted rate is met, rather than the normal cap level and the
price then discounted.

But even if the tube cap was not applied, what would then happen if
instead three such tube journeys were made? At £3 this would reach the
£2.80 cap so the bus journeys would then not be charged separately.

In either situation though, and the reason for my confusion, the fare
for the bus travel is reduced by adding a tube journey (or three).
Surely that cannot be right? Granted 20p is not that much to quibble
over for it not to be worth it in practice, but in theory it would mean
you can save money by adding gratuitous tube journeys to your day.

Thanks,

Michael.

Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

On 23 Feb, 14:25, Michael wrote:
In either situation though, and the reason for my confusion, the fare
for the bus travel is reduced by adding a tube journey (or three). *
Surely that cannot be right? *Granted 20p is not that much to quibble
over for it not to be worth it in practice, but in theory it would mean
you can save money by adding gratuitous tube journeys to your day.

I'd expect the bus cap effectively becomes £2.80, but I've no idea if
that's the case.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 14:25:10 +0000, Michael wrote:

Hi,

Can someone confirm to me what would happen in the following situation
regarding the new price cap for an Oyster card with a loaded National
Rail railcard:

On one day a person makes four bus journeys and a tube journey between
zones 3 and 4, all of which begin after 9:30am.

Would that be charged at the bus price cap (£3) plus the tube fare (£1),
or would the zone 2-6 off peak (£2.80) Tube cap apply to cover
everything?

I would assume the cheaper fare would apply as it is theoretically a
Travelcard replacement. I am also assuming that the cap applies when
the discounted rate is met, rather than the normal cap level and the
price then discounted.

But even if the tube cap was not applied, what would then happen if
instead three such tube journeys were made? At £3 this would reach the
£2.80 cap so the bus journeys would then not be charged separately.

In either situation though, and the reason for my confusion, the fare
for the bus travel is reduced by adding a tube journey (or three).
Surely that cannot be right? Granted 20p is not that much to quibble
over for it not to be worth it in practice, but in theory it would mean
you can save money by adding gratuitous tube journeys to your day.

Don't know for certain but I think the logic is like this.

If you undertook four bus journey they'd be £3.60 in total but capped to
£3. If you then undertook the tube journey as described then if you
also have the Railcard discount activated then the total cap should
reduce to £2.80. I agree it seems odd if you make the bus trips first
then the bus one day cap will be applied first until such time as
another mode is added that might trigger a different product /
geographic gap.

Your logic in the second example of 3 tube rides and then the bus is
correct from my understanding of how the "lowest cost" capping logic
works.

While I agree it might seem illogical the fact is that you get no
Railcard discount for just bus travel but as soon as you include tube or
rail then a lower cap may be activated (if off peak and outside zone 1).

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

On 23 Feb, 18:03, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 14:25:10 +0000, Michael wrote:
Hi,

Can someone confirm to me what would happen in the following situation
regarding the new price cap for an Oyster card with a loaded National
Rail railcard:

On one day a person makes four bus journeys and a tube journey between
zones 3 and 4, all of which begin after 9:30am.

Would that be charged at the bus price cap (£3) plus the tube fare (£1),
or would the zone 2-6 off peak (£2.80) Tube cap apply to cover
everything?

I would assume the cheaper fare would apply as it is theoretically a
Travelcard replacement. *I am also assuming that the cap applies when
the discounted rate is met, rather than the normal cap level and the
price then discounted.

But even if the tube cap was not applied, what would then happen if
instead three such tube journeys were made? *At £3 this would reach the
£2.80 cap so the bus journeys would then not be charged separately.

In either situation though, and the reason for my confusion, the fare
for the bus travel is reduced by adding a tube journey (or three). *
Surely that cannot be right? *Granted 20p is not that much to quibble
over for it not to be worth it in practice, but in theory it would mean
you can save money by adding gratuitous tube journeys to your day.

Don't know for certain but I think the logic is like this.

If you undertook four bus journey they'd be £3.60 in total but capped to
£3. *If you then undertook the tube journey as described then if you
also have the Railcard discount activated then the total cap should
reduce to £2.80. *I agree it seems odd if you make the bus trips first
then the bus one day cap will be applied first until such time as
another mode is added that might trigger a different product /
geographic gap.

Your logic in the second example of 3 tube rides and then the bus is
correct from my understanding of how the "lowest cost" capping logic
works.

While I agree it might seem illogical the fact is that you get no
Railcard discount for just bus travel but as soon as you include tube or
rail then a lower cap may be activated (if off peak and outside zone 1).

--
Paul C

Admits to working for London Underground!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Surely the cap applies at £3 and the lower cap does not impact (i.e.
the tube journey doesn't trigger a refund of 20p). So 4 buses and a
tube journey should be more expensive than a tube journey and 4 buses
in the instance mentioned.

In the same way, my understanding is that...

If you travel from Clapham Junction to Watford Junction via Euston off-
peak, you are charged £1.50 for Clapham Junction to Euston LUL gates,
then 50p to travel from Euston to Watford Junction to make up the £2
fare. I have made this journey.

If you travel from Watford Junction to Clapham Junction to Watford
Junction via Euston off-peak, you are charged £3.50 to travel from
Watford Junction to Euston, then nothing for the onward journey. As
far as I understand, you don't get refunded £1.50 for making the extra
journey and the overall cost is £3.50.

Is this right?


Jonathan

Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

On Feb 23, 9:33*pm, wrote:
On 23 Feb, 18:03, Paul Corfield wrote:





On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 14:25:10 +0000, Michael wrote:
Hi,

Can someone confirm to me what would happen in the following situation
regarding the new price cap for an Oyster card with a loaded National
Rail railcard:

On one day a person makes four bus journeys and a tube journey between
zones 3 and 4, all of which begin after 9:30am.

Would that be charged at the bus price cap (£3) plus the tube fare (£1),
or would the zone 2-6 off peak (£2.80) Tube cap apply to cover
everything?

I would assume the cheaper fare would apply as it is theoretically a
Travelcard replacement. *I am also assuming that the cap applies when
the discounted rate is met, rather than the normal cap level and the
price then discounted.

But even if the tube cap was not applied, what would then happen if
instead three such tube journeys were made? *At £3 this would reach the
£2.80 cap so the bus journeys would then not be charged separately.

In either situation though, and the reason for my confusion, the fare
for the bus travel is reduced by adding a tube journey (or three). *
Surely that cannot be right? *Granted 20p is not that much to quibble
over for it not to be worth it in practice, but in theory it would mean
you can save money by adding gratuitous tube journeys to your day.

Don't know for certain but I think the logic is like this.

If you undertook four bus journey they'd be £3.60 in total but capped to
£3. *If you then undertook the tube journey as described then if you
also have the Railcard discount activated then the total cap should
reduce to £2.80. *I agree it seems odd if you make the bus trips first
then the bus one day cap will be applied first until such time as
another mode is added that might trigger a different product /
geographic gap.

Your logic in the second example of 3 tube rides and then the bus is
correct from my understanding of how the "lowest cost" capping logic
works.

While I agree it might seem illogical the fact is that you get no
Railcard discount for just bus travel but as soon as you include tube or
rail then a lower cap may be activated (if off peak and outside zone 1).

--
Paul C

Admits to working for London Underground!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Surely the cap applies at £3 and the lower cap does not impact (i.e.
the tube journey doesn't trigger a refund of 20p). *So 4 buses and a
tube journey should be more expensive than a tube journey and 4 buses
in the instance mentioned.

Why wouldn't the latter still result in paying £3? There seems to be
an implication that once any cap is reached, there can be no more
charge, but that would imply that you could reach the zone 1 - 2 cap
and then travel for free to zone 6, which is not the case.

The issue must be that the railcard isn't valid on buses, so if you
use buses in addition, why shouldn't the higher cap apply?




In the same way, my understanding is that...

If you travel from Clapham Junction to Watford Junction via Euston off-
peak, you are charged £1.50 for Clapham Junction to Euston LUL gates,
then 50p to travel from Euston to Watford Junction to make up the £2
fare. *I have made this journey.

If you travel from Watford Junction to Clapham Junction to Watford
Junction via Euston off-peak, you are charged £3.50 to travel from
Watford Junction to Euston, then nothing for the onward journey. *As
far as I understand, you don't get refunded £1.50 for making the extra
journey and the overall cost is £3.50.

Is this right?

Jonathan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

In article ,
Paul Corfield wrote:

Don't know for certain but I think the logic is like this.

If you undertook four bus journey they'd be £3.60 in total but capped to
£3. If you then undertook the tube journey as described then if you
also have the Railcard discount activated then the total cap should
reduce to £2.80. I agree it seems odd if you make the bus trips first
then the bus one day cap will be applied first until such time as
another mode is added that might trigger a different product /
geographic gap.

That was my thinking. I am not sure if it is something that was never
noticed, or just considered an anomaly not worth worrying about. For
the sake of saving 20p I cannot see many people going to the time and
effort of adding unnecessary train journeys just to gain this extra
benefit. Let alone the limited circumstances in which it applies - no
zone 1, off peak only, with relevant railcard.

Thanks,

Michael.

Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

MIG wrote:
The issue must be that the railcard isn't valid on buses, so if you
use buses in addition, why shouldn't the higher cap apply?

That's an interesting idea - maybe the £2.80 cap only applies to tube
journeys, and if you use a bus you have to pay 20p more. And if you
just use buses, the £3 applies as normal. That'd certainly make more
sense than the cap jumping backwards.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

In article
,
MIG wrote:

Why wouldn't the latter still result in paying £3? There seems to be
an implication that once any cap is reached, there can be no more
charge, but that would imply that you could reach the zone 1 - 2 cap
and then travel for free to zone 6, which is not the case.

It is the opposite assumption, that despite one cap being reach (the bus
cap) that it can still be converted to come under another cap
(Tube/DLR/Overground) when there are competing caps that could be
applied, which whichever combination works out cheaper winning.

For example if you travel out of zone from the ones at which you have
already been capped then the system will compare the costs of existing
cap + single journey to the cap which covers all the zones you have now
travelled in, and the cheaper of the two being applied.

The issue here though is that the new railcard discount has created an
anomaly where the tube + bus cap is lower than the bus only cap.

The issue must be that the railcard isn't valid on buses, so if you
use buses in addition, why shouldn't the higher cap apply?

Because although you cannot use a railcard on buses directly, you can
use one to buy a travelcard at a reduced fare, which obviously includes
bus travel. As the Tube/DLR/Overground cap limit is the Oyster
alternative to a Travelcard it covers the same forms of transport. (Of
course excluding the non-Oyster NR services.)

Which is why I reckon if you only travel by bus the normal bus cap would
be applied, rather than the lower railcard discounted one. Because you
cannot get a railcard discount on an all-day bus ticket (the bus cap)
but you can on a travelcard (the tube cap).

Michael.

Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

On Feb 24, 10:40*am, Michael wrote:
In article
,

*MIG wrote:
Why wouldn't the latter still result in paying £3? *There seems to be
an implication that once any cap is reached, there can be no more
charge, but that would imply that you could reach the zone 1 - 2 cap
and then travel for free to zone 6, which is not the case.

It is the opposite assumption, that despite one cap being reach (the bus
cap) that it can still be converted to come under another cap
(Tube/DLR/Overground) when there are competing caps that could be
applied, which whichever combination works out cheaper winning.

For example if you travel out of zone from the ones at which you have *
already been capped then the system will compare the costs of existing
cap + single journey to the cap which covers all the zones you have now
travelled in, and the cheaper of the two being applied.

In such a case, there is never any need for the fare jumping
backwards, and the order of journeys doesn't make any difference.

I'm pretty sure that in any situation where a cap is reached or
subsequently broken, there is never any need for Oyster to do anything
other than add all or part of the single fare most recently undertaken
(I'd need to do a few calculations to prove that, but it just seems
right).



The issue here though is that the new railcard discount has created an
anomaly where the tube + bus cap is lower than the bus only cap.

I am not convinced of that, or do you know it to have happened?


The issue must be that the railcard isn't valid on buses, so if you
use buses in addition, why shouldn't the higher cap apply?

Because although you cannot use a railcard on buses directly, you can
use one to buy a travelcard at a reduced fare, which obviously includes
bus travel. *As the Tube/DLR/Overground cap limit is the Oyster
alternative to a Travelcard it covers the same forms of transport. *(Of
course excluding the non-Oyster NR services.)

That may be a bit wishful. Oyster PAYG capping is not equivalent to a
travelcard, it's just meant to be an alternative to it.

There's no more reason to expect a bus fare reduction on PAYG, just
because a reduction applies to a travelcard, than there is to expect
to use PAYG on NR, just because you can use NR with a travelcard.



Which is why I reckon if you only travel by bus the normal bus cap would
be applied, rather than the lower railcard discounted one. *Because you
cannot get a railcard discount on an all-day bus ticket (the bus cap)
but you can on a travelcard (the tube cap).

Michael.

Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 10:40:15 +0000, Michael wrote:

Which is why I reckon if you only travel by bus the normal bus cap would
be applied, rather than the lower railcard discounted one. Because you
cannot get a railcard discount on an all-day bus ticket (the bus cap)
but you can on a travelcard (the tube cap).

But you can buy the Travelcard with railcard discount, then use it
exclusively on buses, without going on the Tube...

Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

asdf wrote:
On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 10:40:15 +0000, Michael wrote:

Which is why I reckon if you only travel by bus the normal bus cap would
be applied, rather than the lower railcard discounted one. Because you
cannot get a railcard discount on an all-day bus ticket (the bus cap)
but you can on a travelcard (the tube cap).

But you can buy the Travelcard with railcard discount, then use it
exclusively on buses, without going on the Tube...

I don't know about some of the more esoteric other railcards, but with a
Young Persons' Railcard I believe the minimum fare for a Travelcard is
GBP 4.80 or something similar. So TfL's scheme offers savings otherwise
unavailable.
--
Michael Hoffman

Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

On Feb 24, 5:07*pm, asdf wrote:
On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 10:40:15 +0000, Michael wrote:
Which is why I reckon if you only travel by bus the normal bus cap would
be applied, rather than the lower railcard discounted one. *Because you
cannot get a railcard discount on an all-day bus ticket (the bus cap)
but you can on a travelcard (the tube cap).

But you can buy the Travelcard with railcard discount, then use it
exclusively on buses, without going on the Tube...

Does a zone 1 - 2 day travelcard with railcard discount cost less than
a day bus pass at £3.60? (That would be the cheapest day travelcard
one could get.)

Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

On Feb 24, 5:33*pm, Michael Hoffman wrote:
asdf wrote:
On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 10:40:15 +0000, Michael wrote:

Which is why I reckon if you only travel by bus the normal bus cap would
be applied, rather than the lower railcard discounted one. *Because you
cannot get a railcard discount on an all-day bus ticket (the bus cap)
but you can on a travelcard (the tube cap).

But you can buy the Travelcard with railcard discount, then use it
exclusively on buses, without going on the Tube...

I don't know about some of the more esoteric other railcards, but with a
Young Persons' Railcard I believe the minimum fare for a Travelcard is
GBP 4.80 or something similar. So TfL's scheme offers savings otherwise
unavailable.

For less of a service. The "tube cap" is NOT a travelcard.

Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

MIG wrote:
On Feb 24, 5:33 pm, Michael Hoffman wrote:
asdf wrote:
On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 10:40:15 +0000, Michael wrote:
Which is why I reckon if you only travel by bus the normal bus cap would
be applied, rather than the lower railcard discounted one. Because you
cannot get a railcard discount on an all-day bus ticket (the bus cap)
but you can on a travelcard (the tube cap).
But you can buy the Travelcard with railcard discount, then use it
exclusively on buses, without going on the Tube...
I don't know about some of the more esoteric other railcards, but with a
Young Persons' Railcard I believe the minimum fare for a Travelcard is
GBP 4.80 or something similar. So TfL's scheme offers savings otherwise
unavailable.

For less of a service. The "tube cap" is NOT a travelcard.

What I'm saying is that there is not a Travelcard available for GBP 3.30
to Y-P railcard users that would let you use the tube in zones 2-6.
--
Michael Hoffman

Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

On 24 Feb, 19:40, MIG wrote:
Does a zone 1 - 2 day travelcard with railcard discount cost less than
a day bus pass at £3.60? *(That would be the cheapest day travelcard
one could get.)

No such thing. Only the all zones ticket is available with a Railcard
discount.

(well it's more complicated than that - there's a minimum fare rule
that means discount fewer-zone tickets make no sense, but I'm not
absolutely certain you can't buy one anyway)

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

In article
,
MIG wrote:

The issue here though is that the new railcard discount has created an
anomaly where the tube + bus cap is lower than the bus only cap.

I am not convinced of that, or do you know it to have happened?

I was referring to the prices of the two caps, with the bus only one
being £3 while the bus + tube one is £2.80. I have no experience of
what actually happens in applying these which is why I am asking the
question.

I am assuming that a national railcard discount will not be applied to
bus only travel, otherwise the situation is very simple as the bus only
cap would never be reached. But even if it does work that way, it is
still an anomalous situation that the more inclusive cap is lower than
the more restricted one.

The only similar situation I can think of would be the New Deal price
capping, but that applies to all travel rather than just being a cap.

It would just seem strange to give a National Rail railcard discount on
an all-day bus ticket, which would effectively be the case if that cap
applied without any form of train travel. Presumably the way the
revenue is shared out is different for a travelcard and tube cap than it
is for bus only travel and so this way would see London Buses lose out
to the Underground and Oyster accepting rail companies.

Granted it could also work out that way if someone bought a travelcard
and only travelled on buses, but that sort of naivete must be pretty
uncommon.

That may be a bit wishful. Oyster PAYG capping is not equivalent to a
travelcard, it's just meant to be an alternative to it.

There's no more reason to expect a bus fare reduction on PAYG, just
because a reduction applies to a travelcard, than there is to expect
to use PAYG on NR, just because you can use NR with a travelcard.

I am not sure what you point is? Bus travel is expected to be included
under the normal cap because it is explicitly stated as such in the
fares guide.

The new cap with a loaded railcard is not given as a separate type of
fare but that "your off-peak Oyster daily price cap will be 34% lower
than the equivalent adult-rate cap" (to quote the web page).

Nowhere does it say that different rules apply if you take advantage of
this cap, or that bus travel is specifically not included. So I would
say there is far more reason to expect bus travel to be included than
not. If it was excluded then even if you only wanted to catch one bus
it would make it cheaper to buy a discounted travelcard.

If there is one thing that is clear from this thread though, it is that
nothing is clear!

Michael.

Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

On Feb 24, 8:12*pm, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 24 Feb, 19:40, MIG wrote:

Does a zone 1 - 2 day travelcard with railcard discount cost less than
a day bus pass at £3.60? *(That would be the cheapest day travelcard
one could get.)

No such thing. Only the all zones ticket is available with a Railcard
discount.

(well it's more complicated than that - there's a minimum fare rule
that means discount fewer-zone tickets make no sense, but I'm not
absolutely certain you can't buy one anyway)

So even less reason why anyone would buy one with or without a
discount and then only use buses (£3.60 for bus pass or £3 PAYG cap),
which is what I was getting at.

Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

On Feb 24, 8:00*pm, Michael Hoffman wrote:
MIG wrote:
On Feb 24, 5:33 pm, Michael Hoffman wrote:
asdf wrote:
On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 10:40:15 +0000, Michael wrote:
Which is why I reckon if you only travel by bus the normal bus cap would
be applied, rather than the lower railcard discounted one. *Because you
cannot get a railcard discount on an all-day bus ticket (the bus cap)
but you can on a travelcard (the tube cap).
But you can buy the Travelcard with railcard discount, then use it
exclusively on buses, without going on the Tube...
I don't know about some of the more esoteric other railcards, but with a
Young Persons' Railcard I believe the minimum fare for a Travelcard is
GBP 4.80 or something similar. So TfL's scheme offers savings otherwise
unavailable.

For less of a service. The "tube cap" is NOT a travelcard.

What I'm saying is that there is not a Travelcard available for GBP 3.30
to Y-P railcard users that would let you use the tube in zones 2-6.


There was a problem with terminology in a previous post. Oyster PAYG
offers savings on different products, rather than greater savings on
the same product, is what I meant.

Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

On Feb 24, 8:28*pm, Michael wrote:
In article
,

*MIG wrote:
The issue here though is that the new railcard discount has created an
anomaly where the tube + bus cap is lower than the bus only cap.

I am not convinced of that, or do you know it to have happened?

I was referring to the prices of the two caps, with the bus only one
being £3 while the bus + tube one is £2.80. *I have no experience of
what actually happens in applying these which is why I am asking the
question.

I am assuming that a national railcard discount will not be applied to
bus only travel, otherwise the situation is very simple as the bus only
cap would never be reached. *But even if it does work that way, it is
still an anomalous situation that the more inclusive cap is lower than
the more restricted one.

This is what I am questioning. Do you know it to be the case, ie have
you reached the cap of £2.80 on the Underground and then travelled on
a bus for free?


The only similar situation I can think of would be the New Deal price
capping, but that applies to all travel rather than just being a cap.

It would just seem strange to give a National Rail railcard discount on
an all-day bus ticket, which would effectively be the case if that cap
applied without any form of train travel. *Presumably the way the
revenue is shared out is different for a travelcard and tube cap than it
is for bus only travel and so this way would see London Buses lose out
to the Underground and Oyster accepting rail companies.

Granted it could also work out that way if someone bought a travelcard
and only travelled on buses, but that sort of naivete must be pretty
uncommon.

That may be a bit wishful. *Oyster PAYG capping is not equivalent to a
travelcard, it's just meant to be an alternative to it.

There's no more reason to expect a bus fare reduction on PAYG, just
because a reduction applies to a travelcard, than there is to expect
to use PAYG on NR, just because you can use NR with a travelcard.

I am not sure what you point is? *Bus travel is expected to be included
under the normal cap because it is explicitly stated as such in the
fares guide.

The new cap with a loaded railcard is not given as a separate type of
fare but that "your off-peak Oyster daily price cap will be 34% lower
than the equivalent adult-rate cap" (to quote the web page).

Nowhere does it say that different rules apply if you take advantage of
this cap, or that bus travel is specifically not included. *So I would
say there is far more reason to expect bus travel to be included than
not. *If it was excluded then even if you only wanted to catch one bus
it would make it cheaper to buy a discounted travelcard.

If there is one thing that is clear from this thread though, it is that
nothing is clear!

The problem is the use of terminology. An Oyster PAYG cap is not a
travelcard. You can't assume that anything that applies to
travelcards applies to capped PAYG.

Your argument appeared to be that because you get a discount on
certain travelcards with the railcard, therefore you get the same
discount on capped PAYG (eg buses).

That's equivalent to saying that because you can use National Rail
with a travelcard, you can use National Rail with PAYG.

In the latter case it isn't true, and I don't think it's safe to
assume that the former is true, unless you've done it.

Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

In article
,
MIG wrote:

This is what I am questioning. Do you know it to be the case, ie have
you reached the cap of £2.80 on the Underground and then travelled on
a bus for free?

No, but I am not sure what the relevance would be. I have never made
similar journeys with regards the £4.30 non-discounted cap either, but
that does not make me doubt that it applies either.

Besides, if I had tested out the situation I was asking about I would
know the answer and not have needed to come on here and ask the question!

Your argument appeared to be that because you get a discount on
certain travelcards with the railcard, therefore you get the same
discount on capped PAYG (eg buses).

I am not sure how you got that impression, but that has never been my
argument. At no point have I ever thought or suggested that the
discounted price cap is the same as, or carries the same benefits as, a
Travelcard.

My assumption is only that the railcard discounted Oyster tube cap
applies to the same forms of transport and routes as the equivalent
non-discounted Oyster tube cap. No more, and more importantly no less.

That's equivalent to saying that because you can use National Rail
with a travelcard, you can use National Rail with PAYG.

Which is why I never said anything of the sort. I really am sorry if I
was not clear enough and somehow confused you about what I was saying.
But I am really not sure what I said wrong causing you to think I was
saying that when no one else came to that opinion.

I only made mention of Travelcards to use as an analogy regarding bus
travel being included. It would make no sense to me to claim that the
Oyster cap would not include bus travel because it was bought with a
railcard discount when the same logic would also mean a railcard
discounted Travelcard should not include bus travel either. Yet it does.

Maybe I was just over-explaining myself by doing so? In hindsight I
certainly regret making any reference to it.

The basis for believing that bus travel is included under the discounted
cap though is not that analogy but that it is a discounted version of
the tube cap. Not a separate product nor one with any special
exemptions on bus travel.

The only reason I would have to doubt its inclusion is to assume that
TfL were incompetent in their literature and forgot to make any
reference to that difference between the discounted and non-discounted
versions. Possibly naively, but I will give them a bit more credit than
that.

But just to be clear, forget any reference I have made to Travelcards as
they are nothing to do with my question. Basically all I am asking is
what happens if the first four journeys are made by bus*.

I do admit though that I did make the assumption, without any factual
basis, that the discounted cap would not be applied to bus travel only.

Michael.

* Although originally I said three journeys as I forgot the Oyster fare
had gone down to 90p last year.

Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

On 25 Feb, 00:32, Michael wrote:
My assumption is only that the railcard discounted Oyster tube cap
applies to the same forms of transport and routes as the equivalent
non-discounted Oyster tube cap. *No more, and more importantly no less.

Ah, but until now it's been impossible to reach a tube cap without
also exceeding the £3 bus cap. Thus we don't know whether the tube cap
by definition included bus travel, or if it was just a de facto
situation.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

On Feb 25, 1:08*am, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 25 Feb, 00:32, Michael wrote:

My assumption is only that the railcard discounted Oyster tube cap
applies to the same forms of transport and routes as the equivalent
non-discounted Oyster tube cap. *No more, and more importantly no less..

Ah, but until now it's been impossible to reach a tube cap without
also exceeding the £3 bus cap. Thus we don't know whether the tube cap
by definition included bus travel, or if it was just a de facto
situation.

Or put it another way, there is no non-discounted Oyster tube cap to
be equivalent to. At least, is there any non-discounted cap defined
anywhere that refers to "Underground only" and includes buses (not
that there would be any point)?

My money is on the cap being £3 if buses are used either before or
after the Underground. Or conceivably even £3 plus £2.80 if you use
enough of each mode of transport in enough zones (would still be a
discount compared with the normal caps and travelcards).

When is this going to be tested? I am too crusty for a railcard.

Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

On 25 Feb, 08:48, MIG wrote:
When is this going to be tested? *I am too crusty for a railcard.

I have one, and as luck would have it my monthly season runs out in a
couple of days. I'm thinking the first thing to try is 4 bus journeys
(after 9.30am, just to be sure), then tube?

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

On 25 Feb, 13:33, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 25 Feb, 08:48, MIG wrote:

When is this going to be tested? *I am too crusty for a railcard.

I have one, and as luck would have it my monthly season runs out in a
couple of days. I'm thinking the first thing to try is 4 bus journeys
(after 9.30am, just to be sure), then tube?

This is becoming a real cliffhanger. I can't wait ...

Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

Mr Thant wrote:
On 25 Feb, 08:48, MIG wrote:
When is this going to be tested? I am too crusty for a railcard.

I have one, and as luck would have it my monthly season runs out in a
couple of days. I'm thinking the first thing to try is 4 bus journeys
(after 9.30am, just to be sure), then tube?

Good ol' U Thant. Not only do you give us news but also conduct valuable
scientific experiments on our behalf. I wouldn't have the patience myself.
--
Michael Hoffman

Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

Well, I have had the theory tested and the answer is that the £2.80 cap
also applies to bus only travel. The first three buses were 90p each,
the fourth cost 10p bringing it up to the zone 2-6 cap. All subsequent
travel by tube, bus, and Overground was free.

My assumption was wrong then, and I am slightly surprised by that.

London Buses must lose out if someone only travels by bus, which is not
uncommon if you need to get around south London, as the revenue that
they used to receive from those passengers will now also be shared with
the tube, Overground, DLR, and NR companies.

Although it does fit in with the claim of the Oyster cap being 50p less
than the equivalent Travelcard. Although in this case it is more like
27p less as they applied the discount to the 50p-less fare.

But I would have though the system would have been more sophisticted
than to allow a national rail discount on bus travel, which is
effectively what happens.

Michael.

Oyster PAYG cap with railcard
 

On Feb 27, 8:25*pm, Michael wrote:
Well, I have had the theory tested and the answer is that the £2.80 cap
also applies to bus only travel. *The first three buses were 90p each,
the fourth cost 10p bringing it up to the zone 2-6 cap. *All subsequent
travel by tube, bus, and Overground was free.

That's more generous than I had bet on. Thanks for the update.